Withdrawal syndrome vs adrenal fatigue

[JanCarol]

I've had this page open for a couple of days, wanting to post but not sure where to begin.  I recognize that "adrenal fatigue" is considered a pseudo-diagnosis to sell expensive supplements - but - I'll address that, too.  I was diagnosed with Stage iii Adrenal Fatigue by an orthomolecular MD.  Considering what I have been through with removal of thyroid and ovaries, "adrenal crisis" does fit what happened to me.  It is a long, slow, chronic struggle.  When asked by others I just say "Chronic Fatigue," because they understand it.  If I start saying "endocrine dysfunction" and "causes severe tendonitis and tendon vulnerability" I get blank looks.

 

I really do think that there is something about the drugs and withdrawal that really takes the endocrine system for a rollercoaster ride.

 

My own case is different, I had organs removed, throwing me into adrenal crisis.   While I was drugged, I consented to two operations (well, more operations, but only 2 that permanently removed organs):  hysterectomy and thyroidectomy.

My adrenal / thyroid crisis looks very much like fibromyalga, ME/Chronic Fatigue.  I can do things, I can go to City, or social events, or travel, but I pay a price like Chronic Fatigue (CFS), in that I crash, and cannot get up off the floor, sometimes for days.  I also have tendon, joint and muscle pain that seems to be related to how well my thyroid replacement (currently "natural dessicated thyroid) is working.  Things that can make me crash - too much exercise (especially cardio), stressful environments (like City), sometimes even a strong massage or physiotherapy session might shut me down for 3-5 days!  I had to quit physio because he didn't seem to understand that for me, inflammation is bad.  (he operates on the common principle that inflammation is healing - but this is not true in chronic inflammation conditions)

 

But I think that spikes - and valleys - in cortisol can be caused by the drugs and withdrawal.  

 

I have learned a lot about the adrenal glands since I started this journey, and I still don't understand it entirely.

 

I was told my my orthomolecular-doc not to take any hormones, that it would burn out my adrenals, but her way was nutritional (take the glandulars with the hormones removed, as recommended by the Expen$ive Doctor Wilson).  I was already supporting myself nutritionally with Vit C, magnesium, fish oil, and other minerals.

 

I got tired of paying $100 a bottle for "dehormonized bovine adrenal glandulars," and was stricken by the contrast between what my American Doctor recommended (DHEA) and my orthomolecular and Australian doctors opinions: DHEA is banned here as a "performance enhancing drug."  You can get it - by prescription, and doctors do not like prescribing it.  I started taking Pregnanolone, which is a precursor to several hormones, and can help my body to produce what I need to survive.

 

But I found that I can get natural glandulars from the USA.  I started with bovine adrenal (actually, I started with the Natural Dessicated Thyroid - NDT - from compounding chemist) which cost $10 a month instead of a hundred.  In it, is trace amounts of DHEA and other needed hormones.  This seemed to be a major turning point in my resiliance to stress.

 

Since then, I have added other glandulars:  liver, kidney, to support those organs as well.  When I talked to my doctor friend about glandulars, she said, "When I was fresh out of medical school, I thought that glandulars were totally worthless, of nominal value - but now I couldn't live without them!"  (she, too, suffers a chronic fatigue style condition - except that - she never took the drugs!)

Then there's the co-factors.  The B vitamins (B1, B2, B3, B6, B12, Inositol), C with bioflavinoids, magnesium, manganese, boron and kelp.  Ashwaganda, Bocopa, and sometimes (when I'm very tired) Rhodiola.  Aminos include NAC in the morning, Inositol and Taurine at night.

 

I've been reluctant to post this - because this adrenal regimen is not for people in withdrawal who are having symptoms.  Instead, it is for those who have been wiped and stuck on the floor for years with adrenal fatigue, exhaustion, or other adrenal dysregulation.

 

My protocol is more adrenal nourishing and mildly stimulating.  This protocol was developed by me, for me over time, with input from 2 doctors (my doctor-friend, and my orthomolecular MD), a naturopath, and a Western Herbalist.  

 

I started with one raw-food smoothie a week.  I am now up to two, as that is the easiest meal to make on an exercise night (yoga, karate), and replenishes my body faster than a sit-down meal would.  I take 2 magnesium baths a week.  (along with baking soda if my muscles are sore, or salt if my skin is irritated.  (my green smoothie includes "ancient grain" or pea protein, green and red nutrient powders, ginger, turmeric)

 

I have not eliminated caffeine and sugar, but have cut it way back.  Only one cup of coffee or tea per day, and if it is coffee, I "soften" the caffeine hit with coconut oil and grass-fed butter (bulletproof style, only I use less fat than they do).  Sugar is my big bug-bear, and maybe I would heal faster if I could just eliminate it entirely.  But I've easily cut it to 1/3 to 1/2 of what it was by watering my juices, and less sugar in my coffee.

