☼ Cymbaltawithdrawal5600: Introduction

September 11, 2015

I have struggled for days since then, wanting to say something but unable to do so. I am finding this board very unsupportive of late but unable to say anything for fear of being banned. There is nowhere for some of us to go to get support. I cannot believe I suffered through the horror of wd to be reduced to wanting a few crumbs of support from an online board. I had hoped life was going to be better.

I guess its just time to cut the cord.

CW, I appreciate you are upset and that has, in part contributed to the discussion on this thread about how we engage as mods. As you know, this isn't an easy role to be in and I welcome the discussion.

However, I don't appreciate the construction of us as ogres that would ban someone for raising a concern or expressing a desire for more support. There is a clearly stated 'things that will get you banned or warned' policy and those things happen very rarely when you consider the number of members and posts on this site. Raising concerns/expressing views in a rational respectful way is very different to talking back aggressively and disrespectfully (the latter is what gets people warned and then banned).

Dalsaan

September 11, 2015

CW, I'm sorry to hear you are finding the board restrictive.

On the one hand, it seems to indicate to me that you are feeling well enough to be frustrated with the limitations of this forum - that you want larger horizons.

On the other hand, it is saddening to hear you believe you would be banned for expressing your opinion. I believe it is possible to express your opinion - as Free did - without "attacking" or "arguing" with the mods. (as you know, that is a "warning" offence)

But - just like Donald Trump (egads) if you speak up, you might find that there are many who are thinking what you are, and I, for one, take a karate approach - if I don't get "corrections," how will I learn anything? Feedback is so valuable.

I echo what Dalsaan said, maybe more softly, I hope you can still find a place here; you are a valuable member of this community.

March 8, 2016

Hiya CW , good to see you. How are your frenula ?

March 14, 2016

Out of a need for distraction I sometimes read the site. I saw this topic and its comments and did not think much about it as I did not read the article. Something made me go back for a look. For you see, I have been looking back over my life to see what I could have done differently instead of taking antidepressants. This article provided the rest of the information I needed. I could not have done it any differently, sadly. If you read to the end be careful, there's a few triggering words coming up.

Been depressed for as long as I could remember and remember being anxious as a child too. But with angry, controlling, slap happy parents my only hope was to finally leave home. That started a lifetime of leaving EVERYTHING, jobs, marriage, friendships, apartments, you name it. All because my parents did not give me to tools to handle life. They just beat the crap out of me and my sister till we shut up and did what they wanted. I grew up to be a mean, passive aggressive person as a result and could never figure out why I could not get along like everyone else. Used alcohol, sex, shopping, drugs, time wasting computer games, metaphysical churches, self improvement courses and trainings (like the Forum) you name it, just to cope with life. Always leaving for what I thought was better because where I was always got too uncomfortable to stay.

Could not find a job I could stay at for any length of time and that's the key. You have to be able to eat and pay rent to get along in the world. I'd had yet another breakdown where I could not stop crying at work and the clinic was all too happy to give me ADs. 4th time, now it's meds for life.

Meds worked pretty well for a time, just like the article says. But they they had to be tweaked, added to, the merry go round. But I was feeling better initially than any other time in my life (that SNRI was the key I think). Started up 2 businesses, was my own boss. Something I always should have been. The drugs dampen anxiety and give you a sense of power over your destiny.

But that power gets replaced by apathy and dullness and I had to drink gallons of caffeine to offset the sedation. Had no clue my body had become numb and I was not taking care of business because there were days I had some unnamed anxiety so I would cancel appointments. Lost clients and never replaced them. Gained a lot of weight and chewed through sugary stuff constantly.

I kept waiting for the time when I would be able to get a handle on the life problems that caused the need for ADs but I never seemed to get around to it. And I had no clue what to do. Therapy probably would have helped but I never saved any money, spent it on crafts and computer toys that just piled up in my now messy house.

The honeymoon was over in less than 8 years, see the first post in my pages long thread. TL;DR? I went off cold turkey by accident.

41/2 years off drugs now and life is a different kind of hell. I have chronic depression and am plagued by regret, rumination, apathy and the inability to get joy from anything. The word 'anhedonia' barely describes it. Can't hold a job and can't seem to make friends. The loneliness is crushing. I have gotten old all of a sudden and really stiff. My body does not want to release extra pounds even with a 1200 calorie diet and exercise. And I've spent money on craft projects that haven't gone anywhere and I am sick with frustration that such a simple thing brings no satisfaction anymore. I cannot find anything to keep myself distracted.

I look back and see no other way I could have jump started my life out of the rut it had fallen into. I was never given the tools or information on how to live a happy life, was always seeking to avoid pain. Slept poorly, ate poorly, shunned exercise, stayed indoors on the computer. Believed in airy fairy crap far too long till it ruined my life (but it was a great distraction!) And did not find out the biggest problem till just a year or so ago: the way I was raised made it impossible to form intimate relationships with people. That's the worst. And apparently therapy is difficult and often fails. What I have always felt inside was the symptom of this, I have never felt loved. EVER. Never. Never knew it was me and not always the people I picked, and it was not my fault but I always thought it was.

So yes, I would have taken the ADs but had I known they were not a cure but a jump start, I would have had to find a way to get my original problem solved (had I even known about it!) and then weaned off the drugs before I became addicted and hopelessly damaged. But the docs don't wean, they don't know how and all they can do is change and add. There's no way I'd touch them now. I'll be lucky I don't succumb to a suicidal impulse when the need to remain alive for my mother is past. I don't foresee this condition improving much. My own mother knew they weren't a good idea but she never said a word. I don't think I will ever be able to forgive her. She never gave me guidance or skills for anything, she just used the back of her hand and a plastic fly swatter to relieve her temper. Bytch. Feels good to say that, sorry to say. But I'd never say it to her face. I guess she figured out I'd be smart enough to figure it out myself and I did. I just figured it out wrong.

That's just the way it is. I don't know that I'll be able to live long enough and that my "receptors" will ever "up-regulate". No one can tell you that. (And I have lost the desire to try to live better, eat better and get out more to speed the process along. I am easily discouraged as you can see). I happen to think it is futile to hope it will happen before the real damage from the years of bad living and drug use takes its toll. Maybe someone just starting on the drug-go-round will see this and be warned off. Fat chance, they will surely see more ads for sexy new AD drugs before they will happen on this lone voice crying out in the wilderness.

But I sure hope the rest of you are luckier than I!

March 14, 2016

You have a good heart cw dont give up hope.

March 15, 2016

I'd wondered what happened with you...had hopedyou were recovered...so so sorry...life can be so unfair...we're all at the mercy of the circumstnces we're born into...we all deserve to be loved in this life but that doesn't mean we will be...we have to find it in ourselves somehow to give us what we didn't get from people that didn't know how to parent...I don't think I ever felt really loved either..probably why I got pregnant at 17...justwant you to know you're not alone and I care about what happens to you and my heart aches for you.

March 15, 2016

I go thru times like that too CW up and down. Eventually sooner or later something will spur me on to get moving again. It may not be a job or a big deal but once I move from the stuck place it seems options open up somewhat. I am betting that is the the way it will be with you too. For me it is not always big things it is never big things I am not up to big things..but it helps to make life more decent.

I have often been an extremely social person... teaching classes taking courses running committees ... that is who I was... and some times I wonder who that person was. I am saying that cause I think even if you did not have the early life you had the affects of the drugs are in play or could be in play. As I find it hard to be social now it could be I have stayed in the house too long and have lost the skills but I bet there is some wd components in play as I have felt this way before and it passed... hoping it passes for you too.

I wish you peace

B

March 16, 2016

Thanks for the votes of confidence nz, b and dire. It just is what it is. I only decided after all of these months to update my topic a bit and came back this morning because I wanted to add something about how I see recovery progressing for me from here on in.

I may not have made it clear that in my case (at least) the shitstorm of physical wd symptoms has died down completely. The only possible remnant is 4 am wakings quite frequently. But they aren't jarring and because I am not punching a time clock they only interfere with my life in the sense that I immediately have to start listening to the crap in my head again. Sometimes I can even go back to sleep but I usually always wake when it is still dark out. Kind of a vicious cycle in that then I cannot seem to stay awake past 9pm most nights and as my activity level is pretty low it obviates the need for much sleep being required. Even when I was exercising last summer I was still only getting about 6 hours a night. But consistently nightmare free and the few that have come weren't bad.

So it definitely gets better. But here's the thing: most that even bother to read this won't imagine it applies to them and will persist in trying gosh knows what supplement or device or something to try to help things along instead of just the basics. I used to have the basics in my sig but took it out because people don't (or can't) read remember and follow while in the grip of wd.

And maybe the collected wisdom for here is just plain wrong and only works for a select few, I don't know. The proliferation of repetitive topics in the symptoms forum bears this out. There are 2 important articles here on this site, one relativly recent (and a specific recovery story) that are all that I needed to get through this and that is what helped me. And the basics and something for distraction. And even if I tell you what they are you'll still go on looking for something else. That is just how these drugs affect your mind.

The rest will come if it comes. The reasons for me ever starting drugs are still in my psyche and I have for the most part decided I am just going to live with them as best I can. I firmly believe that the taking of drugs that manipulate your EXPERIENCE of the world do create some sort of a debt that has to be paid back. How long that takes is anyone's guess. On ADs I know for sure I was not feeling the full range of emotions, either low (or high) and what is primarily happening right now is feeling the lows. But it is way more manageable since my body has calmed down. I sure never want to go through THAT again.

