fernando70: Withdrawal from vortioxetine, don't know what to do

[fernando70]

My history is as follows: i begun with paroxetine on jan 2002 for social anxiety, I left 6 o 7 seven months after, tappering, and i don't remember wd symtoms (maybe emotional syntoms, like easy crying, but nothing more). On 2003 jan begin paroxetine again and didn't wanted to teake it off again: the life seemed more brilliant. And was well until 2005 when i decided to don't take anymore. I don't remember how i done it, i think i tappered very fast, i remember the classis brain zaps, maybe flu symtoms, but nothing worse on the months after. I begin with EMDR for 2 years, and at the end, on 2008 i decided to take escitalopram, you know the easy solution. The psichologist said then the EMDR has finished if i prerer to go by escitalopram. On 2012 change again to paroxetine. Don't remember bad WD symtoms. I remember symtoms of drowsiness and sleepiness through the morning sometimes, i suposse it was when i decided to take more dose, and return to low dose again, several times on that years, but now i cannot confirm if that crisis correlates with ups and downs on dose. I suppose yes. On January 2015 i begun Pristiq. Always the standard dose: Paroxetine 20, escitalopram 10 Pristig 50. And then on april 2022 i read about Vortioxetine, and wanted to change. It was very easy to leave Pristiq instead Brintellix. Don't remember any WD. And then i was taking it on intervals i decided to don't take AD no more, and times i decided that i needed and i reintroduced it again. On August i try mirtazapine: too sleepy, at the end of august return to brintellix (sometimes only 5 mg, beacuse of nausea). Then always i take it off, i've have sleepniness through all day, which it gert better with taking again Brintellix. 2 or 3 times the same. I didn't know NEVER, that drowsiness was for not being taking brintellix. I discover that NOW. And the last round: on 30 dic i decided all my troubles with depression and anxiety was beacuse alcohol on weekends: i left alcohol and brintellix at the same time. Ad here i am: more than 1 month with extreme sleepiness through the morning and all day. I ask the urinary doctor: 'you have nothing on the urinary, go to the endocrine. This one said i've got nothing with cortisol or adrenal or hormonal system, go to the neumologist to see if it's sleep apnea. I'm wainting for this to have an sleep analysis, but she said that it all seem normal. I read this web, and now i know whats happening, and what happened every time i tappered off while on AD all this years: Extreme sleepiness about abstinence of AD. This friyday i took 5 mg brintellix at 12 am, and another 5 mg on 20 pm. Yesterday morning i took 5 mg, horrible nausea all the morning. And here i am, asking you if this is the right way to reinstall brintellix: taking 5 mg every day, till stabilization and then take an optimal plan of tappering off, little by little. 

[Altostrata]

Welcome, @fernando70

 

As I understand it, you have been going on and off antidepressants since 2002. You also used to drink on the weekends.

 

Then you went on and off Brintellix (vortioxetine).

 

On 2/4/2023 at 11:37 PM, fernando70 said:

Ad here i am: more than 1 month with extreme sleepiness through the morning and all day.

 

Has this sleepiness been your major problem, having gone off vortioxetine?

 

To help us out, follow these instructions Please summarize your drug and withdrawal history in your signature You may need to use a computer to do this.

[fernando70]

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Welcome, @fernando70

 

As I understand it, you have been going on and off antidepressants since 2002. You also used to drink on the weekends.

 

Then you went on and off Brintellix (vortioxetine).

 

 

Has this sleepiness been your major problem, having gone off vortioxetine?

 

To help us out, follow these instructions Please summarize your drug and withdrawal history in your signature You may need to use a computer to do this.

Yes, thats right. I began on vortioxetine on april 2022, tappering from Pristiq. And maybe 4 or 5 times on and off. First one on july cause i though i was ok (no withdrawal at all), 15 days of, then 15 on. Then change to mirtazapine, and zero vortioxetine (no withdrawall), 20 days, and because bad dreams, change again to vortioxetine on 20 august. Then, more or less every 15 days on and off: i'm ok: off, y get astenic, on. And the on 30 dic off, and at two weeks sleepiness extreme since now. 

Yes always drank on weekends. If any weekend didn't drink the sleepiness was there too, and a little depression.

