Throw away the antidepressants, urges leading scientist

[Konjo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11600868/Throw-away-the-antidepressants-urges-leading-scientist.html

[Addax]

Another article on the same topic.

 

http://cepuk.org/2015/05/13/bmj-article-long-term-use-psychiatric-drugs-harmful/

 

And here is the BMJ Article: Does long term use of psychiatric drugs cause more harm than good? http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2435

[mammaP]

Thanks for posting it Addax, I read that report earlier in the BMJ and came to post the link but you got here before me It is great that it's been covered in the BMJ but I am concerned that they are saying people can just stop the drugs and come to no harm! They should come here and see the harm stopping them does. I hope people don't read it and stop them. I hope doctors take it on board and stop touting the chemical imbalance rubbish! 

[Altostrata]

Very interesting, thanks Konjo and Addax.

 

When starting a topic about an article, posting a couple of paragraphs from it is better at stimulating discussion.

[btdt]

Another article on the same topic.

 

http://cepuk.org/2015/05/13/bmj-article-long-term-use-psychiatric-drugs-harmful/

 

And here is the BMJ Article: Does long term use of psychiatric drugs cause more harm than good? http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2435

http://cepuk.org/2015/05/13/bmj-article-long-term-use-psychiatric-drugs-harmful/

"Benefits have been overemphasised and harms understated, he says, because randomised controlled trials have been biased, not blinded appropriately, have not fully evaluated the effects of these drugs and deaths have gone under reported.

For example, the majority of studies have included patients already using a psychiatric drug and such patients may undergo abstinence and suffer from withdrawal symptoms. As a result, this study design exaggerates benefits and increases harms, and has even driven some patients to suicide, he explains.

Industry funded trials have under reported deaths, he adds, estimating that there have probably been 15 times more suicides among people taking antidepressants than reported by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."

The most reported drug in the history of the FDA was PROZAC!  More adverse reaction than any other drug in the history of the FDA look it up I already have. Are the tides turning or is this just a tease...another tease they come along every now and then but nothing changes... what will it take to make a change?

[btdt]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11600868/Throw-away-the-antidepressants-urges-leading-scientist.html

""This would lead to healthier and more long lived populations. Because psychotropic drugs are immensely harmful when used long-term, they should almost exclusively be used in acute situations and always with a firm plan for tapering off, which can be difficult for many patients."

He also suggested widespread withdrawal clinics were needed to help those who have become dependent on such medication.

Opposing Prof Gotzsche's argument, Allan Young - professor of mood disorders at King's College London - and psychiatric patient John Crace said psychiatric drugs were as beneficial as other treatments used for common, complex medical conditions."

He said the "W" word.....and clinics to go with the W word

" withdrawal clinics" 

Tapering ... did I see this or am I dreaming... I have better go to bed now and see if this is till here in the morning... 

peace

[nz11]

Wow i came to post this too and you guys bet me to it.

 

Taken from the bmj link

 

Bold emphasis mine. [insert mine]

 

Gotzche says :

 

"Given their lack of benefit, I estimate we could stop almost all psychotropic drugs without causing harm—by dropping all antidepressants, ADHD drugs, and dementia drugs (as the small effects are probably the result of unblinding bias) and using only a fraction of the antipsychotics and benzodiazepines we currently use. This would lead to healthier and more long lived populations. Because psychotropic drugs are immensely harmful when used long term, they should almost exclusively be used in acute situations and always with a firm plan for tapering off, which can be difficult for many patients.

We need new guidelines to reflect this. We also need widespread withdrawal clinics because many patients have become dependent on psychiatric drugs, including antidepressants, and need help so that they can stop taking them slowly and safely.

............................../..................

I was a bit surprised at the first sentence by Gotzche but what i think he is meaning is that we could stop all new prescriptions of this stuff and taper existing people.

 

.............................................