 

Also important is my exercise program.  I started with just walking 10 minutes a day (in the sun, for mood - it was a conditional part of my psychiatrist's prescription - she would support my tapering, if I would make efforts to replace the drugs with other antidepressant activities).  Some days, I "crawled" that walk!  But I always felt better after doing it.   I walk up a hill every day.  I have walked up that hill nearly every day for 3 years now.  That hill was always hard to walk up.  After 3 years, it is slightly easier, but if I'm post-crash, or tired, it is still hard and slow to walk up. 

 

When I first started going to yoga, I could only do 1/3 of the class.  The up/down nature of the vinyasa sequences were extremely hard on my system, and my heart rate would get uncomfortable (even though it was only at 100-110 bpm, with average blood pressure), and I would breathe hard and have to wait to rejoin the group.  Now, 18 months later, I can go through the whole class, doing 90% of the poses.  I still have a lot of pain, and use a lot of props (and Australians don't understand how to use props), and they think I'm mad - but my yoga practice is good, and seems to be giving me regular communication with my body and what it needs.  And I do not crash from yoga anymore.

 

I did 6 months of tai chi and learned a "simple form" called "Tai Chi for Diabetes" by Paul Lam.  This is incredibly good for the endocrine & lymph system, and it was a social challenge, too, to go to a new place and meet new people.  I still do the form, along with the hip, balance, and shoulder chi gung, almost every day, to help control my pain.

 

I decided not to go back to that class because my tendonitis was well enough, and I found my old Sensei was holding karate training sessions - unadvertised - word of mouth only - at a nearby council building in a beautiful sacred park.  Surrounded by old trees and corroboree site, I practice my art - huffing and puffing and struggling with balance and control (lithium made my body "retarded.") - but practicing my art.  I can now survive the whole 1.5 hour class, and no crash at all!

 

I have challenged my limits nearly every step of this journey.  That doesn't mean I was working out daily, or doing heavy cardio.  I was only allowed to do what I could recover from in one day.  If the recovery took 3 days, that was too much, and I considered that a setback.

 

The latest things I am working on, is I started taking Glutathione / Vit C IV infusions.  I think the benefit is there enough to continue doing so around 2x a year. 

 

I am working on Christensen's "Adrenal Reset Diet" which is not a low carb diet (he claims that low carb can stress your cortisol, too, as you body thinks it is starving) - but instead it is timing when you eat your carbs.  Protein upon waking, carbs later in the day.    

 

It's wicked of me, but I like a carb "nightcap" as well to help me sleep.  Right now it is joint pain which awakens me, but I can usually get back to sleep.  I sleep in "sets" of 2-3 hours, sometimes 3 sets a night.

 

I have metabolic disorder (cholesterol, waistline, non-alcoholic fatty liver), and I see this as another effect of the endocrine dysfunction that I struggle with.  My endocrinologist seems to think I eat McDonalds every day or something.  He thinks that my 1 small serve of rice, 1 serve of bread, 1 serve of potato a week is "too much starch" (i.e., he wants me to go lower carb, but I think that is damaging and it certainly makes me angry to limit my diet that much!)

 

But in the last month - since starting the karate and 2 raw food smoothies, and coincidentally after my glutathione infusion (and recovering from a thyroid dosing accident), I'm starting to gain some ground.  It no longer feels like 3 steps forward, 2 steps back, and instead feels like tiny, baby steps forward with setbacks that I have some control over.  I have lost some weight, not significant yet, but it feels like a good trend.  I have also been working more towards the "Adrenal Reset Diet."  He calls it being a "carb mechanic" - there are always refinements to be made.

 

Additionally, I have a monthly spiritual practice which is keeping me on my toes, and constantly challenging my inner spiritual life, as well.  Amazingly, it seems to be becoming a community.

 

Two years ago I was convinced that, because of the drugs and the surgeries, combined with the decay of normal aging,  I was permanently damaged, and would only get more and more crippled and tired and bowed down.

 

Slowly, very slowly, I am starting to make progress, and wanted to report it here for others who may suffer from what I will call "adrenal struggles" in the long term.

