Michael444- Getting off Effexor MY WAY -- in my retirement years

[Michael444]

As a 65-year-old retiree who's been on ineffective antidepressants for decades, I decided to devote the first year or two of my retirement to getting off all Big Pharma drugs completely, especially the high dose of Effexor that I am taking daily.   I have my own plan, which to me makes perfect sense, psychologically speaking.  I was surprised to find, however, that everybody seems to think that doctors are the experts in deciding what would work best for me.  Sure, they should have some input, but surely I myself am the expert when it comes to what I think would work.

That's why I have a two-step process that I plan to follow:

 

1) Tapering Effexor by miniscule but identical amounts daily over the course of one year, until I have completely stopped the drug after 365 days.

2) Micro-dosing with psilocybin.  (This is a common sense step, because psilocybin boosts one's resolve to follow through: I have experienced this effect after using the substance at the psilocybin center in Oregon -- a very expensive psilocybin center in Oregon.)

 

This post is NOT about micro-dosing, however, but rather the problem that I'm having trouble finding a doctor who will authorize the compounding of Effexor in the way that I believe would work for me.  I just do not believe that doctors are the authorities in this area.  I know better than they do how I would feel about any given withdrawal process, and my feelings matter, because they could cause me to give up on the whole idea of withdrawing.  I can already tell them that if they reduce my dose immediately by 10 mg (or 37.5 mg as my doctor wants to do), I would immediately associate all negative feelings with that reduction, whether the reduction "really" caused them or not.  On the other hand, with my method, if I reduced every day's dose by just 1/365th of a milligram, I would never associate any specific reduction with negative feelings.

 

This is just psychological common sense. Yet I can't find any psychiatrist who thinks this way.  They think in terms of scientific findings, not their client's feelings about the world.  Besides, it's much easier for them to do things the way they always have -- and we know the terrible recidivism rate associated with the status quo: 95% after three years for long-term users, according to my previous psychiatrist (whom I believe was fired for being so frank with me on that topic).

 

My practical question is: where can I find a psychiatrist who will do what I want when it comes to compounding Effexor?  (Again, my own doctor says he's never heard of such a thing and would not even consider it.)

 

Thanks.

 

PS So far I've found only one possibility: a place called Free Range Psychiatry.  I paid $95 for a 15-minute session. They gave me the sense that they would compound the drug as I wished -- but I'd have to pay $800 for a one-hour session to find out -- and god knows how many other sessions they would require.  

Edited August 8 by Catwoman73
Name to title

[Catwoman73]

Hi @Michael444, and welcome to SA!  We are a community of volunteers providing peer support in the tapering of psychiatric medications, and their associated withdrawal syndromes. 

 

If you could kindly complete your drug signature, describing your history with psychiatric medications, and any supplements you might be taking, we would appreciate it.  To do so, please click on the following link, fill in the box with your history, and click save.  That's it!  The signature can be updated as you proceed to reflect the changes you have made.  Signatures are important so that when we visit your thread, we can see where you have been at a glance, so we can know best how to advise you. Have a peek at my drug signature at the bottom of this post to see the general format.

 

Your Drug Signature

 

You are correct, doctors are not the foremost authorities on tapering.  Sadly, their guidance often leaves people with severe withdrawal symptoms that sometimes lasts for many years.  There are only a handful of doctors that truly understand withdrawal science.  And yes, they all cost a fair bit of money!  This is why sites like this exist- to provide correct information, and empower people to make decisions for themselves.  

 

Your plan to taper slowly is a good one.  However I want to provide you with some information that might help you see that there are a couple of potential downsides with your plan.  First of all, here a  thread you should read regarding how these medications affect our brains.  This will help you understand the other information that is to come:

 

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

 

Because of the changes that occur in our brains, particularly with respect to us long-term users, here at SA, we recommend tapering our dosage by no more than 10% of the current dose, no more often than every four weeks.  This is known as hyperbolic tapering, and is designed to minimize withdrawal symptoms.  Read more here on the importance of tapering with this method, and on what to expect regarding withdrawal:

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

What is withdrawal syndrome?

 Daily Checklist of Antidepressant Withdrawal Symptoms (PDF) 

 

My concern with your plan specifically, is that daily drops could catch up to you.  You may tolerate this for a while- even many months- but at some point, you could get hit with very bad withdrawal symptoms.  Microtapering methods do exist however- however they typically do involve longer holds.  Here are a couple of links to info on traditional micro tapering, and to a method we are all fond of here, known as the Brassmonkey slide method of tapering.  This is the method I am currently using.  Review these and see if perhaps one of them would suit you:

 

Microtaper Instad of 10 or 5% Decreases

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

Here are our tips for tapering off of Effexor specifically.  You CAN do this without the support of a physician by following these and the above tips- many people here have successfully tapered, completely on their own.