The one thing that NEVER works, I have found, is to try to explain this to people who are currently on ADs and whose drugs are 'working' for them. They cling so tightly to the belief that they are being helped and it annoys me no end that when I tell them the drugs don't work in the long run and the price you pay for taking them is too high they refuse to believe and can't see why I don't go back on them to 'cure' my continuing depression. I just barely escaped with my life and they have no concept of the hell of wd syndrome, none, but they THINK they do just because they remember what they felt like when they were depressed. A bit of akasthesia would change their mind in a heartbeat and then they'd go back to their drugs and leave me the hell alone (if they could!). Sheesh, as bad as it was while on the drugs I would have never WILLINGLY stopped them myself! I know they mean well but the extent of their belief in drugs and doctors is disheartening. I find it better to leave them to their illusions. For me, I know I don't have another recovery left in me. And hell, just the startup symptoms would be enough to tip me over the edge I am sure.

So for some, the physical gets lots better in time, the mental/emotional kinda hangs on way longer, like a relative you cannot 'un relative' away like you can 'un friend' someone on facecrap.

I haven't quite figured out which is worse, the physical or the mental. It just is what it is. Ah, but to be able to sleep again is priceless. Best not to want for much more than that I think. Six hours of not having to listen to my head is a blessing you just can't believe. I hope you all get blessed.

March 16, 2016

Hello CW! I really enjoyed your matter of fact account just now.

And you know I'm very curious about whuch two articles you have in mind...

When reading your previous post with equally terse account of your shortcomings I kept thinking if CW could also give us a list of her strong points... don't you think it would be an interesting exercise? There must be some things about you and your particular life experience that are also good

Most people can't cope with being so brutally honest about their shortcomings and look them straight in the eye without flinching - that's a strength.

March 16, 2016

cw, you sound sad and angry.

A lot of my history is similar to yours. Some time back, I realized that I believed I would be empty, I would be nothing, if I did not feel very depressed and angry. That was a reason I found it difficult to change.

You've identified what you lack, how would you want to fill it up? You might make a plan to get what you're missing -- very tiny steps at first. For example, if you want more friends, try very safe social interactions, such as you might find on Meetup. Or work with pets by offering local dog-walking, cat-sitting, or volunteer at an animal adoption center.

Learning meditation, which is something you can easily do at home, can stop the chatter in your head. CBT requires more work, but you might do that, too.

I beg to differ about your interpretation of the proliferation of topics in the Symptoms area. Most new topics are started by newbies who fail to search for existing topics. The number of topics indicates a frequency of symptoms, particularly in the early stages of withdrawal, but nothing about the persistence of symptoms.

As you know, we lack information about persistence of symptoms and patterns of healing because many members visit for a short while and then stop posting updates. It's just as likely that these people found the information they needed, tapered as gradually as they needed, and went off drugs successfully.

March 16, 2016

It is what it is indeed and if your hit the negativity spot it will last a time that is my experience I think I have wrote about it more than once if not here then other places... deep negativity to me is a stage in wd... it does pass eventually.

As for the noise in your head what helped me was the book the power of now ...

one exercise in the book was key for me

here it is so you don't have to buy or read it

if you don't want to..

Intently watch for the next thought... when one comes go back to watching intently....

repeat

That is it and it stop the brain crap... the more I did it the better it worked. I hope it works for you it made a big difference to me.

wishing you peace CW

March 17, 2016

Alto, I have to tell you I am thrilled to have you comment in my thread and I am relieved you did not come down on me for referring to my condition as 'depressed'. It's my catch all term instead of saying precisely every single moment what I am feeling: anger, jealousy, irritation, disgust, self loathing, you know the usual suspects. But I haven't ever really identified 'sad' in the mix. I think I skip right past sad into anger and then something else akin to a 'giving up but still secretly hoping something changes' but feeling ineffective at causing that change.

All of what you have suggested (except for meditation, I refuse that for now as that is what I was doing before wd syndrome hit 2 yrs ago) I have tried. It just is not bringing results and I have not identified the problem except for feeling it is 'me'. People just don't want me for what I want to do.

No sense going into detail on it, it just bums me out. This holding pattern has been awful, this self imposed waiting on my mother's life to finish. Trying and not finding outlets for my skills. This weekend I am seeing an old acquaintance that happened to see a failed craft project (that I lost money on) and she seems to think she has an idea for me to make money. I am pretty 'not so sure about it' but I am still going to check it out.

I am just tired, discouraged and 'depressed' is a good enough term for it.

The thing about the symptoms forum is that it is useless for finding good information. Right now there are at least 3 posts on the front page referring to 'head pain'. WTH? And the good threads are buried so deep only the old timers know they are even there.

If it were up to me I'd take every post out of there where someone is asking about THEIR symptom and make them ask it in their own thread. Take all the other stuff and organize it and don't allow posts from anyone except Admin.

Then again, I'll just tell myself (so you don't have to) to go start my own board.

The inability to find employment doing what I used to to has greatly afected my ability to see a brighter future. Even when I take off the dark glasses I know I am looking through, it is still the ME that is looking out. I an tired of trying I guess.

And btdt, thanks for the info and I have the book. Even if I make the thoughts go away (and if you read Tolle and others you'll see that that is not really what the goal is) I still am living with a person I cannot seem to like. My 'liking' is so conditional on what I DO, not what I AM.

There's the rub.

The years on the drugs did not do me a great favor. Too bad there's no 'do overs' in life.

But the people in the church I joined seem to like me just fine. That's a plus even if the religion part does not seem to be helping much. That is one foray into the world that has seemed to be a success.

March 17, 2016

Before I crawl back into my cave, I want to post something that made me smile.

Last night I was eating a hard boiled egg and must have swallowed it too fast for it stuck in my throat. Ow, that really hurt and for a moment I was close to panic because it would not go down. When the pain subsided and the lump dispersed I called up Dr. G to see if this happens a lot with cooked egg.

In looking through the search results I came across a site where I have a sneaking suspicion the writer is 'English as a second language' and also many of his readers and commenters might be too. The first comment was what to do when food gets stuck in your throat:

"When any food gets stuck in throat, you should rub your forehead in a circular motion many times. Doing this stimulates the stored serotonin in the brain which causes the bone, food or any other thing stuck in throat to come out."

Um, what??????

March 17, 2016

sounds a bit weird, but on a related note, ive found that consciously speaking about what bodily movements you need to happen, or helping your brain reorient itself by using movements or self-stimulation (like rubbing skin, drawing lines, etc) can help work out problems of muscle dysfunction. it can help with swallowing, with walking, etc.

there have been times where i had to talk my way through eating a meal. fork up and into mouth without stabbing myself, chewing without biting myself, swallowing without choking. just one slow step at a time, with conscious will and awareness.

March 17, 2016

When I was in my teens I had taken 2 hard boiled eggs to work. I had to hurry up and finish my lunch and stuck a whole egg in my mouth. I wasn't able to get my teeth into it to break it up. I can't remember what I did. Probably had to pull it out with my fingers :blush:

Pleased you didn't choke on it (otherwise you wouldn't be able to post to tell us about it!). I've done something similar with stringy mozzarella cheese from a pizza going down my throat and not being able to move it with my tongue and having to pull it out with my fingers. It's a very scary thing to go through.

March 17, 2016

Please don't worry about the condition of the Symptoms forum. It is doing what it's supposed to do, including giving people a place to vent.

March 18, 2016

I am a cherry picker I always take what I need and leave the rest sometimes cause I don't want it or need it and other times because getting the one bit I did need took all I had in me. So making the thoughts go away was ENOUGH... I love that word. I think you have hit the negativity stage as I said before it will pass in time. When you in it there is not enough of anything good and plenty of all bad things... including ideas about self and regret guilt and how bad a person I am.... it was a difficult time for me. I let it get out of hand a few times and had to jerk myself back to my low baseline. I am not sure but part of me thinks it has a limit and will just fade out eventually but it sure feels like it last way too long. I could have given you a hundred reason why I was a horrid person and self worth and self esteem were not in my vocabulary. It is a rough row to hoe... but it is doable. I am glad church is offering you a place to be ok. peace even I hope it offers you peace

During that stage I did read a lot of books one of them was on meditation many different types of healing ect... and I thought a lot about God and I prayed a lot for forgiveness mostly as I was bad... one of the meditation exercises was too look at things see them without labels ... I was at the beach one day and tried this on a seagull it was winter.

The more I looked at that bird the more wondrous it became to me...

I was wrapped head to toe in cloth and layers good old Canadian winter along with the wonder of this bird its great eyes each feather in the right place ... on top of all that it was standing on ice in bare feet!!!

I could not take my eyes off it... There I was coat hat boots mits scarf... x number of sweaters and there was this bird standing bare foot on ice.... when I want to whine I think of that bird. I also think God knows every feather on a bird... even if you not cool with God this minute the idea is interesting is it not...it pulled me out of myself and I went to hunt for the meaning tho I had it wrong then and now and had to look it up just now...

In order to understand his reasoning, you should read the entire context of the scripture he's referring to. Matthew 10:29-31: "Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without YOUR Father’s [knowledge]. 30 But the very hairs of YOUR head are all numbered. 31 Therefore have no fear: YOU are worth more than many sparrows."

and this I just found when I was looking up that...

