alex01: 40 months PAWS- paroxetine

[alex01]

I would like to describe my situation after 40 months of withdrawal from paroxetine.
 First, a brief summary: I used paroxetine (pondera-eurofarma) from 2012 to 2019, from 20 to 40 mg.  There were numerous side effects, many of them serious, and the drug was losing effect frequently.  I decided to stop using when my psychiatrist wanted to increase the dosage even more, as well as putting me on two other drugs.  Between January and March 2020, I underwent a 3-month fast tapering of 40 to 0 mg, due to the psychiatrist's erroneous guidance.  The next two years (mid 2020 to mid 2022) were hell, and I still didn't know I was on withdrawal.  Severe insomnia, out of control irritation like I've never felt, strong physical and muscle weakness, among other severe symptoms.

 

 Since the beginning of 2023 I have been using magnesium and omega 3 (with a higher concentration of DHA).  Compared to my worst withdrawal years, I've already seen significant improvements in some important symptoms:
 Irritability- 50/60% better
 Insomnia 50/60% better
 Physical and muscular weakness - 30% better.

 

 Currently, I complete 40 months clean, with the following symptoms:
 Chronic fatigue/tiredness- Every day, with fluctuations throughout the day.  My energy levels are definitely lower than expected for a 37 year old.  I have been able to work, but I can only manage half the productivity I had before the start of PAWS, and even then it takes me longer.  As a result, I had a drop in income.
 Physical activities - I have little strength, I feel like an old man.  Knowing this is going to last a few years is frustrating.
 Low Motivation- Missing my junkie/paroxetine years.  I have little motivation these days.
 Worry and negative thoughts several times throughout the day.
 Auditory hypersensitivity - It has caused me significant suffering.  Everyday noises, such as the noise of the neighbor's air conditioning, people listening loudly to some video/audio on the cell phone next to me, someone washing dishes at home, make me very irritated.  I've been sleeping on the sofa in the living room because I can't ignore the noise of the neighbor's air conditioning, which is above my room.
 Visual hypersensitivity - New but discrete symptom.  I have noticed that I have been "blind" longer after looking at something very bright, this has been happening during the day.
 Recently I started to feel mild body aches again.
 A few months ago I had severe episodes of itching all over my body, but for now they have passed.
 I really miss the motivation I had before, and my physical ability from before.  I am hopeful that I will get them back.
 

Edited June 29, 2023 by manymoretodays
name to topic title

[Altostrata]

Welcome, @alex01

 

Yes, paroxetine is a very difficult drug to go off and you have protracted withdrawal from it. The good news is you've seen some improvement.

 

How has your symptom pattern changed in the last 3 months?

[alex01]

 

Hi @Altostrata, thanks for your reply.

 

 In my first post here on the site, I made a long description of my case:

I believe it was too long, so I made this post, more summarized and updated.

 

 Patients have no idea what they are getting into by starting antidepressants. And psychiatrists have no idea what protracted withdrawal is. Or else they know, but they don't want to admit it so as not to lose their bread and butter! In the first two years, looking for different professionals to try to treat the hell that was happening to me, not a single psychiatrist or psychologist mentioned protracted withdrawal. The first person to alert me was a professional trained in pharmacology and phytotherapy.

 

 In the last 3 months there has been very little change in my pattern of symptoms. But over a longer period, like the last 6 months, I can see changes. I believe my irritability has improved a little more. Also, I'm on my second episode of what I think would be a window. For the second time, the following happens: During 2/3 weeks, my physical strength increases, my sexual function improves, I can sleep earlier and wake up earlier, my bowels are looser and work better in the morning, my whole metabolism seems to improve . Then, for 3/4 months, I lose a lot of physical strength, I can only sleep after 2 a.m. and I wake up later, sexual function worsens, constipation. Possibly a pattern of windows and waves. I'm on my second window in 6 months.

 

 Overall, looking objectively, I have seen improvements in some important symptoms (irritability, insomnia).

Others, such as auditory hypersensitivity, have not improved at all yet. 