 

Tips for Tapering off Effexor

 

You may also find that all of the above methods are a little bit more forgiving that trying to accurately drop 1/365th of a mg daily- that kind of accuracy can be very difficult to attain.  

 

While tapering, no matter what method you choose, you will have good and bad days/weeks.  This is a normal part of the healing process, and we refer to it as the windows and waves pattern of stabilization.  Read more about this here:

 

Windows and waves pattern of stabilization

 

It is important to give your brain and body the best possible environment to facilitate healing.  This can be accomplished by eating a healthy, whole foods diet, getting adequate hydration, gentle exercise, adequate rest, and avoiding stress as much as possible.  

 

Withdrawal symptoms can be very difficult to deal with.  We strongly recommend a non-drug approach to coping with symptoms- using things like meditation, mindfulness, calming music- anything that calms the nervous system, really.  Here are a few links to various coping mechanisms that we recommend here for your review:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

"Change the channel" - dealing with cognitive symptoms

 

We strongly recommend against using any psychoactive substances, including other psychiatric medications or psychedelics, to deal with the effects of withdrawing from other psychiatric medications.  With respect to psych meds- using them to mitigate withdrawal symptoms simply sets up a situation where you are forced to taper another medication, thereby prolonging your withdrawal journey.  Using psychedelics can be a risky venture as well- I think they could be beneficial once your brain is no longer destabilized by the tapering of psychiatric meds, but it could be problematic during your taper.  Read more here so you are fully informed:

 

Psychedelic Mushrooms, Ayahuasca and Other Hallucinogens

 

With respect to supplements, we only recommend two here- magnesium and omega-3 fatty acids.  Be mindful though- while tapering, it is very common to become hypersensitized to all sorts of things- medications, supplements and even foods.  It is best when introducing anything new to start with a low dose, and titrate upwards very slowly. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Overall, I think you are very wise to want to take things very slowly with your taper.  I wanted to be sure to offer you some options that you could try without having to find a doctor to support your journey.  If you really would like to have a doctor supporting you, we do have a thread on recommended doctors and clinics- perhaps you could find someone suitable here:

 

Recommended Doctors, Therapists and Clinics

 

Finally, congratulations on your decision to taper!  You are in good company here!

 

This is your introduction topic- each member gets one introduction topic.  Please post any updates, questions and concerns here.  But don't hesitate to explore the rest of the forum, and engage with other members by commenting and offering words of support on the intro topics of others.  This journey is much easier when you have support from those who understand! 

[Michael444]

I have to disagree with you about psilocybin. It is a time-honored medicine going back millennia.  I invite you to watch the video with Paul Stamets on this topic. The problem is that materialist science is extremely conservative and almost completely ignores anecdote and history, the history of positive drug use for positive reasons.  The effects of psilocybin read like a "wish list" for the feelings that you would want a person to have who's withdrawing from a drug.  And yet the drug war has taught us to think of psilocybin as just another "drug," and so it's thought to be a mistake to use another "drug" while attempting to get off Effexor. 

 

I already have experience with the drug and its motivational power.  It works for me.  It motivated me to start  a diary for the first time in my life, which I am now keeping daily.  

 

Besides, "the heart has its own reasons," as Pascal once said.  I can tell you with 100% certainty that I will never get off Effexor unaided, no matter how many plans I try for yoga, or supplements, or jogging, or breathwork.  Been there, done that FOR 65 YEARS!!!   Yoga and breathwork are great -- and they are something I would be likely to do more of with the help of psilocybin -- but my whole life testifies against the idea that such "non-drug" activities will help me accomplish my goals by themselves.

 

I was surprised also to read that 1/365th decreases would possibly be going too fast!  But if pauses are needed in the process, I can adjust the schedule so that there are a series of days in which the dose does not decrease.  You say that these small increments may be hard to work with, but isn't that what compounding chemists are paid to do?

 

I have written hundreds of essays on this topic.  I forget sometimes that the mainstream is still far behind the curve on this.  But mainstream science is part of the problem these days.  Mainstream scientists are letting progress proceed at a snail's pace by demanding that holistic drugs like psilocybin pass all sorts of safety standards while completely ignoring the fact that they have been used successfully for millennia.  Mainstream science is great at coming up with reasons why we cannot use such drugs, but they are horrible when it comes to acknowledging drug benefits.  That's why MDMA is still illegal.  The FDA keeps finding tiny potential problems while completely ignoring the fact that MDMA brought peace, love and understanding to the British dance floors in the 1990s.  For the FDA, that is no "benefit" -- and yet we let them do a cost/benefit analysis about MDMA drug approval?

