Motherdragon Newbie - Very Anxious Coming Off Venlafaxine

October 11, 2023

Hello all, I’m Sarah.

Having been diagnosed with ADHD last December (age 50!!) I am coming off Venlafaxine in order to try ADHD meds on the basis that my decades long anxiety has been the hyperactive mind of undiagnosed ADHD. I have high BP (Venlafaxine induced) and as stimulant meds may also raise my BP I have been advised to come off the Venlafaxine.

I started antidepressants (Prozac) in 2000, following my last pregnancy in which I had hyperemesis gravidarum (severe pregnancy sickness)I became so afraid of being sick) I couldn’t work (in case I came in contact with someone who had “germs”). In 2004 after citalopram didn’t work I was put on Venlafaxine and that helped the emetaphobia and associated anxiety.

All along I had health anxiety but it was intermittent and manageable, if I had a real symptom I would worry but otherwise I was ok.

That changed in 2019 (perimenopause?) and since then the anxiety has got worse and worse. I am anxious more often than not, I imagine all kinds of symptoms and have a constant sense of impending doom.

I’m currently having a few (what I hope) are withdrawal symptoms, which are exacerbating my anxiety a lot - I’ll post in the other forum about them.

Aside from my mental health issues I am married to my childhood sweetheart and we have two adult children who I’m happy to say are still at home. We have two Tonkinese cats, Jasper and Bear and a JRT called Mr Darcy as well as Chico, an orange-winged Amazon parrot who hates me!! 😆

I do not work but I am arty so I occupy myself with drawing; sewing; embroidery; knitting; crochet, etc

I hope to find reassurance and friendship here.

October 12, 2023

Welcome, @Motherdragon

Did the doctor who advised you to come off venlafaxine give you a plan for coming off?

14 hours ago, Motherdragon said:

I’m currently having a few (what I hope) are withdrawal symptoms, which are exacerbating my anxiety a lot - I’ll post in the other forum about them.

What are you tapering? What times o'clock do you take your drugs, with their dosages?

October 12, 2023

6 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Did the doctor who advised you to come off venlafaxine give you a plan for coming off?

No, she told me to speak to my GP - who told me to half my dose from 375mg for a week then stop the week after!! Luckily, I knew better.

6 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What are you tapering? What times o'clock do you take your drugs, with their dosages?

I’m on venlafaxine XR. Started tapering off it in January at 375mg. Now on 112.5mg which I take at night about midnight (I’m a night owl) with 30mg mirtazapine.

Was ok until I dropped under 150mg, now have constant anxiety mainly caused by/exacerbated by muscle twitching/flutters (mainly one sided) which my health anxiety is telling me is something serious 😬

I’m taking fish oil, several types of magnesium and have just ordered some vitamin E.

October 12, 2023

TW: dark thoughts (no specifics)
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Really low with the anxiety. Dark thoughts.

My anxiety has been increased exponentially and since dropping below 150mg has been exacerbated by (what I hope are) withdrawal symptoms: muscle twitching; tingling; numbness; a sensation of the hairs standing up on my scalp or leg (but no goosebumps IYSWIM).

Then last night whilst doing close work (hand embroidery) several times my eyes sort of unfocused for a split second and my health anxiety is telling me it’s seizures (can one have a seizure but still be doing your embroidery/typing?)

Although rationally I realise these are all (probably?) on the withdrawal symptom list my health anxiety is telling me I am fatally ill which is leading me to have very dark thoughts.

I am also on mirtazapine which three weeks ago my GP increased from 15mg to 30mg in a bid to curb the anxiety.

I’m so scared all the time.

October 12, 2023

Hi @Motherdragon,

I remember feeling scared all the time, so I can relate. This feeling has mostly passed for me, but it does still creep up periodically when I hit a particularly hard wave.

Have you had a chance to look around the site? There are many resources that may help to alleviate some of your fears. The ones below can get you started.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forum/8-symptoms-and-self-care/

October 12, 2023

14 hours ago, Motherdragon said:

Now on 112.5mg which I take at night about midnight (I’m a night owl) with 30mg mirtazapine.

It's bad enough that you're taking venlafaxine with mirtazapine but it makes no sense at all for you to be taking the 2 drugs at the same time.

Suggest you gradually move the venlafaxine earlier by an hour each day until you are taking it at 8 p.m.

2 hours ago, Motherdragon said:

I am also on mirtazapine which three weeks ago my GP increased from 15mg to 30mg in a bid to curb the anxiety.

How did your symptom pattern change after this increase?

Did the same doctor who prescribed venlafaxine with mirtazapine diagnose you with ADHD?

October 12, 2023

9 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

How did your symptom pattern change after this increase?

Did the same doctor who prescribed venlafaxine with mirtazapine diagnose you with ADHD?

No change in physical symptoms or anxiety. Sleep a bit better.

