karenp: my story so far ... and thanks for reading

[Altostrata]

karen, you're up to 50mg Lamictal and you feel better? If so, I would stay at that level.

 

Too much Lamictal can give you problems, too. Plan to get off Lamictal last; it won't be for many months. And, yes, Lamictal has its own withdrawal challenges -- but it can be done.

 

Yes, you may have some residual benzo withdrawal, too, and that makes your nervous system more sensitive to jumping up and down in dosages of the other psych drugs.

 

If I were you, I'd keep everything level for a few weeks and then carefully taper off Prozac using Prozac liquid and truly minute decreases.

 

10mg is not a minute decrease or increase. These pills may be tiny but their effect is huge. Think in terms of 1mg or less.

[compsports]

Thanks CS. How much Remeron were you on when you started tapering? I'm on 30mg and 60 of Prozac.

 

Karen

 

Hi Karen,

 

22mg

 

CS

[karenp]

I'm really scared again today. Woke with dizziness and panic and it hasn't subsided. I felt a bit better the other day when I went up on the Lamictal so just a while ago I went back up another 25 mg. which makes 75 (I was originally taking 100). I don't know what to do, these feelings are truly unbearable. Go back up to 100 and just leave it be for a while? Please advise. I am afraid that things aren't going to change. Trying to keep it in the moment but the fear and panic in my body is so intense that it kicks off that trauma place in me and then the scary thoughts get going.

[Altostrata]

If the increased Lamictal helps, I guess that's the way to go.

 

Karen, could you summarize your medication and withdrawal history in your signature? Instructions here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/893-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/page__gopid__13606#entry13606

[karenp]

I'll do that. Thanks Alto. What if going up doesn't help? I'm afraid that I've entered some intractable state. I keep trying to remember what folks on here keep saying that healing will happen. It's so damn scary right now though.

[Altostrata]

You'll know in 48 hours if increasing the Lamictal helped.

 

Withdrawal is not an intractable state, but it may take a while to get out of it. We get into corners where we don't have any choices. These are new and scary situations. Stay calm, be systematic about your drug experiments, don't do anything dramatic.

[karenp]

Things have gotten so bad. I am back up to 100mg of Lamictal and I feel in a panic and suicidal. I don't know what to do. Ever since I began the taper of this drug I have been feeling worse and worse and didn't have the knowledge or support about how to taper until it was too late. Am afraid I have done permanent damage and why do I still feel so terrible? Don't want to take more drugs to get out of this but can't go on much more like this. Have asked for a rx of valium or clonopin to get me through although don't want to take it but feel against the wall. All my usual coping mechanisms aren't working--exercise, diet, acupuncture, herbs. I am in a terrible tailspin.

[Altostrata]

Hi Alto,

 

So the sequence of the last 4 years goes like this:

 

2007-Zoloft and Lorazepam

2009-Zoloft, Lorazepam, and Mirtazipine

June 2010-Effexor, Lorazepam and Mirtazipine

September 2010-Effexor, Lorazepam

February 2011-start tapering Effexor, continue with Lorazepam, add Lamictal and Mirtazipine

May or June 2011-finish tapering Effexor, start Prozac, begin taper of Lorazepam, Lamictal, Mirtazipine

July 2011-Prozac, switch to Clonopin and continue taper, Lamictal, Mirtazipine

September-finish Clonopin taper, start Lamictal taper, Prozac, Mirtazipine

 

Wow......depressing. I want off these meds!!

 

karen, I believe -- and you know I'm not a doctor -- that the taper of Effexor from February to June was too fast and that started withdrawal symptoms that were incompletely masked by the Prozac and exacerbated by too-fast Lamictal withdrawal.

 

So restoring the Lamictal may not resolve all the symptoms.

 

Have your symptoms gotten worse since you increased the Lamictal? Did they get worse when you made the jump from 50mg to 75mg?

[karenp]

The symptoms seemed to be getting better as I was going up but the improvements only lasted a day or so. I am now back to 100mg.

[Altostrata]

How long have you been at 100mg?

 

What are your symptoms now?