 

The assumption of westerners seems to be that psilocybin is just another drug and should be scorned -- or at least put on hold indefinitely while science picks it apart.  I believe with Paul Stamets, however, that psilocybin is a game changer.  It makes perfect sense to use its demonstrated micro-dosing power to vaccinate oneself psychologically for the process of withdrawal from Effexor.  I'm going to try this, though if I'm going to get support, I think I will have to find a site where there is a greater appreciation of the transformative power of holistic medicines, and a refusal to consider them as "drugs" in the evil sense of that word.

 

Thanks for your ideas, though.  The microdosing advice looks helpful, but we'll have to agree to disagree on much of the rest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Catwoman73]

You do you, my friend!  My job here is to provide you with the information that has been given to us by experts specifically in the field of tapering psychiatric medications.  What you do with the information is entirely up to you!  I do hope you take the time to read the provided threads- we just want to make sure you are fully informed when making decisions. 

 

Like I said, I do believe in the utility of psilocybin.  Absolutely, without a doubt.  When the nervous system is in a stable state, though.  My point is that tapering disturbs the nervous system, and can make the effects of many things unpredictable.  I used to use marijuana regularly to deal with anxiety with wonderful effects, but since I started tapering, it causes me to have full-blown blackouts, and lands me in the ER.  Hell, I can't even drink chamomile tea anymore without having a nasty histamine response!  As I previously stated, it is not uncommon during tapering to become hypersensitive to many things.  So whatever you choose to do, I would recommend moving very slowly, in case your reaction during the tapering process is not what you expect. 

 

So I don't think we disagree on the psilocybin point necessarily- I think I have just seen what happens to people when messing with their nervous systems during tapering from my time here (myself included), and extreme caution is warranted. 

 

As for psilocybin being time-honoured and going back millennia- yes, absolutely true.  But the use of psychiatric drugs, and tapering science is NOT that old.  And the interaction between the two can be very unpredictable.  That is my only point to you.  If this is your plan, I would proceed very cautiously.  I sincerely hope it works out for you!  Do keep us updated.

[Michael444]

Thanks. I do realize that any drug withdrawal protocol has its risks -- and I'm not writing in order to recommend my own strategy for anyone else... unless they come to my own conclusions based on their own life experience and the kind of intensive and ongoing research that I myself have been doing and continue to do.  I should add, however, that it is hard to research these topics because so much that's written out there is written from the point of view of drug warriors or the government, who only ever see the potential downsides of drugs and never even acknowledge their upsides. That's why we have a National Institute on Drug Abuse rather than a National Institute on Drug Use, because the government specializes in finding ways that drugs are bad for you, not in finding ways that they are good for you.

 

But, of course, the status quo is dangerous as well. If one remains on these antidepressants, or fails to get off them, they run the risk of committing suicide or at best living a life which never maximizes their true potential. But again, those are downsides that the FDA never takes into account-- but they are very real downsides for all that.  When the FDA outlaws MDMA, for instance, they never consider the soldiers with PTSD who are suffering silently in their homes.

 

My main point is this:

 

There is what we philosophers call a "prima facie" case to be made that psilocybin microdosing could help with the withdrawal process.  In other words, given what we now know about the motivational power of microdosing, it is common sense that microdosing might help one "stay the course" in the withdrawal process -- especially a withdrawal process that has proven so difficult, statistically speaking, when undertaken by itself without such help.  That latter approach is all stick and no carrot, psychologically speaking.

 

If it does not work, I will be unpleasantly surprised, but we will at least then have proof of one approach that has failed.  My experience of using psilocybin while on Effexor, however, shows that psilocybin does indeed have extremely obvious mood-elevating effects for me, even when somewhat muted by the Effexor.   A few researchers have reported problems with serotonin syndrome caused by combining antidepressants and psychedelics, but these are extremely rare downsides, statistically speaking, and even dubious, in my view.  I have tried to follow up on the research without much success.  At the risk of being paranoid, I wonder if Big Pharma is not promoting this serotonin syndrome narrative in order to keep people from getting off their money-making drugs.  Stamets himself has said that drugs like psilocybin pose an existential threat to the pharmaceutical industry.

 

I have even read some research that suggests that antidepressants may permanently "disqualify" the brain from fully responding to psychedelics.  I do not think that is true (and I hope and pray that it is not), but if it is, it is just another reason why antidepressants are horrible. Imagine a drug that makes your brain permanently unable to benefit from Mother Nature's godsend plants and fungi.

 

Now, if someone truly believed in the power of jogging, say, and had plenty of time on their hands, I am sure that such a person could possibly get off Effexor by jogging and thus keeping their mind off negative drug effects.  But that's not me, as you point out.  Also, the more that I learn about psilocybin, the more I would question the approach of simply jogging -- since it may not truly empower the jogger to be all that they might have been in life.  They may indeed get off Effexor, but the real question is: do they end up living as full a life as possible, with as many neurons firing as possible and with as much creative thinking as possible?  Many programmers in Silicon Valley use psilocybin microdosing to stay ahead of the competition, psychologically speaking.  They could live without psilocybin and that abstention would not cause withdrawal symptoms... but they choose to use the substance as we use vitamins in order to be all that they can be in life. Stamets even mentions a boxer whose boxing precision has improved thanks to the neuroplasticity promoted by microdosing on psilocybin.

