zanti: From paxhell to endless pits of desperation

[zanti]

Hello everyone!

 

I am a 31 yo male.My AD story spans a little more than a decade but i need to give you some context and info about me first.

 

In 2013 I was a highly ambitious, highly motivated, curious young man.Just finished HS, took a gap year and started studying for med school with the dream of one day becoming a good doctor, maybe a psychiatrist.

 

You see, growing up I was always an anxious kid.A little bit shy, a little bit weird, a little bit too curious for my age.And because of that I grew interested in how the mind works.Also because of that i was constantly, heavily bullied up until the age of 14.Also around this age I started experiencing what I could call "illness": tremors, intense fears, nightmares, social anxiety, generalized anxiety, sadness, hopelessness.My grades dropped, my mind, gone.All I could "think" about in social situations was my fear, and nothing else had room in my head.My voice, thrembling.My hands, useless.My legs, stuck.Started developing coping mechanisms, mostly bad ones.

 

Long story short, no one noticed me.There was no therapy offered, no help on the way: I had to deal with it on my own.

 

And I did.Things got progresively better year by year, little by little, up until when, in 2013, after being admitted to one of the best medical schools in my country on a scholarship, I took, in hindsight, the worst decision of my life: I went into a psychiatrists office asking for help.

 

I still remember my first appointment.I went in fully prepared, with a list of symptoms, with my life story, everything.And she really listened ( it was a dual psychiatrist-psychologist into one session ).After 1h, she gave me my first paroxetine for free ( what a nice lady ), told me how to take it, gave me some benzos for initial side effects that subside in the first weeks of treatment, and that was it.I was saved! ....except i wasn't.

 

I unknowingly walked into a trap.No one ever, EVER mentioned anything about a withdrawal.My 20 year old self was of the impression that you go to a doctor, take a treatment, treat a disease and then stop the treatment...Clearly, not the case.

 

 

Was put on Paroxetine 20mg which atm I really tought it helped with my social difficulties.I even have the symptoms list with grades from 0 to 10, and at the 1 month checkup, everything was improved by 2-3x!!! ( placebo? )

 

Then, after 2-3 months of "treatment", reality slowly hit: insomnia, aggitation, impulsivity, restlessness, mania-like behaviours.Suddently, I found myself attracted to ciggarettes ( I've always hated smoking, smoke, cigarettes etc ) and started smoking 2 packs a day.Looking for "a way down", picked up alcohol too ( never a fan of it in my life, but suddently, I needed it?? ).Everything, and I mean, everything that was happening with me was put on my illness.Not one of my many complaints was even tought of being related with the AD side effects.Can't sleep? Let's get you some Imovane.Can't focus? Try B12.Can't think? Maybe it's your depression coming back, let's up the dosage or add some Olanzapine.And this went on and on, month after month until I got fed up and asked her for a withdrawal plan because at that point I got informed and knew you can't stop it cold turkey.And she did gave me a withdrawal plan: take 15mg tomorrow, 10mg the day after and finally, yes, 5mg.Said and done! 3 days after, I was med free! yaaay! .......and then came the brain zaps? maybe? the thing where you can't move your eyes left to right without being struck by lightning one.zap zap zap.Constantly.And the dizziness, the brain fog, the apathy, tiredness.Food tasting like plain wood? It was like NOTHING i have ever experienced in my life.

 

Didn't know what was happening but it didn't take long for me to add 1+1 and figure out that it was because of stopping the damn thing.Few days pass, it's 3 AM and I feel like dying and I no longer have a prescription because why, the doctor says I'm cured, no? Cool! That didn't stop me tho.Found an open pharmacy and managed to ****** a few pills of that wonderful Paxil.Popped 20mg right on the spot, and in 2h MAX, i was golden.No dread, no panic, no nothing.I was back, like nothing happened.

 

I spent so much telling about my first experience with AD because it really traumatized me and changed the course of my life.

 

My life after that went into a downright spiral.I dug myself into a hole and after 11 years, I keep digging ( with some legal breaks ofc ).I quit med school after just 1 year with 2 things in mind: Stopping AD and figuring out what is really wrong with myself.The stopping AD part was essential as I no longer knew what is me, and what the AD did and does.11 years later, and I still don't know a lot more.Switched 4, maybe 5 psychiatrists.Heard it all: "why stop it if you feel ok on it?" "it's like insulin for a diabetic", "it's your illness progressing".Ok but what about me? How do I get myself back? How do I wake up from this nightmare? Cold turkey doesn't work.Tapering doesn't work.Switching to fluoxetine doesn't work.