A psychiatrist diagnosed me with ADHD. She advised I discontinue the venlafaxine before starting ADHD meds.

GP added mirtazapine a couple of years ago and increased it three weeks ago.

I have an appointment with her next week and I think she will want to increase the mirtazapine to 45mg - she said last time I saw her that I may need more than 30mg to control the increased anxiety.

October 13, 2023

Since your GP has been increasing your mirtazapine dose while you are tapering, we cannot tell where this increased anxiety is coming from.

We will not be able to advise you on tapering while you're changing or increasing your drugs.

The anxiety may not be related to withdrawal at all. It could be that, although you have reduced venlafaxine, the mirtazapine increase has amplified the potential drug-drug interaction, especially since you are TAKING THE TWO DRUGS AT THE SAME TIME.

Your GP is misguided in thinking mirtazapine is an anti-anxiety drug, ESPECIALLY WHEN PRESCRIBED WITH VENLAFAXINE. Venlafaxine or mirtazapine alone can cause anxiety. Read up on the adverse effects of each of your drugs on drugs.com and see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC353045/

Please put ALL your current drugs in this Interactions Checker and post the report or a link to it in this topic. Also see Serotonin Syndrome or Serotonin Toxicity

Just about everyone here has found their GP doesn't know what they're doing when it comes to psychiatric drug prescription or tapering.

To be honest, we don't provide support for drug switches, which I presume the ADHD diagnosis would entail. Since you agree with the psychiatrist that you need ADHD drugs, in my opinion, it's the psychiatrist's responsibility to figure out how to safely switch your drugs. If neither your GP nor your psychiatrist are willing to take on this responsibility, for which they are paid, that should tell you something.

I would also question the validity of an ADHD diagnosis while you are under the influence of mirtazapine and venlafaxine.

October 13, 2023

I’m not asking for support to switch drugs, I want to be off both the venlafaxine and eventually the mirtazapine.

I’m looking for support in coming off and in dealing with the increased anxiety and other withdrawal symptoms which are exacerbating things.

10 hours ago, Altostrata said:

The anxiety may not be related to withdrawal at all. It could be that, although you have reduced venlafaxine, the mirtazapine increase has amplified the potential drug-drug interaction, especially since you are TAKING THE TWO DRUGS AT THE SAME TIME.

I’ve been taking the mirtazapine with the venlafaxine (a combo used for resistant depression/anxiety) for over two years. It’s only since I started tapering the venlafaxine that the anxiety has increased to the current level.

My GP then last month increased the mirtazapine and it has not helped, in fact my anxiety is worse than ever.

I’d also welcome supplement advice - I’m taking the following:

Magnesium 3 in 1 contains:

Magnesium glycinate 1000mg

Malate 400mg

Citrate 400mg

Magnesium Oxide Complex:

Magnesium oxide 244mg

Magnesium citrate 56mg

Vitamin B6 50mg

Omega Fish Oils

4000mg

Seaweed Calcium

Alyve Personalised Supplement:

Vitamin A	800ug	100
Vitamin B12	20ug	833%
Vitamin C	260mg	325%
Vitamin D3	20ug	400%
Biotin	900ug	1800%
Iron	8mg	58%
Zinc	15mg	150%
Selenium Yeast	110ug	200%
Ginkgo Biloba	165mg	*
Ashwagandha	500mg
Green Tea Extr...	400mg	*
Hyaluronic Acid	100mg	*
Black Pepper...	14.4mg
Bamboo Stem...	100mg
Turmeric	2000mg	*
Grape Skin Ext...	400mg	*
Lion's Mane M...	200mg

Is there anything in the above that could be exacerbating things?

After reading here I’ve started vitamin E today and have ordered some l-theanine.

October 13, 2023

10 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Please put ALL your current drugs in this Interactions Checker and post the report or a link to it in this topic.

https://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=3465-0,1019-3912,1640-0,2788-0,1989-0,2070-0,2296-0&consumer=1&types[]=major&types[]=minor&types[]=moderate&types[]=food&types[]=therapeutic_duplication

October 13, 2023

11 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Your GP is misguided in thinking mirtazapine is an anti-anxiety drug, ESPECIALLY WHEN PRESCRIBED WITH VENLAFAXINE. Venlafaxine or mirtazapine alone can cause anxiety. Read up on the adverse effects of each of your drugs on drugs.com and see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC353045/

I would also question the validity of an ADHD diagnosis while you are under the influence of mirtazapine and venlafaxine.

Mirtazapine plus venlafaxine increased my anxiety, irritability and agitation massively. Extremely unpleasant. Thought I was losing the plot! Horrible for my family to witness and be at the receiving end of.

Agree about the ADHD for now... I am just tackling my "traits" the best I can. See what I'm like at the end of this...

October 13, 2023

34 minutes ago, BigCat said:

Mirtazapine plus venlafaxine increased my anxiety, irritability and agitation massively.