Only symtom SLEEPINESS or brain fog.....i don't know how to explain: it's as your head weights more, eyes want to close, but if i try to sleep i can't. Only if i hear meditacion videos maybe sometimes i get sleep.

I've been thinking it maybe about extreme stiffness on neck, probably osteoarthtitis, and sure bad possition (all day with the smartphone on left had and head forward). The neck sounds: cloc cloc cloc, every time i move it. The neck pain in me is chronic. I've always had problems: headache, but not sleepiness, which i've read it can be a syntom of pain neck.

[fernando70]

Only syntom sleepiness, yes. I think that could be the sign that my problem is not from withdrawall, and it could be another reason. But not endocrin, not apnea, ......the only things it could be are AD cold turkey and cervical pain.

I went on cold turkey because the other times i left brintellix it happen nothing. I was always wainting for the brain zaps, ant thought that if there weren't zaps...there was no withdrawal. But after two weeks...sleepiness. And i associate NOW the other times on sleepiness by the time i was off brintellix.

That sleepiness has been on me sometimes in the last 10 years (i thought it must be when sometimes i tried to up Pristiq to 100, and then turn back to 50 cold turkey), but the stiffness on my neck HAS BEEN WITH ME TOO ALL THE TIME. I couldn't say now if it's about one or the other thing.

For instance, yesterday i was making some streching on neck, some Tens, and some heat, and i was almost ok yesterday.....but ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡it could be the reinstall of 5 mg since friday!!!!!! It's very very difficult to know. 

That why i said I don't know what to do, i don't know what to think.

[Altostrata]

Quote

From 1 yo 20 august on mirtazapine 7,5 or 15 , Them back to Brintillex again and on and off every 15 Days. 

30 dec 2022 off cold turkey.

 

Please explain what this means. Were you taking mirtazapine every day? You were taking Brintellix every 15 days? What dosage?

 

What did you quit cold turkey on 30 December 2022?

 

On 2/4/2023 at 11:37 PM, fernando70 said:

I read this web, and now i know whats happening, and what happened every time i tappered off while on AD all this years: Extreme sleepiness about abstinence of AD.

 

Overwhelming fatigue would not be an unusual antidepressant withdrawal symptom.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 11:37 PM, fernando70 said:

This friyday i took 5 mg brintellix at 12 am, and another 5 mg on 20 pm. Yesterday morning i took 5 mg, horrible nausea all the morning. And here i am, asking you if this is the right way to reinstall brintellix: taking 5 mg every day, till stabilization and then take an optimal plan of tappering off, little by little. 

 

Has the fatigue changed over this last week since you reinstated 5mg Brintellix per day?

[fernando70]

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

Please explain what this means. Were you taking mirtazapine every day? You were taking Brintellix every 15 days? What dosage?

Mirtazapine from 1 to 20 august, 15 mg, everyday at bedtime. That days i wasn't on Brintellix.

When i took Brintellix, and because of nausea, i took only 5 mg. Not always i could rise to 10 mg.

 

What did you quit cold turkey on 30 December 2022?

Brintellix 10 mg.

 

 

Overwhelming fatigue would not be an unusual antidepressant withdrawal symptom.

 

 

Has the fatigue changed over this last week since you reinstated 5mg Brintellix per day?

No, till yesterday thursday (i was since friday before). But onthursday i do a lot of tens, heat, go to masaggist, and streching neckm exercisses.

 

[fernando70]

And today again a little brain fog. Only was well yesterday.

[Altostrata]

Quote

Them back to Brintillex again and on and off every 15 Days. 

 

You took mirtazapine for 15 days and then Brintellix for 15 days, over a year?

 

I am having trouble following your drug history. What's clear is that you've made many drug changes over more than 22 years.

 

Given that, if my your major withdrawal symptom is sleepiness, I would count myself lucky. Suggest you stop changing drugs for 6 months and let your system settle down. Whatever you're taking now, take at the same time each day, don't skip doses and don't drink.

 

Many people find these to be helpful:

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

You might try a low dose of one at a time to see what it does for you.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

[fernando70]

12 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

You took mirtazapine for 15 days and then Brintellix for 15 days, over a year?

 

I am having trouble following your drug history. What's clear is that you've made many drug changes over more than 22 years.

