Isabel

[AliG]

Isabel. You will be off these drugs soon enough . Don't go to a Dr unless you want some more drugs because that's all they will have to offer you.

 

Please stick with the plan for now. You are on a fairly low dose and will be off them in good time. Withdrawal and effect are two different things. I think Alto already explained that earlier. 

 

Dropping your dose at this time is not advised. Please keep notes  . Let's see what your symptoms are in the next few days and weeks.

 

Please keep detailed notes in the meantime.

 

Breathe and stay calm .    

[mammaP]

I am sorry if I confused you more Isabel, When I said you could cut back to 1mg I was just saying it was one of your options if you are determined to press ahead, We don't recommend it but these decisions are yours. You need stability now more than anything for your nervous system to adjust. Same dose, same time every day. It is only a few days at the new dose and because of the inaccurate dosing previously this will take some time. Watch and wait, see how your symptoms change. I can truly understamd why you hate to take that drug! I heted taking effexor but the withdrawal if I didn't take it was even worse than the reaction. 

Both withdrawal and adverse reactions upset the nervous system in similar ways, Symptoms that appear after taking a dose are reactions, 

 

We can't stress enough the importance of keeping notes on paper. I found that an appointments diary was invaluable. It has a page for each day and the pages have times on them, intended for therapists and professionals. You can write against the time when symptoms occur, when you take drugs, when and what you eat. You can then look back and see triggers, and when symptoms occur in relation to doses. 

 

Some people do have issues at 3 months out, some have issues at 12 months, others recover faster everyone is different and everyone heals at their own pace. There are a lot of variables, a stable environment, loving support with a positive attitude and taking care of oneself helps tremendously. 

There are lots of studies on how being positive helps healing in any situation. Alto used to go out for walks looking for dogs and cats to stroke because that made her feel better. Find something that you enjoy and it will distract you from the symptoms. You will get better, your brain is amazing!

[Isabel]

Things are going downhill fast! This is more than health anxiety. I'm at the point of giving in and going to ER. My head has so much pressure, and won't stop shaking inside. Internal restlessness. What do I tell them? Can this be Serstonin syndrome? 3 months of relentless symptoms has me at the breaking point.

[Isabel]

I've had bloody nose for awhile too.

[Isabel]

The onset of these symptoms tells me it's withdrawal. Its only been one week at 3.5 but would conditions justify updosing?

[Isabel]

I need advice please. Did I decrease too much too quickly, experiencing DR/DP and so scared. Do I hold or increase as obviously things are worse and if so what dose?

[Altostrata]

Isabel, we've asked you many times for your symptom pattern. We can't tell anything from these isolated posts.

 

What is your current symptom pattern, your drug schedule, and dosages?

 

What does "issues" on one side of your body mean? What issues? What side? When did they come on?

 

Are you susceptible to health anxiety, or exaggerating things to scare yourself?

 

To get anything out of peer support, you will need to take responsibility for tracking your symptoms, communicating them clearly and accurately, and not making yourself even worse through a habit of catastrophizing. Can you do that?

 

If you continue to do nothing but post panicky pleas, we're not going to be able to help, we're just a Web forum site.

[Isabel]

Thank you I do understand what you're saying however since I've bounced around in dose over the last few months and only recently settled at 3.5 mg I think all the different withdrawal and SE are hitting me. Its different everyday. I feel the worst in the mornings. I think right before I take my dose at night is the best time. But I have high anxiety about taking the pill. Recently have weird head feelings of shakiness inside. I've also gone thru one day of EHS at night, One DR/DP, today it's alerting. Do you think this is just the beginning of what to expect with symptoms?My mind is having s hard time processing as it seems there is a delay between what I'm thinking. Its more than not being able to focus its something lacking in the process. I don't understand why I have to subject my body to this poison trying to stabilize when all it wants is to reject it. I know this is web info but that's all I have. Its advised from here not to seek dr help only to be put on more drugs so that's why I ask for any advice you have with the knowledge you have on this siution for so many.

[Isabel]

Also in reference to your one question, I had a weird experience one night where I felt like my brain was being ripped in half. Since then I notice face flushing, numbness ear pain on the right side only and have the head shakiness. That's why I ask about stroke/seizure. To better understand what is going on which does go along with health anxiety to an extent.

