Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

[Altostrata]

Interesting article.

 

It always annoys me when women's increased sleep problems are laid to "stress." Women still do a lot of chores and tend children more than men. They have more stress because they work longer hours and have to "be there" emotionally for their families as well.

[uncomfortablynumb]

Hi everyone, I know everyone is different but I would like to know how long it took to experience some normalcy of sleep. Especially interested in knowing the experience of people who have had difficulty with sleep onset.

Edited August 29, 2016 by KarenB
merged topics

[coldturkmama]

Took me a few months in the first of it. Woke. Had a few waves of insomnia too, once for two weeks at 25 months off a c/t.

[Altostrata]

Reminder to everyone with sleep problems:

 

Very important!!!!

 

- Get off the computer, tablet, or smartphone early in the evening. This is not a joke. The light from these devices will keep you awake, or cause you to sleep so lightly, you wake up in the middle of the night.

 

If you have a bad habit of Web surfing at night and not sleeping until the early hours, you have reset your sleep cycle with the light from your electronic devices and set yourself up for poor sleep.

 

- Turn the lights down or off in the early evening. The darker it is, the more your natural sleep hormone, melatonin, is stimulated.

 

- During the day, get outside for at least 10 minutes to get some natural light. The natural light sensed by your eyes helps set your biorhythm and sleep cycle.

 

- If you can, get at least 30 minutes gentle exercise, such as walking, each day, before the early evening. This causes your nervous system to record physical activity, which will help trigger your sleep cycle at night.

[Sarabera]

So true, a few other things you can do to help melatonin release normalize--download f.lux for your computer, tones it down a lot in the evening. Get some blue-blocker goggles and wear them in the evening for an hour or so before bedtime. Replace the light bulb in your bedroom with a blue-blocker bulb (easy to find online) for middle of the night reading. I like one that is quite dark.

 

There are certain activities on line, such as video gaming or streaming porn, that will totally rev up your nervous system and throw the circadian rhythm completely out of whack. Not a good thing to do if you are experiencing insomnia. Reading a real book (not kindle), or watching TV with blue-blocker goggles, or knitting, are activities that are much more likely to allow your body to get back to sleep.

[uncomfortablynumb]

Is it normal to feel totally exhausted but not have the sensation of feeling sleepy or drifting off to sleep? Does this come back? Some doctors are telling me this is part of depression and anxiety. I have never had sleep issues in the past before meds or on meds. This was never an issue when I had bouts of depression or anxiety. I would sleep more than usual. The deprivation is torture. I have promised myself not to rely on meds for sleep. How long can I expect to suffer before experiencing some improvement? Have my fast tapering and trials over the years set me up for disaster?

[Christian]

Hi there. I thought I read your sleep improved ?

[uncomfortablynumb]

Sadly, that was very short-lived. Had only a couple of nights of a bit of relief.

[Christian]

I bought this product from GNC called Natra Sleep. It has Passion flower, valerian root and chamomile in it. It did make me tired when I took it with a Melatonin after an Epsom salt bath. I also had chamomile tea just prior. I could tell I was tired. If I wasn't in the early stages of WD I bet it could have put me to sleep for the night as I was tired. One day soon when I'm done tapering Ambien That will be my combination I'll use.

[uncomfortablynumb]

Is there some sort of timeline when withdrawal insomnia starts to ease? I know everyone is different and have different drug use histories, but personal experiences and averages might be helpful.

[Christian]

I'm interested in that too. But I'm sure I'm not going to like what the responses are going to be

[InvisibleUnless]

for me, personally:

 

~3 months until i was not sleeping only every other night

~6 months until i was not sleeping mostly in 1 hour portions

~2 years until i was not sleeping mostly in 2-3 hour portions

~3 years until i was not sleeping in mostly 4-6 hour portions

~4 years until i was sleeping almost every day and for around 6+ hours each time

 

i still have a rotating circadian rhythm, so my sleep is not limited to day or to night and tends to roll back hour by hour across days and weeks.  some months, i have a renewed difficulty in getting proper lengths of sleep.  i still cannot just lay down and sleep---various criteria have to be met, and it can become quite inconvenient and delay sleep for hours or even half a day.

 

i attribute the worst of things (in sleep, but also many other areas) to the antipsychotics, and i was on antipsychotics for 7 years in addition to all the antidepressants and other muck.  as i tapered off the last 5 or so drugs one at a time, the incidence of withdrawal was kind of staggered.  in order of first completed discontinuation, my final tapering schedule was: cymbalta, remeron, risperdal, buspar, topamax.  i should not have stayed on the topamax for so long, but did not know any better and all the doctors were against my discontinuation.  i went 3-5 months between zeroing the doses of each medication, with the next taper beginning after the last one was ending.  i dont remember if i had stabilization months or what my exact dose reductions were, but i tapered according to my longtime psychiatrists plan.

