discreteUser: Zoloft and Valium

[discreteUser]

Hey guys, how are you?

 

I've been treating for OCD for years, going in and out ADs because of the unbearable side effects I get from them. In my last three years I used paxil (for 2 years) and clomipramine (for 1 year, this last). I tried to switch to zoloft, but after noticing tinnitus I decide to avoid any AD and try to deal with my OCD and anxiety in more natural ways (yoga, meditation, therapy, exercising).

 

Problem is: 2 months have been passed after I quit ADs and I feel like **** these days. I never felt this depressed before, I was not a depressed guy and I entered ADs because of my OCD.

 

I was using 150mg of clomipramine and now I wonder about how many time the brain needs to readapt to return to the state it had without any treatment. But I am full of doubts regarding it: 1-) is it really going to readapt/recover? 2-) how long is a good guess to wait before giving up on my new no-med routine? 3-) I'm feeling apathetic and I don't feel pleasure these days in nothing... I don't have the will to do things, even sex or playing games, or singing as I always loved. Are this 'normal' symptoms or I'm even more ****ed than the expected for the standard withdrawal?

 

Any light on this would be very, VERY appreciated!

Edited June 26, 2018 by Songbird
masked expletive

[Songbird]

Hi discreteUser, welcome to SA.  The symptoms you describe are common in AD withdrawal.

 

On 6/25/2018 at 12:04 PM, discreteUser said:

In my last three years I used paxil (for 2 years) and clomipramine (for 1 year, this last).

Problem is: 2 months have been passed after I quit ADs 

I was using 150mg of clomipramine

 

Please create a signature containing this information.  For example:

Prior to 2015 - various ADs

2015-2016 Paxil

2017 clomipramine 150mg

2018 Jan to March clomipramine 150mg

2018 April stopped clomipramine

 

You can edit your signature here: edit your signature in Account Settings.  Are you currently taking any other meds?  If so, please include these in your signature also.

 

If you still have some clomipramine, you could consider reinstating a very small dose to see if it helps to alleviate your symptoms.  (By very small dose I mean, e.g. one eighth to one quarter of your full dose.)  After two months off, suddenly restarting a large dose could be a shock to the system, and cause adverse effects.  It's best to make any dose changes small so that your system can adjust more easily.  For more more information, see:  about reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

If you decide to reinstate, you will need a way to measure the small doses accurately.  Some options are:  getting commercial liquid, making your own liquid, using a digital scale.  For more information, see:

how to make a liquid from tablets or capsules

using a digital scale to measure doses

 

Another option is to ride it out off the AD, if withdrawal is bearable and you are coping okay.  There is no way to predict a time frame for recovery, but it tends to be months to years, rather than weeks.  The brain has a lot of readjusting and rebalancing work to do.  Here are some topics you may find helpful:

the windows and waves pattern of stabilization

are we there yet? how long is withdrawal going to take?

 

Please post all your updates and questions about your situation here in your introduction topic.

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Songbird
add info

[discreteUser]

Hey guys,

There is something not clear on the topics of MJ I read here, or then maybe controversal.

 

Do you think that MJ (indica or sativa) would make you have some steps back on the overall AD withdrawal progress? Or MJ can only exacerbate some of the symptoms a few days later its use (not messing with the progress of not using ADs)?

I miss the good highs a LOT, and I stopped because I had some panic attacks while taking it with clomipramine (150mg). Now I'm 2 months off ADs and I wonder how does it feel without ADs, and if will mess with my withdrawal.

What is your opinion on this?

[ChessieCat]

There are many existing topics on this site.  You can use the site search function or use a search engine and add survivingantidepressants.org to your search term.

 

If you search for CBD or marijuana or cannabis you can find existing discussions and members' experiences.

[discreteUser]

hey songbid

this third month is being tough! with this, I am on a dilemma and I have some doubts that might help me getting off the fence:

1-) is the recovery usually longer when a method of fast tapper (3 weeks)/cold turkey is adopted? can it be MUCH slower due to this method?