Isaiah 40:29-31

29 He gives strength to the weary
and increases the power of the weak.
30 Even youths grow tired and weary,
and young men stumble and fall;
31 but those who hope in the LORD
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint

I was not alone. Suffering long and hard is long and hard... but at that moment I was not alone cause I chose to believe those words it was a choice of course. It helped me.

I am sorry if this is a bad idea as you said your not into God so much just now but what I have found is just when I was not into God so much he was into me ... good old footsteps ... I had better go now before I p you off.

I wish you peace

March 24, 2016

CW, I found your thread again!!! I tried to send you message, but my message storage is full.

April 12, 2016

Getting my thread ready:

The only success story I needed to read when I got here, now reposted courtesy of the Wayback Machine. I decided to post it here in my thread, someone else can copy it to the thread where it belongs. The internet is becoming a wasteland because of 'link rot'. I have bleeped out the name as this person long ago asked that it be removed from their story. To me this is the most famous of the 'pioneers' who figured out what happened, stopped the drugs and recovered. All grammar and spelling courtesy of the original poster. It used to be on the site but was removed some time ago. It's a fabulous resource (this story) that should be maintained. The site itself is still alive but not being added to as far as I know.

My Prozac (Sarafem, fluoxetine) Experience.
A Prozac-induced "Brain/Body-Crash" at the age of 29
I had thoughts and emotions that were not mine, thoughts and emotions that didn't belong to my personality, my character, that which makes me the person I am. Thoughts that were racing in my head like "resonating clouds of gas"...

Introduction
My name is CG and reside in Amsterdam, The Netherlands. I am 33 years of age, as of this time of writing, May 6, 2000. After 4 years I feel it's time to tell about my Prozac experience that has changed my belief system as well as my entire way of living. I think this experience will haunt me for the rest of my life and I think I'm ready to face that fact now. I've tried to "just forget it" in all kinds of ways, but as it feels, it's like once you've been there, there is no return. I have a few good friends who are really trying to understand me in this feeling, but I also know that's too much asked from them. I arrived at the place were I really wish to meet and talk to other Prozac/SSRI Survivors and I hope this story will be the start of this.

Prescription
In february 1994 I visited my family doctor (GP) and told him about my depression because of a stranded relationship. Because I had heard and read about the "magnificant new wonderdrug" Prozac and it's far fewer side effects then other anti-depressants I asked him for a prescription. There was no need for any form of psychotherapy because I knew very well the background of my depression and besides it wasn't that bad. If I had only knew then, what I know now, I wasn't depressed at all, I was feeling down and I just wanted to feel better, happy, not sad. -later a real depression would hit me hard after being under prozac's influence-. My family doctor prescribed Prozac 20 mg daily. About 5 to 6 times I took a monthly "cure" of Prozac 20 mg daily with intervals of a few months. My first response on Prozac was pretty good, I became more active, but looking back on that period I also became more reckless and naive, less bright and focused on my environment (people and circumstances). I was completely convinced of the innocence of this product and believed that it could actually help me feeling better. The only side effects that it gave me at first were some flu-like symptoms (a bit shaky), some nerve twitching beneath my right eye and a dry mouth, nothing very serious. My dream recall increased tremendously and they were more rich and vivid then ever. I've ended the last "cure" of Prozac (30 days) in april 1996.

Attack
On friday the 2nd of August 1996 (about 4 months later) I went to my family doctor for another 30 day prescription of Prozac because I still felt somewhat down these last few months. I took one pill that afternoon and went out of town to pay a visit to my parents. While driving in my car for about a half an hour, I suddenly felt a strange kind of dizziness in my head. I felt inconstant contractions to be followed by a very painfull stitch at the right side on top of my head, then followed by a sensation as if a bloodstream went down on my forehead. A milky mist came down upon my eye sight, although I still kept my vision, thank God. From my neck an extremely burning sensation radiated throughout of my whole body, especially my spine, arms and legs. My whole body felt like burning inside. Then a stiffening of my body followed and I had a constant feeling of "electricity pain" in my whole body. My body felt electrified, constantly! It's very hard to explain this feeling, but it's like goose-flesh so much intensified that it hurts extremely and keeps your body tensed...constantly! (-I did not had the comfortable feeling of a warm body anymore that belonged to me, but a "body" consisting of "wires" connected to electricity-)

I drove my car upon the verge and came in a state of shock. I remember that my first thought was: "It's over, this is a stroke and parts of my body will be paralyzed". Then I realized that couldn't be the case cause I could still move my body parts and I could still talk, but inside I was completely panic-stricken. What is happening to me? My God what if this won't go away? "I must keep my head cool, stay calm and drive on" were my thoughts.

I only parked for a few seconds upon that verge to check if I was still able to drive the car and drove on in the direction of my parents house. The whole incident, from the start of feeling dizzy, till the drove on to my parents, lasted less then 1 or 2 minutes. It took one Prozac-attack to blew away my comfortable feeling of self, of me in my body! The milky mist that came down upon my eye sight would stay for days. First thing I did when arriving at my parents house was immediately phoning the family doctor who tried to convince me that this was just some side effects I was going through and I should keep on taking the Prozac, which I did not, because in the state I was in, this "stuff" just had to leave my system, immediately! I've contacted 5 other doctors (amongst them a neurologist) who all said that if this indeed appeared to be a Prozac induced side effect at all, it would certainly pass within a few days. It did not! It continued and grew worse. I was so scared, I was so shocked and unknown of what had happened to me, and the responding of the doctors knocked me out. Physically and mentally I became a wreck, fractured. All I could do was lay down and trying to sleep.

Hell
From that moment on I would stay and move into my parents house for about one year. I couldn't work anymore, I couldn't focus anymore, I had changed from a selfconfident grown man into an extremely anxious pitiful creature, locked up inside, not able to function anymore. I got more then terrified, I couldn't rationalize anymore, I just couldn't bring my thoughts to the right proportions, and believe me, you would be terrified too, cause you think you're going crazy, out of your mind. It was very difficult for my parents, but they've cared for me as good as possible in that period, not really understanding what had happened to me and not able to properly communicate with me.

The first 14 days I went straight into hell, just pure and plain hell. My body, my nervous system, became extremely hypersensitive and totally out of control. It's difficult to explain but I wasn't in control anymore but my brains were, sending signals of pain throughout of my whole body. It was the most frightening experience in my whole life. My body felt as if it was turned inside out. I was so afraid and I had no idea if there was coming any relief of this. I did not committed suicide, but I don't know what I had done if that bit of a relief didn't came after 14 days. My ego (what you think you are) blew away into pieces. Boundaries that belonged to my personality structure were far exceeded. It's an intrusion of your integrity that is not easily to describe but I'll try to explain: I had thoughts and emotions that were not mine, thoughts and emotions that didn't belong to my personality, my character, that which makes me the person I am. Thoughts that were racing in my head like "resonating clouds of gas". The thoughts were extremely immoral, offensive, negative and from a selfdestructive kind. I was embarrassed by these thoughts and so afraid, not able to stop them. The thoughts were extremely clear and strong, I actually could "hear" the thoughts and it's very difficult to explain how that's like, but "resonating clouds of gas" fits the closest description. It's through this experience that I can better understand now how a phenomenon such as telepathy might work.

Next to it I experienced exaggerated feelings of compunction. I "condemned" myself for "sins" from my childhood. The emotions that came up were horrible with thoughts like: "how do you think to live on with this ?", again, I just couldn't rationalize anymore, as responsible as "I" made myself for these "sins". In my mind I also could "see" symbols (and you have to understand that I saw it very clearly, like in a very vivid dream experience), symbols that scared the **** out of me, spires (like in the dark ages), people with masks, etc., all kind of bizarre and scrappy. I got oversensitive for coffee, herbs, etc.. I had become extremely hypersensitive to light and sound, which caused me pain upon top of my head, symptoms you can best compare with meningitis. My neck muscles were heavily contracted. I couldn't watch any movie with more or less contained violence. It scared me, my nervoussystem just couldn't bear it.

Nightmares
Nightmares that I experienced were horrible, violent, frightening and so realistic that after awakening it took me some time to realize that I was already awake, and that this was a nightmare, not happening in real-time. That was another symptom: the filter between my sense of reality and my dreams got blurred. I felt like I was in a dream-like state (locked up inside) and couldn't woke up from it. I still have this symptom occasionaly, after 4 years now. In one of the nightmares I was raped by a good friend of mine, it was all so horrible. Can you imagine someone very close to you, you really know well, you care for this individual's integrity and you have a realistic nightmare being raped by this person. Then you "wake up" from this nightmare not realizing that you are awake already. Sometimes at night I woke up with such pressure on my chest (it litterly felt as if someone was pushing on my chest) that I had difficulty with breathing. A lot of nights I even did not dare to sleep alone. My heartbeats were heavy and up-speeded along with the excessive sweating of my body, especially at night. I really do not understand why I did not drove in panic to the hospital at some nights, but I just didn't. At some nights I didn't dare to sleep at all, because of the realistic nightmares that gave me a feeling as if something evil did came over me. I was also afraid to wake up being totally paralyzed, and the feeling of this being possible was very strong. It felt like anything could happen, I wasn't in control anymore, but my prozac-influenced brain was!

