holinurse: Worse on the meds or without them? (Getting through and finding yourself somewhere)

[holinurse]

I apologize if my thoughts come across fragmented. I have been feeling uncomfrotable and confused, to say the least. I have much to share but I will try to keep this focused. 

I recently "gave in" and chose to take something pharmaceutical to address the chronic insomnia I have been blessed with. This was about 9 months after getting off mirtazapine (8/23), something I stopped because of planned medicine work with psilocybin (8/23). While for most of the time since the psilocybin sessions I did experience difficulty staying asleep, it is not a new experience for me; I endured insomnia the months leading up to my return to mirtazapine (6/22), which is why I went back on it after being off for 10 months. For the most part (and I am open to discussing this and tyring to make sense out of this in fleshing it out), pyschedelics have supported me feeling better though they (specifically ketamine) did not come without challenges. The psilocybin sessions of last summer had enduring noticeable positive effects that lasted 8 months. Specifically, I had access to an inner glow and a sense that life is good just because I am alive. It actually helped realize how intensely depressed my baseline had been. Without getting into that story and psychelics, in general, right now, I want to just put out there that I am having an absolutely difficult time with/in myself. There is profound moodiness, incredible inner criticism, shame (that I am where I am in life), confusion (feels "body" generated rather than externally generated) and rumination. The rumination part is a longtime experience. 

More recently, I began seeing a psychiatrist with a more notable inegrative approach. He openly speaks about avoiding antidepressants whenever possible and addressing other overlooked areas of wellness as a way to improve mental health. I specfically sought him out because I wanted to work on the sleep issue from a holistic perspective and avoid meds if possible. However, after following his suggestions and adding a few supplements to my exisiting regimen, I could not get my sleep to noticeably improve and took him up on the offer to try a pharmaceutical. I briefly returned to mirtazapine (starting at 7.5, going up to 15 and then back to 7.5) for a few weeks, but stopped it because of how I felt with it (confusion, irritability of a certain quality) and my desire to return to psychedelic work -something I cannot do without a month washout period in between- before the end of the summer. I am now trying hydroxyzine for sleep with partial results (longer sleep than without any med but inconsistent REM sleep improvement).  I feel precarious -as I have for 3+ months now- and feel like this experience is more difficult than what I have faced in the past. I feel resentful...so resentful at G-d, life, myself and everyone around me. 

Can you relate? What is helping you? What can you trust within yourself to know who you really are in way that you can have some self-(re)assurance that the other uncomfortable parts are going to dissapear and that the you that you know (and want to be, have been albeitly imprefectly) will return? (I know this last sentence may not make so much sense)

[Erimus]

Hello, and welcome to Surviving Antidepressants. We are a peer support forum to assist in tapering off psychiatric drugs safely, or recovering from psychiatric drug withdrawal.

 

This topic is for anything relating to you, and any questions you have. Please do not start another topic.

 

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From my observations it appears that you have been attempting to treat insomnia with various psychiatric drugs and psychotropics over the last two decades, bouncing from treatment to treatment in search of an escape to your insomnia. I don't think you will ever find solace in this practice. You won't ever achieve perfect sleep if you are under the influence of medication, that's a consequence of these drugs.

 

It is possible that medication is contributing to your insomnia after 20 years of exposure. To me it seems you are chasing a synthetic cure when the solution is avoidance of chemicals.

 

I am assuming you haven't always suffered from insomnia, and that at some point something happened which got you stuck in this loop.

[LotusRising]

23 hours ago, holinurse said:

the you that you know (and want to be, have been albeitly imprefectly) will return?

 

I agree with Erimus that it seems you are chasing a solution in the form of medication, when the medication itself might be at least part of the problem. In response to your questions above, I would ask if you really know the you that you know. It looks like you've been on some form of medication since 2004, which is a very long time. Have you considered that you are blunting your true self with medication?

 

23 hours ago, holinurse said:

Can you relate? What is helping you? What can you trust within yourself to know who you really are in way that you can have some self-(re)assurance that the other uncomfortable parts are going to dissapear

I trust that I'm meant to be who I am and work at accepting all the parts of myself that I was covering up with medication. And I work at unlearning all the things that western medicine and society as a whole has taught me about what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. 

 

23 hours ago, holinurse said:

However, after following his suggestions and adding a few supplements to my exisiting regimen,

How long did you follow his suggestions? 

[holinurse]

On 7/17/2024 at 3:00 PM, LotusRising said:

 

Quote

I agree with Erimus that it seems you are chasing a solution in the form of medication, when the medication itself might be at least part of the problem.