 

Gotxzche opens the debate with :

Psychiatric drugs are responsible for the deaths of more than half a million people aged 65 and older each year in the Western world, as I show below. Their benefits would need to be colossal to justify this, but they are minimal.

 

Overstated benefits and understated deaths

The randomised trials that have been conducted do not properly evaluate the drugs’ effects. Almost all of them are biased because they included patients already taking another psychiatric drug. Patients, who after a short wash-out period are randomised to placebo, go “cold turkey” and often experience withdrawal symptoms. This design exaggerates the benefits of treatment and increases the harms in the placebo group, and it has driven patients taking placebo to suicide in trials in schizophrenia.

Under-reporting of deaths in industry funded trials is another major flaw.

Based on some of the randomised trials that were included in a meta-analysis of 100 000 patients by the US Food and Drug Administration, I have estimated that there are likely to have been 15 times more suicides among people taking antidepressants than reported by the FDA—for example, there were 14 suicides in 9956 patients in trials with fluoxetine and paroxetine, whereas the FDA had only five suicides in 52 960 patients, partly because the FDA only included events up to 24 hours after patients stopped taking the drug. [This is a disgrace!!]

 

Estimate of total deaths

For antipsychotics, I used a meta-analysis of placebo controlled trials in patients with dementia because they would be less likely to have been receiving psychiatric drugs before randomisation. The absolute death rate was 1% higher in the treatment group. The Finnish cohort study of mortality in patients with schizophrenia—and all other such studies that support the idea that antipsychotics lower mortality—is unreliable. (The mortality in patients who were not taking drugs was very high and didn’t concur with other Finnish data, and 64% of the deaths were not accounted for.)

A well conducted cohort study of patients of average age 55 found that benzodiazepines and similar drugs doubled the death rate; the excess death rate was about 1% a year.

A cohort study of patients older than 65 who were their own control found that all cause mortality was 3.6% higher when patients were taking the newer antidepressants for one year than when they did not take antidepressants.

I used Danish prescription statistics to estimate the number of deaths caused by these three classes of drugs. Because falls, which are much more common in older people, are an important cause of death in people taking psychotropic drugs, I included only people at least 65 years of age and used conservative death rates: 1% for antipsychotics, 1% for benzodiazepines and similar drugs, and only 2% for antidepressants. The total number of deaths a year in Denmark (3693) when scaled up corresponded to 539 000 in the United States and European Union combined.

......................................//...................

This is an interesting sentence"

"Patients, who after a short wash-out period are randomised to placebo, go “cold turkey” and often experience withdrawal symptoms."

 

My understanding of this so called 'wash out period' is that in the trials they cold turkey someone off the drug and then put them immediately and unethically into the placebo cohort ...they then go and commit suicide ...as you would...and they then call it a placebo suicide and not a suicide due to the drug.

This action if i am correct is truly sickening! 

[btdt]

One thing that irks me is the age restriction ...over 65.

WE have dealt with 18 - 24 now we are going to deal with over 65.

It is in those 41 years in the middle we live most of our lives if we are lucky enough to make it that long. 

 

Bother number 2 difficult name behind the study 

Peter C Gøtzsche

 

I plan on saying this name a lot if typing it and my heavens it is going to be hard for me to do when I have trouble with ordinary words ... his opponents in this matter... look how easy their names are Young... I did not even look that up Caze no Crace... how unfair life is to me. 

 

I will not stop me I will right his name till I can see it in my sleep Gotzsche ...Got zebra shoes climbing high embankment... no I would not remember that either... but there was a time when mitochondria was a word I had to look up 6 or 7 times in order to copy it correctly .. now it just rolls of the fingers ...Gotzsche will too one day. 

 

I have yet to go through the article with a clear head as a clear head escapes me can't wait for my brain to fully engage so I can get my teeth into it... what would an antidepressant withdrawal clinic look like... 

 

#1 they have to have to be able to accurately measure medications. 