"Recovery"
After 14 days I discovered a little light at the end of the tunnel. After 40 days the burning "electricity pain" (electrified feeling) in my body had slightly changed in an all embracing itch, which appeared to be a blessing compared with the hell of inner nerve pain. The "resonating clouds of gas" thoughts in my head, slightly changed into a feeling of a "stone" in my head. This "stone" goes accompanied with contractions in my forehead and radiates behind my nose to my fore teeth.

After those 4 years now, the "stone" as well as the contractions are still returning when I work behind a computerscreen (indeed right now). After those 4 years I still experience occasionaly shivering of my body and twitching and jerking in my legs. After those 4 years I still experience a kind of aliënation from my emotions. It feels like you've lost a part of yourself and some untrustable stranger substitutes that part. I'm just glad that I can live a "normal" life right now. I'm still bitter, who's gonna give me back what I've lost? The battle I'm still fighting to win, is to win myself back again, which means: the complete and trusted feeling of "self" I once used to have!

Support and Warnings
I know I'm not alone, I'm just one of many, a Prozac Survivor, an SSRI Survivor. I do wish to meet a lot of others now who are also SSRI Survivors. Here in the Netherlands I've had a tremendous support by Frank van Meerendonk, the founder of the Prozac Survivors Support Group (PSSG) in The Netherlands. He has gathered an abundance of information concerning SSRI's, horrendous experiences, trials and neurological research.

It's shocking to know that there are so many individuals on SSRI's nowadays in 2000 - about 40.000.000 worldwide on Prozac, not to mention the other SSRI's- after so many victims crying out to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Children have become targets too now. SSRI's are already being prescribed to children at the age of 6. The myth of "ADHD" has made it possible for them being drugged with Ritalin or Dexedrine which are Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitors. The actions of these drugs are comparable to the actions of Cocaine or Speed (Amphetamine) and we all know what these type of drugs are capable of.

There is NO excuse for the pharmaceutical industry, producing these type of mind- altering drugs, commercializing them, creating copy-cat Prozac-clones, with a cute selling name, but with the SAME diabolical effect, working on the SAME serotonergic and related dopaminergic system in the brain....Prozac, Sarafem, Paxil, Seroxat, Zoloft, Lustral, Luvox, Fevarin, Celexa, Cipramil, Anafranil, Meridia, Effexor, Desyrel, Serzone, Remeron, Redux, Fen-Phen, etc.....

In September 1997 the serotonin acting diet-drugs Redux and Fen-Phen had to be withdrawn by the FDA because of their serious life-threatening side-effects, damaging the brain, heart and lungs. When will other serotonin boosting drugs follow the same example? Too much serotonin is definitely something to avoid. It is important to educate the future generation about the inheritance of these so called anti-depressants or Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors.

By CG
The Netherlands
May 6, 2000

April 12, 2016

WiggleIt wrote above:

CW, I found your thread again!!! I tried to send you message, but my message storage is full.

Well dang it girl empty the box and talk to me!!!!

Alternate contact info in my profile, if you know where to look.......

April 12, 2016

To clean out a clogged message box (for all you hoarders out there) and start a new collection, in the message you can 'archive' each convo. What this does is send you an email of all the messages in the thread (do the archive for each person's convo). You can keep them that way and then delete them from your inbox, paving the way for new messages = profit!

EditedToAdd: the 'archive convo' link is at the bottom of the conversation.

April 12, 2016

And you know I'm very curious about whuch two articles you have in mind...

Bubble asked this back in March and including those 2 articles (after I find them again) here in my thread will be the next step in getting my thread ready. I just have to find the time and the mental energy needed to search for them again (since this site doesn't do search well at all). I might be lucky and find someone reading them as I peruse the Online List, that's how I find all the good stuff.......

April 12, 2016

I've read your threads and some posts to people before and I just wanted to say I agree with nz11 that yes, you do have a good heart <3

April 12, 2016

that yes, you do have a good heart <3

BUT - (and after statements like that there is also a 'but')

an abrasive personality, sigh. Can't have it all. ~~Good looks~~, brains, and I can make and fix things but I have a scratchy mien.

You're a sweetie L&L and I hope you're surviving......

April 12, 2016

Article #2 for my thread prep:

Although this was posted waaaaay after I was through the most brutal part of withdrawal (the second phase, not the initial) when I read this I intuitively knew that if you could read this and GET IT, you'd have the battle halfway won. I knew if I waited I'd catch someone reading it and that's how I found it today.

Begin very long quote so I am not using a quote box:

Posted 03 December 2015 - 07:41 AM

This was sent to me by one of our members who asked me to post it. It was written in the context of benzo withdrawal, but I believe it is equally applicable to the healing process of AD withdrawal (or, as the author puts it, "recovery"). This is very uplifting at least it was for me. It is long but, in my view, worth it.

This will hopefully be an encouraging email to make you feel SAFE and ENCOURAGED.

As some of you may know, my degrees are in speech-language pathology (B.A and M.S.)
As part of my Masters study, a big portion of my classes were in neuroanatomy and physiology.
I learned firsthand how to look at a person who had just undergone a stroke or brain injury and read the symptoms, the radiology reports, the doctor's notes, and based on those symptoms, to form an image in my mind of what was affected in the brain injury - as well as how to formulate a treatment plan to help that person rehabilitate. For a therapist in a hospital, it is much more than "speech and language". It is about reteaching how to swallow, eat, rebuilding memory, rebuilding concentation and attention, rebuilding focus, rebuilding executive functioning skills (planning and acting on a plan) -pretty much ANYTHING that is involved in "thinking" that helps you get OUT of a coma, OUT of a hospital, and back to life, work, and school.

I had NO idea I would ever personally undergo a brain injury. But insomuch as I have now indeed endured one, I often laid there in waves and attempted to "analyze and decipher" what was happening in my brain as I healed. I thought you all might like to read this. It gives potential answers to all the "WHY?" questions we have about what is happening to us mentally.

First of all, a TRUTH to accept is that WE HEAL. I have seen people emerge from comas who cannot remember who they are - HEAL.
They can't remember how to walk (we do).
They can't write their names (we can).
They cannot tell you the year or the president (I was SO bad I was unsure of this at times, but generally, I was oriented to this).
They often cannot remember family members (we can -our D/R can be hideous, but we remember them).
THEY have to work through many hours of therapy to heal. But most of them do - and from TRAUMATIC PHYSICAL brain trauma that can tear tissue and tear nerves.
We have none of that. We don't have to undergo therapy. We simply have to wait.

Most of us, me included, didn't expect the temporary "brain injury" we got when jumping off benzos.
But I am starting to realize through my own experience and my educational background, that there is a PURPOSE in every symptom we have. I have had months and months to analyze what is likely going on in the brain at a gross level - and I want to attempt to explain certain symptoms in a way that we can visualize - so that they are less "scary" and more "telling" of the healing that is happening.

First off - let's start with GABA and Glutamate. Most of you may know how this works by this point. But for those that don't, we have a huge nervous system of millions of nerves (neurons). They don't "touch" each other. They are separated by a tiny space in between. However, they communicate via chemicals. The 2 MAIN chemicals in the entire nervous system are the BIG GUNS. They are GABA and Glutamate. They are BOTH at work at ALL times in the CNS. It isn't like one is working and then the other is working. They are BOTH ALWAYS working in tandem to control every aspect of movement, sensation - everything. They take the incoming information and appropriately pass it along - they "trim up" the information appropriately so that we can process it. They are like the steel structure of a building. The entire building needs a steel structure to stand.

GABA is inihibitory. If a nerve releases GABA - it is to Inhibit function - this could be to "slow it down" or it could be to "limit the sensory input" so that we can process it. In the same way, GABA might be released to help "steady" your hand while doing something like painting a very detailed painting. GABA "shores up" movements to make them more fluid. That's just in a nutshell. Of COURSE it does a lot more than this, but the idea is that GABA is present in the ENTIRE CNS and ALWAYS working to balance every sensation, movement, etc.

Likewise, Glutamate is the balance to GABA. It is the "excitatory" transmitter. It fires to speed things up - to initiate action - to make things "go". There's a lot more to it, but Glutamate is kinda the opposite of GABA.

BOTH are required to work at all times. Neurons are ALL ALWAYS firing off GABA and Glutamate on a endless cycle all throughout the nervous system. It's quite amazing really.

What does a benzo do? If a person is anxious - they may be so stressed that they cannot overcome a very traumatic event or anxious situation. If a doctor prescribes a benzo - the benzo comes in and sorta "holds the door open" for ALL the GABA in the system to FLOOD into the nerves - even when that is not what the nerves would actually want to occur. The immediate effect is that EVERYTHING ni the body SLOWS DOWN and is inhibited. This might be helpful during surgery, for anesthesia, for a seizure disorder. Yes - the benzo - by definition - will act on GABA and "slow everything down". And yes - the net effect of this is that a person may feel drowsy, calm, less anxious... everything is being inhibited. And in general, taking a benzo for "one day" is okay. When the benzo is gone, the body just reverts back to regular operation.
HOWEVER, if a person takes a benzo day after day, while indeed the person feels less anxious, the body begins to realize that it cannot DO the things it needs to do in this very slowed-down neuron state. It cannot make hormones. It cannot create enzymes. It cannot digest correctly. It cannot keep a heart going efficiently. It cannot get enough oxygen- and on and on. The body NEEDS to run at "normal" speed - not this "inhibited speed" all slowed down.
But what can the body do? It cannot "remove the benzo" from the system. The only choice the body has to maintain a regular speed is to do two things .. It can TURN OFF it's own GABA receptors - thereby rendering those benzos unable to affect the GABA in the system. And it can grow MORE excitatory Glutamate receptors to counteract the slow-down. And that's kinda exactly what happens....