Thank you for replying and sharing of yourself. While you may come to the conclusion that I am "chasing" a solution in the form of medication from the what I have shared, it feels presumptuous to hear that. You are not aware of the time and money exhausted on therapy and trying to be better, do better ...to feel better. When I first started pursuing help in the form of a psychotropic, it was after experiencing physical symptoms that could otherwise not be explained by other physical illness or pathology...and the symptoms themselves -primarily the sensation that I am being choked- was pointedly debilitating. Up until that point (age 23), I resonated with the notion of "mind over matter", and therefore had a sense of failure once resorting to meds. While I do believe that it is possible I could have addressed some of the debilitating choking sensation and accompanying anxiety with alternatives using a holistic approach (for example, breathwork), it was not offered nor known by whomever I sought out for help.
 

Quote

In response to your questions above, I would ask if you really know the you that you know. It looks like you've been on some form of medication since 2004, which is a very long time. Have you considered that you are blunting your true self with medication?

When it comes to knowing who or what experiences of self are me ie which phenomenology feels "right" or "at home" with the self, I think I have alwas gone with whatever version or collection of versions (of self) that were functional, flowing and productive. It is when things don't feel right that I am questioning what the f___ is going on with me or the world that I am experiencing. I know this may not sound profound or provide much more than I already said, but there are clear differences regardless of being on or off meds that are marked by confusion, haziness, depersonalization. (The place that I am currently in makes writing this seem imprecise and difficult)

Quote

I trust that I'm meant to be who I am and work at accepting all the parts of myself that I was covering up with medication. And I work at unlearning all the things that western medicine and society as a whole has taught me about what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. 
 

 

How long did you follow his suggestions? 

 

The capacity to feel self-compassionate, which I think is necessary to "accept" parts of myself does not appear to be available to me. Right now, it feels like I am just barely surviving within myself. A few years back I discovered the voice of self-compassion.....it is something that comes with a tenderness toward self and a kind of disbelief in the otherwise manner that we are treating/talking to ourselves ie "do you really think that you are going to improve __________ when the tone you take is one of admonishment and critique?" or "Have you realized how much you rely on stories of inadequacy to drive change?"

I followed his suggestions after pursuing a variety of herbal, amino acids, supplements over a 10 months that did not provide any consistently noticeable benefit. He suggested magnesium l-threonate, a CBD/CBN/melatonin gummy and a combo adaptogen product. I had already been trying l-threonate beforehand and quit because the rebound from it (and possible depression the day after) felt more noticeable than the trivial benefits from it. I did try his, though, for a few weeks. I tried the gummies for a few days. I took the adaptogens for a month without any noticeable effect. 

[E123]

On 7/16/2024 at 12:19 PM, holinurse said:

I apologize if my thoughts come across fragmented. I have been feeling uncomfrotable and confused, to say the least. I have much to share but I will try to keep this focused. 

I recently "gave in" and chose to take something pharmaceutical to address the chronic insomnia I have been blessed with. This was about 9 months after getting off mirtazapine (8/23), something I stopped because of planned medicine work with psilocybin (8/23). While for most of the time since the psilocybin sessions I did experience difficulty staying asleep, it is not a new experience for me; I endured insomnia the months leading up to my return to mirtazapine (6/22), which is why I went back on it after being off for 10 months. For the most part (and I am open to discussing this and tyring to make sense out of this in fleshing it out), pyschedelics have supported me feeling better though they (specifically ketamine) did not come without challenges. The psilocybin sessions of last summer had enduring noticeable positive effects that lasted 8 months. Specifically, I had access to an inner glow and a sense that life is good just because I am alive. It actually helped realize how intensely depressed my baseline had been. Without getting into that story and psychelics, in general, right now, I want to just put out there that I am having an absolutely difficult time with/in myself. There is profound moodiness, incredible inner criticism, shame (that I am where I am in life), confusion (feels "body" generated rather than externally generated) and rumination. The rumination part is a longtime experience. 

More recently, I began seeing a psychiatrist with a more notable inegrative approach. He openly speaks about avoiding antidepressants whenever possible and addressing other overlooked areas of wellness as a way to improve mental health. I specfically sought him out because I wanted to work on the sleep issue from a holistic perspective and avoid meds if possible. However, after following his suggestions and adding a few supplements to my exisiting regimen, I could not get my sleep to noticeably improve and took him up on the offer to try a pharmaceutical. I briefly returned to mirtazapine (starting at 7.5, going up to 15 and then back to 7.5) for a few weeks, but stopped it because of how I felt with it (confusion, irritability of a certain quality) and my desire to return to psychedelic work -something I cannot do without a month washout period in between- before the end of the summer. I am now trying hydroxyzine for sleep with partial results (longer sleep than without any med but inconsistent REM sleep improvement).  I feel precarious -as I have for 3+ months now- and feel like this experience is more difficult than what I have faced in the past. I feel resentful...so resentful at G-d, life, myself and everyone around me. 