 

And I'm all alone now.This is why I'm here.No doctor in my area would take on a serious withdrawal plan for me, and I understand why.It's dangerous business.Everyone just very much prefers keeping you on some kind of AD for the remaining days of your life.

 

After the first few years of paroxetine 20mg daily, having lost most of my mind from that CT withdrawal and several subsequent tapers ( all way too fast ), I was pretty much told I am bipolar, there is nothing else any AD can do for me and I should go on Valproic acid for the rest of my life.And I did that too.I took it about a year, time in which I had all the issues from paroxetine plus horrible depression from the "mood stabilizer".Stopped vaproic acid CT without any issues.

 

There are more stories in between my initial treatment and today and I'll happily expand further if needed, but let's get to present day issues.

 

After going through my last CT withdrawal, this time from clonazepam in jan.2023, I ended up for the first time in my life in the psych ward.I was having constant thoughts of ending it all...not just thoughts, but some amazingly strong desires to do it...so I found a psychiatrist that took me in ( i don't have medical insurance ), and he saved my life by keeping me 5 days in his hospital and changing my meds.

 

The cocktail I am on now is the same since that hospitalization in jan 2023: venlafaxine 150mg, seroquel 200mg, gabapentin 300mg and mirtazapine 30mg.

 

I'm a ghost of the person I was 11 years ago.I can't work.I have no dreams, no future, no tomorrow.Every day is the same.I sleep 10-14h a day.I go to sleep only after I get knocked out by Seroquel late in the night.I need 2-4h after waking up just to feel "normal".Most of the time, I feel "zombified", unmotivated, uninterested.Can't exercise much.Nothing feels right or with purpose.

 

I don't know if I could take another withdrawal attempt.If I did have the courage to do it, I guess the first one to go would be Venlafaxine, right?

 

I hope my post isn't excessively long and if it is, at least it didn't bore you!

 

Thank you, I am grateful for such an amazing community and for the privilege of me being part of it.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Emonda
Name to title

[Jane318]

Greetings @zanti and welcome to SA.  We are a community of volunteers providing peer support in the tapering of psychiatric medications and their associated withdrawal syndromes. 

 

Thank you for completing your signature.

 

I am sorry for all that you have suffered at the hands of doctors who are so quick to prescribe these powerful drugs without informing people about the side effects and difficulty of getting off of them.  You are in the right place to get support as you move forward to reclaim your life.  You are not alone. 

 

On 10/27/2024 at 1:12 PM, zanti said:

I don't know if I could take another withdrawal attempt.  If I did have the courage to do it, I guess the first one to go would be Venlafaxine, right?

 

Only you can decide whether to again move forward to get off these drugs.  If so, we can help you develop a plan that is geared towards minimizing withdrawal symptoms as much as possible.  It will be neither quick nor easy to do so, but many others have succeeded and so can you.  Our bodies and brains are designed to heal.  

 

Please read the following:  Important topics in the Tapering forum and FAQ.  This has a wealth of information that will help you decide which drug to taper first and how to taper (Why taper by 10% of my dosage?) 

 

It’s important to keep tabs on your symptoms and adjust your taper amount and schedule as needed.  You can use the following list of typical withdrawal symptoms as a template for a journal, if you wish: Daily Checklist of Antidepressant Withdrawal Symptoms (PDF). 

 

You may choose to also track your foods and activities to identify things that trigger symptoms as well.  We do encourage people who are tapering to avoid caffeine, alcohol, and recreational drugs.  Many prescription and OTC drugs can cause problems too and should be avoided as much as possible. 

 

We recommend only two supplements here at SA, magnesium and omega-3 fatty acids.  So if you decide to try a supplement, even those we recommend here, start with a very low dose.  If you tolerate it well, you can increase the dosage slowly over time.  

 

As you taper, and even in protracted withdrawal, it is very normal to have periods where you feel better, and periods where you feel terrible.  This is what we call the windows and waves pattern of stabilization.  This is actually a good sign of healing!  Read more about windows and waves here:  Windows and waves pattern of stabilization

 

We have many threads on how to cope with symptoms – I encourage you to check out the various forums / links on the SA.org home page.

 

This is your introduction topic.  Each member gets one intro topic- please post updates and questions here, in this thread.

 

Do explore the rest of the forum – there is a lot of great information here.  Be sure to read “About SurvivingAntidepressants.org,” which has good information about how to use / search the site: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forums/topic/54-about-survivingantidepressantsorg   

 

Also, feel free to read and comment on the intro threads of other members.  This is how you build a community of people who understand what you are dealing with.   It is so helpful to connect with others who are experiencing the same things.

Yes, most health care professionals believe that it is easy and quick to get off these drugs.  It is not, as you and thousands here and elsewhere know.  However, it is possible and our brains will heal, and many here will attest!