[compsports]

I haven't tried this as the link on the introductory email didn't work, but the Paleo Mom is launching an ebook and program on sleep. I'm sure it won't touch on withdrawal insomnia, but it should have a lot of info on cortisol-related sleep problems as she is going through that herself. If you sign up for her newsletter I'm sure you'll get the ads...thepaleomom.com

Sorry, I am just now seeing this post.   I found this article interesting.

 

http://www.thepaleomom.com/2015/08/the-new-science-of-sleep-wake-cycles.html

 

""The authors didn’t answer my follow-up question when I read this, but given the symptoms of excessive dietary sodium and the symptoms of potassium deficiency, I’m thinking that getting a good balances of these two essential minerals in the diet is probably a necessary for our brain’s ability to regulate our sleep-wake cycles.  I have to admit that since I read this paper, I’ve been eating more bananas for their potassium content (bonus: they’re also high in magnesium and tryptophan which can also help sleep!) and I’ve actually noticed a measurable improvement in my sleep quality!""

 

Interestingly, last week, when I took an exhausting day trip to consult with an ENT/Sleep surgeon out of my area, I got more potassium than usual.   Blood pressure was normal at the doc's office even though I was very stressed out due to an idiotic cab driver.

 

When I got home, even though I had another narcoleptic sleep attack, when I got back to sleep, the quality was so good that I was pissed off the next day that I had a dentist appointment.  I wanted to be getting tasks done that I had the energy for.

 

It looks like I need to pay attention to this since my sleep hasn't been good since last week.  Of course, it could be due to a million other things but obviously focusing in increasing the potassium doesn't hurt.

[compsports]

for me, personally:

 

~3 months until i was not sleeping only every other night

~6 months until i was not sleeping mostly in 1 hour portions

~2 years until i was not sleeping mostly in 2-3 hour portions

~3 years until i was not sleeping in mostly 4-6 hour portions

~4 years until i was sleeping almost every day and for around 6+ hours each time

 

i still have a rotating circadian rhythm, so my sleep is not limited to day or to night and tends to roll back hour by hour across days and weeks.  some months, i have a renewed difficulty in getting proper lengths of sleep.  i still cannot just lay down and sleep---various criteria have to be met, and it can become quite inconvenient and delay sleep for hours or even half a day.

 

i attribute the worst of things (in sleep, but also many other areas) to the antipsychotics, and i was on antipsychotics for 7 years in addition to all the antidepressants and other muck.  as i tapered off the last 5 or so drugs one at a time, the incidence of withdrawal was kind of staggered.  in order of first completed discontinuation, my final tapering schedule was: cymbalta, remeron, risperdal, buspar, topamax.  i should not have stayed on the topamax for so long, but did not know any better and all the doctors were against my discontinuation.  i went 3-5 months between zeroing the doses of each medication, with the next taper beginning after the last one was ending.  i dont remember if i had stabilization months or what my exact dose reductions were, but i tapered according to my longtime psychiatrists plan.

IU,

 

It never ceases to amaze me how these drugs destroy sleep cycles in different ways.   I wish you all the luck in the world in resolving your issues.

[uncomfortablynumb]

What if the problem is falling asleep? I tried many natural products and follow good sleep hygiene to no avail. I am trying my hardest to avoid meds for sleep aids. Is it just a matter of time I have to wait? I am barely functioning and my body aches badly.

[Dan998]

Sleep seems to be such an important factor to getting through this ordeal. There appears to be a link between sleep and withdrawal symptoms. If you search online for ‘sleep deprivation’ you will notice that the symptoms are very similar. I’m not sure which causes which. Perhaps it’s a chicken and egg situation. Is insomnia just another withdrawal symptom? Or, is sleep deprivation the key that unlocks the door to hell and releases all the other withdrawal demons? I have no idea, and probably neither does anyone else.

 

What I do know is that if I can string together a few nights of decent sleep I feel so much more functional, less anxious and more energetic. And, on the flipside, if I have a few nights of poor sleep, things will turn very bad very quickly. In fact, during every one of my failed CT attempts it was the acute insomnia and the accompanying deterioration of my mind and body that finally forced me to reinstate. 

 

It does seem very common for us SSRI refugees to suffer from insomnia. Virtually all of us have had difficulty getting to or staying asleep. I would be interested to know others experiences with sleep and their symptoms, especially how it affects windows and waves. Do you sleep more during windows? Do you sleep less during waves? 

 

[legan]

I heared about songha night product .its herbal and It sholud help with sleep . Any body tried it ?

