Dave1030: New here. Wanting to be drug free after 20yrs polydrugged

[dave1030]

Hello all. I am currently on Trazodone 150mg, Remeron 30mg and Inderal 20 and have been on these for the last year after a cold turkey detox off .5 clonazepam for twenty years. I have read on this site about the need to taper at 10% of your current dose and that sounds all well and good until I actually put it down on paper. If I tapered the Trazodone first it would take around 5years to get to a jump off point of say 1mg or less. At that point I will have been on Remeron for 5yrs and it would take me another 4-5 years to taper Remeron down to 1 or less. That's if everything went perfect. Am I missing something in my math or is this correct? My psychiatrist said we could taper each medicine at 10% and it would take a year to taper each one but when I actually did the math it came out to remaining on one of my meds, Trazodone or Remeron an extra 5yrs just to properly taper at 10% of current dose every month. Assuming my spreadsheet figures are correct on the duration of these tapers and they do last 5yrs a piece does this site actually promote taking that much time to come off just two medicines? 10yrs? Sorry, I have figured and refigured and that is all I can come up with. Thanks for any replies. I'm hoping I am making a mistake somewhere or misunderstanding something.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Dave,

 

Welcome to SA.  It sounds like you been doing a bit of reading around the site, which is a great start.

 

It will be helpful if you would put your drug history in your signature (drugs, dates, doses & how you stopped taking them).  This will help the mods be able to assist you better.  Instructions:  How to Put Wiithdrawal History in Signature or Complete your Signature from Phone or Tablet.  It will show up each time you post.

 

You can use this Topic to ask questions and as a journal of your progress.

 

A couple of things I found useful in helping me to understand why tapering is so important are:  Video: Healing from Antidepressants: Patterns of Recovery  & Brain Remodelling

 

I'm not able to help with any suggestions regarding your taper or what to taper first but I have put your drugs into the drug checker (as reference for the mods).

 

All the best.  You've joined a great site with lots of helpful information and supportive members.  Someone should be along soon who is able to offer suggestions.  CC

 

Interactions between your selected drugs

 

Major Applies to: trazodone, Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

Using traZODone together with mirtazapine can increase the risk of a rare but serious condition called the serotonin syndrome, which may include symptoms such as confusion, hallucination, seizure, extreme changes in blood pressure, increased heart rate, fever, excessive sweating, shivering or shaking, blurred vision, muscle spasm or stiffness, tremor, incoordination, stomach cramp, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Severe cases may result in coma and even death. You should seek immediate medical attention if you experience these symptoms while taking the medications. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. Your doctor may already be aware of the risks, but has determined that this is the best course of treatment for you and has taken appropriate precautions and is monitoring you closely for any potential complications. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Moderate Applies to: Inderal (propranolol), trazodone

 

Propranolol and traZODone may have additive effects in lowering your blood pressure. You may experience headache, dizziness, lightheadedness, fainting, and/or changes in pulse or heart rate. These side effects are most likely to be seen at the beginning of treatment, following a dose increase, or when treatment is restarted after an interruption. Let your doctor know if you develop these symptoms and they do not go away after a few days or they become troublesome. Avoid driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you, and use caution when getting up from a sitting or lying position. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Moderate Applies to: Inderal (propranolol), Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

Propranolol and mirtazapine may have additive effects in lowering your blood pressure. You may experience headache, dizziness, lightheadedness, fainting, and/or changes in pulse or heart rate. These side effects are most likely to be seen at the beginning of treatment, following a dose increase, or when treatment is restarted after an interruption. Let your doctor know if you develop these symptoms and they do not go away after a few days or they become troublesome. Avoid driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you, and use caution when getting up from a sitting or lying position. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

[dave1030]

Do you all greet everyone this way?

The meds you are currently taking are all harming you and are damaging your system. Welcome and enjoy the site.

That was all I heard. Lol.

[dave1030]

Sorry CCat. That just struck me funny. Thanks for the welcome

[nz11]

Welcome Dave

 

Thanks for adding your voice and great questions to this site.

 

My calc gives a taper timeframe for  Trazodone of 49 (48.6) months , Remeron 34 (33.3), inderal 30 (29.4)  months. (Where the assumption is one month is 4 weeks...we are dealing with a 48 week year if i am correct,); ie 113; 4-week- months .

( Total 9.4, 4-week -month-yrs to get off 3 medicines if done separately and all goes according to plan assuming drops are made every 4 weeks exactly).

 

I guess your pdoc may be doing taper calcs based on 10% of original dose per month (10 months for each drug ) or variations there on.

