Iggy131313 validation is imminent

[Fenrir]

I think u were taking nothing, just go off in my opinion.

[mammaP]

I would call the pharmacy and ask them if the potency decreased over time. If it decreased in time then I would take that to mean that you have been 

tapering very gradually over the 100 weeks! 

[Petunia]

You might have been drug free without even realizing it

[Iggy131313]

Lex, thats pretty dangerous advice, I missed a dose of 0.72 a year ago and had the most severe reaction.......

 

mamaP..the pharmacy know nothing, they say ts all exactly the same...i dont know what to do

[Iggy131313]

the pharmacy is now saying it could be 90% less effective if past its shelf lfe

[Iggy131313]

so even though I now know for a fact it had lost potency, Im not sure what to do from here...

 

should I mix a drop from the old bottle with a drop from the new bottle n a double trtation fluid and take my doI really REALLY didnt want tose from there, which would be a step in the middle from the old to the new...maybe try a small reduction

 

it seems I have updosed significantly when i really REALLY didnt want to

[WinningThrough]

Good to see you back Iggy but I'm sorry you are suffering.

 

The fact that you got more functional and were improving means you can again.

 

I don't know what to advise. Someone who know more than me will be along to help. Looking at it from the outside, my feeling is that you could take a lower dose of the new stuff if it's too potent. But I don't know enough. It just seems like a possible option.

[Meimeiquest]

Yes, it' definitely would lose, not gain, potency. Maybe try 10% and repeat as needed till it felt better (in same day). I would definitely not mix the two. Just my two cents worth.

[Altostrata]

The potency decreased, Iggy. You have been tapering all along by using a drug that was extremely out of date.

 

Do not mix the drugs. I would take a fraction of your dose from the new batch.

[Iggy131313]

Im one way Im pleased that I have been tapering, but Im terrified of making a decrease, and Im not sure how to do it, perhaps  should try 10% go from 0.48 to 0.40...or maybe  should do only 5% and see if it has a bad effect on me?

 

I know no one can tell me what to do, I obviously have no idea what kind of dose I would have been on taking the amount I was of the out of date stuff.....if only I had loads left of the out of date stuff Id just go back on that, but thats not going to last..and Id only be delaying this agony

 

Many many thanks for all the replys, and a big thankyou to you Alto, I very much appriciate your advce on this matter

[Jemima]

Mathematically speaking, if you were taking .48 mg. of a drug that retained only 10% of its potency, that would mean you were actually taking .048 mg of the drug.  If it were me, I'd try something in the bottom half of the middle, between .048 mg. and .24 mg., and give it four days to give the change time to work. In case you're feeling too addled to do the math, 25% of what you thought you were taking would be .12 mg. (.48/4). You could try that, or a little more or a little less depending on how you feel, but take the same dose each day and give it those four full days to work. If it does, stay on that dose for at least a month before attempting a taper.  And please be advised this is strictly guesswork.  I'm just saying what I'd do in your position. There is no sure-fire way to calculate what would be best for you.

 

I want to add that I very strongly disagree with Meimei. You won't feel the full effects of a change in dose for up to four days, so adjusting the dose according to how you feel over the first 24 hours would be a mistake. You could end up increasing your dose unnecessarily that way and end up overstimulated.

[Iggy131313]

thankyou jemima, the problem is that I dont know if it will be 90% less potent, I mean, the pharmasst said so, but it seems so drastic...

 

and Im full of fear as the last time I tapered after 4 days I went into the worst time I have ever had, but things were different then, and I had tapered only a short time before then.....but no one can tell me it will be good or bad, I know that..im kinda on my own with desisions

 

but am grateful for the support

[Iggy131313]

im just reassurance seeking here for a second, as the thought of maing a drop has brought back the fears of what happened to me last may

 

my drops leading upto that time didnt seem to have a bad effect, I was suffering greatly the whole time, but I never had an intinctive feeling that the drops were effecting me, unlike when I knew for sure on the final drop, the one that has left me unable to make the slightest change for 16 months due to the level of suffering I endured for a month after updosing back....

 

here is what my taper looked like

 

end of feb dropped 1.04 - 0.88

 

27th march 0.72            (0.16 drop)

 

17th aprl 0.56           (0.16 drop) 3 weeks

 

8th may   0.48        (0.08 drop) 3 wees

 

2 weeks later drop 0.40   (0.04 drop)

 

4 days after dropping to 0.40 even though it was the smallest drop I had ever made, that was when hell got worse...all I could do was scream in the garden, that was all I could do, my son was removed from the house, there are no words for what I endured for the next 5 weeks, i was incontinent, I couldnt speak, couldnt move apart from the rock and scream, couldnt see, couldnt eat...just lay on my bed rockng, crying and begging to be killed, nothing else.