#2 not be afraid of or misdiagnose all those symptoms of wd ... the ones nobody seems to admit to ... stark negativity seen as a stage... for instance that will pass.  Persecution thoughts that may come from people completely misunderstanding this is drug induced issue that you really can't get up ... your not lazy. So many things need to be covered to make these places any good ... no to make them perfect because we and those coming behind us deserve nothing less. 

There is not way they could do this without us as who else even knows these things exist...a adhock withdrawal place if one should ever exist could actually make it worse... if they think they know all an know very little like we see with everything else. 

 

I am doing small bites right now this is my small bite for now. This deserves so much more also the idea that his paper will just fade into the dust bin with all other hopeful papers ... that idea I refuse to give space to just yet.  Maybe we need to promote this article to as many news sources as we can. 

peace

[nz11]

Here is the video'

http://cepuk.org/2015/05/14/video-maudsley-debate-psychiatric-drug-harm/

 

Hey btdt ...a wdl centre would have to be a pharma tentacle free zone!

[btdt]

Thank you so much!!!! 

[btdt]

While watching the video gave me something to do that actually interests me I was a bit let down by some of the questions seems they could have used some SA member there Still it is going forward I hope.  I was hoping to hear something of wd clinics and misunderstood a bit as I was thinking when I read this "  pharma tentacle free zone!"   that perhaps the debate included this phrase in the discussion... I know now that was wishful thinking but I think in my natural state I was born an optimist and some thing of that is left in me... almost dead but clinging to life.  Still I like the idea people are talking.  

 

Dr Young is quite the little name dropper I think he was feeling a bit insecure or that is how it seemed to me... the brainwashing may have been starting to fail.I think some one called him a sell out.. but I can't be sure.  There were key places in the video where the audio failed seemed to be at important places too.

peace all

[nz11]

btdt

That was just my suggestion to you as to what a wdl clinic would look like or at least an addition to the list of your requirements above.

Yep a 'Pharma tentacle free zone' a definite must!!

 

I really hate it when these people produce a ssri addict to support their case, now we will hear from our psychiatrists performing seal.....is that ethical.

Thats like getting an alcoholic in denial to tell you why alcohol is ok.  I get really anxious when i don't have my bottle of sherry each night and i feel so much better when i have it. It really is a wonder drink.

He had clearly attempted to get off in the past but gone back on i would have loved someone to question him on previous tapering methods (if any) that would have revealed a lot. 

 

Yeah the audio wasn't that great was it. What was that last guys analogy ..something about headaches?

[btdt]

Yes I get that now it was your idea.. and a good one too... maybe one of us one day will start a thread title what would YOUR Antidepressant withdrawal clinic need?  

 

I missed the headache bit did not catch it. 

I have this idea there were some Ad users there not just that one guy but in some of the people putting forth questions. I can here they same sort of confusion in their sentences as I have in my head .. bet it made sense to them in some form before they opened their mouths .. this happens to me a lot no good on my feet in a a lot of cases... it comes and goes that I don't understand. 

I noticed it especially from the man who talked of people dying in the streets and what are they going to do when people figure this out... and it hits the fan. 

I can read between the lines of what he is saying I get his drift it is like some new psych drug damage language he and I share... quite odd actually to see another with the same issue trying to put forth an idea.   Still interesting. 

 

I thought that too he likely did not taper properly and still has times he need to stop his life... I actually feel sorry for him he doesn't know any better he is any of use with a better liver and a job that allows him to keep working and pay him sick time... who has ever had that not me... he is lucky and unlucky is my view ... but if I had to choose I would be him over me he still has a chance to learn and get off the drugs... and still has a life.  He managed it some how and that is what it is all about then he is winning and i am certainly not winning.... 

 

We are all trying to get thru this life best we can.. we think we are right he thinks he is ..

 

I wish I could come back in 100 or 200 years however long it takes to sort this out and see what actually happens.