 

Sadly after 20 yrs of polydrugged exposure yes you may well be looking at a long taper timeframe to get out from under the weight of these drugs using a safe harm reduction approach a best chance approach.

 

I could comment about the pdoc but i'll leave that for others....i dont want to get a (another) warning point.

 

I am happy to discuss  calcs.

 

NZ11

[ChessieCat]

Maths wizz NZ to the rescue!!!

 

Hi again Dave.  Glad you could see the funny side of my post, but sorry if it did worry you a bit.  Having only recently found SA myself, and being "saved" by their advice, I like to help out where I can.  I don't have the knowledge that many of the longer-time members and mods do, but I try and do what I can and this is something that will save them a bit of time so they can by-pass the drug interaction part.

 

There are people coming to this site who are on an incredible multitude of drugs and I just wonder what on earth the doctors were thinking (I know what NZ's answer will be to that, and I am becoming cynical about drug companies too $$$$$$$).  However, the sad part is that it is us everyday people who have had the misfortunate to become snared in the trap of ADs.  Or as one member here calls it a medi-go-round.  And we end up suffering the consequences.

 

Anyway, you're on the right track now so you are more fortunate than many people who haven't yet realised the predicament they are in.

 

Whilst I'm here I'll post a few more links just in case you haven't seen them yet.  The first one has lots of links within the first post including tips for tapering different drugs and also one to What Drug to Taper First.

 

Important topics in the Tapering forum and FAQ

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

 

And something that we find out very early after joining this site with regards to tapering is THROW AWAY THE CALENDAR.  The idea of tapering is to keep the withdrawal symptoms to a minimum so we can still live our life and (eventually) get off the drugs, not to get off the drugs as fast as possible but as comfortably as possible.  You will also need patience.  Just remember whilst you are holding that your brain is repairing itself so it can work with less of the drug/s. 

 

CC

[KarenB]

Hello Dave and welcome to s/a,

 

I think you've just stepped into the place called 'Surely Not!' and you are now looking for the exit?  I remember that place, sometimes I accidentally fall back in there.  The adjoining rooms are called 'I'm so fricking angry' and 'Acceptance' and 'Ok, let's find the the best path for me.'  You get to choose, and you may like to go back and forwards between then for a while.   

 

The thing is, responses to these drugs vary widely.  The 10% per month method is designed to accommodate those who may have become sensitised to the drugs.  Once you have tapered for a few months and have come to know your tolerance levels then you may find you can taper faster (or slower, sorry - I had to say that part so you get the full picture).   

 

You've been on these 3 for a year.  Are you having any side effects or are things quite settled? 

 

Thanks to CC's research we can see that the worst interaction is between trazodone and remeron, so that narrows down where to start tapering.  It may be worth tapering Remeron first as you can finish that quicker, but have a careful read through these links first, as you know the details of your specific case.

Tips for Tapering Remeron

Tips for Tapering Trazodone

Which drug to taper first?

 

I wish I had more palatable options to offer you.  Our recommendations are as they are to help people avoid bad w/d and therefore possibly ending up reinstating their drug. 

 

Have a read, and feel free to come back here with lots of questions. 

 

Best wishes,

Karen

[dave1030]

Thank you very much Ccat and NZ. Thank you both for taking the time and effort to respond. Thank you for all of your calculations on the meds I'm taking and the links to various info and places.

Man, if I told you what I thought about pdocs and their never ending pill pushing ways I'd probably get more than a few meannie points. The whole field of psychiatry to me is...........something.

Thanks again

dave1030

[dave1030]

Thanks Karen. I'm still pretty bad off from a clonazepam CT. Working but feeling lousy everyday. Heart palps,fast heart beat, confusion, total anhedonia, lots of other fun stuff probably most of you are going through too. Been off a year with no change at all. No waves no windows just nothing. In the last year I have had to learn about tossing the calender when it comes to healing. I know they say we all heal but I'll just settle for most. After 20yrs on benzos, a CT, a year of no improvement and started on 3 more freaking psych meds, I'm not expecting much. Just trying to survive as best as I can to continue working. If the anhedonia would let up even a little bit it would help tremendously. Sorry for the rambling, that is all free.

[downtongirl]

Dave, I have been on trazadone and Klonopin before.  I have tapered off of trazadone twice, klonopin 4 times...it can be rough indeed.  Hang in there.

[KarenB]

It sounds to me like some of those symptoms are side-effects from your 3 new drugs interacting.  How long after your c/t did you start them?  You may find some relief after you start a gentle taper.  Let us know what you think once you've read those links.  