[karenp]

severe panic and suicidality

[karenp]

have been on 100 for maybe 5 days

[Altostrata]

And it got progressively worse?

 

This is sounding like benzo withdrawal, too. How much Klonopin were you taking, and how often?

 

Okay, stay calm. This will pass.

[karenp]

My system is in total freak out and no where to rest. Can't remember how much clonopin i was taking--at first maybe 1 to 1/2 mg. and then down by cutting into smaller and smaller amounts. Nothing is working

[Altostrata]

Right, that's the problem with withdrawal syndrome. A lot of times, whatever medications you take makes it worse.

 

Your system may be in freak out now but it will calm down. Hold on, it's hard, but you can do this. Stay calm. Do meditative breathing.

 

I'm trying to figure out if you overshot the Lamictal. Sometimes when you add something to a sensitized nervous system, you get a paradoxical result -- whatever was calming does the opposite.

 

Were you better at 50mg Lamictal than you are now or did the symptoms ramp up the same way?

[karenp]

I was a little better at 50 but within a few days i was spiraling again. but i'm really bad now-but things have been bad ever since i started the taper--with few windows of calm--but this is by far the worst yet.

[karenp]

My intuition tells me to go back down to 75 and take a small amt of clonopin and maybe a bit more of mirtazipine? I took an additional 7.5 mg of mirtazipine last night and feel like i had a tiny bit of relief.

[Altostrata]

I was going to ask you what you felt like doing!

 

Only make one change at a time. I would try reducing Lamictal, but only by a small amount. Do you have 25mg tablets? If you cut one in quarters (6.25mg), you can take 93.75mg.

 

I would hold steady on Remeron.

 

I have a suspicion the Prozac should go, very gradually, via the liquid solution, after you stabilize on the Lamictal. Prozac can be activating, meaning causing agitation or anxiety.

[Altostrata]

karen, I just want you to know I haven't forgotten you. I've spent the afternoon trying to find a doctor near you who might at least keep an eye on you through this.

 

Will get back to you later.

[karenp]

Thank you Alto. I took a bit of the clonopin and it took a bit of the edge off. Last thing I want to do is get hooked on that again though. Took 75 of the lamictal and had already taken 45 of the mirtazipine before reading your last post. maybe tomorrow i will go back to 30. I have a call into Joseph Glennmullen who wrote "the antidepressant solution." He is close to me but hasn't gotten back to me.

[Altostrata]

Is Dr. Glenmullen seeing patients? He would be ideal, if you could see him.

 

If he doesn't see patients, you might ask him for recommendations. We'd like to know, also!

 

E-mail: drglenmullen at prozacbacklash dot com

 

I have some leads, will post shortly.

[karenp]

I don't know yet if he's seeing patients. Left him 2 vms and an email. Had my therapist call him as well. All leads are welcome. Also do you know of any holistic detox programs in New England?

[cinephile]

Karen.

 

I KNOW what you are going through. We all do. I'm going to keep this short and I won't go into details about my situation since it's really all about you right now, as it should be. But believe me when I say everyone on this board GETS IT. We are here to help as much as possible and please just have faith that healing is possible. HEALING IS POSSIBLE. Just ask Alto. She knows a thing or two about healing.

 

Many, MANY people have been on worse med regimens than you are and have come out of the wormhole just fine. In fact, better than ever. But I know that the place where you are now may not allow you to see that hope. And that is the worst feeling in the world, I know.

 

I am in MA and I can give you the contact information for two psychiatrists that may very well be able to help you. One of them, Dr. Mark Green, I know personally. He approved my tapering schedule so I could get off Lexapro (still a work in progress) and was the ONLY psychiatrist I ever met who actually LISTENED to me. He is also very familiar with the EXTREME shortcomings of psychiatry and has read Robert Whitaker's ANATOMY OF AN EPIDEMIC. He is on our side for sure and he will listen to you.

 

His contact information is below. I don't know if he still practices in Medford; I saw him about a year ago when he was in Arlington.