Goodness that’s interesting. I didn’t consider that as a possibility.

So I wonder having been on 15mg mirtazapine for two years and 30mg for three weeks how do I taper off that?

For reference last year I did a straight swap from mirtazapine to pregabalin with no withdrawals but the pregabalin gave me reflux so I swapped back, again no withdrawals.

October 13, 2023

2 hours ago, Motherdragon said:

Goodness that’s interesting. I didn’t consider that as a possibility.

So I wonder having been on 15mg mirtazapine for two years and 30mg for three weeks how do I taper off that?

For reference last year I did a straight swap from mirtazapine to pregabalin with no withdrawals but the pregabalin gave me reflux so I swapped back, again no withdrawals.

There are folk here who are really good at advising. Your poor brain must be frazzled.

October 13, 2023

Hello all,

I am on these meds due to OCD and health anxiety (which is a branch of the OCD tree).

I’m currently tapering off Venlafaxine which I have been on almost 20 years. I started in January on 375mg and am currently on 112.5mg. I was also on 15mg mirtazapine which was (three weeks ago) increased to 30mg due to increasing anxiety - this increase has not helped, (other than my sleep) in fact my anxiety is worse than ever.

Throughout this taper I have had minimal withdrawal symptoms until I got to 150mg. Since then I have had muscle twitching/fluttering, mainly in one calf, usually on the left (the same side that I had sciatica for years in) but sometimes elsewhere; numbness in part of one foot; tingling; worsening of carpal tunnel syndrome and a huge rise in anxiety - all of which has been terrifying me because whilst my rational brain knows these are known withdrawals my health anxiety is telling me I am fatally ill 🙄

I have had health anxiety for decades but it only became troublesome four years ago possibly due to perimenopause. I am extremely good at “imagining” the very symptoms I am afraid of which then disappear after clear tests. In the past four years my anxiety has driven me to have 3 x mammograms; 2 x throat cameras; 2 x abdominal scans; a vaginal ultrasound; chest x-Ray and an endoscopy - most of which we paid for rather than go through the NHS.

Yesterday I became distraught because I noticed during close work (hand embroidery) my eyes flickering/refocusing and convinced myself it was seizures.

I am currently having CBT (again). I am meditating twice daily using a Sensate device (which tones the vagus nerve).

I’d welcome supplement advice - I’m taking the following:

Magnesium 3 in 1 contains:

Magnesium glycinate 1000mg

Malate 400mg

Citrate 400mg

Magnesium Oxide Complex:

Magnesium oxide 244mg

Magnesium citrate 56mg

Vitamin B6 50mg

Omega Fish Oils

4000mg

Seaweed Calcium

Alyve Personalised Supplement:

Vitamin A	800ug	100
Vitamin B12	20ug	833%
Vitamin C	260mg	325%
Vitamin D3	20ug	400%
Biotin	900ug	1800%
Iron	8mg	58%
Zinc	15mg	150%
Selenium Yeast	110ug	200%
Ginkgo Biloba	165mg	*
Ashwagandha	500mg
Green Tea Extr...	400mg	*
Hyaluronic Acid	100mg	*
Black Pepper...	14.4mg
Bamboo Stem...	100mg
Turmeric	2000mg	*
Grape Skin Ext...	400mg	*
Lion's Mane M...	200mg

This week I added broad spectrum CBD paste.

Is there anything in the above that could be exacerbating things?

After reading here I’ve started vitamin E today and have ordered some l-theanine.

Thanks for reading x

(BTW please no scary stories of serious illness as it will set me off)

October 13, 2023

@Motherdragon did you see this?

17 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Suggest you gradually move the venlafaxine earlier by an hour each day until you are taking it at 8 p.m.

Did you read your drug interaction report? If I were you, I'd wonder about all the drugs that your GP has prescribed for you, especially in combination.

Again, I'd also wonder about the validity of an ADHD diagnosis for someone taking 7 drugs, any one of which may cause wooziness and inattention. Speaks volumes about the psychiatrist that she did not notice you were taking 7 drugs and referred only to the venlafaxine.

As for your increase to 30mg mirtazapine 3 weeks ago, it's very possible that it is responsible for your increase in symptoms, rather than the venlafaxine decrease. You may be having inklings of the drug-drug interaction that leads to serotonin syndrome.

Three weeks is on the borderline of adaptation. It's possible your system is now adapted to 30mg mirtazapine, increasing risk of withdrawal if you lower the mirtazapine dose. Suggest you try a 5mg reduction in mirtazapine, see if that's tolerable.

October 13, 2023

Thank you for your reply.

I did read the report, I’m aware that the duplication of two antidepressants could be an issue but thought the risk of serotonin syndrome had passed due to the fact I’ve been on the two drugs years.

As for the other meds, I can’t come off BP meds until I see what my BP does when I’m off the venlafaxine.