2-) I would not do something extreme, but my experience these days have been awful with a anhedonia + anxiety combo... with this, I Always wonder if its worth waiting the time after I CTed (now I am almost 3 months off). But I also consider reinstating: is it risky doing this with 3 months?

3-) if I reinstate, can I use other drug like prozac (people say its easier to get off it) instead of clomipramine (that I've been using before switching to zoloft and using this last one for only 2 weeks)?

[discreteUser]

this third month off drugs is being tough! with this, I am on a dilemma and I have some doubts that might help me getting off the fence:

1-) is the recovery usually longer when a method of fast tapper (3 weeks)/cold turkey is adopted? can it be MUCH slower due to this method?

2-) I would not do something extreme, but my experience these days have been awful with a anhedonia + anxiety combo... with this, I Always wonder if its worth waiting the time after I CTed (now I am almost 3 months off). But I also consider reinstating: is it risky doing this with 3 months?

3-) if I reinstate, can I use other drug like prozac (people say its easier to get off it) instead of clomipramine (that I've been using before switching to zoloft and using this last one for only 2 weeks)?

[ChessieCat]

On 6/26/2018 at 10:43 AM, Songbird said:

Please create a signature containing this information.  For example:

Prior to 2015 - various ADs

2015-2016 Paxil

2017 clomipramine 150mg

2018 Jan to March clomipramine 150mg

2018 April stopped clomipramine

 

You can edit your signature here: edit your signature in Account Settings.  Are you currently taking any other meds?  If so, please include these in your signature also.

 

The mods need this information so they can see your drug history at a glance.

[discreteUser]

sorry

just updated now

[Carmie]

Hi DiscreteUser, 

 

How are you doing?💚

[discreteUser]

I need help... I might have made a big mistake raising Zoloft at my Valium taper

 

One week ago I raised Zoloft from 100mg to 150mg. First two days I was feeling good but the following days were tough.

I raised it with the approval of my doctor because my intrusive thoughts were unbearable 2 weeks after my last V cut (from 0.4 to 0.3mg) as I was previously diagnosed with severe OCD. Now I feel like ****, anxious to do anything different than sitting and doing nothing or some yoga, and depressed af losing my feelings of hope.

I don't know what is my best option from now on, my doctor said that the raise can't do that and now I don't know if I wait until the therapeutic effect comes in or if I go back to 100mg of Zoloft. I am also fearing losing my job and I am considering updosing Valium. I am a mess these days and even my parents are feeling frustrated and desperate.

To be more clear, I didn't trust what he said and probably he just told this for me to chill. Actually, raising Zoloft was a choice of mine even before talking to him, I just took validation to not make this by myself.

The thing is, my OCD is pretty rough in my baseline and I already had problems with it fully sober. As I see that people that never had OCD can have it strong while tapering benzos, I can have an idea about the effect on people that already are prone to that.

And actually, my intrusive thoughts were unbearable to the point that my life stopped. 150mg or more is an old recommendations for my ocd that I was pretty against to take as I became very "anti-pill" with all this road. I think it's already helping with this and my hope is that after stabilizing 150mg I will be strong enough to face the remaining of my benzo taper.

I need to know if there are success cases on increasing SSRI helping with the benzo taper, I want to know if it's safe to have hope or if raising an SSRI in this context is the recipe for a mess. Changing my Zoloft from 50mg to 100mg helped me so much, I was hopeful that at least my intrusive thoughts could be well controlled using ADs.

 

What is the best strategy for now? I do intend to stop Zoloft in the future, but my intrusive thoughts were making me nuts to the point that I was OK to postpone my 'pill-free' regimen. So I am not in a rush to stop Zoloft, I just want to feel fine and functional and I wonder if things will stabilize with all this. I am afraid of going back to 100mg and have again the storm of intrusive thoughts. Do you have any success story with raising SSRIs helping on quiting benzos?