 

My problrm is not falling sleep . I sleep 12 hours every day . But i wake up exhausted . Anxious . Im having the vivid dreams all the night . Its like im not sleeping . I feel im aware when im i sleeping .and it seems i didnt get any deep sleep since i quit. I never woke up refreshed . Except when i have a nap or nightmare .

 

These drugs destroyed every thing .

 

I woke up refreshed if i have a night mare . Is nt strange ?

[Irvingkirsch]

Here is my theory! I believe sleep to be soo important for our health, I remember until recently I always slept at least 8 hours and sometimes 10 hours! I believe we must get our sleep back to normal! From reading on this forum even amongest the people who have been off of prozac for more then 5 years some of them are only getting 5 or 6 hrs of sleep! and the quality is still questionable! I find that completely unacceptible! I hypothesis that overtime not getting enough sleep is more damaging then being on an anti-depressent. So here is what I propose! 1) perhaps for long-term anti depressent users like myself and many other on this forum (10 years or more) we might have to accept the fact that our brain have been permanently damaged by prozac. and that the neuro transmitters are so unbalanced the only way we can balance it is to go back on a low dose of anti-depressent. 2) the reason for a low dose is two fold, number one minimum side effect, and number 2 to promote sleep. 3) number three i believe it is possible for us long term users to stay at that low dose and be happy, because we have developed so many skills overtime to deal with depression and that we don't need the higher doses to feel the same! 4) I also recommend supplementing with 5 htp if you are using ssri, or tyrosine if you are using wellbutrin type drugs! This is my proposal! For me i have two goals right now, to get back my libido and for my body to function normally, and right now I am not using any anti-depresent, but if i can't get my sleep back to normal, I am seriously considering the above opinions, because I believe overtime sleep is more important! Also not getting enough sleep decreases testosterone overtime!

 

Hi, I know this post is old and I don't know if you still post here, but you have the exact same theory I do and the exact same problem it seens. I have been on AD's for 23 years and about 7 years ago I developed insomnia that has persisted until this day and has ruined my life. There were no medication changes 7 years ago. I had been drinking heavily prior to this point in time 7 years ago and really haven't gone more than a few months without a drink since. Did you ever have a drinking problem? Is it possible that maybe we just need a break from drinking for a couple years and in fact it's alcohol that damaged our brains and not AD's. I read a reputable study that showed that former alcoholics who develop sleep problems do not show improvement in sleep problems until they have remained sober for 1 to 3 years

[Christian]

Are you suggesting once someone who drinks a lot quits he can come down with insomnia shortly after ?

[Irvingkirsch]

Are you suggesting once someone who drinks a lot quits he can come down with insomnia shortly after ?

 

 

Yeah, there are large studies that have followed people that were alcoholics and at some point many of these people develop insomnia because the repeated alcohol abuse screws up their ability to sleep properly. 

[uncomfortablynumb]

I finally got maybe 2 or 3 hours of sleep last night without meds! This is not much to celebrate but it is a lot better than zero or 1 hour. I took an Epsom salt bath at 11p and took the following supplements - whey protein shake, AOR ortho-sleep, 200mg mag glycinate, 500mg taurine, a multivitamin, and Advil pm.

[Christian]

Nice work. Just curious do you take the multi vitamin before bed. If it has the B vitamins in there it could be keeping you up. I recently stopped my morning dose of the multi vitamin as a result of being more stimulating

[uncomfortablynumb]

I no longer take a high potency MV. I usually take it in the morning. I switched things up and I got sleep. So, I dunno. Weird. It has very low b vitamins. I can only hope that I can string a few days where I get at least 2 hours sleep. That would be nice progress.

[Xavier]

After years of struggle between 5 and 6h30 sleep night, now I manage to sleep up to 8-9 hours per night though the sleep has very poor quality. But if I try to work out, I'm always punished : the insomnia comes back even if exercising in the morning. Did you experience the same issue ?

[uncomfortablynumb]

I have gone another 5 straight nights with no sleep. When does the body's protective mechanism kick in? Has anyone else had this feeling like being constantly wired without an off switch? I am dying to feel the natural tired feeling. Are there any folks out there who have experienced such extreme insomnia? And ppl with similar drug use history?

[Christian]

I was wired all day. For the last week it's only at bed time I'm wired and the rest of the day I'm fatigued. I've had insomnia for two months. I know yours is longer and I'm sorry. Let me ask you. Does insomnia effect your concentration ? I'm trying to determine if that's related to the lack of sleep or another part of WD.