[Isabel]

I don't want to seek unnecessary medical advice when most the time they'll say nothing is wrong and roll eyes and say it's withdrawal but at some point isn't it justified?

[mammaP]

I agree that this is very confusing. You had withdrawal from dropping and wonder if you should go back up but then want to stop it because your body is rejecting it.  You just can't win! I wish I could tell you to just get off it NOW, that is what I would want to do too but we have seen so many people do just that and suffer even more.  As you are aware there has been a lot of bouncing around with doses that have made the situation even worse than you could have thought possibe but things will start to settle down some with stability, as we keep saying, same dose, same time every day. You will not be completely stable, but will improve. If you feel like you need to see a doctor in case there is something seriously wrong then you must do that to rule things out.  Doctors do not understand the drugs they prescribe so will not understand that this is the effects of their bad prescribing. 

 

Once again THIS WILL GET BETTER but unfortunately takes time. 

[Isabel]

So I'm nearing the two weeks at 3.5 and would like help making a decision about dropping dose. All symptoms are tolerable except the constant brain tremble and then burning and cold sensations. its still hard for me to understand. Is it possible my brain is not making adaptations to the dose and still wants lower?

[Isabel]

Again, If I'm in withdrawal, why not get it over with by decreasing or stopping? If I spend months trying to stabilize couldnt that have been months in recovery from stopping.

[scallywag]

There's a risk that rapid dose decreases or stopping altogether will WORSEN your current symptoms and trigger new severe symptoms.

[Isabel]

I realize that is what this sight promotes. If it is the drug that is causing symptoms won't getting it out of system make it better. To me I feel like I have CTd

[Isabel]

Has anyone ever decreased and felt better?

[Isabel]

One more question, What about failed reinstatement? How do you know if that's the case?

[AliG]

Isabel. I CT'ed without knowing . Is that really what you want to do ?  I'm at 3 years off now and still experiencing WD symptoms.

 

All symptoms are tolerable except the constant brain tremble and then burning and cold sensations

 

This is mild and it could get so much worse.

[scallywag]

I realize that is what this sight promotes. If it is the drug that is causing symptoms won't getting it out of system make it better. To me I feel like I have CTd

 

"Side effects" will likely diminish after discontinuation. The risk is that you won't notice they're gone because withdrawal has created new symptoms that are absoluting SLAMMING you.

[Isabel]

I'm so confused. Pdoc can see I'm getting worse which I am. Lack of sleep makes anyone have all kinds of things. I know you would say no meds but what is the alternative. Waiting this out till I no longer cant. Not sure the dose I'm at is helping. Would an updose at this point be advised. What about a different med? I know that poses a huge risk. Is it bad that I may not be on the right medicine to stabilize. What about delusional thinking? Will tapering make that worse? Its hard because your wonderful for peer support but it isn't direct care.

[Isabel]

Can Alto please advise, how would I bring up with dr mood stabilizer without her labeling me as something. How do I know if this is the right route. I don't have mood swings but after being drowned with lexapro adversely, have no dopamine. Is that labeling myself?

[Altostrata]

Isabel, why do you think you have no dopamine? That makes no sense at all.

 

Don't worry about your neurotransmitter balance. Nobody knows a thing about it. It's a myth.

 

You may talk to your doctor about other drugs if you choose. We can't advise you on that.

 

What exactly are your symptoms now? Are you still having headaches? What is your daily symptom pattern?

[Isabel]

I'm sorry to ask alot but this is a nightmare that repeats 24/7. Because I reinstated and never tapered I don't have a withdrawal normal yet. I have been in wave with new symptoms all the time. I've shown my family all information but they won't help unless i take meds or they say it's not that bad.

 

From what I read others say about nausea, fatigue, dizziness I don't have that. When I reduced to 3.5 I felt better for 4 days and then downhill from there. My Dr who is actually a NP is clueless and I can't get in to s Dr for months. The NP did a saliva swab. Is this reinstatement a total fail if I'm not seeing any improvements? Is it too high, too low. I have lost 35lbs in 3 months, can't sleep. As far as patterns, Have head shaking, headache, right sided, Used to have hot and cold sensation now it's just hot. This is present all day. Severe lack of emotion all day, other things come up like nausea, pins needles. Had one night woke up with delusion or hallucination. Too scared to tell Dr. should I be telling them?

