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L-arginine, agmatine, guanidine


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I have been taking some l-arginine before bedtime to help sleep, at the recommendation of my doctor -- and it seems to be effective!

 

He said there was some evidence l-arginine increases the restorative quality of stage I non-REM sleep, increasing the production of growth factor (IGF), which in turn repairs cells all over the body and stimulates neurogenesis. Which is a good thing.

 

Stage I non-REM sleep is the first batch of sleep you get at night, usually with no dreams. L-arginine is an amino acid present in plant and animal proteins https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Arginine#cite_note-3. In the body, it helps produce nitric oxide, which causes blood vessel relaxation (vasodilation), and stimulates the production of protein http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/l-arginine/NS_patient-arginine

 

I'm also taking the My-B-Tab supplement (manufactured by Legere, get it at myvillagegreen.com) containing 25mg adenosine monophosphate (AMP), a sleep signal for the brain. This works with the l-arginine. Nitric oxide in the bloodstream is another sleep signal.

 

He suggested I start with 100mg before bed but all I could find was 500mg capsules -- very inexpensive, too. I opened up a capsule and put about a quarter of it in my whey protein drink. There weren't any problems with that -- it wasn't doing any harm, anyway -- so I increased to a half-capsule, 250mg. After a few nights, that seemed to be okay, so I increased to 500mg. Well, at 500mg, the sleepiness is too intense, I get a paradoxical effect. I'm going back down to 250mg at bedtime.

 

Since the l-arginine experiment seemed to be going well, my doctor suggested taking an additional 250mg in the middle of the night. This seems to work, too, sending me back to dreamland for an hour or two.

 

L-arginine doesn't seem to have any bad effects so far. Studies on it (see http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/l-arginine/NS_patient-arginine/DSECTION=evidence)have used daily doses of 0.5-16 grams.

 

Because nitric oxide relaxes blood vessels and reduces blood pressure, l-arginine may be helpful for migraines, circulation problems, Raynaud's phenomenon, and erectile dysfunction (!).

 

Of special note, it seems to be helpful for autonomic dysfunction (J Neurol. 2001 Dec;248(12):1036-41. Cardiovascular and neurohormonal responses to i. v. l-arginine in two groups with primary autonomic failure. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12013579),lowering blood pressure and heart rate. See below: The effects of oral arginine on neuroautonomic parameters in healthy subjects. Lechin F, van der Dijs B, Baez S, Hernandez-Adrian G, Orozco B, Rodriguez S. J Appl Res 2006; 6(3): 201-213. Full text at http://www.jarcet.com/articles/Vol6Iss3/10Lechin.pdf

 

Of the studies of l-arginine on sleep, one is J Mol Neurosci. 2003;21(1):57-63. Plasma levels of nitric oxide and L-arginine in sleep apnea patients: effects of nCPAP treatment. Lavie L, Hefetz A, Luboshitzky R, Lavie P. Full text at http://www.rbolen.com/biosem/articles/fall_06/kai_research.pdf .

 

It may not be good for you if you have low blood pressure or other conditions, see http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/l-arginine/NS_patient-arginine/DSECTION=safety

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This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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  • 10 months later...

Has anyone tried combining arginine and lysine to lower cortisol?

 

Oral treatment with L-lysine and L-arginine reduces anxiety and basal cortisol levels in healthy humans.

 

Dietary supplementation with an essential amino acid L-lysine has been shown to reduce chronic anxiety in humans with low dietary intake of L-lysine. A combination of L-lysine and L-arginine has been documented to normalize hormonal stress responses in humans with high trait anxiety. The present study was carried out in one hundred eight healthy Japanese adults. The aim of study was to find out whether a week-long oral treatment with L-lysine (2.64 g per day) and L-arginine (2.64 g per day) reduces trait and stress-induced state anxiety and basal levels of stress hormones. We confirmed that, without regard to gender, the amino acid treatment significantly reduced both trait anxiety and state anxiety induced by cognitive stress battery. In addition, we found that the treatment with L-lysine and L-arginine decreased the basal levels of salivary cortisol and chromogranin-A (a salivary marker of the sympatho-adrenal system) in male subjects. These results of this double-blind, placebo controlled and randomized study confirm the previous findings in humans and animals and point to a combination of L-lysine and L-arginine as a potentially useful dietary intervention in otherwise healthy humans with high subjective levels of mental stress and anxiety.

On 20 mg Celexa for 7 years for insomnia and GAD

Tapered from 20 mg to 0 from Aug 2011 to Dec 2nd 2011

Used Xanax intermittently over the past 7 years, and through WD.

Started 50 mgs Trazodone in June but am starting to taper off due to bad eye twitching, suspected Trazodone is the cause. Went to 25 mg in October and then 12.5 in December and then 0mg on Dec 20th.

 

Reinstated citalopram at 10 mgs on Nov 26th, then up to 20 mgs on Dec 3rd. Started kindling reaction on Dec 10th. Decided a very quick taper to 10 mgs for a 2 days and then 5mgs for a 2 more. Holding at 2.5 mg and beginning to stabilize. Reinstated trazodone to 12.5 mgs.