Any light on this would be much appreciated.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by ChessieCat
added topic title

[ChessieCat]

Please add the date that you started Zoloft (see red font below).

 

Please condense your current drug signature details and add a summary of clomipramine and other drugs.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

All the regimen below have also 100mg of Zoloft:
Apr/20 - 2.5mg V
May/20 - 1.25mg V
May/20 (end of the month) - 1.0mg V
Jun/20 - 0.75mg V
03/08/2020 - 0.70
24/08/2020 - 0.60
22/09/2020 - 0.50
06/10/2020 - 0.40
03/11/2020 - 0.30
16/11/2020 - 150mg Zoloft + 0.30 Valium

sx: Strange burning in points inside my head near the right temple, tinnitus, anxiety and intense intrusive thoughts.

 

Can be changed to:

 

Zoloft 2020;  date started here please, 100mg PLUS

Valium 2020:  Apr, 2.5mg; May, 1.25mg; end May, 1.0mg; Jun,  0.75mg; 3 Aug, 0.70; 24 Aug, 0.60; 22 Sep, 0.50; 6 Oct, 0.40;  3 Nov,  0.30

Current:  16 Nov 2020 - 150mg Zoloft + 0.30mg Valium

 

We do not need the symptoms.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by ChessieCat

[Altostrata]

You are tapering Valium in a way we would not recommend. Our guideline is 10% decreases per month. You are making decreases far in excess of 10% at a step.

 

Consequently, you have been getting withdrawal symptoms. It's possible your intrusive thoughts are caused by withdrawal and increasing Valium slightly would stop them. No, we do not recommend increasing the SSRI to assist with benzo withdrawal. That makes no sense at all.

 

You got adverse effects from Zoloft, yet you and your doctor decided to increase Zoloft to treat those intrusive thoughts. If you increased Zoloft and find you have adverse effects from the increase, common sense would suggest you decrease the Zoloft so you don't have those adverse effects. Adverse effects are dosage-related.

 

This is a site for going off drugs. We do not treat intrusive thoughts here. It's your psychiatrist's responsibility to balance your drug cocktail, not ours.

[ChessieCat]

16 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

No, we do not recommend increasing the SSRI to assist with benzo withdrawal. That makes no sense at all.

 

 

Please see this topic:

 

taking-multiple-psych-drugs-which-drug-to-taper-first

 

[discreteUser]

15 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You are tapering Valium in a way we would not recommend. Our guideline is 10% decreases per month. You are making decreases far in excess of 10% at a step.

 

Consequently, you have been getting withdrawal symptoms. It's possible your intrusive thoughts are caused by withdrawal and increasing Valium slightly would stop them. No, we do not recommend increasing the SSRI to assist with benzo withdrawal. That makes no sense at all.

 

You got adverse effects from Zoloft, yet you and your doctor decided to increase Zoloft to treat those intrusive thoughts. If you increased Zoloft and find you have adverse effects from the increase, common sense would suggest you decrease the Zoloft so you don't have those adverse effects. Adverse effects are dosage-related.

 

This is a site for going off drugs. We do not treat intrusive thoughts here. It's your psychiatrist's responsibility to balance your drug cocktail, not ours.

 

Hey Altostrata,

 

Thank you for your view. It happens that I wasn't following SA guidelines as I wasn't active until my most recent posts.

 

Do you have in mind any dosage to updose regarding the increase in Valium?

 

I only raised Zoloft because before meds my OCD was rough and I was ignoring for a while the suggestion of my doc to raise to 150mg. I just gave up my resistance to raise because things were unbearable and the Ashton Manual says something about the obsessions responding to SSRI in the withdrawal/taper the same way they respond without the taper.

If you increased Zoloft and find you have adverse effects from the increase, common sense would suggest you decrease the Zoloft so you don't have those adverse effects.

 

Yes, but isn't that normal regarding SSRIs to make symptoms worse before making them better? I am not saying I am pro-pills/SSRI or stuff, and I intend to be free from them in the medium/long term, but if I don't control my OCD I am afraid I wont be able to taper my Valium anymore.