 

Also, psilocybin is not addictive so there is no concern (for me, anyway) about getting off that drug.  Meanwhile, getting off Effexor would have knock-on benefits: it would make me eligible for OTHER holistic indigenous therapies, especially ayahuasca.

 

 I should add here that I am not intentionally ignoring scientific concerns about combining drugs.  Rather, I am evaluating them and making up my own mind by weighing the known risks against the known benefits in light of my own particular situation and personality.  I would NOT, for instance, combine ayahuasca and antidepressants.   I am not completely convinced that this would represent a huge danger, but I do see it as an unnecessary risk at this point, in light of the existence of gentler psychedelic and pharmacologically less complex meds such as psilocybin and San Pedro cactus, etc.

 

To change the topic slightly, I am finding it very frustrating trying to get the compounding that I want, or something close to it based on suggestions here and elsewhere.  I contacted a D.C. doctor who was listed on the Mad in America website, and he told me he had no time to add another patient. From my point of view, that was a bit of a non sequitur.  I don't want a new doctor-patient relationship, I just need a few prescriptions.  And at age 65, when I am twice the age of most such doctors, I feel completely infantilized to have to set up yet another "relationship" just to have a drug compounded in the way that I prefer.  I think given my age, I am in a unique position to observe the disempowering aspect of being dependent on antidepressants, a demoralizing force that is seldom if ever even acknowledged.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8 by Michael444
should have said "I am TWICE the age," not "I am HALF the age"

[Catwoman73]

4 hours ago, Michael444 said:

  I should add, however, that it is hard to research these topics because so much that's written out there is written from the point of view of drug warriors or the government, who only ever see the potential downsides of drugs and never even acknowledge their upsides. 

 

 

 

Actually, it's not as hard as it used to be to do this research.  There are lots of independent studies out there that support the use of the hyperbolic tapering methods that we recommend here.  In fact, we have a whole thread dedicated to providing links to scientific material on psychiatric drug withdrawal.  Here it is:

 

Important Topics in Journals and Scientific Sources

 

4 hours ago, Michael444 said:

But, of course, the status quo is dangerous as well. If one remains on these antidepressants, or fails to get off them, they run the risk of committing suicide or at best living a life which never maximizes their true potential. But again, those are downsides that the FDA never takes into account-- but they are very real downsides for all that.  When the FDA outlaws MDMA, for instance, they never consider the soldiers with PTSD who are suffering silently in their homes.

 

We are all too aware of the dangers of remaining on antidepressants, and the agenda of the pharmaceutical industry- that's why we're all here, many of us tapering without our doctors' knowledge or blessing.  Many of us have suffered a lifetime of negative effects from these drugs.  

 

4 hours ago, Michael444 said:

There is what we philosophers call a "prima facie" case to be made that psilocybin microdosing could help with the withdrawal process.  In other words, given what we now know about the motivational power of microdosing, it is common sense that microdosing might help one "stay the course" in the withdrawal process -- especially a withdrawal process that has proven so difficult, statistically speaking, when undertaken by itself without such help.  That latter approach is all stick and no carrot, psychologically speaking.

 

If it does not work, I will be unpleasantly surprised, but we will at least then have proof of one approach that has failed.  My experience of using psilocybin while on Effexor, however, shows that psilocybin does indeed have extremely obvious mood-elevating effects for me, even when somewhat muted by the Effexor.   A few researchers have reported problems with serotonin syndrome caused by combining antidepressants and psychedelics, but these are extremely rare downsides, statistically speaking, and even dubious, in my view.  I have tried to follow up on the research without much success.  At the risk of being paranoid, I wonder if Big Pharma is not promoting this serotonin syndrome narrative in order to keep people from getting off their money-making drugs.  Stamets himself has said that drugs like psilocybin pose an existential threat to the pharmaceutical industry.

 

 

 

Of course you can make a case for it.  And maybe someday, we'll find out that this is THE way to get off of these drugs.  But for now, we don't have that information.  The only information we have at this time is that neurologically active substances (including caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, etc) while in withdrawal can be very destabilizing.  We know this from scientific literature, and we know this anecdotally from the thousands of stories on this site.  Psilocybin is an unknown quantity.  Yes, you had a good experience while your nervous system was on a stable dose of Effexor.  That does NOT mean that your nervous system will respond favourably while TAPERING.  Those are VERY different situations.  Your nervous system will become progressively less stable as you taper, particularly without any holds added into the mix, and when you get to really low doses, this effect is amplified significantly due to the SERT occupancy curves of these drugs.  Read more here on SERT occupancy:

 

Why Taper?  SERT Transporter Occupancy Studies Show the Importance of gradual Chance in Plasma Concentration

 

Of course, if you want to be an experiment of n=1, I say go for it!  My only job here is to ensure you have all the information before making that decision. You are the master of your own ship, after all!