Can you relate? What is helping you? What can you trust within yourself to know who you really are in way that you can have some self-(re)assurance that the other uncomfortable parts are going to dissapear and that the you that you know (and want to be, have been albeitly imprefectly) will return? (I know this last sentence may not make so much sense)

I can empathize with you.  I have been off the antidepressant for 1+ years and stuck in this disaster of protracted WD. First I have never had an issue with sleep in my life. In this withdrawal process I was put back on gabapentin by my PC as I went months getting 1-2 hours a night and watching myself deteriorate from lack of sleep.  The medication cure is obviously not ideal but as a coach also once said to me "you have to be able to live". I had tried everything starting with the relaxation exercises, yoga nidra, on and on, eventually to supplements, and then to multiple failed sleep med trials. I even went to Costa Rica on an Iboga Retreat as there was some evidence that this plant medicine can reset your sleep cycle and address other things that come with a medication dependence. The experience was great but did nothing for my sleep and they actually had to medicate me to sleep when I was there. Struggling with WD is bad enough but to be on the edge of losing everything, which was the road I was going down, due to an inability to sleep is definitely not ok. I was disappointed and resentful having to take the Gabapentin again; felt like it was some sort of failure, as I had gotten off it, wasn't even taking it for sleep to begin with, and its not even a sleep med. However, I am now able to get 4-5 hours which is not the best but keeps me functioning and allows me to keep working. I know there is a lot of push back and what can feel like shaming using medication to manage symptoms of withdrawal. We cannot function without sleep and I believe there are times one has to do what you need to do to be as ok as possible through this. I hope this helped some.

[holinurse]

On 8/21/2024 at 1:47 PM, E123 said:

Quote

I can empathize with you.  I have been off the antidepressant for 1+ years and stuck in this disaster of protracted WD. First I have never had an issue with sleep in my life. In this withdrawal process I was put back on gabapentin by my PC as I went months getting 1-2 hours a night and watching myself deteriorate from lack of sleep.  The medication cure is obviously not ideal but as a coach also once said to me "you have to be able to live". I had tried everything starting with the relaxation exercises, yoga nidra, on and on, eventually to supplements, and then to multiple failed sleep med trials. I even went to Costa Rica on an Iboga Retreat as there was some evidence that this plant medicine can reset your sleep cycle and address other things that come with a medication dependence. The experience was great but did nothing for my sleep and they actually had to medicate me to sleep when I was there. Struggling with WD is bad enough but to be on the edge of losing everything, which was the road I was going down, due to an inability to sleep is definitely not ok. I was disappointed and resentful having to take the Gabapentin again; felt like it was some sort of failure, as I had gotten off it, wasn't even taking it for sleep to begin with, and its not even a sleep med. However, I am now able to get 4-5 hours which is not the best but keeps me functioning and allows me to keep working. I know there is a lot of push back and what can feel like shaming using medication to manage symptoms of withdrawal. We cannot function without sleep and I believe there are times one has to do what you need to do to be as ok as possible through this. I hope this helped some.
 

Thank you for replying to my post. I value it as I was hoping and expecting more of an exchange here. 🙏

I resonate with "you have to be able to live". At the same time, there is a principled (?) or stubborn part of me that cannot or will not consider returning to meds...it's like a standstill and feels impossible to compromise. I think what makes this conflict that much more exhausting is the consideration that the potential inflexiblity on this is a result of the OCD/perfecfionism/black or white thinking that would be a significant focus of any intervention that I am pursuing -be it pharmaceuticals or otherwise. So it is like...."I can't take anything conventional because it will ultimately set me back and cause other issues" BUT "if I wasn't so stuck in this black and white thinking, I can take something to take off the edge and be more functional now". WTF!

I also resonate with your pursuit of using plant medicine in your journey to improve and heal. Without knowing more, I would have reasoned that sleep improvement from any psychedelic plant medicine would be a result of the improved mental health/emotinoal wellness recovery rather than a direct outcome or the agent. Regardless, it is encouraging that you are getting 4-5 hrs now. I have been able to get 6-7 lately using a combo of hydroxyzine, nanoemulsified CBD/CBG/anandamide, passionflower and inconsistent use of melatonin/CBD/CBN gummies. However, the effects do not feel significantly robust, and therefore, once work starts again it may not be enough to give me that much sleep or good quality sleep (related to the "night before" apprehension). It is strange bec one night last week I had 2.5 hrs of REM (according to my Whoop wearable), which never happens/never happened since I have been monitoring my sleep with the Whoop. 

Anyway, I would like to share about my recent psilo session but will head to bed since I have a full day of virtual training tomorrow. I look forward to connecting more.

-Gershon

 

[E123]

On 8/26/2024 at 8:00 PM, holinurse said:

 

Would love to connect on how your experiences with psilo and how it has impacted your withdrawal process and symptoms. I too have been using psilo journeys to manage some things and have found it helpful. We may have to discuss it further through private messaging however. Not sure how that works with this site