The Canagliflozin and Sitagliptin are for T2 diabetes so necessary, as is the HRT.

7 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Again, I'd also wonder about the validity of an ADHD diagnosis for someone taking 7 drugs, any one of which may cause wooziness and inattention. Speaks volumes about the psychiatrist that she did not notice you were taking 7 drugs and referred only to the venlafaxine.

ADHD is much more than wooziness and inattention. My assessment was detailed and thorough, taking into account my entire medical history and reports from people who have known me since childhood. To receive a diagnosis of ADHD the traits must have been present prior to the age of 12 - long before I took any medication.

The psychiatrist was well aware of all my meds, the effects of which cannot be mistaken for ADHD.

I am aware I am new here but with respect I confess to feeling somewhat offended by the suggestion my ADHD diagnosis is not valid due to the meds I’m on.

No medications can create the symptoms/traits/history required for an ADHD diagnosis.

It has taken this long to get a diagnosis as I, like many others thought ADHD was little boys bouncing off walls. It took a school friend of mine getting her diagnosis as she approached 50 for me to research and learn ADHD is often missed in girls who learn to mask very well. Then when perimenopause starts they find it harder and harder, go in search of answers and realise they have ADHD.

October 13, 2023

So you do intend to switch to ADHD treatment. I have to ask again, why don't you engage this psychiatrist to resolve your current drug problems?

The danger of a venlafaxine-mirtazapine interaction can be seen from a mile away.

Sorry to sound cranky, but I'm not seeing why unpaid volunteer peer support should fill in for your 2 paid medical professionals. If you're committed to ongoing psychiatric treatment, what are you doing mucking about with peer support? Either the psychiatrist is an expert or she's not.

October 13, 2023

32 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

did you see this?

18 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Suggest you gradually move the venlafaxine earlier by an hour each day until you are taking it at 8 p.m.

Sorry forgot to reply to this. Is it better to take the med earlier in the evening then?

I can easily move the dose I changed from night to morning a few weeks ago in just a couple of days (then back again when there was no improvement).

10 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Sorry to sound cranky, but I'm not seeing why unpaid volunteer peer support should fill in for your 2 paid medical professionals. If you're committed to ongoing psychiatric treatment, what are you doing mucking about with peer support? Either the psychiatrist is an expert or she's not.

I thought this website was for help coming off antidepressants, is that only the case if I intend to have no further psychiatric treatment? My plan going forward is to come off both the venlafaxine and the mirtazapine then decide whether to try ADHD stimulant meds. I have also been looking into alternative more natural treatments for both anxiety and ADHD, those also are of the type that I need to be off the psychiatric meds before trying.

The psychiatrist who did the ADHD assessment directed me to my GP for support as the psychiatrist specialises in ADHD and the meds I am on are not for ADHD and were not prescribed by her. My GP advised me to half the 375mg venlafaxine for two weeks then discontinue!!

So I am here because GPs and psychiatrists are woefully misinformed or indeed, ignorant and the best advice from what I can tell is peer-to-peer.

October 13, 2023

31 minutes ago, Motherdragon said:

Is it better to take the med earlier in the evening then?

As explained at length, these 2 drugs are dangerous when prescribed together and taking them at the same time of day increases the risk! Separating them by a few hours might give your system some relief at least.

We provide peer support for people to reduce their drug burden because doctors are largely ignorant of this. We explicitly do not provide peer support for those under the active care of a psychiatrist who want to switch their drugs and continue psychiatric drug treatment. We're not unpaid doctor's assistants. We do not help people get comfortable on their drug cocktails. We do not enable ongoing psychiatric drug treatment, that's what you pay your doctors for.

It is absurd that a psychiatrist is a specialist in ADHD treatment and doesn't know anything else. She went through general psychiatry training. However, you seem to be sold on this idea that you need to go off venlafaxine to try ADHD stimulants, while you're apparently looking forward to taking stimulants with mirtazapine.

Meanwhile, I believe we've ascertained that your symptoms are probably not from your venlafaxine tapering but from your GP's irresponsible increase in your mirtazapine dosage. As explained before, we cannot advise on tapering WHILE YOU ARE CHANGING OTHER DRUGS.

If you want to continue tapering venlafaxine, see Tips for tapering off venlafaxine (Effexor)

October 13, 2023

I am not under “active psychiatric care”. I am in the UK and due to the lengthy waiting lists at the NHS I went privately for ADHD assessment. If I wish to titrate onto ADHD meds I must go back to the private psychiatrist and pay again for that.

The only doctor overseeing my care is an NHS GP.

Regarding the ADHD, I want to try natural treatments first and need off the venlafaxine and mirtazapine in order to get the best effect.

12 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

As explained at length, these 2 drugs are dangerous when prescribed together

Nobody has “explained at length” that these drugs are dangerous - they were prescribed to me by the NHS and are a known combo for resistant depression.