 

We'll get there... 

[Petunia]

Welcome from me too Dave, I don't really have anything to add to the great advice you've been given so far, but did want to repeat what Karen wrote about possibly being able to taper faster than 10% per month once you know how you respond to tapering.

 

I was wondering if you would clarify something in your signature. 

 

"Also told to take another pill with it because they work together. Turns out it was antidepressant"

 

Were you also on this other pill for 20 years, and do you remember the name of it? Were you also CT'd off this other pill at the same time as the Clonazepam?

[dave1030]

Yes I was always on an antidepressant also with the clonazepam. Effexor 4 or 5 yrs, Lexapro a year or two, 2 or 3 more over the years. I couldn't tell you the name of those. One would poop out and they would give me another. Every time the new one would help after two or three days so I never thought much about it. Doctor always assured me this was totally normal. He had many patients doing this. One of the best known doctors in the state. Had his own radio show. I have crossed paths with a couple of his old patients by sheer accident. They quit cold turkey also and are struggling also.

The last antidepressant I took before detox was Wellbutrin. I cold turkeyed it a month before entering detox with no problems until they cut me off clonazepam and then the floodgates opened.

[Songbird]

Hello all. I am currently on Trazodone 150mg, Remeron 30mg and Inderal 20 and have been on these for the last year after a cold turkey detox off .5 clonazepam for twenty years....

 

does this site actually promote taking that much time to come off just two medicines? 10yrs?

 

After twenty years on psych meds, your system has become so adapted to them that you will likely need to taper very slowly to avoid severe withdrawal problems.  Slow tapering is about having some quality of life while getting off the meds, instead of being thrown into hell.  It takes enormous patience, but is the only real option for many of us.  I was only on meds for a few years and it is going to take me about three times as long to get off them, but at some point I just had to accept that and try not to think too much about how long it was all taking.  The important thing is that my dose is going in the right direction (down) and I'm coping okay.  You've got to think like the tortoise and the hare story - the tortoise wins the race eventually.

[nz11]

After twenty years on psych meds, your system has become so adapted to them that you will likely need to taper very slowly to avoid severe withdrawal problems.  Slow tapering is about having some quality of life while getting off the meds, instead of being thrown into hell.  It takes enormous patience, but is the only real option for many of us.

 

This.

 

Dave it doesn't matter how slow you go to get off, the key thing is doing so in a manner that allows one to have a life. And doing so in a way that is successful. Giving the brain time to 'regrow' itself. Get off too fast and you will be hit with terrible symptoms and you will have to go back and start again.

By the way ...hey i thought a detox meant a process or period of time in which one rids the body of toxic or unhealthy substances; detoxification. How come they gave you '7' drugs to detox?

 

As SB says with 20 yrs polydrugging and obvious failed attempts to quit the reality is it is not going to be easy to do it.

 

Furthermore from my observations with this kind of history coming out of the gates is critical.

 

If you have a look at mapleleafgirl she in fact started at a 2.5 % taper and held for several months. ( At the end of the day she averaged 6% taper rate)

 

Look at the tapers of people who are 'doing it', Rhi, brassmonkey, aberdeen, are 3 names just off the top of my head ... Aberdeen from memory is coming in at a taper rate of around 6%, which uncannily was the rate of mapleleafs taper. 

 

  Brass is less than a 10% rate. (i believe brass is dropping every 6 weeks not four) i cant remember what Rhis is (i did crunch the numbers though at one time) it is very slow from memory. Just look at Songbirds taper, (currently travelling at an average taper rate of 2.2%).

 

The general rule is 10% taper.....

 

Another option is to come out of the gates slower, i would start slower.

[dave1030]

I only knew that at one point clonazepam was making me very very ill and I had to do something. A couple of doctors told me about a place I could go to that would safely take me off clonazepam, a medical detox center. Once admitted I was told to take these Medicines to help me while I was going to come off Clonazepam so I did what I was told. Needless to say these places have no clue about protracted withdrawal. When I told them about my face, mouth and hands being numb and tingly all of the time they would look at me like I was crazy. When I was asked what I felt like and I told them I felt like I was dying or it was like I was on edge 24/7 they really didn't know what to do except throw more meds at me and give me books to read on anxiety. I will say the dr's did help me when I had a seizure after day 2 or 3 off clonazepam. It was a total nightmare. I left there knowing that docs could not help me one bit but I needed them to get these stupid pills that they make you think you must have.