[uncomfortablynumb]

Hi Christian,

How bad is your insomnia? Lack of sleep definitely makes concentration more difficult. Whenever I am lucky enough to get any sleep I can think and function a lot better. Have you come across any members who have cold turkied or fast tapered and recovered from severe insomnia?

[Christian]

It's bad. 3-4 hours but with sleep meds. And that's a worse sleep I'm sure

[Christian]

Most people didn't make that mistake like us. Try Coldturkeymomma? I know I've come across members that quit CT and are doing better now. Within a year too. When did you quit? Do you have other symptoms ?

[JanCarol]

My new favorite sleep aid, Max Richter's "Sleep":  

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/features/max-richters-sleep-the-longest-continuous-piece-of-music-broadcast-by-the-bbc-10502454.html

 

8 hours of beautiful, droning, classical music, designed for sleep.

 

I don't know how much research he did into time in theta, delta, REM, but every time I hear it, it is so pleasurable, sweet, drowsy, like a musical massage to put me to sleep.

 

The CD's for the complete series (I recommend this) are expensive - but - I'll bet you've spent more on supplements!

 

I was lucky enough to catch the BBC broadcast on the AussieBC, and just happening to have a home studio, managed to catch most of it.   (ssssh!)  When I hear it, I remember staying up all night one night (naughty) to get as much of it without interruption as possible, and the beauty of this music unfolding.

 

Right now, it is the only "sleepy" music I want.  (sorry Enya)

[Christian]

Hi Christian, How bad is your insomnia? Lack of sleep definitely makes concentration more difficult. Whenever I am lucky enough to get any sleep I can think and function a lot better. Have you come across any members who have cold turkied or fast tapered and recovered from severe insomnia?

[Christian]

And to answer your question again yes. There are stories all over the site. Insomnia going away as early as 3 months. Sometimes it lingers for a year. I've communicated with them. They probably haven't seen this post as they are catching up on z's. The stories we read on the site are the ones who are really struggling. Like we are right now. The ones that improve in a shorter amount of time don't come to the site as much. That's my opinion.

[uncomfortablynumb]

Hi Christian,

 

3-4 hours is also what I was getting when I tried sleep aids like zopiclone.  My once a week Ativan gives me like 6-7 but I have to take a very high dose (2mg).  And the sleeps are not refreshing, it is like coming out of general anesthesia or a concussion.  

 

I quit the Effexor back in April 2015.  In July, I had depression and anxiety come roaring back.  Weird I didn't have the insomnia, dizziness, and light and sound sensitivity then. I have come off meds a few others times without the severe withdrawal either.  I went back on Effexor for a couple months in August/September and it didn't help, so I got off again in October.   That is when all the withdrawal-like symptoms quickly started.   So, I have been experiencing all this crap 4 or 5 months.   

 

Although the insomnia is the worst symptom,  I have a laundry list of other problems - loss of motivation, fatigue, difficulty with concentration, trouble thinking and conversing, little to no joy/pleasure in my usual activities, social anxiety, dizziness (this symptom that isn't quite as bad as it was). brain zaps (not as intense and frequent), sound sensitivity, visual sensitivity and dream-like vision.

 

I went a whole week with no sleep last week.  And my Ativan didn't work for the first time.  I was at the end of my rope, so my doctor got me to try Remeron again.  I feel defeated and feel like it is a step back but it is helping me get sleep.  The plan is to stabilize on a low dose of this and VERY slowly wean off. I wish I knew about withdrawal years ago.    

 

There are members on here who have had pretty awful insomnia for years.  I can't imagine having to wait a couple years only to get 3-4 hours sleep.  

[uncomfortablynumb]

I have read that magnolia bark and the other herb in relora can be effective for sleep onset and sleep maintenance. Anyone try it?

Edited March 13, 2016 by KarenB
merged similar topics

[Petunia]

Yes, I tried it during my earlier withdrawal days, when I was much worse than I am now. I was looking back through my thread, trying to find where I wrote about it, but it may have been before I found this site, this was all I could find by using Google, but I can't find where I wrote it... "The last two things I tried Relora and Seriphos, certainly had effects, the Relora put me into a kind of drugged, depressed sleep and the Seriphos did something, but it went paradoxical very fast. "

 

From my fuzzy memory, I know it had an effect on me, but I think I was trying it to combat my awful morning cortisol effect, not so much to help with sleep at night. I vaguely remember that I took it in the morning and found myself laying on the couch all day, unable to move feeling very fatigued and depressed, which was the opposite of what I wanted to be feeling during the day.

 

It might be more helpful at night, you could try it, maybe start with a small dose to see how it will effect you. All vitamins, herbs and supplements can cause paradoxical effects in a nervous system sensitized by withdrawal.

 

If you do try it, please report back here with your results.

[KarenB]

merged similar topics