[JanCarol]

Also, I was recently reading an article about the Adrenal / Cortex connection.

 

This article calls it an "orchestra," and talks about how core work can directly reduce stress by improving this adrenal cortex connection.  He went after "why does yoga work," and came away realising that the better our core strength, the more improved our stress response is:

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/08/cortical-adrenal-orchestra/496679/

[Christian]

No More ADs. I am surprised that someone who is in WD would post something negative about AF. Just because doctors don't recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Even the tests they use for cortisol in medicine do not show the accurate picture. My cortisol is extremely low in the AM and depressed the rest of the day and normal after 10 PM. A 24 urine test from my Dr showed I'm fine (which I'm not) but the saliva test I ordered online taken 4 times during the day show I'm in severe adrenal fatigue. You can be in WD and AF at the same time. AF is caused by stress. In WD we are stressed. With AF we need to heal our gut. In fatigued WD states we try she do the same. What we usually don't have is adrenal insuffiency as that is usually a thyroid issue. Yes, I agree that there are a lot of people cashing in on AF. But it's real. I haven't heard anyone outside of the medical profession say it isn't.

[Daisy1]

This is what I'm suffering from, the reason why my potassium levels are low in my kidneys and protein in my urine is because my adrenals are failing. I know my cortisol is low because I can barely feel my heart beat and I don't have panick attacks anymore. Hopefully the docs won't put me on hrt stuff

[SkyBlue]

No More ADs. I am surprised that someone who is in WD would post something negative about AF. Just because doctors don't recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Even the tests they use for cortisol in medicine do not show the accurate picture. My cortisol is extremely low in the AM and depressed the rest of the day and normal after 10 PM. A 24 urine test from my Dr showed I'm fine (which I'm not) but the saliva test I ordered online taken 4 times during the day show I'm in severe adrenal fatigue. You can be in WD and AF at the same time. AF is caused by stress. In WD we are stressed. With AF we need to heal our gut. In fatigued WD states we try she do the same. What we usually don't have is adrenal insuffiency as that is usually a thyroid issue. Yes, I agree that there are a lot of people cashing in on AF. But it's real. I haven't heard anyone outside of the medical profession say it isn't.

 

 

Well, there are people cashing in on every aspect of health and illness, mental and otherwise. That doesn't prove that something exists or doesn't.

Withdrawal would absolutely contribute to adrenal fatigue, due to the immense stress on the system, like you said. 

 

Doctors don't recognize withdrawal; they don't tell you about magnesium; they won't usually test you for adrenal fatigue.

 

I usually feel better after 8pm; I know there are many factors, but maybe my cortisol is more normal by that point? 

 

For a while I was on a chaotic regimen of supplements for calming the adrenals. I didn't notice a difference so I stopped them; I think in acute WD it is just too much on the system to take a bunch of supplements, anyway, which I have found many people saying here. 

[BobtheBoulder]

"Doctors don't recognise withdrawal"? - Yes, they do, they just don't call it that. They prefer discontinuation syndrome because AD aren't "addictive" as such. And "Just because doctors don't recognise it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist" - ah, actually it does. There's a whole slew of "conditions" that are diagnosed by "alternative practitioners" that aren't recognised by the medical profession - because there is no solid evidence to prove it. 

[SkyBlue]

You are fortunate--maybe it is different where you live. Doctors recognize a very time-limited version of "discontinuation," when people here on AD have WD for months and years.

You sound like you have your mind made up -- I'm not going to waste time arguing. I wish I was as trustful of the medical profession and their allies who have led most of us to the situation we now find ourselves in. 

[AliG]

In withdrawal , Cortisol is high therefore adrenal output is low ( as is thyroid function ) As we start to lower cortisol through stress relief - chemically, physically and environmentally the problem should start to correct itself naturally of it's own accord. It can take time but the body is always trying to heal itself and reach homeostasis. Given time and ideal conditions ( no toxicity or deficiency ) adrenal fatigue should start to improve .

 

Ideal conditions being  :   no toxic drugs / food/ chemicals or poisons. In a poisonous world -  that's probably not going to happen easily so it's a matter of "damage control ". Do what you can. Organic produce is ideal . Fruits and vegetables are nature's healers. It's about fixing the " whole ". We have been damaged and therefore need to bypass the " medical model " and heal ourselves naturally  through a whole food plant based diet, exercise, sunlight, prayer and meditation. IMHO.     