 

If for some reason you can't get in contact with him, I'd recommend you get in touch with William Slaughter. He is a psychiatrist in Cambridge who has a very holistic approach to psychiatry, including talk therapy, meditation, cognitive behavioral therapy, meds, and even psychoanalysis using Carl Jung's concepts. I have spoken to him multiple times over the phone and he seems very open-minded. If he currently isn't seeing new patients, I'm sure he could recommend a psychiatrist in the area who could help you. Contact info is below too.

 

To reiterate: I know how horrifying this is. I liken it to almost being a kid all over again, except this time you don't have your parents' guidance to help you find your way. All of a sudden, you feel completely adrift, utterly alone and terrified. You feel completely lost and all the doctors are aloof and clueless assholes and on top of all of it you have to deal with hellspawn insurance companies. BELIEVE ME I've been there. But you WILL find your way and come up with a plan. BELIEVE ME.

 

Dr. Mark Green:

 

Mark D. Green, M.D.

c/o Westbridge Inc.

275 Mystic Ave, Suite C

Medford, MA 02155

 

Phone: 617-913-2971

Email: markdgreenmd at mac.com

 

Dr. William Slaughter:

 

Bill (Wm D) Slaughter MD, MA

49 Hancock Street, Cambridge, MA 02139

Phone: 617.233.8957

 

Website: http://www.wds-md.net/

Edited November 26, 2011 by Altostrata
protected e-mail addresses

[karenp]

Thank you so much cinephile. I really appreciate hearing from you and any thing that helps me to feel less alone in this. I will contact the drs. you mentioned. Thanks again.

 

In gratitude,

Karen

[Altostrata]

Thanks so much, cine.

 

karen, in the meantime, don't make any dramatic moves.

 

How are you feeling since adjusting your meds yesterday?

 

Also -- watch out for holistic centers. They usually don't know any more about tapering than the average doctor, and they may give you supplements that are too much for your nervous system.

 

What we need to help us in tapering and withdrawal are technicians -- people who understand the drugs, are attentive to withdrawal symptoms, and get it that very gradual changes are necessary.

[karenp]

Thanks Alto,

 

I am feeling a bit better today. Woke with that awful dread and panic, took .25 of the clonopin and my usual 60mg of Prozac, and felt a bit of relief. Last night I took 75 of the lamictal and 45 of the mirtazipine.

 

Should I abort the updosing on the mirtazipine and stay at 30?

[Altostrata]

Yes, I would go back and hold steady at 30mg mirtazapine.

 

Also, I know doctors think changes of 10mg or 15mg or 25mg are small, but for people who are sensitized, they can be big. Please don't make these big jumps.

 

Try to hold steady on all drugs until you see a doctor. If you want to make a change, make a small change in one at a time, or else you won't know which is causing effects, good or bad.

 

I don't believe the Prozac or mirtazapine are helping you, it's the benzo that's taking the edge off. When you increase the Lamictal, it helps for a bit, then your alerting system reacts against it (a paradoxical reaction).

 

I hope Dr. Green can see you, he sounds like he's at least willing to learn about safe tapering.

[Barbarannamated]

Hi Karen,

 

I've been reading your case and just wanted to say hi and let ou know I'm thinking about you. I'm not tapering right now, but know the dread and panic very well. I try to remind myself that it is unlike my original depression and a result of the messing with my head. It is so predictable (the ONLY thing that is) thru the day -intense in the morning and thru early afternoon, then lifts later in day even when I do nothing for it. The cortisol AM panic has gotten much better, but the dread is still there.

I would love to understand the neurobiology of the dread. A cortisol crash, perhaps?

I still have Klonopin and trazodone on board. I can't even think about that yet.

Hugs to you. I hope you connect with a great doc.

[Shanti]

Hi Karen. Alto is better at the technical stuff, but I just wanted to stop by and see how you're doing. Hang in there, it'll get better.

[karenp]

Hi Barb and Shanti,

 

Thank you for checking in. It's so helpful to know there are people out there who get it and have compassion for what I am going through. I do feel a bit better--probably b/c of the clonopin. It's so discouraging to me that my nervous system is on such a hair-trigger that one day I can be on the verge of ending things and the next feel markedly better. How will I ever get off these drugs and find some degree of stability again? Clearly it's the drugs and the sensitized nervous system caused by the drugs that is making me feel like slitting my throat!