 

even after nearly a year and a half my memories of that are fresh in my mnd, dont get me wrong, every day is severe suffering, and I can be bedridden and in a similar sre for maybe 5 days out of every month...and the rest is spent grasping my way through the day....

 

but im so scared its going to happen again

 

Im trying to tell myself that taper was the straw that broke the camels back, it was an accumilation of the tapers that led to that severe state.....

[Iggy131313]

so in 14 weeks I went from 1.04 to 0.40

 

thats alot I guess for someone as over senstised as myself

[Iggy131313]

im so scared of dropping, do you think I would ajust if I left it at this dose? or would it continue to get worse? im getting worse by the day

[Meimeiquest]

Iggy, I wonder if you or the pharmacist could call the manufacturer. They won't be able to tell you anything for certain, but they might have some info.

 

At one time, I worked with a drug that was marked for expiration 18 months from manufacture. But the head of product materials kept a stash of it in the trunk of his car. After three years, it turned black, and only then did testing show it had deteriorated. Obviously liquids are much less stable, but if someone could get ahold of all that the company knows, it might give you some more data to work off of. There, if a doctor would have called with your story, the company would have divulged everything they knew, but obviously that could vary between companies and countries.

[Iggy131313]

the only thing I know for sure is that changing to this new bottle has sent me back to square one, extrelemy severe so there is 100% something different

[Meimeiquest]

So when you changed bottle, what dose old were you on and what new dose did you choose?

[Iggy131313]

i was on 0.48 of a mg and I took the same amount from the new bottle, I wish I had made a note of when I started the new bottle, I got it on the 19th but i know i didnt start t rght away, I sent a message to a frend sayng  was in a sever wave on the 26th so it was obviously somewhere in between those dates

 

i have continued to get worse and worse every day, the full moon effected me very badly, and yesterday I came on my perod and it was game over, i feel lke I did when I was having the intial adverse reaction over 2 years ago

 

this morning I made a 5% drop, or just under 5%

 

I dropped 0.02 so Im on 0.46...this wont anywhere near be where I was before ths new batch, but as no one knows f dropping will mae me worse, im stuck in a very difficult and frightnening position

 

last year when I dropped to 0.40 it was possibly the worst time out of this whole unreal experience

 

another friend I have in w/d who has been sick for 8 years, has been saying to me I must not drop agan for at least 2 months, and this advice scares me also

 

I wish I knew what to do

[Iggy131313]

I just spoke to the munufactueres, they have no idea of it would have lost potency over the 2 years, they said they had no data on it, what utter BS

 

they said it could have been for contamination reasons that they put a use by 16 weeks on t...but  know it must have lost potency...as this reaction im having is just like the adverse reaction I had over 2 years ago, and I cant quite belive this is happening to me agan

 

Alto, you said it would have decreased in potency, do you KNOW that? or is it a good guess? I would guess the same, but I wondered if you had any info or data on that kind of thing?

[NoMeaning25]

Glad to see you Iggy.

 

 

A question, is it the identical brand you used before? I mean identical?

 

That would make a huge difference all together

[NoMeaning25]

What symptoms have you experienced when you switched over?

 

And if i may ask, this friend who is 8 years off, who is he/she?

 

I hope you find the answers you are looking for soon Iggy

[Iggy131313]

sheila

 

and yes its indentical, brand name, not generic, identical

[Iggy131313]

and as for symptoms, ramping up of severe SEVERE akathisia, plus most of the symptoms I had on my initial adverse reaction 2 yeras ago, I am acute, bed riidden and tortured

[NoMeaning25]

I'm so sorry to hear this Do you have nothing left of the old liquid form anymore?

 

This is really unfair

[Iggy131313]

i do, but not enough to last more than  a few weeks at most, so theres no point in going bac to that

[WinningThrough]

Iggy, this is just a thought but I will toss it out there. If you went back to the original liquid and took it for a few weeks, the new one would be starting to lose its efficacy over that time and would be weakening. I can't remember how long you said the shelf life was..I think it was sixteen weeks or something. I realise it's difficult because you would be kind of dropping a dose doing that.

 

Alternatively, could you maybe add some water to your new solution to weaken it a bit?

 

Does anyone else have any ideas on either on these thoughts?

[Meimeiquest]

Is this liquid made by the manufacturer or compounded by the pharmacy?

[Skyler]

Caroline... I'm very sorry this has happened. A bummer for sure. I ran into a problem with my taper a ways back that is in some ways similar to your situation. I use water as a diluent, and Lyica suspension starts to deteriorate if kept more than 24 hours. I held for a solid year, not understanding why I was getting no better and finally came to understand the suspension cannot be kept 3 days or longer. The worst part was I did not reduce my dose for a year.. in this regard your situation is different. For all you know, you may be almost off...