[nz11]

So sorry you are in this dreadful place.

 

Your story reminds me of Luke Montagues ...you may be interested in reading his story ..taking comfort in the fact you are not alone.....he was royality

His story is on cep and you might like to subscribe to this places news letters.

 

http://cepuk.org/2015/07/18/rapid-withdrawal-misprescribing-benzodiazepine-leads-1-35m-settlement-luke-montagu-cep-co-founder/

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/magazine/article4497489.ece

[dave1030]

It was a detox center. 3 day taper off 20yrs of .5 clonazepam. I've never felt near normal since. They tell you you need the meds to help you through it. Heck, I didn't know any better and I felt like death so I did what the doctor said. After getting out I just kept the three cause I knew the traz or Remeron helped me sleep and the Inderal helped me with panic during the middle of the day so here I am.

[AliG]

Dave.  At the " end of the day ", you only need them ( doctors)  to get more of the drugs that they " addicted " us to physiologically ( before you taper off. ) . They are no more than " drug pushers".

 

Quote: I left there knowing that docs could not help me one bit but I needed them to get these stupid pills that they make you think you must have.

 

Start using them, for your own purposes.  What is your tapering schedule , now ?

Ali

[nz11]

Boy you sure have given me an insight into a 'detox' centre thats for sure. Perhaps it should be more accurately called a 'toxic' centre.

 

Dave would you like to answer Petu's question....what was that 'other pills' name....paxil ?  effexor?  ??

[dave1030]

My taper schedule now is I will have tapered my Inderal down to 10mg from 20mg in the last couple of months. There have been no problems at all. Planning on tapering it to zero and then starting on the Trazodone at 10% a month or both Trazodone and Remeron at the same time. I know that is usually frowned upon but so be it. In my mind I really don't see a problem with taking both medicines down slowly as opposed to one at a time. If I have problems I would just hold both meds. The main problem I could see later on is if one got off both and a few weeks or months down the road symptoms came back which med would you maybe start back on to slowly taper again possibly.

I know I took effexor,lexapro,zoloft, wellbutrin. As far as what I took and when, I don't remember. It's in the past and I'm not going to restart any of them.

[Songbird]

I've seen some people taper more than one med at a time, but extremely slowly.  That way you might have to hold at times, but you shouldn't have to reinstate or updose.

[nz11]

My taper schedule now is I will have tapered my Inderal down to 10mg from 20mg in the last couple of months. There have been no problems at all. Planning on tapering it to zero and then starting on the Trazodone at 10% a month or both Trazodone and Remeron at the same time. I know that is usually frowned upon but so be it. In my mind I really don't see a problem with taking both medicines down slowly as opposed to one at a time. If I have problems I would just hold both meds. The main problem I could see later on is if one got off both and a few weeks or months down the road symptoms came back which med would you maybe start back on to slowly taper again possibly.

I know I took effexor,lexapro,zoloft, wellbutrin. As far as what I took and when, I don't remember. It's in the past and I'm not going to restart any of them.

Well i am more than happy to be proved wrong.

 

If you are now on 10mg of inderal you might want to update your sig. Can i ask how you are tapering this? 5mg per month?

 

Rhi is tapering several at the same time you might want to have a look at her sig.

 

Heres the thing if you trigger wdl symptoms when tapering two drugs simultaneously how do you know from which drug it is originating ?

[nz11]

Hi Dave,

Are you able to give an update.

[dave1030]

Has anyone successfully tapered off Effexor?

 

Has anyone completed a taper on these meds and come out on the other side? I would love to hear your story. Thank you

Edited March 25, 2016 by Petunia
Topic moved from symptoms section, title added.

[marie123]

Hi Dave. I just completed my Trazadone taper over a month ago. I purposely made it a long taper, 11 months. It wasn't too bad because I went slow.  I am about to start my remeron taper soon. Any questions please feel free to ask.

 

marie

[dave1030]

Sure. There has been no change in my symptoms at one year off clonazepam. Depression, confusion, anxiety, agoraphobia, anhedonia, heart palps, tachycardia has improved, morning panic wake-up has improved. This is not fun anymore.

I have tapered Inderal down to 8mg from 20mg back in Nov '15 with no problems

[dave1030]

Sorry that last post was kind of confusing. Only tachycardia and morning panic has improved. The rest has stayed the same. I started tapering 20mg Inderal on Nov 2015 a d I'm down to 8mg

[nz11]

Thanks for taking the time to update.

 

So looks like you are tapering the inderal at about 3mg per month.