 

Again - please do post future questions and updates here so we can support you.  Please also keep your signature updated.

 

We look forward to following your journey, and helping out in any way we can.

 

Best wishes.

[zanti]

Thank you @Jane318! I appreciate your fast and comprehensive reply and the work you do here!

 

I have read in the last few days dozens of introductory posts by members here.I've read the tapering guides, supplement advice and more.Besides, I've been reading about SSRI withdrawal symptoms and cases for the last 10 years.I watched hundreds of hours of interviews of leading figures researching AD withdrawals, benzo withdrawal like Thomas Szasz, David Healy, Peter Breggin, Joanna Moncrieff etc.That being said, even if I had the world's knowledge in my hand, it wouldn't help a bit when going mad from improper withdrawal ( it's less about thinking and more about feeling ).

 

I agree completely with you that the decision to withdraw such an impactful medicine should be taken by each one of us after carefully considering all aspects of what that implies, especially if, like me, we found a "stable" place after many many years of chaos ( CT, brutal withdrawals, side effects etc ).It would be nice if just the process of properly withdrawing an SSRI, benzo or antipsychotic would fix all our problems, but from my experience this is hardly the case.The exception would be cases in which the SSRI/benzo/random psychotropic causes extreme, unbeareable side effects.

 

I think that the success of a proper drug withdrawal in cases like mine ( polypharmacy, 10+ years of treatment, no life-threatening side effects and currently stable ) is multi-faceted and right now I can think of the following aspects:

 

1) Starting place - Emotional Stability.This, I kind of have.

 

2) Peer support - Ways for us to express what we are going through ( ex this forum ).For a long time I did not have such thing.This is for the first time in years that I feel like I found a place where I can be understand and I can talk to other people that can understand withdrawal processes and feelings.I live with my parents that fully support me but besides that I have no social life.No friends, no accointances, no groups.

 

3) Financial stability.Withdrawals can make people do stupid things.Impulsive things, especially regarding their finances.As I mentioned in my original post, I do not have a job for the last 4 years.I used to have one and I know I am capable of providing for myself, but this aspect is difficult for me.I have emotional traumas and I fear rejection immensely.The simple action of sending a CV or applying for a job makes me go into an anxiety rush and gives me intense fears.The jobs I had and the work I did in my entire life was the type of work that comes to you, not necessarily the one you look for, if you know what I mean.Conjencture and opportunity dictactes my life and not my motivation or will.

Also on this point, there is the financial cost of a withdrawal.Currenty, my cocktail of meds costs up to 30 USD/month.If i would start a taper right now, maybe I would need some omega 3, magnesium.I would need to buy more things and pick up new activities to cope with the withdrawal with money I don't have.

 

4) History of illness.As I said previously, I have always struggled in life since at least 12-13 years of age.My life "before" psychiatry was not a happy life or a calm life.Yes, I was motivated, but that motivation was anxiety driven and anxiety inducing.Right now, my social and general anxiety is at an all time low ( along with my motivation ).

 

This is all I can think of right now, will add more later.

 

I hope I don't sound pretentious or disrespectful to the community by analyzing these reasons and things.I realize this is an AD withdrawal help group and I do, I really do dream of a day when I can say I am psych drug free and happy, but in order to see that day, I need to consider my standing and options very carefully, for the sake of my mind and those around me.

 

This thread can serve as a journal of my journey towards successful psych med withdrawal, freedom, independence and happiness.

 

I hope you will allow me to use it as such.

 

Thank you!

 

 

[Jane318]

@zanti, thank you for the warm words of appreciation and your thoughtful reply.

 

As you will discover, SA is a wonderful community of people helping each other through this nightmare of getting off these harmful drugs. For many of us, it is the only source of connection to other people dealing with all these horrible symptoms, and that is so important - we help each other cope with the symptoms and find better, healthier ways of addressing the emotional issues that got us onto these drugs in the first place.  Here are some threads you might want to read if you have not already:

 Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

"Change the channel" - dealing with cognitive symptoms

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

Symptoms and self-care

Getting Started With Mindfulness

 

I have been on ADs of one sort or another for about 35 years.  And it is not easy nor fast, but I am healing, and you can too!  It can seem daunting.  As in all things in life, it is just one step at a time.  You will find a way.

 

Do continue to explore the site and feel free to reach out to others whose stories and histories resonate with you.  And yes, of course, journal your journey here.

 

Best wishes.

[zanti]

 

Last night's sleep.This represent very good my pattern since jan.2023: Late night sleep, more than 10h with several nights per week aproaching 12h.I always have several alarm clocks at 8-9h.Most days I do not hear them and some days I "wake up" and i somehow manage to stop them and go back to sleep.