Only - this isn't true balance either. The body does the best it can - but over time, things begin to suffer. The body cannot make enough serotonin in this state. Or dopamine. Some things get made in excess - and other things do not get made enough! During this time, a person may not be aware this is all going on. He may not be able to perceive any difference. But ONE day - the person may wake up sad - or not sleeping well - or unable to remember things fully - or his vision doesn't look right....and it becomes apparent the person has "hit tolerance". The body is taking the same amount of drug -but try as it might, it just cannot overcome what has occured. It can take weeks, months or years to hit tolerance. Some people do and some don't before trying to get off benzos. (I did. - it took me 9 months to hit tolerance. But it was fast. Once I hit it, I could notsleep more than 6 hours on all that klonopin AND Ambien! I couldn't remember things last week. I was crying all the time... something was wrong.)

The process to reverse this takes a while. GABA receptors have to UPregulate and effectively "reopen" or "grow back". Glutamate receptors must DOWNregulate, or effectively "turn off" or "prune back". And IN this mix, all the smaller monoamines (neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine) must somehow find a way to synthesize in the mix. Through weeks and months the body is rebuildling millions of neurons, and changing pathways, rebuilding GABA, downregulating Glutamate, rebuilding serotonin, rebuilding dopamine, rebuilding norepinephrine. And ALL the enzymes and hormones that need to be made are attempting to be made while this is going on. Basically- you have a building where the MAJOR streel structures are trying to be rebuilt at different times - ALL while people are coming and going in the building and attempting to work.

It would be like if the World Trade Center Towers hadn't completely fallen - but had crumbled inside in different places.. Imagine if you were trying to rebuild the tower - WHILE people were coming and going and trying to work in the building! You'd have to set up a temporary elevator - but when you needed to fix part of that area, you'd have to tear down that elevator and set up a temporary elevator somewhere else. And so on. You'd have to build, work around, then tear down, then build again, then work around, then build... ALL while people are coming and going, ALL while the furniture is being replaced, ALL while the walls are getting repainted... ALL while life is going on INSIDE the building. No doubt it would be chaotic. That is EXACTLY what is happening with windows and waves. The windows are where the body has "got it right" for a day or so - but then the building shifts and the brain works on something else - and it's chaos again while another temporary pathway is set up to reroute function until repairs are made.
And just like the Twin Towers- it's possible - but the buiding is a major effort -and it takes a good year or more sometimes.
(Now look at the new Tower that stands at Ground Zero! It's taller, stronger, and a symbol of freedom. JUST like you will be! )

So - okay - what is happening in that chaos? What parts of the brain are responsible for these symptoms?

Now, I don't "know" the following based on research, because not enough research has been done yet - but based on my studies in neuroanatomy and my own withdrawal experiences, here is how I have analyzed what is "happening" during wave symptoms. Remember, I have had to look at radiology reports of brain damage and estimate what a patient might present with - so this is very similar. Instead of a radiology report showing me what has been damaged, I'm using my own brain symptoms to surmise what is going on....

Let me first list brain structures and their functions. This will help you understand where things happen in the brain and when symptoms occur, what may be happening.

BRAIN STRUCTURES
- amygdala  - This is the FEAR center in the brain. It's a tiny part in the middle of your brain. Fear is protective and it's GREAT if you need to assess something that is dangerous and to ACT - like if a rabid dog were chasing you. - but it's hard in recoveyr when it's all you feel for months! But the FEAR is not truly in your MIND. It's in your BRAIN. There is too much glutamate acting here in the amygdala and not enough GABA. So the nerves are firing off in the fear center when nothing scary is really there in your environment. It is normal for that to happen given the circumstance physiologically. But it feels awful, doesn't it? I know. But it's just a brain structure. This can account for fear, agoraphobia, fear of water, fear of anything. It's not that you're really "scared" of the moon - it's that you're in almost constant fear because this brain structure is healing. The glutamate is pruning back. The GABA receptors are opening back up. It may or may not continue for awhile. It will abate. Then come back. But eventually, the brain will get it right.

-Hippocampus - This is the "memory" center of the brain. It ties in old memories to emotions. The same thing is happening here that is happening in the amygdala with GABA and Glutamate. So - voila. You get intrusive memories from ALL times in your life. It's wild and wicked and wooly. But it can't hurt you. And if you can learn to visualize this as what is happening - then you can learn to be objective and realize it's normal. And like the amygdala - it will come and go and frustrate you, but it will go away when the physiology is restored.

Hypothalamus This is the structure that is responsible for regulating body temperature. In early withdrawal, my body temperature would drop to 96 degrees in waves! Then 3 hours later, it would return to normal. I'd literally freeze in terror in bed for hours. I am sure it is more complicated that JUST the hypothalamus, but I could picture this part of my brain retuning and restructuring, and it was less scary that way.

The following structures in the brain are part of the "gray matter" or the "cortex "and what we consider to be the "higher brain"- the thinking and processing parts.

Frontal Lobe This is the part of the brain behind the front of the skull. It is responsible for planning things. For making decisions. For inhibiting emotions appropriately. It is the part of the brain you need if you want to make a sandwich and need to get out the ingredients and actually make the sandwich. I have seen people with brain injury be able to TELL you how to make a sandwich - but when they are standing there in front of all the ingredients, they cannot actually move to act to make it! They have frontal lobe damage. They can TELL someone how to make it. But they cannot themselves initiate doing it! As you can imagine, with therapy, and time to heal, this goes away. And we are a lot like this - but it goes away for us, too. I could not organize my children't toys just 4 months ago. Not a simple room of toys. I didn't know where to start and I literally could not mentally do it. I imagine this is partly why. No frontal lobe GABA. And too much Glutamate. But now, check out this post I"m typing. Obviously that changed.
This calms down and these things come back.

Occipital Lobe This is the vision center. t's at the back of your skull. In recovery, my nerves have been all wacked here. I see things as too bright - possible due to this lobe - and/or the actual visual nerves in the eyes. But no doubt people "see things" that aren't there. Vision is distorted. Things go blurry. Colors are totally off.Brightness is off. There are a hundred symptoms possible in vision alone! But again - it's a matter of time.

Vestibular System This is the system of semi-circular canals in the inner ear that are responsible for making you feel balanced in space. When this is "off" or damaged temporarily, you feel dizzy. Oh man, was I dizzy. Early off - I felt like I lived in a funhouse. Over time, a combination of this vestibular system and my damaged visual system made things look like they were "leaning". To this day, one eye sees things "correctly" and the other eye sees things as SLIGHTLY leaning. And it's not that the eye itself is seeing them that way. The healing vestibular system is working WITH the eye to "tell" the brain that that object looks like it is "moving left-wards" or "leaning". But it isn't. In waves, this can happen bad - and then be GONE - poof - in a window. This is just the vestibular system healing. It's gotten WAY better.

Temporal Lobe These lobes are on the side of your brain on each side near your ear. It makes up the whole left and ride side of your brain. This is where auditory information is processed, including hearnig itself, but also the "Meaning" of what we are hearing, as well as part of speech and language, emotion, and buncha other stuff. In early recovery, someone was talking to me and I couldn't tell you what they said past the first sentence. My auditory processing was ALL messed up. I couldn't picture what a person was saying to me in real time - and by the time I caught up to them, I was lost and they were talking about something else! Also - When I was laying there in bed, I could "hear" things that weren't there in the noise of my box fan. I'd hear the fan blowing -but I also "heard" like sickening circus music. I believe this is because there is noise coming into my ear - but my brain cannot adequately "prune" what it is hearing at differnet frequecies because there is not enough GABA to inhibit it to create something meaninful. There was all this "noise" and my brain was just firing off glutamate. So instead of actually "processing" the noise - it was firing off ideas about what it was hearing - and they were ALL wrong. I would be hearing what sounded like circus music - and at the same time, my poor brain was looking through my hippocampus to find all the memories I ever had of being at the circus - and then I'm reliving those memories- and at the same time, my amygdala is getting fired upon - so I'm in fear. So I'm a quivering mess of a person laying in the bed hearing and seeing things and remembering times in my childhood and scared to pieces. Seriously? Yes - I felt crazy. But not in my MIND. It was my BRAIN. It's the BRAIN. And it's normal. The structures in the brain are "obligated" to work this way.

That brings me to my next point... WHY do all of us in benzo recovery have generally the same symptoms? Well - it may make you feel calmer to realize that our brain structures are NOT broken. They are doing EXACTLY what they are supposed to do under the circumstances. And all of our perceptions of what we are seeing, feeling, hearing- are normal because the parts of our brains that are firing off are doing so because a) They still DO work. They work just as they were intended to. c) They are actually healing as all this firing is going on.