I don’t understand why you are getting so cross with me. I don’t understand why you have an issue with the fact I have ADHD which has been diagnosed by a specialist after thorough assessment. I’m feeling attacked and upset TBH.

October 13, 2023

If it weren't for this ADHD diagnosis, you would be working with your GP to adjust your current cocktail, not trying to go off anything. Your motivation is to go off venlafaxine to go on ADHD drugs. This is a drug switch.

Further, from the history you have provided, it appears your problems have been adverse effects of drugs, not withdrawal.

We provide peer support for tapering to reduce drug burden, not drug switches, and peer support for protracted withdrawal syndrome. Your situation fits neither of these conditions. However, you have been getting peer support anyway for your drug-induced symptoms, but ignoring it.

Did you not see several references to a dangerous interaction between venlafaxine and mirtazapine? Did you start moving your venlafaxine dose earlier yet? Did you not see this:

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

Three weeks is on the borderline of adaptation. It's possible your system is now adapted to 30mg mirtazapine, increasing risk of withdrawal if you lower the mirtazapine dose. Suggest you try a 5mg reduction in mirtazapine, see if that's tolerable.

We provide peer support because there is a tragic and dangerous gap in doctors' knowledge about tapering and withdrawal. We draw the line at being unpaid doctors' assistants -- that's exploitative.

October 13, 2023

I came here because I am suffering whilst tapering off my psychiatric meds, I thought that is what this website is for - to “survive antidepressants” that is what I am trying to do.

I have said REPEATEDLY I don’t know if I will try ADHD pharmaceuticals. At present my only motivation is to get off the psych meds I am on.

Can you point in the direction of where it says this site is only for folks whose motivation is they just want off the meds? Only for people who will never want or need psychiatric medication in the future?

I have been on venlafaxine/mirtazapine for several years. My anxiety has increased as my venlafaxine dose has lowered. Therefore I believe it’s withdrawals.

21 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Did you start moving your venlafaxine dose earlier yet? Did you not see this:

You only suggested I move the dose a few hours ago I don’t know the time zone where you are but I’ve not had chance to take another dose yet!!

I still don’t understand why I have incurred your wrath, my posts seem no different to myriad others here.

TO CLARIFY: I just want off these meds - I want to try NONE PHARMACEUTICAL natural remedies. Surely that doesn’t disqualify me from kindness and support from my peers?

October 13, 2023

You've got some suggestions, now it's up to you to act on them.

We are not responsible for resolving every bad decision by a prescriber that results in adverse drug effects. We're not a public utility or a general mental health site. We provide peer support for reducing drug burden and withdrawal syndrome. We do not offer peer support for drug switches, no matter how much suffering is involved.

October 13, 2023

4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

We do not offer peer support for drug switches, no matter how much suffering is involved.

I don’t know how many different ways I can say I am not asking about drug switching. I have not made any decision what I will do after I am off these meds. My intent currently is to get off the pharmaceuticals and then try natural remedies.

I came here because I am fretting over the physical symptoms which began after the venlafaxine dropped below 150mg that are exacerbating my HEALTH anxiety/OCD.

If my mental illness wasn’t health anxiety/OCD I wouldn’t be worried about the physical symptoms. If I was not having any physical symptoms then my anxiety would not be increased. The physical symptoms are making me worry something is seriously wrong with me rather than “just” withdrawals.

The only suggestion I recall is the one you made about moving the venlafaxine dose?

In my other post I asked about supplements, I don’t think anyone has replied to that yet.

I was hoping to find support from a “that happened to me” point of view; supplement/self care advice; useful resources and friendship - you’ve certainly disabused me of that notion.

October 13, 2023

May I?

Welcome Motherdragon Newbie! You are not the first to perhaps not have read in the Read This First Forum

In particular: See this topic

Motherdragon, say hello to Altostrata, the site founder, and main administrator. And one of the greats in this area of tapering, de-prescribing, and withdrawal.

You just got here.

I saw the suggests, and then didn't see any acknowledgement of them.......just more and more questions. This all takes time. Our getting to know you. You getting to know how the site works, etc.

Might be a good time to just review now. Calm down. Relax. Or.......see how others cope with anxiety during WD.......explore symptoms and self care, that forum. Explore the site. Then try and acknowledge what has been offered too. That always helps. We all just volunteer our time here, and deal with many members. I expect each member to become a bit more empowered and aware as they go along. I don't expect them to come in knowing it all.......nor should you expect that of yourself.

I also saw more questions on supplements too.

We just endorse the Omega's and Magnesium, which I saw you have already started, so Kudos, good job. Generally start low, go slow, just one new change at any time. Many members are sensitive in WD, and while tapering, to so much.