 

I was trying to figure out when this pattern started and why.I believe it started since my clonazepam CT withdrawal and the reason was that I did not want to wake up anymore and I started seeing sleep as a sureway of dodging life's responsibilities and my horrible WD feelings at the time.For few months after clonazepam CT withdrawal all I could think about was death and it took me 4-5 months to be able to NOT think all the time about it but my sleeping pattern persists even after almost 2 years.I still go to bed only after I no longer humanly possible stay awake after I take the knockout cocktail ( quetiapine, mirtazapine and gabapentin ).

 

Is it possible that I experience some sort of protracted withdrawal from that clonazepam CT?

 

Another topic: After reading a clinical study looking into people's reasons to withdraw SSRIs or not, I've come up with a similar pattern that uses facilitators/barries for withdrawal.Mine are:

 

Facilitators:

 

- I was always a highly independent person and I hate the fact that I am one missed dose away from insanity
- I'm tired of being at the mercy of prescribers in terms of switches, withdrawals, horrible CT tapers etc

 

Barriers:

 

- fear of "going back" to my old self: scared, lonely, angry kid
- fear that I may be seriously mentally ill and without psych drugs I will be disabled or pose a risk to others around me
- uncertainty of taper process, not knowing where the end is
- fear of protracted withdrawal: what happens when I'm done with a successful taper and I realize I cannot function without psych meds
- no support outside SA

 

 

Edited October 31, 2024 by zanti
added info about alarm clocks

[mstimc]

Hi Zanti

I was on Paxil for nine years and struggled to get off it as well. It really is hell.  I, too, had multiple symptoms and obsessive thoughts of hopelessness and apathy.  But like Jane318 said, we are designed and meant to heal.  After serious searching, I found a psychologist who understood the effects of withdrawal and helped me deal with its effects.  It took three years but I made it to the other side.  I found CBT/ERP and EMDR were very helpful in my journey. No matter how bad things seem right now, you can heal!

[zanti]

4 hours ago, mstimc said:

It took three years but I made it to the other side

Thank you so much! Hearing about success stories like yours really gives me confidence that I can reclaim my mind and body and become healthy again.I congratulate you and you are very strong!

 

I was for a long time, pretty much the entire time I was in and out of Paxil withdrawal, obsessed with coming off of it, but instead, I ended up here, on 4 different drugs, with increased dosages and almost disabled.The name of the drugs may change, but the game is still the same ( venlafaxine is same if not even harder to taper than paxil from what i read ).

 

I'm thinking of starting my taper with venlafaxine and with a 10% per month reduction from last dose, if everything goes well.

 

I'm open to advice and suggestions from anyone! 

 

EDIT:  I've downloaded the withdrawal symptoms checklist, should I use it daily or only when I decrease the dose?

[mstimc]

I'm not a tapering guru, but 10% seems like too much of a taper.  I'd try 5%, at least at first.

[zanti]

I'm starting a 5% taper of Venlafaxine XR, tomorrow.I take it first thing after I wake up, but never followed a fix schedule, it's really all over the place, depending on when i woke up.

 

I set an alarm so I will take it at the same time each day.

 

Starting dose, after the 5% reduction, is 142.5mg of venlafaxine.I plan to hold it for one month.Science says we need 3 weeks to adjust to something new so 4 weeks seems right, with 1 extra week for stabilization on the dose.

 

I have some Omega 3 low dosage for supplements and that's it.I've been taking it for several days and the good thing is, I do not notice anything, positive or negative.At least I do not have the "fish burps" that other supplements have cause me! I will consider new ones as time passes.

 

I have a habit of taking the Venlafaxine on an empty stomach and skipping "breakfast".I'm thinking of using a protein supplement after I wake up.That would provide some calories, because I do not have an appetite to eat solid foods for hours and hours after waking up.

 

Also, weight and ratio of fat/muscle was always a big concern for me.I've always had a stable weight around 60-65kg ( i'm 173cm ) until a few years old, but now I'm at 80-85kg while barely eating anything.I attribute this gain mainly to past use of Olanzapine.The weight is visible as fat, and I'm very fragil regarding muscle/strength.The only exercises I can really do right now are walking and light bike rides.I plan to increase these as much as possible.Anything more strenous makes my muscles to spasm painfully ( after muscle contraction ).

 

Open to advice and opinions from all of you! Thank you so much for being here and bless you!

[Catina7]

Hello @zanti and welcome!  I'm currently tapering Venlafaxine as well.  I wish you success with your taper and hope things go smoothly.  When I began my own taper I started reducing by 10% per month, and it evidently was way too fast because I experienced a horrible crash a few years ago.  I think tapering by 5% is a good choice.  I make sure to never go over 5%, although I'm currently holding my dose for a while.  As we like to say around here:  "Slower is faster."  