 

4 hours ago, Michael444 said:

To change the topic slightly, I am finding it very frustrating trying to get the compounding that I want, or something close to it based on suggestions here and elsewhere.  I contacted a D.C. doctor who was listed on the Mad in America website, and he told me he had no time to add another patient. From my point of view, that was a bit of a non sequitur.  I don't want a new doctor-patient relationship, I just need a few prescriptions.  And at age 65, when I am twice the age of most such doctors, I feel completely infantilized to have to set up yet another "relationship" just to have a drug compounded in the way that I prefer.  

 

 

Very few of us can find doctors to assist us in tapering the way we want to taper.  I can count on one hand the number of withdrawal informed doctors that I am aware of on this PLANET.  So you are not alone there.  That's why most of us do this independently.  I am a lucky exception.  I have a nurse practitioner who fully supports me.  But you will not find a doctor that will just write you the prescriptions you want without having a relationship with you in some capacity.  That's just not the way medicine works, and with good reason.

 

4 hours ago, Michael444 said:

And at age 65, when I am twice the age of most such doctors, I feel completely infantilized to have to set up yet another "relationship" just to have a drug compounded in the way that I prefer.  I think given my age, I am in a unique position to observe the disempowering aspect of being dependent on antidepressants, a demoralizing force that is seldom if ever even acknowledged.

 

 

 

I don't think your age makes you unique in this manner at all.  We have parents on this site whose children are suffering the effects of these drugs.  I myself have been on the drug merry-go-round for 30 years, though I am significantly younger than you are.  If you spent some time reviewing others' intro threads here, I suspect you will see that age is not at all a factor in feeling demoralized and utterly wrecked by what these drugs have done.  

 

Nor does age make you an exception for having to work within the medical system.  Learning to play the game is all part of the process.  Many people here have to lie to their doctors and do their own compounding, because their doctors are so stuck on what big Pharma tells them about these drugs.  It is what it is, and until the medical community starts to catch up to what we as patients know, it will continue to be this way.  Being frustrated and angry doesn't get us any further ahead, but learning to work the system does. 

 

Again- best of luck to you, and keep us updated!

[Michael444]

Thanks for the feedback.  But the whole problem is that science focuses on these downsides to the exclusion of all else.  I do not believe that psilocybin effects are unproven.  That is the materialist point of view.  They are proven by the laughter and achievement and even the religiosity of folks who have used the substance.  I know atheists who are believers after using the substance.

 

You imply that psilocybin is just another drug.  That is just unfair.  Drug warriors want us to think suspiciously of this big man-made category of dangerous "drugs."

The fact that some drugs cause issues is totally irrelevant.

 

It's not that what you say is wrong, it's just that it's all based on science's jaundiced view of "drugs," science's determination to ignore common psychological sense.

 

Dr. Robert Glatter is a typical materialist: he wrote an article in Forbes magazine in 2021 asking if laughing gas could help the depressed.  WHAT?  That's idiotic.  

 

Science makes drug approval extremely slow.

 

Materialists refuse to believe the evidence right before their eyes! that societies have used these drugs positively for ages... and that these substances even tell us something about human consciousness and the meaning of life.  See "The Varieties of Religious Experience" by William James.

 

Scientists are NOT experts when it comes to psychoactive drugs.  HUMANISTS and PHILOSOPHERS and MUSICIANS and RELIGIOUS LEADERS are the experts.  

 

All science can do is tell us of potential physical problems.

 

Drug use is like mountain climbing or driving a car. OF COURSE it has risks.  The Drug War is determined to make us think of drugs as uniquely risky, and that's rot.

 

 I believe in the Mazatec conception of life as best viewed holistically, and I am not going to be held back by scientists who spend their time trying to find reasons why they can ignore the obvious benefits of godsend medicines.

 

This is not some fluke on my part: I'd rather die than stay on this crap and no one's going to convince me that I can't do it the way that makes plain psychological sense.

 

I'd much rather fail at this cause than adopt the materialist view that these drugs are best understood by looking at them through a microscope.

[Catwoman73]

3 hours ago, Michael444 said:

 I do not believe that psilocybin effects are unproven.  