Hang on.
Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, and diet

Best, Love, Peace, Healing, and Growth,

manymoretodays(mmt)

October 13, 2023

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Three weeks is on the borderline of adaptation. It's possible your system is now adapted to 30mg mirtazapine, increasing risk of withdrawal if you lower the mirtazapine dose. Suggest you try a 5mg reduction in mirtazapine, see if that's tolerable.

Here's the other suggest ^

Man, I don't know what I might have done without some of Alto's input into my case early on. I was honored.

And we are an internet forum type site. Not equipped for insta-care.

Hope this is all taken well. Best.

Edited October 13, 2023 by manymoretodays

October 13, 2023

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Three weeks is on the borderline of adaptation. It's possible your system is now adapted to 30mg mirtazapine, increasing risk of withdrawal if you lower the mirtazapine dose. Suggest you try a 5mg reduction in mirtazapine, see if that's tolerable.

Thank you I will try that.

October 13, 2023

3 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

Here's the other suggest ^

Thank you. I fear I have gotten off on the wrong foot and I don’t really understand what I did wrong maybe because I am ND. RSD is now strong.

October 13, 2023

I just edited in a bit more too Motherdragon, as I often do......to my response.

Take care. I'm over and out now. Sending healing......and good cheer.

🧙‍♀️

October 13, 2023

16 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

Take care. I'm over and out now. Sending healing......and good cheer.

Thank you and to you.

October 17, 2023

On 10/13/2023 at 2:02 PM, Motherdragon said:

Thank you. I fear I have gotten off on the wrong foot and I don’t really understand what I did wrong maybe because I am ND. RSD is now strong.

What's ND? Is RSD rejection sensitive dysphoria? (googled)

And sorry if that seemed insensitive........I too, was once new and did get thrown by mods at times, not understanding. And I wanted to get drug free! Apologies. I don't think you did anything "wrong". And I think Alto just wanted to be sure that you were not here with a main interest in drug switches or drug management. We are devoted to those who wish to taper and become drug free someday. Your musings on getting into possible drug treatment for ADD or ADHD, the "titrating" should be done with a doctor if that is the route you choose. And you would not need to be here really if you are invested in another diagnosis and drug treatment. It did come off as maybe just TMI, or argumentative.......I don't know.

And you may well be into some "irritable" WD symptoms now too. Sometimes symptoms arise even with a nice harm reduction taper.

How are you doing today?

I do hope you've recovered and are doing okay. Please do return and update, ask questions, etc if you want to continue with just tapering your current drug combination.

Dr. Breggin talks about Medication Spellbinding(Intoxication Anosognosia) here

And a video, it's long but informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7rNEJVgtd0

And more from Dr. Breggin again here.

I too, think the possibility of any ADD, ADHD is likely the result of your drugs rather than any pre-drug naturally occurring "disorder". And, when seeing some psychologists and psychiatrists one can get further mired into the belief that there is some long standing biological defect, going on, that can only be further remedied with drugs. We aren't into that.

Also see: Again, chemical imbalance is myth. Stop the lies please.

We'd love to help you get out of the clutches of the "California Rocket fuel" if and when that is truly your only desire. It's just that if you are doing it to partake in further psychotropic drug experiments..........we'd rather be helping those who are like minded, and want to get off these types of drugs for good.

I'm sure I've said enough. And everyone does get to have their own "truth" and journey. None of this should make you feel bad or be a cause for further labeling of yourself.

This is a whole community, most of us singing the same tune. You've introduced yourself, gotten some suggestions and information. You can communicate with staff or other members here or by PM-private msg too. All is not lost. Your welcome to keep kind of a journal here, in your topic as well. And you find support here as well as new coping skills unrelated to drugs(Symptoms and Self Care), and in reading and supporting other members.

All my best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Please keep us updated, and then, if you do have a change of mind, and/or to let us know how the suggestions went if you took them. Thank you.

Edited October 17, 2023 by manymoretodays

October 17, 2023

Thank you for your reply I will check out the resources you suggest.

I joined because my withdrawal symptoms have been scaring me.

Now you have explained it I understand that it looked like I want to hop off my current meds and onto others, that’s not the case.

I want off these meds and to try natural methods for example supplements which are currently contraindicated whilst on antidepressants.

I recently begun a course of CBT and am using vagus nerve stimulation daily.

56 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

What's ND? Is RSD rejection sensitive dysphoria?

Neurodivergent = ADHD (also of course autism/dyslexia/dyspraxia).

Yes RSD is rejection sensitive dysphoria.

50 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

I too, think the possibility of any ADD, ADHD is likely the result of your drugs rather than any pre-drug naturally occurring "disorder".

My ADHD traits and symptoms long predate any drugs. Having realised and being formally diagnosed has meant my whole life, right back to early childhood, makes more sense.

The traits that make up ADHD are wide and varied and one must have most of them for a diagnosis to be made. One must also have had them prior to the age of 12. My psychiatrist had people who knew me then fill out reports as well as assess me thoroughly.