[Isabel]

Its two weeks at current dose and I don't know what to do?

[Isabel]

Lately severe restlessness too.

[Isabel]

Thought of a few more, sever lack of memory and focus as almost got into a few accidents and forgetting basic stuff.

[Isabel]

See what I mean I can't remeber all the stuff I want. Is headache of significance to something, the NP asked too. Feels like brain is always turned"on" can't get it to switch off.

[Isabel]

This has to be acute withdrawal. How can it be so bad when I started back on med. is it the med. won't it be better to stop? Ill have to go to hospital and they'll medicate me to non existence but what choice is there when it gets this low. I think maybe a med will help.

[Isabel]

Is the severe brain dead from withdrawal or drug too strong? Do I still try to stabilize on this dose? How do I explain to everyone family and dr that I am not losing touch with reality that its withdrawal?

[AliG]

Isabel. Please calm yourself. It is understandable that you are full of anxiety but it doesn't help you. If you can look through the ways of self-soothing and self- care it will in effect help you to eventually step off the drugs as you will have no further need for them. This is a time to educate yourself.

 

These links will help:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

[Kittygiggles]

Hi Isabel,

 

I am not a clinical psychologist or licensed CBT practitioner. However, I am a sufferer (albeit recovering) of health anxiety. I suspect you have health anxiety and tackling it will make everything easier to deal with. Earlier in your thread you said 

 

"I know I think about things obsessively." Health anxiety overlaps with OCD a great deal, it is a form of obsession. Understandably but in common with OCD, you are seeking reassurance that your health is okay. Seeking reassurance feels great when you receive it but it is addictive and actually makes health anxiety worse. It is okay to check important symptoms with a doctor but health anxiety makes it almost impossible to discern what is worth troubling yourself and a doctor with and what isn't. 

 

You need to recognize anxiety as something that leads to panic, and whilst both of them feel like they are continuous, they do actually end after a predictable period. When you are anxious or panic, it lasts up to roughly an hour, often 15 to 45 minutes. These numbers aren't that important and are probably not particularly accurate (but they are not wildly inaccurate either), what is important is that once you come down from a panic or anxiety episode, your faulty obsessive thinking kickstarts another episode straight after it. Being in this state repeatedly is exhausting, as I am sure anyone reading this will agree with. Being anxious or panicking is so tiring physiologically but also psychologically, which makes breaking free of it difficult.

 

If you break the cycle just once, you will feel better immediately! Learning to recognize when you are anxious and quelling it with breathing and calming exercises, as well as rational cognition, will fix health anxiety permanently. Each time you break the cycle, you get better at it until it becomes second nature. The goal of this is to feel serenity in the face of uncertainty about your frightening symptoms. 

 

You also said in your thread:

 

"This is more than health anxiety." Don't underestimate health anxiety! As you probably know by now that it can be terrifying, leading to panic and thoughts that you are about to go crazy, lose consciousness, or die. Usually, when you have severe health anxiety, the last thing on your mind is that you have it, you're normally preoccupied with one or more symptoms that are terrifying. 

 

You should see a doctor if you have symptoms that are inexplicable and could be serious. However, next time you go to the doctor with any symptom that worries you try to take notes (yes by writing them down) of how you felt before the appointment, during it, then afterwards. You should notice that your anxiety and/or panic levels fluctuate. This is your first clue that your problem could just be health anxiety and not a symptom that you need to worry about excessively.

 

The goal is not to stop you seeing a doctor, which you should whenever you think it is justified. The first step is to get you to make, wait for, and attend appointments calmly, having eliminated your anxiety: this will give you clarity during your appointments and in some cases, make you realize that an appointment may not be necessary. You can always cancel them if you find a symptom has diminished or isn't as serious as you thought. Eventually, you'll be like most people: making occasional appointments calmly, without anxiety driving any aspect of your decision. You will be able to manage your symptoms and avoid the horrors of a relentless panic spiral. 