 

The lack of motivation, low energy, inability to do physical activities, end up leaving me in a constant state of sadness, without much to look forward to in the future.

 

 But I keep my hopes up. I used this drug for 8 years, and I noticed that my brain was becoming more indifferent to things and emotions, as well as various side effects were developing. I remember a video by Dr Peter Breggin where he talks about this.

Maybe my brain needs similar time to get back to normal.

 

 Thank you very much for creating the site. If it wasn't for this site, I wouldn't have any treatment during the withdrawal. Magnesium has been of great help. Reading success stories has also been important.

[Altostrata]

A little improvement is a good sign. See

What is withdrawal syndrome? 
  
The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

[DancingBee]

Hi @alex01

 

Just wanted to say hello and welcome. I'm sorry you've had to endure all those symptoms for so long but glad there's been improvement. I believe that will only continue.

 

Hang in there,

Dancing Bee

[alex01]

Hello @Altostrata , @DancingBee and friends

 

 My significant improvement in sleep and irritability came shortly after I started magnesium approximately nine months ago.  In the last six months, I have not noticed any improvements.

 

 It even seems to me that in the last two months the brain fog has gotten worse, my clarity of reasoning has been very compromised (in waves throughout the day). Hearing sensitivity (which is a lot like misophonia) has been punishing me since the beginning of withdrawal. Fatigue comes in moderate or strong waves throughout the day.

 

But I still try to keep my diet healthy and sleep stable.  I'm lucky to be able to work part time a day.  If I had a very demanding job, I would be lost.

 

 Would this stagnation/ lack of improvement of symptoms be what is called "withdrawal normal" ?

 

Is it normal for some symptoms to get worse after 3.5 years of withdrawal (cognitive impairment for example)?

 

Thanks 

[Altostrata]

You took various drugs until February 2023, your period of stabilization has been only 6 months.

 

Paroxetine is a terrible drug for withdrawal syndrome, and it can take a long time to very slowly recover.

[redkite]

HI,

 Your off paroxetine what an achievement, really!! I have cut from 30 ish to 10 ish over 2021/22/23 and its been a terrible slog so for you to be cleen from the bear its self is AMAZING. All the wds you talk of resonate with me and I am still on 10mg and 30th!!!! You will get fanatstic support here and real advise from people who know the score and care. Stay strong. Take care REDkite.

[alex01]

Hi @redkite,

 

Thanks but my life after fast tapering has not been pleasant. I did it under the wrong guidance of my ignorant (and perhaps a little mean) psychiatrist.

If three years ago I had known that it had to be done at a rate of 10% per month, I would never have done a fast tapering. And if I could see what would happen to me, I would only make a 5% reduction per month. I would spend 3, 4 years tapering the drug. Sometimes I dream about how much better I would be if I had done that.

When I found the site, it was already too late for a reinstatement (which I tried and didn't work).

I'm surprised to know that with correct tapering, you are experiencing such problems too. But cold turkey or fast tapering is life-threatening and destroys lives and families. So keep your tapering pace slow so you don't make things worse. 

[alex01]

It's been another 3 months since my last update. I noticed subtle changes. Several symptoms improved a little, others got worse, others remained the same. Overall, I notice a slight change for the better.

 

 The extreme tiredness that set in two to three times a day and lasted for hours is not as strong, it has been more moderate. Except when I sleep poorly, which makes the fatigue intense.
 I still have little physical strength, but I notice that this strength is more stable.  Even though I'm weak, I haven't become extremely weak anymore.
 Sleep remains good, I have been sleeping an average of 5 or 6 hours a night, with the exception of a few days.
 Regarding irritability, it's the same, I remain easily irritable, but sometimes I can control myself.
 I was feeling itchy after taking baths, this symptom improved a little. I can't take cold baths (even in summer) because the itching increases.
 The cognitive impairment/brain fog, which was very strong, seems to have improved a little, I feel like sometimes it's more moderate. It gets a lot worse if I sleep poorly. 
 I started eating yogurt every day, my intestines are considerably more regulated, I would say 50/60% better.  Before, I had constipation for several days and then almost diarrhea.
 Tinnitus and eye floaters seem to have improved a little.