 

I hope we can be of assistance to you here!  ☺️

 

[Jane318]

@zanti - your plan is sound!   If you find that you tolerate 5% with few if any noticeable symptoms, you can always try to up the percentage next time around.  That is what I plan to do when I resume tapering after my current hold period.  

 

I too set my alarm to help me with being consistent with when I take my morning dose.  

 

The drugs have affected my weight too (gain), along with thyroid issues (weight gain), and withdrawal (losing due to stomach issues / loss of appetite).  I try to just focus on eating healthy foods - try not to stress the weight right now.   Wise to stick with gentle exercise, as you can tolerate it. This is the time to let go of some things.

 

I too wish you the best as you begin tapering - please keep us updated on how you are doing - we are here for you!  

[zanti]

small update, 4th day of 5% venlafaxine taper

 

I've hit the most common and the usual withdrawal symptom: headaches

 

It slowly built up 2-3 days into the taper and now it stabilized as a persistent left-side headache.The focal point is on my left temple, but pretty much the whole left side is touch sensitive and painful to touch.

 

This development was expected and does not bother me very much.

 

I've made some mistakes in these first days, mainly I drank some alcohol ( wine and a beer ) and I neglected my sleep ( very late, 3-5 AM falling asleep ).

 

I'm feeling good all in all, and I'm positive the headache will resolve in a few days.

 

EDIT: Yesterday, I took a Paracetamol+Phenylephrine combo for the headache.Lowered my headache intesitiy but gave me intense anxiety and a general sick feeling.Won't take that again.Learned that phenylephrine actually can cause anxiety after doing a forum search and a wiki search.Crazy! I now understand why you do not recommend anything for the withdrawal process.Listen to people here and don't make my mistake.

[Jane318]

On 11/7/2024 at 5:06 AM, zanti said:

small update, 4th day of 5% venlafaxine taper

I've hit the most common and the usual withdrawal symptom: headaches

It slowly built up 2-3 days into the taper and now it stabilized as a persistent left-side headache.The focal point is on my left temple, but pretty much the whole left side is touch sensitive and painful to touch.

This development was expected and does not bother me very much.

@zanti Thank you for the update - That you are doing so well 4 days out is a very good sign!  I am glad you decided to start with 5% instead of a higher taper.

 

On 11/7/2024 at 5:06 AM, zanti said:

I've made some mistakes in these first days, mainly I drank some alcohol ( wine and a beer ) and I neglected my sleep ( very late, 3-5 AM falling asleep ).

I'm feeling good all in all, and I'm positive the headache will resolve in a few days.

EDIT: Yesterday, I took a Paracetamol+Phenylephrine combo for the headache. Lowered my headache intesitiy but gave me intense anxiety and a general sick feeling. Won't take that again. Learned that phenylephrine actually can cause anxiety after doing a forum search and a wiki search.Crazy! I now understand why you do not recommend anything for the withdrawal process.Listen to people here and don't make my mistake

We've all made mistakes along the way - the thing is to learn from them, which sounds like you have.  SA has decades and hundreds of case studies behind our recommendations to avoid alcohol and other drugs during withdrawal.  Our bodies / CNS's are very sensitized; substances / activities that wouldn't normally affect us much can really worsen symptoms during withdrawal.  And proper sleep is so important.  The brain is the most energy-intensive organ we have, plus healing requires extra energy.  

 

Please continue to keep us updated - this helps the moderators and the many other people who use the site to get good information and learn from others' experiences.  Standing by for any other questions you might have.  Best wishes.

[zanti]

9th day of my 5% per month taper of Venlafaxine, now at 142.5mg

 

I'm feeling great.

 

I'm thinking about the possibility of smaller reductions, more frequently ex: 1% per week.

 

Reasons for this: From my experience, that has been confirmed my these 9 days of tapering, acute withdrawal symptoms emerge in the first few days of a taper, then stabilize.For example, my headache that started 2 days into my reduction, has now stabilized and decreased in intensity almost to the point of being a non issue, 9 days into the reduction.Second, a more "micro" taper would impact my CNS less, maybe allowing for even fewer withdrawal symptoms or none.From my experience and from all that I have read, the bigger the reduction, the more withdrawal symptoms.A "micro" management with more frequent drops but SMALLER, would make a lot of sense.

 

I don't really see a downside to this approach.It reduces acute withdrawal and one week is generally enough time for any latent withdrawal symptoms to emerge.The only potential danger would be "compounding" withdrawal, but at the rate of 1% or even 2% per week, I really do not think that would be an issue.