 

So Please, take Alto and Jemima's advice and stop listening to your anxiety as if it was gospel.. You are soliciting one suggestion after another when you already have the best answer you can get. Alto's advice is the best (and Jemima is no slouch), and you know this.. you can't do better in that regard.

 

The fact this is all making you very anxious does not mean this is a disaster, or that you cannot get back on track... it only means you have a tendency to get anxious! STOP FEEDING YOUR ANXIETY!

 

Skyler

 

The potency decreased, Iggy. You have been tapering all along by using a drug that was extremely out of date.

 

Do not mix the drugs. I would take a fraction of your dose from the new batch.

 

 

Mathematically speaking, if you were taking .48 mg. of a drug that retained only 10% of its potency, that would mean you were actually taking .048 mg of the drug.  If it were me, I'd try something in the bottom half of the middle, between .048 mg. and .24 mg., and give it four days to give the change time to work. In case you're feeling too addled to do the math, 25% of what you thought you were taking would be .12 mg. (.48/4). You could try that, or a little more or a little less depending on how you feel, but take the same dose each day and give it those four full days to work. If it does, stay on that dose for at least a month before attempting a taper.  And please be advised this is strictly guesswork.  I'm just saying what I'd do in your position. There is no sure-fire way to calculate what would be best for you.

 

I want to add that I very strongly disagree with Meimei. You won't feel the full effects of a change in dose for up to four days, so adjusting the dose according to how you feel over the first 24 hours would be a mistake. You could end up increasing your dose unnecessarily that way and end up overstimulated.

PS... it's entirely possible you started to feel better once the solution finished deteriorating, and that you were actually taking a near zero dose. On my life, I can't figure why you would want to go back to the .48 mg dose of old... Skyler shaking her head sadly.

[Iggy131313]

if I knew for sure what dose I was taking before, if I did I would go back to that, but saying that, its been 3 weeks on the new dose now so it would probably be dangerous to go down a long way...

 

everyone I have spoken to has had a different opinion, shipko says hes not sure but doesnt think it would ahve lost much potency, there is for sure a difference as Im having another adverse reaction

 

 doubt I was at a near zero dose, and I didnt know this was going o happen, if I had known, Im not sure what I would have done but I would have at least gven it more thought

 

Ill have to see how I react to this tiny drop in dose, dropped 0.02, im very scared that I will have a major reaction to that

 

the akathisia is constant, never stops, not even at night, im in a world of pain and suffering again...i was very severe and very very ill before this, and have always been since this first happened, but I have ramped up into acute again since this new bottle

[Iggy131313]

hmmm, does liquid celexa derterote over 24 hours if I made a batch with 1 drop and stored it?

 

At the moment I titrate 1 drop with 5mg of water and take just over 1ml of the titarted liquid, I dscard the rest...could I use the solution of titrated poison I hav emade for longer than 1 day? how could I find out/?

[Skyler]

Ill have to see how I react to this tiny drop in dose, dropped 0.02, im very scared that I will have a major reaction to that

 

the akathisia is constant, never stops, not even at night, im in a world of pain and suffering again...i was very severe and very very ill before this, and have always been since this first happened, but I have ramped up into acute again since this new bottle

I can't say Caroline.. but you need to give the full story when you ask for advice (maybe put it in your sig line?), and be very careful whose advice you take.. I can't respond to what you might be mixing up on your own, and to be honest, I'm just not very active on the forum now.. but I hate to see all your Sx getting ramped up again.

 

I don't know what to suggest in the face of your being on the newer medication for 3 or 4 weeks.. but the old medication said no more than 16 weeks beyond the date you opened the vial, and you were on it for a year? That might be very significant. There was a reason they put the notice on the bottle and you were WAY over.

[Iggy131313]

Im not sure where I didnt put the whole story skyler..do you mean about being on the new bottle for 3 weeks? i estimate its about 3 weeks, i got the new bottle on the 19th aygust but I know I ddnt take it straght away, it was a few days...I sent a message to a friend sayng I was in a bad wave on the 26th, 1 week later, so I either started it then or a few days before...so that would make it around 3 weeks on the new dose, I was making excuses at the time to why I was dong worse, it was the week after my period when I am always worse anyway, then I was blaming ovulation and stress etc, it wasnt until It got even worse that I realised there was more to this....