 

Recovering from health anxiety takes time and work, but the CBT that treats it starts working immediately. I am not 100% yet (I'd say about 90%) but I am so much better. I have avoided so much worry and agony, as well as needless appointments with specialists and doctors, thanks to health anxiety-focused CBT. Without it, withdrawal would have been impossible to get through.

 

SA has a lot of resources to help you identify symptoms that may be caused by withdrawal. Your medication will also tell you of dozens of symptoms you may encounter as you continue taking it. These are commonplace and mostly do not need medical intervention. 

 

I think you are overwhelmed by health anxiety and panic, as I have been. I think you should see a licensed CBT practitioner as soon as possible. They will help you so much. You have enough to deal with Isabel, you don't need health anxiety making your life harder! I hope you feel better soon and I hope I made some sense

[Isabel]

What I believe is my main issue is cortisol. I'm getting it slammed to me by withdrawal and by lexapro. I notice cause it wakes me up after 1.5 hours going to bed and no sleep after that. I have to get sleep. Melatonin at less than.1 Made me hungover. This continuous flow of cortisol can turn bad. What to do decrease or hold?

[Isabel]

Isn't panic attack a sign to increase dose?

[scallywag]

A panic attack can be a side-effect of the medication or a withdrawal symptom or caused by something else entirely. It isn't necessarily an indication to adjust dosage. What non-drug techniques are you using to cope with your symptoms?

[Isabel]

I try to distract myself and I do breathing but even the best techniques sometimes don't help. Any advice on cortisol questions and insomnia since I can't tolerate melatonin or mag. How do I know my receptors are even downregulating?

[ChessieCat]

As others have already posted, it is very important that you learn non-drug coping techniques.  It is good to try a variety of things because if one doesn't work at a particular time something else might.  This is something that each of us has to learn and use in our own situation and nobody else can do it for you.

 

Continually worrying and giving in to panic is very stressful.  When you panic your body goes into fight/flight mode so the brain is busy dealing with a non-existent threat and it diverts from healing.  Claire Weekes was a doctor who suffered from anxiety and learnt and taught ways to cope.  She talks about a second fear.  From healingwell.com

 

"Dr Claire Hazel Weekes MBE (1903–1990) was an Australian general practitioner and health writer; she also had an early career as a research scientist working in the field of comparative reproduction. She continues to be noted for her books on dealing with anxiety problems along with nervous breakdown.

Weekes found that many of her patients suffered from anxiety disorders, such as agoraphobia, panic attacks, phobias, generalized anxiety disorder, and obsessive-compulsive disorder. She avoided the use of the term "Nervous Breakdown" as she felt it was unscientific and unnecessarily alarming, and the term "Anxiety State" as it was too medical. She replaced them with the term "Nervous Illness." She was concerned by the severe long-term effect these had on her patients' lives and by the failure of psychiatric treatments such as psychoanalysis, that many had tried. She developed a program of treatment based on ideas from cognitive and behavioral psychology. She noted, for example that patients did not suffer from these problems because they had flawed personalities or traumatic childhoods. Rather, the problems were caused by the patient having a habit of fear-avoidance, made worse, or caused, by a very responsive "sensitized" nervous system.

She described in her books the three main pitfalls that lead to Nervous Illness. They are sensitization, bewilderment and fear. She explained that so much nervous illness is no more than severe sensitization kept alive by bewilderment and fear. Dr. Weekes analyzed fear as two separate fears; the first fear and the second fear. She explained that first fear is the fear that comes reflexly, almost automatically. The patient usually immediately recoils from it, and as he/she does, he/she adds a second fear to the first. Second fear is the fear the patient adds to the first fear. Examples of second fear are "Oh, my goodness! Here it is again! I can't stand it!. It is the second fear that is keeping the first fear alive, keeping the sufferer sensitized, keeping them nervously ill.

Her program was first given to her own patients and then, as word spread of its success, to others in the form of records and cassette tapes. Eventually, she developed a self-help pack consisting of a book and cassette, with Claire Weekes guiding patients through a program. She has summarized this program as follows; facing the feared situation, accepting the feeling of panic, floating through it, and letting time pass.