 

 On the other hand, I have been experiencing dizziness more frequently, almost every day, it is a relatively new symptom for me.
 The depression got worse, I had a bad 2 months in that regard.

 

 Misophonia looks the same.  Slight body aches continue.

 

 I've been working little, which on the one hand is good because I'm not managing a lot of things and it's probably good for my recovery, but on the other hand it leaves me constantly worried about my monthly income.

 

 I've been reading the site a lot, and I realized how many times, during my years on paroxetine, I went days without taking the drug, because it had finished and I hadn't returned to the psychiatrist to get new prescriptions.  There were several episodes of brain zaps and nausea during the 8 years of taking the drug, which helped to destroy my brain and worsened my withdrawal.

 

 I also understood how important stability is during withdrawal.  I have been off medication for more than 3 years in total, but I tested some drugs and supplements in low dosages and for a few months in the middle of my withdrawal.  As Altostrata said, my stability time has not even reached 1 year yet.

[zanti]

Hey @alex01! I've spent the last 30 minutes or so reading your story and your symptoms and the similarities between us are indeed striking! You work in IT by any chance? Our personalities and the way we analyze things are very similar.

 

I'm at a loss for words right now, but one thing I want to ask is, have you tried an Omega 3 with more EPA than DHA? DHA is indeed better for the brain, but not for mental distress.EPA is the one used in clinical trials for depressionm and anxiety and proven to be of greater value.

 

Regarding Magnesium, why did you chose the Threonate? Is it better than the Glycinate? Have you tried both?

 

I see your last post in your journal here is almost a year old.How are you now? Have you tried anything else in terms of meds/supplements/diet? I see you go to a nutritionist, have you talked about the keto diet with them?

 

Thank you and I look forward to your reply!

[alex01]

Hi @zanti !

Yes, I think the way we analyze the situation is very similar. In a very mathematical way. When I was a child, I thought about becoming an engineer, but I ended up graduating in the health field. 

 

I read the topics here on the site about DHA and EPA. One of the conclusions I read is that the body naturally transforms EPA into DHA. I haven't tested a higher concentration of EPA yet. In fact, I noticed almost no difference with the omega 3 supplement. I even recently reduced from 1000/500 to 500/250. In other words, from two Now tablets to one, and I didn't feel any difference. 

 

Magnesium, yes, was the only supplement that I clearly felt worked. It helps me relax to sleep, and that's very important. It doesn't always work, some nights I still have insomnia. But I can feel a positive difference. I read that magnesium threonate is one of the easiest forms of magnesium to penetrate the nervous system, so that's why I chose that one. I've never tested glycinate. 

 

I have been stagnant for the last 1 to 2 years. No improvement. I have not found anything that reverses the symptoms I still have. My diet is good. I have been to nutritionists many times trying to do the best I can in terms of diet. One thing I have noticed is that low carbohydrate consumption greatly worsens my energy and physical strength. I eat complex carbohydrates, like oatmeal. 

 

Thanks for your interest. Take care !

[zanti]

@alex01Recovery from CT and fast tapers is brutal, rough, hell.You are a very strong person!!! It's a bummer that paroxetine reinstatement did not work, but it is expected.I also had a similar situation in 2015 when I did a very fast taper and ended up in the most horrible state: brutal headaches, insomnia, mania, akathisia, irritability, amazing aggressivity.At the time I was on 20mg, but the reinstatement to 20mg after the fast taper did nothing, so I went to 30mg that also did nothing, ended up on 40mg that seemed to stop a lot of the protracted withdrawal.

 

The thing is, what the doctors do in these situations is add another class of psychotropic drug to stave off the side effects/popping out/ineffectiveness of the original drug.My doctor at the time added depakine to "stabilize" my "mood".Of course that is BS but it also has the merit of staving off the protracted withdrawal/harm done by CT, fast tapers, neurological instability.