 

Has anyone on here pursued a class action suit? I know they are out there but just curious if anyone has looked into it.

 

 

Thanks again,

Karen

[Shanti]

I have contacted a couple of lawyers but they haven't gotten back to me. I'm still trying others. The problem is they are more interested in the birth defects lawsuits. If I find one that takes my case then I'll post the information.

[Altostrata]

Abnormal cortisol causes the depression as well.

[Rhiannon]

Hi. An awful few days for me. Going back up to 25 mg. of lamictal from 12.5 didn't help my situation. I thought I could handle it but things got so bad yesterday I have never felt so suicidal. I made the decision to go up to 50 and by this afternoon I am feeling much better. I'm wondering a couple of things--did I not give my nv enough time to recover from the clonopin taper before starting the lamictal taper (only about 2 weeks) and also I must have gone down too much, too fast on the lamictal. I thought wrong that nothing could be as bad as the clonopin taper and so I cut 25% or more at a time (down from 100). Boy was I off!!!

 

Alto had suggested that I stay on the lamictal for now and then try to taper the prozac in a few weeks. I'm not sure what I should do now as I am really terrified of getting in that dark place that I was just in. Maybe stay at 50? Or maybe drop to 37.5 since one day at 50 seemed to make such a difference? I hate to be on more than I need but need to minimize chances of dipping so deep again.

 

I have 2 boys ages 7 and 10 and they were so sweet with me yesterday but I can't have them mothering me on a regular basis. This is so hard....

 

Hi Karen. I haven't read your entire thread yet but when I saw this I had to chime in because that was my first thought. It sounds to me like you haven't had anywhere near enough time to stabilize from the clonazepam withdrawal.

 

Something to keep in mind is that changing from one med to another--even in the same "family--and going up and down on doses, appears to be just about as destabilizing as a cold turkey. Which makes sense when you think about what's happening on the cellular/physiological level.

 

Alto asked me to take a look at your situation and my very first impression was "too much at once!"

 

I think it's too soon to be trying to taper another drug. Your clonazepam taper was fast enough that even people who aren't trying to get off any other drugs would still be struggling at this point.

 

The really good news is, yes, you can absolutely get off all psychiatric drugs, if you go very slowly and carefully. The bad news is there are only a handful of doctors who understand the kind of changes these drugs induce, and the kind of chaos that ensues when we change or quit them as a result.

 

See if you can find any of my posts about growing a new brain and neurological remodeling...

 

Okay, going to read the rest of the thread and catch up to date.

 

Oh, and also, PS, regarding some of the things your doctor has said, first, MANY people have a hard time getting off Lamictal. Gianna Kali (of Beyond Meds) says that for years, right from the start, the single page of her blog that gets the most hits is the one titled Lamictal Withdrawal from Hell. People are being told Lamictal withdrawal should be no problem and are not finding that to be the case at all, and they're desperate for information and support. Alto can explain better than I can about the importance of glutamate and glutamate receptors, which is what Lamictal screws with, but suffice it to say it's the most numerous and important neurotransmitter system in our bodies, affecting every aspect of our body's functioning.

 

Also, about you being so rare and sensitive: not really. You're an example of the tip of the iceberg. It's very rare for someone who's been polydrugged for as long as you have (I was, too) to be trying to get off all their drugs. Usually they get talked out of it or are so convinced they're mentally ill (because the drugs really do make you mentally ill) that they don't try. But pretty much universally, it's as challenging as it has been for you. I highly recommend the book Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker to help you understand the maelstrom in which you have been caught up.

 

--Rhi

[Rhiannon]

I'm confused about your benzo history. In your sig it says "Began taking Adivan as needed around 2005 after my dad died. Began taking it daily in 2007. Began tapering in June 2011 and finished taper in early September 2011."

 

That alone could cause the symptoms you are experiencing; after four years on a benzo, four months is too fast of a taper.