Why the depression and anxiety? It's so complicated, but this WHOLE system is interdependent. At that SAME time as ALL this stuff is going on, the entire body is trying to heal in every place GABA and Glutamate naturally act (uh - and that would be - EVERYWHERE).
The intestines, stomach, eye balls, skin, toenails - seriously - where do we NOT have nerves?
Anything we didn't have as a pre-existing condition is fair game for being affected by the recovery that takes place.
This includes the body's own ability to make serotonin that is required to feel "balanced" and "happy". And you guessed it. This is not being made very efficiently in a building that is under major construction. So - you may get a day or so of feeling good - and then - boom - that's gone until you can make enough serotonin.
Oh - and by the way - serotonin HELPS TELL THE NERVES WHEN TO RELEASE GABA AND GLUTAMATE! Ha!
So on top of needing GABA to make serotonin, you need serotonin to regulate the release of GABA into the system!
How much more interconnected can you get? God - it's a wonder it knows how to heal at all! But it does! Amazing to me, really.

This is just some limited information to give an idea of what is going on in neurophysiology. Obviously this is very cursory and not super detailed. But there is a bigger point here than "what parts of the brain are affected".
The point REALLY is - IF YOU KNOW that symptoms are tied to parts of a NORMAL brain under reconstruction, then you can begin to rest a little more easy in your mind that under the circumstances, the symptoms themselves are a GOOD sign.
Without intrusive memories - as awful as they are - especially when mixed with fear - but without them, your memory itself would not heal. It IS healing - and when you are having intrusives, try to think of it that way. Tap your finger to your temple and say to yourself, "I know what this is. This is my hippocampus healing! Ha!" Because it IS. And if it were NOT healing, you would not be having those symptoms. ANY part of the brain or body that needs to heal is going to "experience" something in the form of symptoms - and you are going to notice that. But it is part of process that is inevitably returning to the balance that it could not achieve while we were still putting those pills in our mouths. (And if you're tapering, this is still happening - just likely with less trauma than with what happened to me when I cold-turkeyed.)

So - when you have symptoms - know that symptoms themselves are a way for you to know that healing is taking place.

And finally - realize that the DRUG is GONE. This is withdrawal - yes - okay -we call it withdrawal - but it's really "recovery".
The benzos are gone. The "evil drug" is no longer there. The symptoms that are left are not the "enemy". That's our brains doing the EXACT right thing. What's happening to our brain at this point is not the "benzo beast"  It's OUR BRAIN recovering.
Not to degrade anyone who calls it the benzo beast  - I get that. But just so you know - you're not really fighting a beast.
You don't even need to fight it. Just wait it out. All that reconstruction is happening on your building.
And soon - the frame will be back standing, stronger than before. The furniture will be inside. The elevators will go all the way up to the top again.   And the people can come and go and work like a well-oiled machine.
Don't feel you need to fight the recontruction. It's just healing. And all that is happening to us is a sign of that.

Hope this helps somebody a little - or maybe a family member.

And if you ARE a family member, please realize that those of us in recovery are no more in control of how we feel or what we experience than people who have undergone brain trauma in a car accident. Please be patient with us, because our brains are healing and we are in the process of reconstruction - and our function is temporarily enabled, then disabled, then enabled, then disabled again. And that is totally normal and expected. We can no more help that than a person can "want" to wake up out of a coma. It happens when the brain is able - and not out of sheer will. But it does happen. So please stand by us and say loving things and reassure us every day. Notice our improvements and tell us what they are. Encourage us when we feel good. And when we don't, just hold us and hug us and tell us it will be okay. Anything you would say or do for a family member that had had a car accident and a brain injury - please do that for us. And be patient... we are getting there.

ADDENDUM

I got a great PM from a buddy asking "What about the physical symptoms of pain?" - and think it deserves some theoretical attention.

I want to take some time to add some theories about PAIN and physical symptoms such as burning, akathisia, and tingling, prickling, and things that happen during recovery of this nature.

I will also add this as an addendum to the original post on page 1.

First off, let it be said that I can only "theorize" as to this, - I am not a doctor. But I DO think logical theories are helpful because they give us a story and mindful logic to cope with in the MEANTIME as we are going through this.

So these are multiple sources of information that I'm tying together - some are from nerve regeneration, and some are from what we know about "how the brain works". And some or ALL of this is likely going on when it comes to pain and skin/muscle sensations:

First off - I think a good quote comes from a Plastic Surgery practice that has published things on "nerve regeneration after injury".

The quote follows:

"The usual events associated with normal nerve regeneration can be painful. As the regenerating ends of the nerve, called sprouts, travel, they make contact with each other and with structural proteins. The neural impulses generated by this activity may be interpreted by your brain as pain. It should be expected that for the time period associated with nerve regeneration there may be pain sufficient to need therapy and/or pain medication. Just understanding that this is expected to occur, and is "good pain'; or pain for a good reason, is enough to help many people adjust to its presence. This condition is not just one of pain, but is associated with over activity of the sympathetic nervous system, so that the area of pain is a different color, like pink or purple, and is usually a different temperature, like cooler, than the surrounding non-painful skin."  http://www.riversong...on_recovery.pdf

Well- this article isn't talking about "benzo - related nerve damage. It's talking about nerve damage caused by physical trauma of crushing, cutting, or compressing nerves. But what can we glean from it nonetheless?

We can assume that if the sympathetic nervous system is involved in the presence of pain related to healing nerves - AND IT IS- that it is also NORMAL for us to have pain as we are undergoing healing.

When I was in earliest recovery, I would often get out of the shower and have pink spots all over my feet and my abdomen. At first they were bright pink for about 2 months - and then they faded out and I don't have them anymore. I have no idea what they were - but they were NOT there 12 days prior to my rapid taper - and then they showed up. The spots weren't symmetrical - they followed no pattern, but they were alway in the same place on my skin. And only after getting out of the shower. It is easy to see how the nervous system could be involved in skin redness, irritation, and weird feelings associated with recovery.

Likewise, throughout recovery, I've had and continue to have cooling, burning, prickling and occasional stabbing sensations. I've had it feel like my skin was "wet" when there was no water on it. Again, though. This is all normal - and like the quote says above.."Just understanding that this is expected to occur, and is "good pain'; or pain for a good reason, is enough to help many people adjust to its presence." It doesn't make the pain FEEL any better in the moment, but it does help us not to become anxious about it. It's normal. And it's a sign of healing.

What about akathisia?
Well - from the reading, the exact cause of akathisia is not 100% conclusive, but it seems to be related to dopaminergic and/or noradrenergic activity in the brain (dopamine and norepinephrine or noradrenaline as it is also called). These are just neurotransmitters - and it doesn't look (to me) to be exactly conclusive WHY this happens - but akathisia can happen after the use of many psychoactive drugs- not just benzos - and likely because anything that alters brain chemistry can alter dopemine and norepinephrine. So - okay. That makes sense. We all took "brain altering" drugs - and now some of us have akathisia. Guess what? It seems pretty normal! It's not fun. But it's normal. And it can come and go and then go away eventually. For me, I didn't get akathisia at all until month 8. It was a surprise. It was intense and awful. But it passed in a few weeks. Since then, I have had it off and on - but not to that degree. And now - it's mostly just annoying. Something as simple as a good hard cry in the bathtub can COMPLETELY remove it at times. And other times, I just have to wait for a wave to pass. But all in all, from all this information - it's normal. And the fact that it's coming and going and I'm getting hit here and there - it's a sign that the wheels are turning up there in the noggin - and things are shifting and attempting to rebalance. So if we can keep that quote in mind - it's normal - and while the sensation itself is very uncomfortable - if not painful - it can be regarded as a "good pain" if we are able to recognize that our feeling it means we have a brain and nerves that are regaining their abilities to function.

Likewise, as a scab heals over a wound, the new skin formin underneath can become "itchy". Why does this occur? Why does a scab itch?

"The itch of a healing wound is caused by the growth of new cells underneath the old scab. New skin cells would be growing underneath, and as they form a new layer of skin, then the scab becomes more tightly stretched over this zone of activity. This can make it feel itchy. The itch sensation for burn survivors may be a tingling feeling caused by nerves re-growing, or from dry skin caused by the lack of natural oil production since oil glands may have been damaged or destroyed by the burn. As the nerves grow and start to receive and send messages, they may create that itchy feeling. The skin in this area will be a lot less thick than everywhere else, so these new nerve cells will be under a lot more pressure. Itching is a sign of healing." (Mayo Clinic)

As we can surmise, the umpteen bajillion sensation we have going on are not 100% conclusive in their origins....HOWEVER...
There IS a trend.

From what it seems like from all the reading...
NERVE REGENERATION CAN CAUSE UNPLEASANT SENSATIONS. As counterintuitive as it is, HEALING CAN FEEL LIKE HURT.
But it's NOT further hurt or damage. It's the REVERSAL of damage.

Um - yeah - okay. Great - but what do I DO about it.

Pretty much the things that I have discovered that help through this healing are to "CONFUSE" the nerves as much as possible, IF possible.
What? Confuse the nerves?

You know how you get a cut or an insect bite and you immediately press on it to make it feel less painful? What you are doing when you press or squeeze the area is "desensitizing' the entire skin region of the cut by applying pressure to ALL the nerves in the area. That way, the ONE sensation of pain from the cut isn't the only thing your brain is feeling. The pressure from pushing down on ALL the nerves in the area helps to send multiple sensation to the brain to "counteract" the pain sensation. And it works.
Similarly, other things can help "confuse" nerves:
-Heat
-Cold
-Deep Pressure
- Massage
-creams like "Icy Hot" with menthol

All of these things have helped me cope in recovery.