None of the traits I have started after the psych meds, they were all long present beforehand the only change was in my awareness.

A friend I went to school with disclosed she had been diagnosed and I thought “ADHD that’s naughty little boys isn’t it?” - I began to research. ADHD in girls presents much differently to boys and girls often mask the traits in order to fit in.There was a revelation - I realised I too had ADHD.

I had been an anxious little girl; with ability and intelligence but unable to apply myself, flitting from one thing to another. A jack of all trades, master of none. A daydreamer, finding it hard to fit in and relentlessly bullied all throughout my education even through a change of schools. Only having a handful of friends. Forgetful and careless with the finer details unless super interested in the task. Only able to churn out work if under a deadline. Creative with a constant inner dialogue, with such procrastination that I put off doing even things I really want to.

None of this came after the psych meds. All was present before.

1 hour ago, manymoretodays said:

How are you doing today?

Feeling a bit better the past few days, started l-theanine and wondering how long to hold before dropping the venlafaxine again. I last dropped 29th September.

October 18, 2023

Okay thank you. I am surprised I did not recognize the ND, as neurodivergent/neurodiverse as I can relate to that. Not as any disorder or something that needs treatment however. And I don't know really how much of mine was present before medications. A little bit, but I always got by okay. Overall, mostly average in all my endeavors.........though there were times I excelled, there were also times I just did the best I could.

Some of your descriptions:

On 10/17/2023 at 1:05 PM, Motherdragon said:

I had been an anxious little girl; with ability and intelligence but unable to apply myself, flitting from one thing to another. A jack of all trades, master of none. A daydreamer, finding it hard to fit in and relentlessly bullied all throughout my education even through a change of schools. Only having a handful of friends. Forgetful and careless with the finer details unless super interested in the task. Only able to churn out work if under a deadline. Creative with a constant inner dialogue, with such procrastination that I put off doing even things I really want to.

Well, this one ^. That's not a disorder, or I don't think so. That's you. Your personality. I'm a bit the same. Some things I work hard on changing, if they are painful things emotionally........and do make progress from time to time.

Stimulants though. Yuch. Some of kids are not doing real well as they move into adulthood, after years of ADD or ADHD treatment with stimulants. And you're older now too, you need to think of your whole health, and your heart. Yah, you'd no doubt get some short term relief of anxiety with stimulants too, unlikely it would last.......and at what cost? And I mean your health in general.

Okay, anyway.......glad that is on the back burner and I hope it stays there and you never even make or keep that appointment.

I take it the anxiety is fierce then. When did it become more pronounced? Perimenopause can be a fairly rock and roll time too, it doesn't help things.......but thankfully menopause will eventually arrive.

On 10/17/2023 at 1:05 PM, Motherdragon said:

I joined because my withdrawal symptoms have been scaring me.

Well, I hope you feel some peace and less fear then now. You're not alone with the symptoms you are having here. Many trying to cope their best with similar.

What's going on besides the anxiety? Symptoms?

On 10/1/2023 at 5:31 PM, Emonda said:

Here is a screenshot of the symptom checklist link I posted above from Dr Glenmullen:

For right now I would hold tight with your current venlafaxine dose. It looks like you have not exceeded 10% tapering from each previous dose, every 4 weeks, if started from 375 mg, and presently on 112.5 mg. How did you calculate each taper though? How much did you drop by and how frequently?

These will come in handy too:

Tips for tapering off Effexor and EffexorXR(venlafaxine)

Tips for tapering off mirtazapine(Remeron)

Have you been moving the venlafaxine dose to earlier? I think you were advised to get it to 8 pm.

And then what did you think of:

On 10/13/2023 at 11:16 AM, Altostrata said:

As for your increase to 30mg mirtazapine 3 weeks ago, it's very possible that it is responsible for your increase in symptoms, rather than the venlafaxine decrease. You may be having inklings of the drug-drug interaction that leads to serotonin syndrome.

Three weeks is on the borderline of adaptation. It's possible your system is now adapted to 30mg mirtazapine, increasing risk of withdrawal if you lower the mirtazapine dose. Suggest you try a 5mg reduction in mirtazapine, see if that's tolerable.

I'd sure be holding off now, on any supplement additions, other than the omega's or magnesium.

And then just one change at a time too, is our recommend. That way it's easier to ascertain what is doing what.

The rule of 3KIS: keep it simple, slow, and stable

Let us know what you're doing and how you are doing Motherdragon. Appreciate it.

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited October 18, 2023 by manymoretodays
more, checking links

October 19, 2023

Thank you for your reply.

13 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

Stimulants though. Yuch.

Whilst the idea of trying stimulant meds was the catalyst for starting my taper having learned of the side effects I am probably not going to go ahead with them. I have natural remedies I want to try one I’m off both my psych meds.