 

Given that, if my your major withdrawal symptom is sleepiness, I would count myself lucky. Suggest you stop changing drugs for 6 months and let your system settle down. Whatever you're taking now, take at the same time each day, don't skip doses and don't drink.

 

Many people find these to be helpful:

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

You might try a low dose of one at a time to see what it does for you.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

Well i'll try to explain better. Sorry about my english. I speak spanish.

It could be said that i was since 2002 taking paroxetine without any problems; i left it 2 o 3 times tapering, with minor simtoms, basically brain zaps, and little flu simtoms. No problem. In January 2015 i change to Pristiq, very well tolerated, less adverse effects (no sexual disfuntion at all). And in april 2022 it's when i begin to do wrong things:  i tapper Pristiq a few days/weeks and at the same time i begin with vortioxetine 10 mg. No withdrawal from pristiq at all. In July 2022 i see i'm ok and that i don't need more AD. Left the brintellix, and carried with me a pill always por possible withdrawall: no needed never: no WD at all. At the 15/20 of july i decided i need a boost, and begin again to take brintellix (don't remember if it was 5 or 10 mg). Then at the beggining of august (maybe 7th augist) i read about mirtazapine, that is better tolerated if you drink alcohol (only beer in my case), and begin taking 15 mg at night, and CT of brintellix without no WD problems. I sleep more than 8 or 9 hours, but there were some weird dreams i couldn't tolerate. About 25 august CT of mirtazapine and reinstall 5 or 10 mg of brintellix. And here is when i begin to alternate (more or less) 15 days on, with 15 days off, more or less!!!!! i don't remember well, it could be 30/30 or 20/20 days. And i remember periods of sleepiness on that months (september, october, november) that, now, i believe that they could be in the days without brintellix. Then on 30 december i decided to left and never take AD no more. No WD at all on the first week, no brain zaps...nothing. But on 7 january it begin the sleepiness at daytime. Until friday 3 february that i discover it could be WD about CT of brintellix, and reinstall it 5 mg. Now i'm better since thursday 9 febreary.

That's my history.

[Altostrata]

12 hours ago, fernando70 said:

i read about mirtazapine, that is better tolerated if you drink alcohol (only beer in my case), and begin taking 15 mg at night

 

Never heard of this.

 

What we see here is that a history of going on and off psychotropic drugs -- psychiatric, recreational, prescribed, non-prescribed, legal, illegal, gray market, alcohol, adaptogenics, etc. -- causes nervous systems to be hypersensitive to other drugs and sometimes even foods and supplements.

 

You have been going on and off psychotropics since 2001. Given your history, I would count myself lucky if sleepiness were my only withdrawal symptom.

 

If I were you, I'd arrange to take time off so you can sleep when you feel like sleeping. We have seen that if people don't interfere with the nervous system repairing itself, recovery is very gradual, over many months or years. See 

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

The importance of recognizing you're feeling good

 

Many people find fish oil and magnesium supplements helpful, see

 

https://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/

 

https://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

You might try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you. Please let us know how you’re doing.

[fernando70]

I think i'm ok. Don't know and never will....if it was a case of WD or simply muy neck problems. But there's little sleepiness on daytime now. I think every time my neck is more relaxed everything is better.

I'll keep on with 5 mg of vortioxetine, and in 5 or 6 months i'll decided what to do. I keep my Omega3, VitD, magnessium, complex B, nicotinamide riboside, aswhaganda, ptersotilbene, zinc, vit C and NAC. I'll drink a few beers on weekends, nothing important, and i'll see. 

 

By the way the issue with alcohol and mirtazapine i read was the history in David HEaly web, about that girl who thought that every ISRS acts on 5HTP3 receptor and that is what makes craving. Mirtazapine don't act on 5htp3 and she saw that there were no cravings. I've seen Vortioxetine is an antagonist of 5thp3 so, it could be it has the same effect as mirtazapine: no cravings. You can read it:

https://rxisk.org/driven-to-drink-antidepressants-and-cravings-for-alcohol/

[Altostrata]

Strongly recommend you avoid drinking alcohol while coping with tapering and withdrawal. You can find all kinds of dumb theories on the Interwebs.