 

Opinions?

[zanti]

12th day of my Venlafaxine taper, 142.5mg

 

The headache is still lingering and yesterday I took 2 tablets of NSAIDs, that helped.Today so far there is little pain.

 

Sadly, I woke up today suddently in the later part of my sleep, from a nightmare.In the dream I was somewhere high, like a skyscrapper, and I woke up "while jumping".It was vivid, intense, real.I woke up with a pouding heart and scared that I died.Took me some time to calm down and I fell asleep again.I am not 100% sure the "waking up" part was real and not also a dream.No matter, it FELT very real.

 

This is not something I never experienced.In fact, it is a common symptom for me while in withdrawal or in mental distress.That said, I would very much preffer to NOT feel this things again, dreaming or awake.

 

I'm considering an up-dose.

 

I would like your advice on how to proceed.

[Jane318]

@zanti -

 

I am sorry to hear about the nightmare.  Unfortunately, this is a withdrawal effect that many people experience.  You could certainly updose a bit, maybe to 145 mg, but I don't think we can guarantee you will not experience any more nightmares.  If I were you, I would hold where you are until you feel stable.  The BrassMonkey tapering method addresses the flexibility to incorporate the monthly reductions into weekly increments as you mentioned.  This might be the best approach for you.  Let us know if you have questions about it after you read about it here:

 

Please be aware that NSAIDS and other painkillers can be problematic in withdrawal.  Suggest reading:

Painkillers in withdrawal: aspirin, ibuprofen, paracetamol, acetaminophen, naproxen, codeine

Non-drug techniques to ease chronic pain

 

 

[alex01]

@zanti My story is very similar to yours. I used paroxetine 20 to 40 mg between 2012 and the end of 2019. I was never warned about the need to do a slow taper. And I was never warned about protracted withdrawal. All my side effects (and there were many, and strong ones) were attributed to me, not the drug.

I much prefer the problems I had before I started the drug than the state I was in after protracted withdrawal.

 

I did a fast taper in early 2020, and I had two horrible years. Now, after almost 5 years, I estimate that I have recovered 40-50%. But I am stagnant and it seems that I will not get any better than this. It seems to me that the drug has left permanent damage. I am going through a period of low hope and perspective on the future, but I keep going. I am able to work part-time. I exercise twice a week, lightly; more than that puts me in a crash.

 

You have a way to go to reduce your drugs. But please do it slowly (5% per month at most). And maybe it would be a good idea not to stop taking them completely. Sometimes I think that if I had kept a very low dose of paroxetine (something like 0.5 or 1 mg), much of my current suffering would have been avoided. Unfortunately, when I tried to reinstate, a lot of time had already passed, and it didn't work.

 

I wish you the best. I believe that you have the potential to improve your life. Hugs

[zanti]

10 hours ago, alex01 said:

permanent damage. I am going through a period of low hope and perspective on the future, but I keep going. I am able to work part-time. I exercise twice a week, lightly; more than that puts me in a crash.

@alex01Thank you so much for your message! I am so sorry for what you have been through, no human should go through this, no human should experience this.But we did, and we do, and thousands of people do suffer day by day from acute withdrawals and protracted withdrawals from SSRIs.What hurts the most from my experience is not the withdrawal per se but the level of betrayal from the people that we trusted the most.As someone that has grown up being bullyed daily, I feel like I got rid of the peer bullying just to end up being bullyed into increasingly more dangerous "treatment" by the very same individuals that were supposed to help with my traumas ( psychiatrists, doctors, psychologists ).

 

I am not discounting the possibility of permanent brain damage from these drugs BUT I have a different perspective on this: Even if there was some permanent brain damage or changes that we experience in protracted withdrawal, the fact that we believe or focus on that aspect, is never productive.The chances are, in most cases, there won't be any permanent damage and in the cases where there is, the best course of action is to stop focusing on that and work on what we CAN change.And we can change a lot.

 

11 hours ago, alex01 said:

But I am stagnant and it seems that I will not get any better than this

 

I believe you will.Time and good choices in life are key.I will follow your journey here and I will support you!

11 hours ago, alex01 said:

I wish you the best. I believe that you have the potential to improve your life. Hugs

Same to you, sending love! Paroxetine is truly a drug sent from hell, same as Venlafaxine, but we can do it!

 

@Jane318Thank you for your reply! I decided to hold at 142.5mg and it seems i made the right choice, as you'll see from my update below.I've also got some Aspirin which seems to work better than ibuprofen and paracetamol without impacting my psyche, but I won't use it daily, only when needed.