13 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

I take it the anxiety is fierce then. When did it become more pronounced?

To answer fully, anxiety became troublesome in 2019. August 2022 we moved house (after 22 years in our old one) and it increased again. Started tapering the Venlafaxine in January and it got steadily worse again with me now having far more anxious days than not. Since the last drop from 121mg to 112.5mg on 29th September it’s been rough.

My anxiety is usually worse in the mornings (though I rise late) and tends to improve some as the day wears on. Often I’m awake until the early hours as I feel better and so put off going to sleep because I know I will feel bad again in the morning.

The symptom that is scaring me and thus exacerbating the anxiety is the muscle twitching. It started at the end of July (after I went under 150mg) - would you believe, the day after I started worrying about twitching. It’s mainly on my left side, mostly lower leg/calf feels like flutters. Sometime on the right but much more on the left/ My health anxiety has had me afraid it’s ALS or brain t***** (I can’t type the word).

13 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

Have you been moving the venlafaxine dose to earlier? I think you were advised to get it to 8 pm.

I’m moving my dose.

13 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

Let us know what you're doing and how you are doing Motherdragon. Appreciate it.

Thank you for asking. Tearful and anxious again the past two days. Had an appointment with my GP yesterday, she said we could to increase the mirtazapine but I resisted.

I’m taking all types of magnesium, vitamin e and l-theanine as well as the supplements listed above.

I’ve just had my fourth session of CBT, working on my intolerance of uncertainty. I’m meditating twice daily using a Sensate device which stimulates the vagus nerve via a pebble like device that vibrates on the sternum whilst I listen to music via their app. I’m also having regular massages.

October 19, 2023

May I ask for advice regarding the mirtazapine?

You may remember I’m currently tapering off venlafaxine - I started at 375mg in January and am currently on 112.5mg. Recently my GP increased the mirtazapine it from 15mg to 30mg due to worsening anxiety.

A month on and my anxiety is worse if anything, can I just drop back to 15mg mirtazapine or do I have to slow taper that now?

For reference I once swapped direct from mirtazapine to pregabalin with no issues. This was before I decided to come off the psych meds completely.

Yesterday I saw my GP for review and other matters and she wanted me to increase the mirtazapine as my anxiety is still bad but armed with the info from here I declined.

October 19, 2023

Here's what Alto had to say on the 13th of October:

On 10/13/2023 at 11:16 AM, Altostrata said:

As for your increase to 30mg mirtazapine 3 weeks ago, it's very possible that it is responsible for your increase in symptoms, rather than the venlafaxine decrease. You may be having inklings of the drug-drug interaction that leads to serotonin syndrome.

Three weeks is on the borderline of adaptation. It's possible your system is now adapted to 30mg mirtazapine, increasing risk of withdrawal if you lower the mirtazapine dose. Suggest you try a 5mg reduction in mirtazapine, see if that's tolerable.

And me, I'd try a 5 mg reduction even now......6 days later.

You'll have to use the tapering link for mirtazapine, to figure out how to get a dose of 25 mg from what you have on hand.

Good idea too, to keep fastidious notes when making any kind of drug change.

Did I have you do NOTES yet? This kind of format is good when you share them here:

Using Dr. Glenmullen's checklist to track symptom pattern and progress

You'll see a sample note in the first post of what I am talking about, also called a drug and symptom diary sometimes. Really helpful to see what happens before and after each drug.

And you are taking ALL those supplement listed in one of your above posts? That's a lot. Were some just started recently with the upsweep of anxiety? Did you look them all up here or elsewhere to see if they made any sense in light of your WD status? We can be really sensitive to things the normies, drug virgins are not. So I might, if it was me.......begin a re-evaluation of supplements as soon as possible too.

I'm scurrying lately.......travel and other committments, and so no time to do that for you. I'll be checking in but likely just on read only for about a week now. Just so you know. I know I linked you to our main topic on supplements.......hoping you would explore.

Hope today is a good one. And ask right here, if you need help with figuring out dosing with the mirtazapine......or just need support on that. I wouldn't delay much longer on seeing how a 5 mg taper goes with the mirtazapine, if it goes well.........well then, you can back down further after another week or too. And maybe that has increased your anxiety some, that increased dose. Alto knows her stuff. And don't expect that your prescriber will always be in agreement with you, or with any new found ideas you have.

Okay.

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

And I am seeing some excellent non-drug, non-supplement coping skills that you practice.

Here is one topic we have here regarding the: Vagus Nerve Stimulation

How is that going? Do you notice some relief in symptoms after using it?

Now's a very good time to find out what helps and what does not, with symptoms and with daily functioning. Even with the best well planned tapers, there can sometimes be symptoms to cope with as well as Windows and Waves.

Edited October 19, 2023 by manymoretodays
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Motherdragon Newbie - Very Anxious Coming Off Venlafaxine

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