 

m going to be using my journal over the next few weeks as I feel im gong to need support but also its helpful to document things for myself

 

today is day 2 on the reduced dose and day 3 of my period, I always get worse during my period, and more so the week after, this wasnt the best time for me to make a drop but I dont have much choice......for me, my over sensitivity to serotonin is unreal, my best week is the week before my period when serotonin is much lower, then once I come on and serotonin starts to build thats when I suffer.....anything that raises serotonin makes me worse, the full moon, fish oils, low barrometric pressure.....and anything that lowers serotonin helps me, or increases dopamine helps me.....

 

becasue of that you would think that making drops in my dose would help and not make me wworse, so I just dont understand why that drop last year had such a devestating effect on me, all I can do now is wait another 2 days and see if this tiny drop I made yesterday makes me better or worse, or does nothing, I can cope with 2 of those options, but f I get worse from here god only knows what Im going to do....

 

please PLEASE no one say happy birthday, but today is my birthday again, 3rd birthday n this state, if  hadnt had to use the new bottle I ould have been in a much better place and might have had a sem ok day, but thats not going to happen...

 

I hardly slept last night, the akathisia was strong and my on and off sleep full of horrific nightmares, and horrific sensations waving over me, when I woke up at 7.30am I was racked with terror (for no reason of course) and akathisia, I rocked bac and forth but its not really helping, got up but nearly passed out...my vision is very bad, and dp/dr very strong, Im experiencing a million horrific sensations all at once...

 

I didnt really have the morning terror for a while, usually my symptoms started to get worse at 12, 2, 3, and then really REALLY bad at 5 (when serotonin starts to peak in the system) and perhaps by 9 or 10pm I was not too bad, and my sleep was good.....but now im back to morning terror..Ive been heavng and retching all morning and feel absolutley horrific, back to square 1 and no idea how Im gong to try and function today....

 

Im really interested to know if I can make a batch of citalopram titration and store it, if not, that mght be a clue as to why the last drop hit me so damn hard as  was dong that with the dose before that last drop, I have no dea where or how I could find that out, the manufactuer would just say no, they are A holes and gave me no information at all.....and I cant find anything onlne, if anyone has any clue I would be really grateful to know

[Iggy131313]

what is really scaring me at the moment is that as I am having yet another adverse reaction to an ssri, that not only am I back at day 1 but that I may have done even more damage and not be able to receover t..ever..I was already very doubtful I could make any knd of recovery, and now I have further damaged all the receptors that were already damaged, I just dont know what hope there is left

 

Ive ssen it happen before, solida who took st johns wart at 2 years and never recovered after that, now at 8 years off

 

and also bunny88 on PP....she took tyrosine at 2 years and it gave her 100% anheonia and 3 years later its still 100% no improvemnts at all...Ive messed up so much and Im very scared that this is will be the one reaction too far, push me past being able to recover

[btdt]

How has your liver been thru this entire taper and drug use?

 

Here is one thing to think about.  It is from another site as they say.  

IF your liver was affected badly by taking the drug as it heals it will use the drug more efficiently.  Which I think means you can take less and still have effects like you are taking more. 

For myself my liver was badly hurt by effexor and years of drug use of other Ads.  I still have issues with many other drugs I can't say for sure this is the reason but I suspect it is as I do not have the ability to clear drugs like a normal live could.  My liver did not bounce back at least not yet tho I am treating it with the utmost care.  If your liver has bounced back it could change how it handles the drugs. 

[Iggy131313]

thanks hon but I dont think this has anything to do with my liver, this is all about the over sensitised receptors in my brain, mainly over sensitised serotonin receptors....

 

yesterday was awful, terrble, i cant even describe the akathisia..its beyond words and im terrified that simply lowering the ssri wont help me, that I have done more dmage to the serotonin receptors and sensitised them even more and this is now not gong to recover...

 

another thing is that this mornng when I took my dose I realised I have made a terrible mistake...i measured out on my new 1mg syringe what 0.02mgs was, and that was the amount I was to drop...but instead of doing that I have been TAKNG the 0.02...so I have dropped by 0.06 insrteead of 0.02...oh well too late to mess about now after 3 doses, Im better to wait and see how this drop effects me tomorrow, so Ive actually tapered over 10% instead of the timy less than 5% drop that I meant to make, another example of how messed up my brain is right now, and it took me AGES to workk out the new dose and I didnt do it right at all

 

all I can do is hang onto the hope that i wont react too badly to the drop...the old med must have lost more than 10% potecy over the 2 years I was using it, but I dont supose that even matter after taking the higher potency med for 3 weeks

 

woke with akathisia this mornng which is a very bad sign as its been terror over the past few days, and terror for me is a lower level of aathisia, which is why Im quite sure from readng other peoples posts that my main ssue is norepinephrine