 

Neither do I.  I think I've said it more than once now- I think there is lots of utility in using psilocybin in the context of a nervous system that is STABLE, and I think there's lots and lots of proof out there for that.  My only point is that in the context of a nervous system that is destabilized by tapering psychiatric medications, there is no proof of anything, and it is a risky venture.  Like I said- you are more than welcome to be your own experiment of n=1.  No one is trying to convince you to do anything- I'm not sure where you would get the idea that anyone is trying to convince you not to do things your way.  I'm just providing you with the information that we have right now, and the bottom line is that ALL psychoactive substances, be it natural or otherwise, are unpredictable IN THE CONTEXT OF WITHDRAWAL.  That is the piece that is unknown.  It's not the benefits of psilocybin in general, but the context in which you wish to use it that is concerning.  I hope you take the time to learn exactly how these drugs affect your brain, from its biochemistry, right down to genetic expression, and take all of this into account when making your decisions. I provided links to this information in both of my previous replies.

 

This is what we do here.  We give information and guidance on current best practices in psychiatric drug tapering.  If you don't require advice or support, I'm not sure that you are going to find what you are seeking here.  I can say, without a single doubt, that you won't find anyone here who agrees that, at this time, using psilocybin to try to mitigate withdrawal is a good decision.  From our own vast experience, we at SA have learned that psychoactive substances of all sorts are risky business in withdrawal, and we prefer not to take chances, as withdrawal is crippling enough without added risk.  But like I said, you do with your body absolutely as you wish, and we wish you nothing but the best!  I sincerely hope it works out for you.

[Michael444]

Thanks. I do realize that any drug withdrawal protocol has its risks -- and I'm not writing in order to recommend my own strategy for anyone else... unless they come to my own conclusions based on their own life experience and the kind of intensive and ongoing research that I myself have been doing and continue to do.  I should add, however, that it is hard to research these topics because so much that's written out there is written from the point of view of drug warriors or the government, who only ever see the potential downsides of drugs and never even acknowledge their upsides. That's why we have a National Institute on Drug Abuse rather than a National Institute on Drug Use, because the government specializes in finding ways that drugs are bad for you, not in finding ways that they are good for you.

 

But, of course, the status quo is dangerous as well. If one remains on these antidepressants, or fails to get off of them, they run the risk of committing suicide or at best living a life which never maximizes their true potential. But again, those are downsides that the FDA never takes into account-- but they are very real downsides for all that.  When the FDA outlaws MDMA, for instance, they never consider the soldiers with PTSD who are suffering silently in their homes.

 

My main point is this:

 

There is what we philosophers call a "prima facie" case to be made that psilocybin microdosing could help with  the withdrawal process.  In other words, given what we now know about the motivational power of microdosing, it is common sense that microdosing might help one "stay the course" in the withdrawal process -- especially a withdrawal process that has proven so difficult, statistically speaking, when undertaken by itself without such help.  That latter approach is all stick and no carrot, psychologically speaking.

 

If it does not work, I will be unpleasantly surprised, but we will at least then have proof of one approach that has failed.  My experience of using psilocybin while on Effexor, however, shows that the drug does indeed have extremely obvious mood-elevating effects for me.   

 

Now, if someone truly believed in the power of jogging, say, and had plenty of time on their hands, I am sure that such a person could possibly get off Effexor by jogging and thus keeping their mind off of negative drug effects.  But that's not me, as you point out.  Also, the more that I learn about psilocybin, the more I would question the approach of simply jogging -- since it may not truly empower the jogger to be all that they might have been in life.  They may indeed get off of Effexor, but the real question is: do they end up living as full a life as possible, with as many neurons firing as possible and with as much creative thinking as possible?  

 

Also, psilocybin is not addictive so there is no concern (for me, anyway) about getting off that drug.  Besides, getting off Effexor would make me eligible for OTHER holistic indigenous therapies, such as ayahuasca and San Pedro cactus, both of which can inspire me  (with love and compassion, for starters) without causing addiction.  Now, I may decide to keep microdosing on psilocybin for life, but I see no problem with that.  In fact, Paul Stamets basically recommends it.  It is just like taking a vitamin every day, except that this vitamin helps grow new neurons in the brain and to expand one's power for compassion and creative thinking.  

 

Of course anything may be psychologically addictive, anything at all.  But psilocybin's intoxicating effects quickly disappear when one takes the drug daily.  Studies show, however, that the positive psychological effects continue, as the drug continues to promote neurogenesis.

 

To change the topic slightly, I am finding it very frustrating trying to get the compounding that I want, or something close to it based on suggestions here and elsewhere.  I contacted a D.C. doctor who was listed on the Mad in America website and he told me he had no time to add another patient. From my point of view, that was a bit of a non sequitur. I'm an adult, after all, with a lifetime of experience on these drugs.  I don't want a new doctor-patient relationship, I just need a few prescriptions.  And at age 65, when I am half the age of most such doctors, I feel completely infantilized to have to set up yet another "relationship" just in order to have a drug compounded in the way that I prefer.  I think given my age, I am in a unique position to observe the disempowering aspect of being dependent on antidepressants, a demoralizing force that is seldom if ever even acknowledged.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael444]

With all due respect...