[grandmaD]

Thanks AliG for your encouraging post.  It is easy to get caught up in feeling so fatigued and get depressed and want to give up.  You have reminded me that it will improve with time, and to keep on going!  I just got my jig saw puzzle out and doing that and that keeps my mind occupied in the meantime!

[ccb73]

And since when is this site SO medically oriented?

 

Wasn't it "medical science" bs that concocted the chemical Imbalance?

 

Adrenal fatigue does exist. After hospitalization to try a drug washout that was done over just 2 weeks (stupid a holes...), my 4 times per day saliva cortisol showed > 100 all periods.

 

Aftee some good Seriphos, a PhosphatidylSerine, my cortisol went down and I then agreed to do withdrawal the normal way.

 

The cortisol test was a life savor and necessary.

 

I still have vad withdrawal snd finally at wits end, I'm going to take another salivary/dhea test.

 

Good luck guys

[CookiePretzel]

Resurrecting this old topic! @Altostrata you make so many good points in the differences between withdrawal and “adrenal fatigue”. I will admit that back in the spring when I was frequently experiencing crashes I also thought I had HPA axis dysfunction. As time goes on though I think I can see that’s they’re two separate medical issues. My question is, can SSRI withdrawal cause HPA axis dysfunction? I’m experiencing/have experienced hair loss, hypoglycemic episodes, shortened menstrual cycles, and no hunger or fullness cues. These are all endocrine system issues. Is it possible to have a hormonal imbalance and not have HPA axis dysfunction?

[Altostrata]

4 hours ago, CookiePretzel said:

My question is, can SSRI withdrawal cause HPA axis dysfunction?

 

I don't know. Maybe.

 

4 hours ago, CookiePretzel said:

Is it possible to have a hormonal imbalance and not have HPA axis dysfunction?

 

You'll have to ask an endocrinologist about this.

[WeLiveInHope]

When it comes to taking or withdrawing psychotropic drugs, I would not rule anything out. Hormone balances are overlooked and too often, women especially, are stuck on psychotropic drugs instead. Many people with endocrine issues were ignored for years and stuck on psychotropics before being formally diagnosed with an endocrine issues. 
 

I’d say to was possible. So is anything. 

[Jools2816]

I am investigated for dysautonomic dysfunction and have many symptoms that are consistent with this. Indeed as @WeLiveInHope mentioned the interaction between the endocrine system, autonomic nervous system, and AD altering of the central nervous system (therefore, as a consequence of all other systems overlooked by it) is very complex, and changes are inevitable. Once posed with such levels of multi-systemic adaptation, the organism is very likely to destabilise and constantly lack homeostasis. I am not a medical professional but it makes a lot of sense from what I have learned from my medical history and research. It is unfortunate that untangling everything at any given point becomes so incredibly hard and causation is impossible to achieve. This is why following the advice here and focusing on lifestyle changes is so important so the recovery is tackled holistically. I think this is an overlooked issue but I hope research will get there. Especially as ADs have been so generously prescribed for conditions related to dysautonomia. 

[WeLiveInHope]

5 hours ago, Jools2816 said:

I am investigated for dysautonomic dysfunction and have many symptoms that are consistent with this. Indeed as @WeLiveInHope mentioned the interaction between the endocrine system, autonomic nervous system, and AD altering of the central nervous system (therefore, as a consequence of all other systems overlooked by it) is very complex, and changes are inevitable. Once posed with such levels of multi-systemic adaptation, the organism is very likely to destabilise and constantly lack homeostasis. I am not a medical professional but it makes a lot of sense from what I have learned from my medical history and research. It is unfortunate that untangling everything at any given point becomes so incredibly hard and causation is impossible to achieve. This is why following the advice here and focusing on lifestyle changes is so important so the recovery is tackled holistically. I think this is an overlooked issue but I hope research will get there. Especially as ADs have been so generously prescribed for conditions related to dysautonomia. 

That’s the issue. It’s serves big pharma, and all the other organisations complicit to keep prescribing ADs for everything under the sun rather than face the possible consequences from taking any accountability over this global sh&& storm that they have created. 

[catmama]

Has anyone here with adrenal fatigue (confirmed by cortisol testing) had success with treating low cortisol while also actively tapering? 
 

I had cortisol testing done and it all came back low, so naturopathic doc recommended some supplements for me to try. But I’m scared to take them as my nervous system has been so sensitized by stress and withdrawal (despite tapering very slowly). However I’m desperate for some sort of relief from the exhaustion and inability to cope with daily stressors.