 

15th day of Venlafaxine taper, holding at 142.5mg

 

Feeling good.My sleep is back to "normal", no dreams again.Also, for the past few days, I've succesfully cut back on my sleep duration, to a more normal 7-8h.It's still a struggle and one day I needed to take a 1-2h nap during the day.My body still feels like it needs 9 to 11h...

 

My headache is at 10-30% intensity compared to when it began.I take an Aspirin if it gets too bad, else, I just forget about it.

 

I'm planning to hold this dose until my headache completely resolves, after that I will consider my next reduction.

 

This is all for now, thank you all and stay strong!

[mstimc]

@zanti and @alex01  I was a member of another recovery site from 2006 till it closed in 2012, and I've been on SA for four years.  I went through WD and all the hell it entails.  In all that time, I have never encountered an instance where there was permanent brain damage from AD's or any other anxiety or antidepressant med.  I know it may seem like its permanent but its not.  The feelings, thoughts, and sensations fade away very slowly and unevenly, and the anxious mind fits like hell to hang onto its power, but nothing is permanent. If you focus on recovery and the person you want to be, and how to get there, that will speed recovery.  But its not a race; it will come as its meant to.  Hang in there!

[alex01]

@mstimc I understand that the official opinion of the website is that there is no permanent damage to the nervous system. And I used to think so too. But after years of no improvement and having the same pattern of physical and emotional responses from my body, it is hard to believe that there was no permanent damage. For example, until 2019, I was almost an athlete, I exercised 6 times a week. As of 2020 (withdrawal), the most I can do is light physical activity 2 times a week. Even though I am well nourished and well rested, if I push myself beyond that, I crash. I lose strength for two weeks and can barely walk to the subway. This pattern has not changed for almost 5 years.

 

I have compiled almost all the success stories on the website regarding paroxetine. I have noticed that even the people who declared success did not recover 100%.  They continue to have residual symptoms even 10, 12 years after they have stopped using the drug. The evidence that there is some degree of permanent damage is strong.

 

But of course @zanti, we must not focus on that. We must do the best with what we have, that is the challenge!

[Yichin]

Don’t despair. It took Altostrata 11 years. You will still continue to improve. 

[Jane318]

On 11/18/2024 at 3:22 AM, zanti said:

I decided to hold at 142.5mg and it seems i made the right choice, as you'll see from my update below.I've also got some Aspirin which seems to work better than ibuprofen and paracetamol without impacting my psyche, but I won't use it daily, only when needed.

@zanti - Thank you for the update and good news that your headaches have gotten so much better!  Wise to hold for now.  Please keep us updated.

[zanti]

@Jane318Sadly, my journey took a wrong turn.Few days after my last update on 18 Nov, I started feeling very run down, whole body aches, joints, muscles.A general feeling of malaise.I started to look for reasons to this and I realised I'm pretty stupid.The scale I use to taper the Venlafaxine goes only to tens of mg and I taper by total weight in the capsule so 142.5mg of venlafaxine is equal to 0.43g total capsule weight.Empty capsule is on average 0.1g so 0.33g of beads equates to 142.5mg of active venlafaxine.That's nice and dandy except, considering my scale can't "see" individual mg, I have been taking for the past more than 3 weeks, on some days, 142.5mg and on the others, maybe even 145mg or somewhere in between, and that's because i could have had capsules of 0.430g or 0.439g.This pretty much put me on a dose rolecoster and it defeats the whole taper process.I don't understand how I could miss this.

 

I'm at a loss.I've reinstated the whole 150mg today because I don't want to "mess" with random dosages day by day anymore.

 

EDIT: Also, my cheap scale ( it was aprox 20 USD ) does this thing when i weight the same capsule more than a few times: the weight increases by few tens of mg with each weighting, ex: first time, 0.43g, second 0.44g, third 0.46g and so on...

[Jane318]

@zanti -

On 11/28/2024 at 4:31 AM, zanti said:

@Jane318Sadly, my journey took a wrong turn.Few days after my last update on 18 Nov, I started feeling very run down, whole body aches, joints, muscles.A general feeling of malaise.I started to look for reasons to this and I realised I'm pretty stupid.The scale I use to taper the Venlafaxine goes only to tens of mg and I taper by total weight in the capsule so 142.5mg of venlafaxine is equal to 0.43g total capsule weight.Empty capsule is on average 0.1g so 0.33g of beads equates to 142.5mg of active venlafaxine.That's nice and dandy except, considering my scale can't "see" individual mg, I have been taking for the past more than 3 weeks, on some days, 142.5mg and on the others, maybe even 145mg or somewhere in between, and that's because i could have had capsules of 0.430g or 0.439g.This pretty much put me on a dose rolecoster and it defeats the whole taper process.I don't understand how I could miss this.