 

I thought I had made it clear in my original post that I did not come here to discuss my plan to use psilocybin, let alone to have it picked apart line by line. My psychiatrist has already done all he can to discourage me from taking such a common sense step (the same psychiatrist whose colleagues got me hooked on this stuff in the first place). I was asking how on earth I could find a psychiatrist who would have Effexor compounded in a way that made sense to ME, preferably without charging me through the roof for that privilege.

[Catina7]

11 minutes ago, Michael444 said:

how on earth I could find a psychiatrist who would have Effexor compounded in a way that made sense to ME, preferably without charging me through the roof for that privilege.

 

Unfortunately, specialized compounding costs money since (as you know) it's not covered by insurance, and it's going to be difficult to find a psychiatrist to write a script for exactly what you want.  I'm not sure what type of Effexor you're taking since your signature is not completed for your profile on the site.  I take Effexor XR and my capsules contain many tiny beads, which allows me to taper very slowly and exactly how I want.  The link that was given about how to taper Effexor contains tried and true methods, so you may want to consider it if you can't execute your desired plan.

 

I wish you all the best and hope things go smoothly for you!  

[Ariel]

Hi @Michael444

 

Welcome to SA. 

 

23 hours ago, Catwoman73 said:

Overall, I think you are very wise to want to take things very slowly with your taper.  I wanted to be sure to offer you some options that you could try without having to find a doctor to support your journey.  If you really would like to have a doctor supporting you, we do have a thread on recommended doctors and clinics- perhaps you could find someone suitable here:

 

Recommended Doctors, Therapists and Clinics

 

Finally, congratulations on your decision to taper!  You are in good company here!

 

In Catwoman's first post welcoming you to SA, she linked to the thread above. Have you had a chance to check it out? 

It features a list of withdrawal-savvy, tapering-friendly providers. 

 

23 hours ago, Catwoman73 said:

If you could kindly complete your drug signature, describing your history with psychiatric medications, and any supplements you might be taking, we would appreciate it.  To do so, please click on the following link, fill in the box with your history, and click save.  That's it!  The signature can be updated as you proceed to reflect the changes you have made.  Signatures are important so that when we visit your thread, we can see where you have been at a glance, so we can know best how to advise you. Have a peek at my drug signature at the bottom of this post to see the general format.

 

Your Drug Signature

 

Could you please complete your drug signature? Instructions linked in post quoted above. 

 

Take care, good luck!

Ariel

[Catwoman73]

2 hours ago, Michael444 said:

With all due respect...

 

I thought I had made it clear in my original post that I did not come here to discuss my plan to use psilocybin, let alone to have it picked apart line by line. My psychiatrist has already done all he can to discourage me from taking such a common sense step (the same psychiatrist whose colleagues got me hooked on this stuff in the first place). I was asking how on earth I could find a psychiatrist who would have Effexor compounded in a way that made sense to ME, preferably without charging me through the roof for that privilege.

 

You have come to a forum where we, as moderators, provide tapering advice and support.  We have vast experience and knowledge of these topics.  When someone posts a plan that could be detrimental to their success in getting off these drugs, it is absolutely our job to provide the necessary information to ensure you are fully informed before proceeding.  You included the information regarding your plan to use psilocybin, so it's my job to point out the potential downfalls, and make sure you fully understand them.  That's all I'm doing here.  I know you will do as you wish, and that's fine, but all I'm doing is providing information for you to think about.  I would hope, given your age and self-appointed title of philosopher, you would approach this information with curiousity and an open mind.  My mind is absolutely open about the use of psilocybin, even when tapering!  I have always been very curious about its use in processing trauma, and may very well start using it myself someday, once I am off the drugs and stable.  It is an unknown quantity at this time in the context of withdrawal and tapering, and given our extensive knowledge about how other psychoactive substances can negatively impact the tapering journey and withdrawal experience, it's my job to point that out.  If you don't wish to debate it, that's totally fine- just drop it from the discussion.  Because I will continue to respond- it's my job!

 

As for your request for providers, I have sent you a list.  There are very few withdrawal informed providers on the planet, so your options are limited.  And I can't fathom that any of them would just write you prescriptions without taking you on as a patient, and monitoring your taper closely, but you are certainly welcome to try to find one!

 

As Catina and Ariel pointed out, we can provide much more specific guidance if you complete your drug signature, so we know exactly what form of Effexor you are taking.  They come in tablets, capsules, extended and immediate release, and how you proceed is different depending on what form you are taking, and your own preferences moving forward.  It is one of the more challenging drugs to taper, due to its short half life.  I have had a cold turkey experience with Effexor, and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy- so I have a particular bias towards extreme caution with that drug.  We are happy to help you if you are open to hearing what we have to say!