Let me take it one by one:

Heat: I took and STILL take hot baths almost every day. In the peak of akathisia, I lived in the tub.   As hot as I could stand it really helped me. All the heat was "overregistering" in my brain and I was unable to feel the akathisia as much when in the tub. It was confusing the nerve signal and it was temporary relief. I hated those days. But I got through them. Likewise, a heating pad for pain was my friend a lot of the time.

-Cold - I used a cold washcloth on burning skin - and on my face and hands - and kept dipping it in ice water and applying it. This is an easy one, but it helped. I had a wave with 3 days of "fireface" last month and all I could do was apply the washcloth, lay there and think about how "this is healing" and keep going. But the wave passed.

Deep Pressure I use a 15 pound weighted blanket to sleep. I have for YEARS. I ordered it online. It has many pockets with little plastic balls equally distributed to create a very heavy blanket that creates "deep pressure". This kind of pressure is calming for anyone's nervous system. Occupational Therapists use it for children with autism, but people with anxiety can benefit from sleeping with one. And in recovery, I was glad to have it. I used it often together with a heating pad. It took the edge off just long enough.

Massage This one CAN be helpful - but sometimes not. I used to ask my husband just to "press down" on my head or my legs. Just press there. Don't rub. My skin hurt too much to rub, but the deep pressure from pressing was helpful. Other times, the actual massage was a help for sore muscles. I was too agoraphobic to schedule a REAL massage. LOL. But just this help from my family was nice to have.

Creams You're going to laugh, but there was a day that I put Vick's VapoRub on my face because my face was so HOT! I figured if this is safe for my baby's skin, it's probably okay to try it on my face. It worked! Oh man - my face felt SO good all day. I used that for a few days until the wave passed. I have also tried "Icy Hot" on my back when it was sore. Things like this work on the same principal to "confuse the nerves". If your nerves are too busy feeling the heat/cool of menthol, they cannot simultaneously feel "pain". So for a short time, the pain is not "felt" even though the "soreness" is technically still there.

All of these are ways I have coped. I'm sure there are others you guys have used!!

The broad idea here is that
1) Healing is happening.
2) The sensations that feel like injury are NOT injury. They are the CORRECTION of nerve injury. They just "fire off" as they heal.
3) We can use some things to cope.
4) It's going away in time.

I know this is not a "fix" to the feelings. There is nothing anyone could say to me while I was IN pain that made the PAIN better. All I could do was cope and cry and try to get through it. But knowing it's normal and that I'm not getting worse; I'm getting better - is always something I benefit from knowing.

The last article is kinda the same info as this but written from a more technical standpoint. Since I am tech and medical backgrounded, it made perfect sense and it got me over the hump. I'll find it one of these days.....

April 13, 2016

I might be lucky and find someone reading them as I peruse the Online List, that's how I find all the good stuff.......

lol !! thats how i found good stuff too when i was at prior place.

I also have a copy of that 2000, CG statement above be interesting to hear from that person now.

April 13, 2016

He has an 'online presence' but I would be loathe to contact him. AFAIK he is still the holder of the AD facts website too although the whois info may be private. 2 ways to contact. I thought someone mentioned years ago (when his name was still on his story) that he had moved on in his life and preferred not to discuss it. In fact that might even be a statement somewhere in the thread in which should be his story (did you copy it over there for us nz11? I'm way too lazy....)

Perhaps Alto might reach out in a kind of 'official capacity' asking for an update to his story for her well esteemed site, on behalf of the members?

I, for one, would be interested to know if he as any lingering issues, deficits that might be a result of neurotransmitter perturbation, nervous system 'oddities' that have persisted (I am thinking of my own, one of which is some kind of mild temperature dysregulation), stuff like that. Although this information would be immensely helpful, it is only one person's story and if I have learned anything (especially after yesterday's postings) it is that we are all 'different' in both our reaction to the drugs and our recovery from their effects. Lots of lifestyle stuff gets thrown into the mix and there would not be a case of 'pure recovery' anywhere.

By the way, I think we are allowed to say paxilprogress. Be funny if my post came up in a search for the now defunct site and someone found themselves here, where all their buddies are.

Perusing the online list is my way of always wanting to look behind the curtain to see what's going on, how things are really done. Can't help it, it must have been learned in childhood. If you can get a picture of how the wind might want to blow you just might emerge unscathed from the wrath of the 'rents.

April 13, 2016

Ok, I cannot really find the article I am looking for but this is close (copied from here):

When you reduce or quit an antidepressant (or any psychiatric drug), you may experience withdrawal symptoms.

Withdrawal symptoms are due to an absence of a medication at a level to which your body has become accustomed. They are an adverse effect of psychiatric drug use. When the level of the drug is reduced, your body notices it and tries to compensate, creating withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawing faster will increase withdrawal symptoms.

Quitting "cold-turkey" increases the risk of intense and prolonged withdrawal symptoms. Many people find that alternating dosages triggers withdrawal symptoms. It is not a gradual enough transition for some nervous systems.

Why are withdrawal symptoms so varied?
Because psychiatric drugs affect your nervous system -- the "operating system" of your body -- withdrawal symptoms can show up almost anywhere. They can be problems in

- Perception (vision, smell, hearing, etc.)
- Cognition (confusion, inability to concentrate, disorientation, depersonalization, etc.)
- Unusual and powerful emotions (melancholia, weeping, fear, anxiety, "neuro-emotion", etc.)
- Physical pain (headache, migraine, tingling, muscle aches, skin burning, etc.)
- Digestive issues (diarrhea, gastroparesis, etc.)
- Sleep issues (most commonly insomnia and poor sleep)
- "Brain zaps" (a sensation of tiny, sharp electrical surges in the brain)
- Hypersensitivity to medications, supplements, or foods

and others (more information about symptoms).

How do I know it's withdrawal and not relapse?
Typically, in withdrawal symptoms such as melancholia, anxiety, and disorientation come in intense waves, which differentiates them from relapse of a psychological condition.

In withdrawal, symptoms are much more intense than the original psychological condition. People suffering from withdrawal often say things like

- "This doesn't feel like my depression."
- "I've never had symptoms like this before."
- "I feel very weird and not like myself."

It's up to the individual to decide whether your body and brain are behaving "normally" as they did before you tried medication, or if you are feeling differently.

Why do you suggest tapering so slowly?
Withdrawal symptoms can be distressing, debilitating, and even disabling. While medicine insists that withdrawal symptoms last only a few weeks, some people experience them for much, much longer -- months and even years.

You cannot know in advance if you will suffer severe withdrawal from psychiatric medications. Very gradual reduction is the only way to limit the risk and severity of withdrawal symptoms. To be safe, we advocate a gradual taper with an initial reduction of 10% of dosage, for 3-4 weeks.

The theory behind tapering is that it allows your body and nervous system to gradually adapt to the absence of the medication. (More information about tapering here.)

Stages of withdrawal syndrome
ACUTE WITHDRAWAL
- Symptoms may appear when you reduce the dosage of a medication. If they are severe and do not fade in a few days, they are a sign your reduction in medication was too sudden. You might increase dosage slightly and reduce by a smaller amount next time.

- Symptoms may appear after you stop a medication. Because your body may not at first recognize the decrease of the drug, you may not feel withdrawal symptoms for a few weeks or even months. Reinstating the medication (at a reduced dosage) fairly soon after quitting can reduce or eliminate withdrawal symptoms. You can then taper more slowly from that level of medication.

The window when reinstatement may work for reducing withdrawal symptoms varies from individual to individual, but does not seem to be longer than a few months. After that, reinstatement either does not help or makes symptoms worse.

POST-ACUTE WITHDRAWAL
- Symptoms may last for weeks, months, or years after you stop. Probably for the majority of people, withdrawal symptoms resolve in a few weeks or months. Others can suffer for years from prolonged withdrawal syndrome.

In prolonged withdrawal syndrome, symptoms come in waves with windows of feeling more normal. Gradually, windows increase in frequency and length. Recovery varies from individual to individual and can take months or years.

Generally, prolonged withdrawal syndrome is not recognized by medicine. You will find very few doctors to diagnose it and still fewer to treat it.

End of quote.

It is entirely possible that the article doesn't exist but I remember it was written by Altostrata and posted elsewhere on the web. It's probably here but I am tired of searching for it. And it's also possible that all of the reading I did on the topic informed my understanding of what was going on. I am speaking primarily to the myriad odd, frightening and uncomfortable symptoms I experienced (and still do to this day but mildly) and once I got the message that what was happening was my body's clumsy (but wise) attempts to 'right' my system in the absence of those drugs, I was able to at least settle down and bear them as best I could.

If one can understand that it is a bit like trying to rebuild the engine in your car WHILE you are driving it (and need to drive it) then you can see how rough a ride it is and where all these weird symptoms are coming from. I feel it is too bad that what used to be an excellent resource available nowhere else on the web (the Symptoms and Self Care forum) has become a dumping ground (a place to rant in Alto's own words) for comments about the same symptoms over and over again as each member encounters them, thinking they are unique. They aren't. Since site search does not work very well, no one knows the gems of wisdom there and attempts to keep it organized lead to mod burnout. As the body adjusts one thing another thing is thrown out of whack and so on down the line. But its all according to some secret hidden plan and in the end we ALL emerge with a new functionality, some more functional than others to be sure and some taking longer than others too. There's a stark difference between withdrawal syndrome symptoms and true illness but people are so spooked they panic instead of waiting it out. We aren't medical docs here, we just people and what do we know about what's really going on with you? If that forum was a more organized resource one could look up their symptom and go "hey, I think I might have the same thing as so and so and they survived, so it's cool".