I'm at a loss.I've reinstated the whole 150mg today because I don't want to "mess" with random dosages day by day anymore.

EDIT: Also, my cheap scale ( it was aprox 20 USD ) does this thing when i weight the same capsule more than a few times: the weight increases by few tens of mg with each weighting, ex: first time, 0.43g, second 0.44g, third 0.46g and so on...

 

I am so sorry for this setback.  it is indeed possible that the day to day weight variations were causing the problems you experienced.  I encourage you to not beat yourself up over it - we all make mistakes!

 

Did you read through the information in Important topics in the Tapering forum and FAQ?  There is information on how to properly calculate / weigh doses.  Specifically, Using a scale to weigh and measure doses and post in this thread: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forums/topic/1596-using-a-scale-to-weigh-and-measure-doses/#findComment-13379 has information on the Gemini 20 scale that many of us use.  Also a link to Tips for tapering off Effexor and Effexor XR (venlafaxine)

 

Recommend you stay at current dose to stabilize again, which I suspect will not take as long - hopefully a few weeks or more.  You want to be stable before resuming your tapering.  Let me know if you have any other questions before you do. 

 

Again, I am sorry this happened, but it is a hurdle to overcome, not a roadblock!  Best wishes.

 

[Jane318]

How are you doing, @zanti?  Wishing you the best for the holidays.

[zanti]

I'm so sorry @Jane318for not replying to you sooner.I sometimes "zoom out" from life and everything, especially during holidays.Hope you had a good time and you are feeling well.I must check your intro topic more often!

 

Wish I had some good news to share but sadly i do not.I have managed to mess up my sleep schedule again.I kept going to bed later and later and last night while "trying" to sleep at the beautiful time of 4 AM i found myself contemplating my existence and starring into the abyss for something like 2 hours, after which I decided to give up and go back to my video game that I play so I can feel like I "do" something with my life.So I skipped sleep and will try to correct my sleep schedule by going to sleep at a normal hour tonight.

 

As far as meds, I'm still at full dose, waiting for a new scale so I can resume the taper.The tought that I wasted another month of my life tappering incorectly bogges me down, but I'll survive.Still, thinking I have ahead of me 3 to 10 years of tapering scares me, but I also realize it must be done if I want to live a life I want to live, not be this....something i no longer recognize as myself.

 

I also had some "successes" last month: I built a presentation website for a friend of a friend, and he appreciated my work and I also made some money and will continue to make because of the website maintenance fee ( pennies, aprox 100 USD per year, but it's a start! ).I even designed a logo for his business and he liked it.It's not my first time building such websites, but this one felt real, I feel like I could build something in this business.Sadly I am so afraid of myself and the reactions of others and that makes me very scared of marketing my business to people, it's really hard to describe but all I can say it's the worst form of fear I ever feel when I expose myself, my businesses or my activities to the public...idk

 

Thank you Jane again for your care and attention!

[Jane318]

No worries - never feel pressured to reply quickly.

 

I hope you were able to stay awake today and get a jump-start on getting back to a normal schedule.  I am working on that too - the holidays are a good time to take a break from some things, but then it is an uphill battle to get back to the routine, at least for me!

 

Try not to dwell on how long it may take to taper.  That time will go by anyway.  With a slow taper, you have the best chance of spending the time in a safe, healthier way.

 

Kudos on your accomplishments last month!  Being able to focus and achieve something so technical is huge!  I hope you are able to find other opportunities to use your skills.  These activities not only serve to distract us from dwelling on our symptoms, but promote physical healing in the brain!  I can identify with the fear you feel about putting yourself "out there."  You might explore cognitive brain therapy for strategies to deal with negative, and usually false, thoughts. 

You can just buy a book for CBT or get one online or at the library for free.  This is free

https://search.app?link=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.anxietycanada.com%2Fresources%2Fmindshift-cbt%2F&utm_campaign=aga&utm_source=agsadl2%2Csh%2Fx%2Fgs%2Fm2%2F4.

 

Our thread on CBT:  

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forums/topic/1101-cognitive-behavior-therapy-cbt-for-anxiety-depression-withdrawal-symptoms-insomnia/

 

As for me, after a 5-1/2 month hold, I started tapering again a couple weeks ago.  I can definitely tell, but doing okay.  I will slow down if I need to.

 

Happy New Year!

[alex01]

@zanti

When we learn a new skill, we go through a learning curve. We only get it right after we make mistakes.

We make mistakes, we feel bad for a while, then we get up and try again with more experience. 

 

Maintaining some professional activity is extremely important, congratulations!

I understand your fear of exposure. I also suffer from the same problem, self-criticism and perfectionism.