 

But you are talking now about having quit clonazepam. Did you make a switch from Ativan to Klonopin in there? When did you switch, what doses did you switch "from" and "to"? How long did you allow for crossing over from one to the other? How long did you take the clonazepam? How did you taper off of it?

 

I think you definitely, definitely need to stop making any changes to your meds. Find a level and stick with it. Sounds like 50 mg of Lamictal might be about right.

 

What you've done with the benzos alone is enough to cause nasty withdrawal like what you're describing. It's WAY too soon to consider tapering anything else yet.

 

Please clarify your recent benzo history for me. Reinstating benzos is a bit of a crapshoot, but it's worth a try. When it works it's a lifesaver. You do have to reinstate and hold for several months, and then do a slow and workable taper.

 

You can get off these drugs but it's going to take you a few more years than you want it to.

[Barbarannamated]

 

Hi. An awful few days for me. Going back up to 25 mg. of lamictal from 12.5 didn't help my situation. I thought I could handle it but things got so bad yesterday I have never felt so suicidal. I made the decision to go up to 50 and by this afternoon I am feeling much better. I'm wondering a couple of things--did I not give my nv enough time to recover from the clonopin taper before starting the lamictal taper (only about 2 weeks) and also I must have gone down too much, too fast on the lamictal. I thought wrong that nothing could be as bad as the clonopin taper and so I cut 25% or more at a time (down from 100). Boy was I off!!!

 

Alto had suggested that I stay on the lamictal for now and then try to taper the prozac in a few weeks. I'm not sure what I should do now as I am really terrified of getting in that dark place that I was just in. Maybe stay at 50? Or maybe drop to 37.5 since one day at 50 seemed to make such a difference? I hate to be on more than I need but need to minimize chances of dipping so deep again.

 

I have 2 boys ages 7 and 10 and they were so sweet with me yesterday but I can't have them mothering me on a regular basis. This is so hard....

 

Hi Karen. I haven't read your entire thread yet but when I saw this I had to chime in because that was my first thought. It sounds to me like you haven't had anywhere near enough time to stabilize from the clonazepam withdrawal.

 

Something to keep in mind is that changing from one med to another--even in the same "family--and going up and down on doses, appears to be just about as destabilizing as a cold turkey. Which makes sense when you think about what's happening on the cellular/physiological level.

 

Alto asked me to take a look at your situation and my very first impression was "too much at once!"

 

I think it's too soon to be trying to taper another drug. Your clonazepam taper was fast enough that even people who aren't trying to get off any other drugs would still be struggling at this point.

 

The really good news is, yes, you can absolutely get off all psychiatric drugs, if you go very slowly and carefully. The bad news is there are only a handful of doctors who understand the kind of changes these drugs induce, and the kind of chaos that ensues when we change or quit them as a result.

 

See if you can find any of my posts about growing a new brain and neurological remodeling...

 

Okay, going to read the rest of the thread and catch up to date.

 

Oh, and also, PS, regarding some of the things your doctor has said, first, MANY people have a hard time getting off Lamictal. Gianna Kali (of Beyond Meds) says that for years, right from the start, the single page of her blog that gets the most hits is the one titled Lamictal Withdrawal from Hell. People are being told Lamictal withdrawal should be no problem and are not finding that to be the case at all, and they're desperate for information and support. Alto can explain better than I can about the importance of glutamate and glutamate receptors, which is what Lamictal screws with, but suffice it to say it's the most numerous and important neurotransmitter system in our bodies, affecting every aspect of our body's functioning.

 

Also, about you being so rare and sensitive: not really. You're an example of the tip of the iceberg. It's very rare for someone who's been polydrugged for as long as you have (I was, too) to be trying to get off all their drugs. Usually they get talked out of it or are so convinced they're mentally ill (because the drugs really do make you mentally ill) that they don't try. But pretty much universally, it's as challenging as it has been for you. I highly recommend the book Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker to help you understand the maelstrom in which you have been caught up.

 

--Rhi

 

Great post, Rhi! You and Alto seriously Rock!

[Barbarannamated]

I've noticed HUGE differences between Klonopin brand and generics