It's a process and while it is occurring the results of your lifestyle choices are also being felt and the plain and simple fact of aging too. Once you realize this is all going on you can stop fiddling with this and that supplement (and for goodness sake GET OVER the notion that there is a DRUG that will fix you for thataway lies peril) and just support your delicate system as best you can.

If anyone has read my long thread you may remember that there came a day when I knew I was going to recover. It came as a thought in my mind, not really one of 'my' thoughts and it happened in the shower. For I realized that for the first time in a couple of years that I actually felt good in there, the water felt nice and there was no sense of doom being in there. That was the turning point. But to get there, my body had been busy REMODELING itself and it was the first inkling that things had reached a point where they were now becoming VISIBLE.

Believe me, this was not the end. There were some very rough times ahead, I spoke about the depths of my depression and the constant suicidal feelings. And it may still not be the end but I'm over the hump I think. I am not quite ready to write a recovery story but this is the prelude to it, such as it is.

April 13, 2016

Another thing that is key to surviving this process, whether you are coming off drugs on purpose and tapering or whether you found yourself out in the street without a paddle (as I did, I did not mean to come off them) is that you have to be in charge of your psychological states and take whatever steps you need to to manage your feelings - be they low down and 'depressed' or high in the sky manic and everything in between. Like they say about the weather in some parts of the country, if you don't like it just wait a moment, something else is coming along soon. The same is true of your emotions. It is true that most of them will be very unsettling, even horrifying, but if you hang in there they will begin to 'normalize'. Your feelings are your responsibility. Medicine got you in this predicament and they know of no way to get you out. You have to go it alone, on your own.

Someone was reading a topic where Alto stated it very well, if I come across it I will post it here.

April 14, 2016

Hi CW i had a look through all the paxilprogress (is it ok to say that word?) success stories ..i printed them off and spiral bound them before the ship went down but i couldnt see it there. I could have missed it though.

However you are right in that it is sitting in antidepressant facts.

Here it is

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2000-05-06-prozac-experience.htm

(i couldnt remember where i put this so i have printed it out and now added to my folder.)

" The internet is becoming a wasteland because of 'link rot'. lol great phrase!

Been reading Baylissa (Recovery and renewal ) she has done a great job on her book but seems to be locked in on a 6-18 month recovery timeframe and anything outside this is a rarity....doesnt say were she gets this from but i reckon she may have used the antidepressantfacts site which says 3-18 months....or she may be using benzo recovery timeframes from ashton manual? havent read that myself so just guessing.

April 14, 2016

Lol, I did not invent the term 'link rot' but it sure is descriptive of the problem!

Thanks for finding the correct link, if you don't have access to any of the keywords in CG's account you cannot search for it. If you compare yours to the link from the Wayback Machine, all the personal identifiers (name) have been removed. I never went back and looked.

I wonder if I can get a mod to switch links for me. The one I posted contains the name as it appeared originally. I'll ask later once I get off this danged tablet.

Maybe 18 mos. for benzos (I think Matt Samet would beg to differ) but not for recovery from APs and SSRIs/SNRIs. That takes YEARS, though not all are rough going. (Alto is a case in point.) But it's a person's own judgement when they want to stick a fork in it and call it done. You can see where some recovery stories get posted right after the last pill is eaten and we all know it does not work that way.

I am not quite done yet.

April 25, 2016

I have been leading up to posting suggestions about how to recover from these dreadful drugs based on my cold turkey experience and what I have read about on this board going on 4 years now. There have been a few posters of late who have gotten into trouble as a result of I am not sure what because the information is here, they just have gone off on their own for some reason. I have decided to say it here in my thread for if I were to write it in the affected person's threads I am sure it will come off as scolding and they feel bad enough as it is (and oh how I do know what protracted withdrawal syndrome feels like!) and they will likely not be able to understand anyway.

The reason you want to follow a careful slow taper is so you do not trigger withdrawal syndrome and it manifests itself in many ways leading up to full blown misery but many people are quick to attribute the symptoms to something else and by the time they get here they are in deep trouble. And it can be delayed too: mine did not start (the awful protracted part) until I had been drug free FOR A WHOLE YEAR. But had I been more aware I could have seen the signs. (I made it worse by taking a drug called atarax because the doc told me to. You won't likely put 2 and 2 together and realize wd is happening because of this delay). I will put the reason you don't want this to happen in all caps even though many people will read it and immediately say "well, not me, I can get through this and she does not know what she is talking about". Ok fine, do it your way but I will tell you right off and not mince words: wd syndrome can get SO bad you will want to kill yourself because you cannot escape it and many people have done just that so that should be enough of a warning which many of you will not heed. Already there are at least 6 people who had been posting here who this has happened to and countless stories in the media about different celebrities.

THERE IS NO DRUG OR SUPPLEMENT OR CURE FOR WITHDRAWAL SYNDROME. NONE. AT ALL. AND THERE NEVER WILL BE.

No matter how much research you do and how many questions you ask in the symptoms forum, those of us who know will tell you that anything you take is likely to have a paradoxical reaction and you are better off not doing it.

Your nervous system has to right itself and it cannot do so if you keep adding stuff that it has to adjust to while it is in a major uproar and it just can't do it. And it takes a LONG time for it to settle down. We are talking months, even years and you just extend the time and symptoms by adding more drugs and supplements. The only ones that seem to do no harm are magnesium and fish oil, but not everyone can even tolerate these.

We've got all the information and scientific rationale for tapering off these drug so slowly that your body most of the time does not have a chance to overreact but many of you cannot find this information or cannot process it. (We have several successful cases of this very thing being done. You don't need to have more than this to believe it can be done). The mods keep telling you and you don't get it so it is not because we don't try. But all of this is up to you, the medical establishment cannot help and until you get this, this unwavering trust in doctors and psychiatric medicine, you won't succeed in getting off the drugs safely.

Then comes the fun part: you need to be able to manage your emotions yourself for you will finally come to realize there is not a pill in the world that can fix that part of you. If you cannot do this then no matter what the potential side effects of long term use of psych meds are, you better stay on them because that's all you've got. WE CANNOT HELP YOU, SO DON'T EXPECT US TO. Stay on the drugs and try to treat yourself well. This journey is not for everyone.

This is a self help board so start reading. Don't think my story applies to you? Then read someone elses, the infinite variation of the human experience is all here in this tiny microcosm, all here for you to learn from.

That last bit IS scolding, kinda hard to not to when you have read as much here as I have.

But feel free to blaze your own path, take more drugs, and even the new ones too. See how messed up you can really get. I am anti drug, the drug companies are after profits, not better living through chemistry. That's my stance and I am proud of it. I got fooled now I am much wiser.

April 27, 2016

Petunia and I found this site and started posting within days of each other. At that time I had been cold turkey off my medication coctail for about 6 months (I came off Oct 2012).

In her initial post she listed her symptoms and asked if they could be symptoms of withdrawal syndrome and I'm going to it them here because they ARE and I experienced them (and others) too:

Waking at 5am with racing thoughts

Feeling like I haven’t slept at all

Nausea, shaking, dizziness, body pressure, muscle twitches

Waves of negative emotion

Hot/cold flashes, sweating

Constant ringing in my ears

Sensitive to sound, light and smells

Can’t watch TV or listen to the radio because its too stimulating

Most things are too stimulating now, including being around other people too long

Loss of appetite and loss of weight

Hair falling out

Agoraphobia, mostly during the day, I’m able to go out easier late afternoon towards evening

Memory problems and mental confusion

Loss of confidence.

Loss of interest in doing anything or going anywhere

Can’t get any pleasure out of things any more

Loss of hope

If you read through the symptoms forum (if you can find them) they are covered and covered well, they are a kind of hallmark of this situation. Sure, they can be attributed to other things but taken as a whole they point directly to the peculiar perturbations that happen as a result of being on psychotropic drugs and then coming off them too quickly.

Unfortunately, the list does not even begin to describe what it's like living through them. Trust me, if you are feeling any of these things and you have just recently stopped your medications, you need to try to reinstate a small amount of your drug/drugs and taper slowly and safely off them.

Don't think you can just live through them, that you can handle it, this is not so bad. You have no idea how bad it can really get.

Have I scared you enough yet? No? Well, keep reading.......

April 30, 2016

I was reading your thread long enough today to see you were a fan of antidepressantfacts... some posts he made to another site I think..

http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?3,676342,676397

April 30, 2016

Ah B, I think you got something a little mixed up somewhere. The site "antidepressantSfacts.com" is the site where CG's story is found and is in fact HIS site (see ICANN WHOIS for more info). The post on Hancock's site you linked to was made by someone with the handle 'Raja' and without any research I have no idea who exactly that is. He is extensively quoting from CG's site though.

You have to be careful with attributions, especially with old content.

After years of struggling with this condition, I can say I have read a lot.

May 3, 2016

I'll explain why later but for now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34i1ToYOhEY

(not sure but I think this guy nailed it, many moons ago. The author, of course. Not everyone will like the narrator, however.)

http://www.youtube-mp3.org/ this is great!

Nadia nailed it! http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10596-nadia-5-years-off-i-survived-antidepressants/#entry223593

☼ Cymbaltawithdrawal5600: Introduction

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