 

 

[Tuikea]

On 8/8/2024 at 8:36 AM, Michael444 said:

As a 65-year-old retiree who's been on ineffective antidepressants for decades, I decided to devote the first year or two of my retirement to getting off all Big Pharma drugs completely, especially the high dose of Effexor that I am taking daily.   I have my own plan, which to me makes perfect sense, psychologically speaking.  I was surprised to find, however, that everybody seems to think that doctors are the experts in deciding what would work best for me.  Sure, they should have some input, but surely I myself am the expert when it comes to what I think would work.

That's why I have a two-step process that I plan to follow:

 

1) Tapering Effexor by miniscule but identical amounts daily over the course of one year, until I have completely stopped the drug after 365 days.

2) Micro-dosing with psilocybin.  (This is a common sense step, because psilocybin boosts one's resolve to follow through: I have experienced this effect after using the substance at the psilocybin center in Oregon -- a very expensive psilocybin center in Oregon.)

 

This post is NOT about micro-dosing, however, but rather the problem that I'm having trouble finding a doctor who will authorize the compounding of Effexor in the way that I believe would work for me.  I just do not believe that doctors are the authorities in this area.  I know better than they do how I would feel about any given withdrawal process, and my feelings matter, because they could cause me to give up on the whole idea of withdrawing.  I can already tell them that if they reduce my dose immediately by 10 mg (or 37.5 mg as my doctor wants to do), I would immediately associate all negative feelings with that reduction, whether the reduction "really" caused them or not.  On the other hand, with my method, if I reduced every day's dose by just 1/365th of a milligram, I would never associate any specific reduction with negative feelings.

 

This is just psychological common sense. Yet I can't find any psychiatrist who thinks this way.  They think in terms of scientific findings, not their client's feelings about the world.  Besides, it's much easier for them to do things the way they always have -- and we know the terrible recidivism rate associated with the status quo: 95% after three years for long-term users, according to my previous psychiatrist (whom I believe was fired for being so frank with me on that topic).

 

My practical question is: where can I find a psychiatrist who will do what I want when it comes to compounding Effexor?  (Again, my own doctor says he's never heard of such a thing and would not even consider it.)

 

Thanks.

 

PS So far I've found only one possibility: a place called Free Range Psychiatry.  I paid $95 for a 15-minute session. They gave me the sense that they would compound the drug as I wished -- but I'd have to pay $800 for a one-hour session to find out -- and god knows how many other sessions they would require.  

I'm 69 yrs old, it won't work out you will end up in a world of pain and suffering please read all the files.
From what I am reading faster is not quicker in the long term all it does is cause more suffering. Is that how you want to start your retirement years.

I thought I haven't got time for years of tapering and I was doing what you are going to do from 37.5mg before that I tapered from 225mg to 37.5mg in 6 months.

It was working for me right up to 13mg then it started to hit and I have updosed to 20mg and holding.

The problem with your method is because your are reducing daily you won't know until it is too late you are in withdrawals just like what happened to me. You need to taper no more than 10% per month then hold and watch. That is what I am going to do from here after I stabilize.

It's no good coming on here thinking you know it all, when you have no idea what you are in for. People are on here for help and are getting help from people that have been through it. The people on here are being responsible and advising you of the danger of what you are about to do.

You haven't  said what dose you are on?

 

[holinurse]

Thank you all for writing on this topic! I am grateful because it touches some on my journey. 
 

I especially resonate with @Michael444's value of psilocybin in getting off and replacing his effexor. For the majority of the last 20 years I have been on one antidepressant or another trying to treat significant anxiety/panic symptoms and (less so) depression. The last two times that I discontinued psychotropics were with the specific intent to do work with psychedelics. One of the two was to microdose ayahuascha, which eventually led to microdosing psilocybin (the latter of the two did better for me), and the other was to do a therapeutic dose -a medicine session- of psilocybin (3 grams). The most noticeably enduring positive effects I experienced from psychedelics was the 3 gram medicine session as I had access to self in a way that lasted almost 8 months. I do wonder about your point, @Catwoman73, regarding using psychedelics while in a "destabilized" (is that the term you used?) state as my taper in both cases were over weeks but I have no doubt of the positive effects of the plant medicine. 

@Michael444, I would like to hear more about the work that you did with psilo while you have been on effexor. You mention "motivation"...is there anything else? 

 

Regarding combining psychotropics and psychedelics, I just listened to a podcast with Ben Malcom aka The Spirit Pharmacist and was surprised to hear that it is not as "black or white" as people make it. 

Regardless, I have been going through my own hell since the benefits of my '23 medicine work have dissipated. I can't say for sure that it's merely the absence of the plant medicine effects that are behind my current situation because it felt like the cumulative effects of chronic insomnia (something that initially came on -or at least was revealed when other things peeled away- in Spring of '22) were getting more and more disruptive to my awake states....