 

I am not recommending anything to you as that would be unwise, I am just narrating my experience.

 

The point is, no matter the point we find ourselves in, we need to reach a  neurological stability.The means by which we do that vary from person to person, case by case.

 

I am hopeful for you and I hope you can find the silver lining and move forward, in some ways.Love!

[alex01]

@zanti

I am neurologically stable. Stable but partially disabled physically, emotionally and cognitively. And I don't see any improvement. But we continue with our lives anyway...

 

At least, if this is any consolation to me, I no longer have the side effects of using these horrible drugs.

 

Thank you!

[Vancouver1986]

Paxil seems to be especially bad for protracted withdrawal syndrome. You can google Nicole Lamberson and her involvement with the Inner Compass, "Medicating Normal", The International Institute for Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal, may have written for Mad In America North America, etc. She is extremely blunt and explicit to inform researchers about all of this, just like the rest of us. Nobody deserves to have this happen to their person and become disabled, & that's why we speak up. We all need friends who we can socialize with.

 

You can also google Paxil and all of the Pharmaceuticals your physiology is stuck in a chemical dependence to on: go.drugbank.com. This could explain a lot of your body's experiences while on these legal Psychotropics and the improper (you didn't know) withdrawal from them. You can do comparing and contrasting; even if you don't have much post-secondary education.

 

I tried Paxil around 2015, and it felt like I was on bath salts or something. It happened quickly, and I didn't last long on it until I swapped back to whatever Pharmaceutical I was on before. I didn't take myself to the Mental Health & Substance Use Unit of the local hospital, because I didn't really know it existed. It was extremely disturbing.

 

Just like with all of the rest of these Psychotropic Pharmaceuticals, "it feels like [my] brain, nervous system, digestive system, endocrine system, etc is being given something it doesn't require to be well". When you word it like that like I always have, medical professionals in the 'Psych Ward' or voluntary In-Patient Facilities or GP's get very shy and coy and their body language changes, because they know that you know that this is grey-area/bordering on unethical and malpractice. Same with when you mention acute withdrawal and protracted withdrawal syndrome. They tend to become flustered and borderline antagonistic, because they caused this to happen to your physiology.

[alex01]

@Vancouver1986

I know who Nicole Lamberson is. I've watched a few videos she was in. I remember watching her say that there must be permanent damage caused by these drugs, because her symptoms had stopped improving for so many years.

 

Doctors know that these drugs do this. It's not possible for someone to prescribe it for decades and not notice the consequences. They seem uncomfortable when we mention the long-term consequences. They won't admit it. After all, they make a living drugging people, and current science supports them.  

 

I wish you success in your journey to reduce the burden of these drugs in your life. 

 

Thank you for the message. Hugs!

[BoomSiva]

@alex01 we stop meds around the same time, it's been 4.3 years for me and I'm still very disabled with so many symptoms. I was wondering if some strength comeback for you? I have something similar like chronic fatigue, I can't workout anymore and if I do 2-3 hours of physical work I completely crash. It's very disabling.

[alex01]

@BoomSiva

In fact, the only real difference in strength I felt was between the acute and protracted withdrawal phases. In the first 3 months of withdrawal (acute), the weakness and lack of energy were horrible. After that, there was an improvement. 

 

Over the last 5 years, I have tried to improve my nutrition as much as possible. I have seen some additional improvement by eating properly. But I understand that it was a nutritional improvement, and not specifically a recovery of the nervous system. Because when I relax with my diet, my strength drops again. 

 

I used to exercise 5 to 6 times a week, moderate to intense before withdrawal. Today, I can do it 2 to 3 times, very light to moderate. More than that, and I'm sure I'll crash. It's been like this for a long time. 

 

Yes, I have fluctuations in energy throughout the day. With an average of much lower energy and motivation than before withdrawal. But I also need to understand that that huge dose of paroxetine that I was using had a lot of influence on motivation. 40 mg of paroxetine per day is a lot, it would be a lot even for a horse.