 

We do not treat intrusive thoughts here. It's your psychiatrist's responsibility to balance your drug cocktail, not ours.

 

Yes, I do know that. I am just reporting intrusive thoughts as a symptom hoping that anyone here found something useful once antidepressants are part of the main treatment for OCD. As we know well, psychs are rarelly well versed on wd symptoms of those drugs. I have no intention to buy anything someone tells me here without thinking for myself neither thinking of someone here as a doctor. I am just looking for opinions regarding the drug regimen.

 

Sorry if I used here the wrong way, I am just in despair but I totally understand it's not your responsibility on anything.

[Altostrata]

33 minutes ago, discreteUser said:

Ashton Manual says something about the obsessions responding to SSRI in the withdrawal/taper the same way they respond without the taper.

 

Ashton later recanted her recommendation of SSRI treatment.

 

33 minutes ago, discreteUser said:

Yes, but isn't that normal regarding SSRIs to make symptoms worse before making them better?

 

"Normal" in the sense that it's very common for prescribers to ignore adverse effects and tell people dumb things like this to get them to keep taking the drugs though the adverse effects degrade quality of life and probably cause neurobiological upset.

 

There are "obsessive thoughts" and there are "obsessive thoughts". We often see people develop intrusive thoughts as an aspect of withdrawal syndrome. Generally, these are relieved when withdrawal syndrome goes away. They are not a psychiatric disorder, they are withdrawal symptoms.

 

Since you developed this symptom after decreasing from 0.40mg to 0.30mg Valium, an increase to 0.35mg may be sufficient.

 

BTW When people want to go off a drug combination, we generally recommend going off the benzo last.

 

See Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

Tips for tapering off sertraline (Zoloft)

 

Also, please be aware that if you want to go off psychiatric drugs, you will need to learn non-drug coping skills for any symptoms that arise, be they withdrawal symptoms or your original habits of thought. See

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Neuro-emotions

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

 

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

 

Shame, guilt, regret, and self-criticism

 

[discreteUser]

Thank you very much for the references, I will check the links to cope better with all this.

 

Two doubts: until how many days with the new dose (150mg of Z in my case) is safe to go back to 100mg? Will I have to taper from 150 to 100mg starting today?

 

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Ashton later recanted her recommendation of SSRI treatment.

 

Mind sharing a source on this if you have it somehow easy? I just found the post that ChessieCat presented and all I have found is the 2011 supplement.

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, discreteUser said:

Mind sharing a source on this if you have it somehow easy? I just found the post that ChessieCat presented and all I have found is the 2011 supplement.

 

Possibly here:

 

ashton-and-beyond-in-benzo-tapering

 

[Altostrata]

20 hours ago, discreteUser said:

Two doubts: until how many days with the new dose (150mg of Z in my case) is safe to go back to 100mg? Will I have to taper from 150 to 100mg starting today?

 

It's best to go back as soon as possible. Your nervous system will adapt to the new dosage within a month.

 

See

 

[discreteUser]

I was stupid. I ended up buying the authority of my doctor and getting hopeful seeing the testimonies at patient.info. My life was a mess and I took a desperate measure of keeping the Zoloft at 150mg.

 

I really regret it. It's been more than 6 weeks and I don't see a real benefit to keep it. They say that for OCD patients the therapeutic effect comes within 8 to 12 weeks, but I don't care anymore. I want to go back to 100mg and maybe start tapering it.

 

Please, sorry for being stubborn. As I didn't notice big changes, do you think it's too late to go back to 100mg without tapering? Will there be a big shock considering the time frame? I just want to make my life liveable.

[discreteUser]

I don't know what I should do. I took 100mg yesterday and then again today.

 

Overall health feels better but intrusive thoughts are stronger today and I am starting to feel uncomfortable with my thoughts. Maybe I should go to 125mg before? Or I better apply the 10% rule?