 

Well if the morning horror show has improved thats a major plus. Sorry to read the other symptoms are continuing.

 

Go well

nz11

[Hudgens]

1 mg reduction every 2 weeks is very fast-

 

for me it would've been the same thing as a cold turkey.

 

And anyway it's not a certain amount that you have to be dropping , but a %.

 

I did do more than the 10% reductions generally recommended here-sometimes up to 25% -but you can't

 

go by a set date for the drops-they have to be after waiting a good long while because

 

withdrawal symptoms can pop up a while after a drop-my average wait was 1 and a half months-but sometimes I had to wait for up to 4 months.

 

It helps to keep telling yourself that it's all going in the right direction, when it feels like it's taking forever.

 

You also have to slow it down even further at the end-rushing doesn't work because it's harder to drop at the lower doses-seemingly contrary to common sense.

[Blackstar]

I've been on both Effexor and Cymbalta.  They're both a b**** to get off.  Effexor I was on for 1-2 years, and Cymbalta for almost a year.  I went cold turkey both times, as I always do with antidepressants. Effexor withdrawals lasted about 3-4 weeks (brain shocks) and then I was back to normal.  Mind you, I was about 20 then.  I'm 34 now.  The Cymbalta stint was a couple of years ago, and that in my purely subjective opinion was a tougher drug to recover from than Effexor.  Similar feeling with both, but the Cymbalta did highten my sensitivity to pain once i got off it.  My heels would hurt when standing as would my hips while sleeping.  Kinda nasty. Although the brain shocks did subside, I would get the odd one even months later.  

 

Getting off SNRI's is very doable.  They're pretty strong drugs, but with determination it can be done.  Good luck.

 

Blackstar

[Fresh]

Dave , you might look in the Success Stories section for people who have come off these drugs permanently.

 

Blackstar , I would hardly call your cold turkey taper from effexor "successful" if you've needed to be on antidepressants and antipsychotics for 14 years since then.

We don't ever recommend stopping abruptly.

[Blackstar]

Fresh, you comment about me 'needing' to be on antidepressants and antipsychotics for the last 14 years, if taken literally, is actually quite the opposite from the truth.  So I don't really appreciate that comment.  And this thread isn't about me.  

 

Now that i read Dave's history, a couple things aren't clear. There may be a misuderstanding in how some of us are interpreting the phrase "successfully tapered off Effexor".  I took it to mean, to come off Effexor, not come off all antidepressants.  Even still, I HAVE come off Effexor (and its sister drug Cymbalta) without having to transition to another drug.  The reason for eventually going back on drugs is, again, irrelevant to this thread! But the reason was not withdrawal or transitioning.  

 

So Dave, I'm confused as to what drug(s) you are trying to taper off RIGHT NOW.  Because the way i understand it from reading your history, it says that you were on .5mg clonazepam along with an unnamed antidepressant for 20 years.  Then you decided to get off both of those drugs because they no longer worked.  So they got you off those two medications in detox and subsequently put you on 7 different ones in order to smooth out the detox (seeemz reasonable!).  Out of those 7, you are currently only on 3 of them which are Remeron, Trazodone, and Inderal.  

 

I'm confused as to where Effexor plays a part here.  If i assume it's the drug you were on along with clonazepam for 20 years, then you are already off it, and it's the 3 aforementioned ones you are attempting to quit, not Effexor.  Am I correct?

 

Blackstar

[Fresh]

I apologize Blackstar ... it's not easy to follow your journey without a signature , and I didn't realize you'd had a break

from medication for around 10 (?) years.  Please could you fill in your signature , instructions are here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/893-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

 

My definition of  "successfully tapering off"  1. involves tapering  and 2. requires one not to go back on meds.

 

Dave , please could you add some dates and more detail  to your signature , including the names of all the meds.

you were on and when you stopped them.   

[Fresh]

Hi Dave ,  how are things going for you?

 

I wondered if you'd seen the thread on Taking Multiple Psych Drugs: Which Drug to Taper First" here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2207-taking-multiple-psych-drugs-which-drug-to-taper-first/

 

It suggests that the more activating drug should be tapered first , in your case Trazodone.  

Now that you've tapered the Inderall down , you might consider holding there and working on the traz. for while.

If you tolerate the first 10% drop well after holding for a month , you could increase the cuts to every 3 weeks.  I believe that's 

a safer way of hurrying the process than tapering 2 drugs at once.  

 

best wishes ,  Fresh

[nz11]

Hi Dave hows the inderal taper going.