 

.....

Claire Weekes described her own battle with nervous illness in her final book where she explained how she began suffering when she was 26 years old as she was misdiagnosed with TB for which she became introverted and worried. Her suffering lasted two years, and gave her valuable insight in to nervous illness. Dr. Robert L. Dupont describes in his book "The Anxiety Cure" that in 1983, he asked her if she'd ever had panic disorder. She replied "Yes, I have had what you call panic attacks. In fact, I still have them. Sometimes they wake me at night." Dr. Dupont responded by saying "He was sorry to hear that." He described Claire Weekes as looking at him in shock, for which she responded "Save your sympathy for someone else. I don't need it or want it. What you call a panic attack is merely a few normal chemicals that are temporarily out of place in my brain. It is of no significance whatsoever to me!"

.....

****PANIC ATTACK*****

Don’t Fight Panic

Resisting or fighting initial panic symptoms is likely to make them worse. It’s important to avoid tensing up in reaction to panic symptoms or trying to “make” them go away by suppressing them or gritting your teeth. Although it’s important to act rather than be passive, you still shouldn’t fight your panic.

Claire Weekes, in her books Hope and Help for Your Nerves and Peace from Nervous Suffering, describes a four-step approach for coping with panic.

Face the symptoms – don’t run from them. Attempting to suppress or run away from the early symptoms of panic is a way of telling yourself that you can’t handle a particular situation. In most cases, this will only create more panic. A more constructive attitude to cultivate is one that says, “OK, here it is again. I can
allow my body to go through its reactions and handle this. I’ve done it before.”

Accept what your body is doing – don’t fight against it. When you try to fight panic you simply tense up against it, which only makes you more anxious. Adopting just the opposite attitude, one of letting go and allowing your body to have its reactions (such as heart palpitations, chest constriction, sweaty palms, dizziness, and so on) will enable you to move through panic much more quickly and easily. The key is to be able to watch or observe your body’s state of physiological arousal – no matter how unusual or uncontrollable it feels – without reacting to it with further fear or anxiety.

Float with the “wave” of a panic attack rather than forcing your way through it
Claire Weekes makes a distinction between first fear and second fear. First fear consists of the physiological reactions underlying panic; second fear is making you afraid of these reactions by saying scary things to yourself like, “I can’t handle this!” “I’ve got to get out of here right now!” “What if others see this happening to me?!” While you can’t do much about the first fear, you can eliminate second fear by learning to “flow with” the rising and falling of your body’s state of arousal rather than fighting or reacting fearfully to it. Instead of scaring yourself about your body’s reactions, you can move with them and make reassuring statements to yourself like:

“This too shall pass,” “I’ll let my body do its thing and move through this,” “I’ve handled this before and I can handle it now.”

Allow time to pass. Panic is caused by a sudden surge of adrenalin. If you can allow, and float with, the bodily reactions caused by this surge, much of this adrenalin will metabolize and be reabsorbed in three to five minutes. As soon as this happens, you’ll start to feel better. Panic attacks are time limited. In most cases, panic will peak and begin to subside within only a few minutes. It is most likely to pass quickly if you don’t aggravate it by fighting against it or reacting to it with even more fear (causing “second fear”) by saying scary things to yourself.

****10 Rules for Coping with Panic****

1 Feelings of panic are just exaggerations of normal bodily stress reactions.

2 Sensations are not harmful or dangerous – just unpleasant.  Nothing worse will happen.

3 Stop adding to the panic with frightening thoughts of where panic will lead.

4 Stay in the present.  Be aware of what is happening to you rather than concern yourself with how much worse it might get.

5 Wait and give the fear time to pass.

6 Notice that when you stop adding to panic with frightening thoughts, the fear begins to fade.

7 Focus on coping with facing the fear rather than trying to avoid it or escape from it.

8 Look around you.  Plan what you will do next as the panic subsides.

9 Think about the progress made so far, despite all the difficulties.

10 When you are ready to go on, do so in an easy, relaxed manner.  There is no hurry.

 

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Yoga for calming (very simple poses can help greatly) - try the legs up the wall pose