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Hmm.. thanks for posting that! I'm willing to try it (after I'm done with my experiments with niacinamide and lactium). Please let us know what results you get if you try it!

'94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.
6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.
11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.
9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.
10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?
11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever.

1/13 Best I've ever felt.

3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows.

4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time.

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I've had a mixed result with it. I am quite sensitive to it and it seems to drop my bp substantially. For me, related to depressed bp, I experience vision/eye problems -- I have a strucural abnormaility of the optic disc predisposing me to optic nerve stroke and possible permanent blindness so caution is required. (A bad response to cialis caused temporsry, sudden vision failure in the left eye (NAION) and then vision problems, pressure exerted on eyeball, pain in left eye for a week therafter. I experience eye irregularities here and there, mostly bloodshot-ness but sometimes vision disturbance in the left one since the cialis deal in late 2009.

 

it's too bad b/c I have had a profound blood flow response below the belt with the arginine, even with really tiny doses. But my sense and that of my opthamoligst tells me not to take any chances.

 

Alex

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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I am not surprised that you had that reaction Akex. Those side effects are documented and you are in such a hypersensitive state currently.

 

I am an anomaly on this forum as I am 10 years post WD and my nervous system is not hypersensitive. However, just because I survived antidepressants doesn't mean that I entered into a state of happy go lucky mental and emotional health, life still has its ups and downs.

 

I have suffered from what the DSM defines as GAD all my life. I have been like this long before I was medicated and my Mother is exactly the same. I personally believe that the GAD (for lack of a better term) is both learned as well as psychological in nature. I am always looking for natural ways to deal with this especially since there is a link between my anxiety and chronic headaches. 

 

Starting today I am going to try the L-Argine with L-Lysine combination. Since I know that sometimes supplements can take up to three months to present their "return on investment" I am going to give it three months. These amino acids might have an added benefit on my hard core exercise regimen since they reportedly release the HGH.

 

I will let everyone know if I see and improvement in anxiety reduction.

 

Amino acids do help in sleep inducement. There is a product called Somatomax which is chock full of amino acids. I have a friend who struggled to come off a legacy of insommnia treatments which each stopped working at some point and she moved to another drug. The poor thing started with Ambien, moved to Seroquel, then to Xanax, then to Klonopin with Lunesta. She is now down to a small amount of Klonopin taken once a week. She swears by Somatomax. I would be would be worried that it maybe too much for those in early withdrawal. But here is the product and it's ingredients as you can see L-Argine and L-Tyrosine are ingredients. I cannot take it because I am sensitive to Aspartame which is the artificial sweetener which can cause GI problems:

 

http://www.suppsearch.com/ingredients.php?id=somatomax-4172

Withdrew cold turkey from six medications: Celexa, Zyprexa, Depakote, Ativan, Ambien and Phentermine in 2002. It has been 10 years since I told polypharmacy to take a hike and have joined this forum to let others know that success is possible and to hopefully save people from experiencing the suffering that I did under psychiatric "care".

 

MY STORY

 

"TENSION is when we try to be who we think we should be, RELAXATION is when we are who we really are."

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Thanks, Whatever.

 

I would caution people with hypersensitive nervous systems about artificial sweeteners like aspartame. This may not have a good effect on you.

 

What I might do is look at the ingredients in this supplement, buy them one at a time, and try them by adding one at a time to my own custom mix.

 

That way, you can leave out anything that doesn't agree with you.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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  • 5 months later...
  • Administrator

Gia tells me she's had a good result from arginine for relaxation and palpitations. The effect seems to last for a few hours. She said it made her very sleepy.

 

This might be a good thing to take at night or if you wake up in the middle of the night.

 

(I stopped taking it last year, not sure why, but I'm going to try it again.)

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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very effective but only briefly so it's very roller coastery...last 2 or 3 hours then need some more...not nice when it stops working...still I gave it a good shot because I'm trying to permanently drop a wee dose of a beta blocker that also has a lot of issues...

 

okay...I didn't sleep pretty much at all...so this isn't likely to work...

 

I've cut and pasted what I wrote to my doctor...mostly just musing...

 

while most of my brain is relaxed by this substance (wonderfully so) one part remains alert...so I rested for about 4 hours...but did not sleep...I had some dream-like stuff happening too but I was awake but sedated...or maybe parts of me were asleep while this one part remained awake...

 

in any case I got up at midnight and got progressively more strung out and uncomfortable...

 

I ended up taking the L-arginine again...figuring remaining calm and awake was better than freaking out and it kept me off the inderal another day...(my doctor had suggested I try not to take the beta blocker every day)

 

but now I think the part that is awake needs to sleep and when this wears off I will be truly messed up...

 

and this most likely, many years ago, would have triggered mania...I'm too grounded now and understand my experience enough that won't happen, but it may get ugly nonetheless... (end of note to doc)

 

so, yeah...it's now almost 6 am and it's gonna be a rough day...

 

BUYER BEWARE...

 

I do think this supplement might be helpful for some people if it's used very carefully but I'm not sure how that might look...and would likely differ in different people...

 

oh the very first dose made me take a nap too...but at this point I'm just alert but calm...though as it wears off the calmness leaves and I won't be taking anymore so it may get rather ugly as I said above.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

oh, I took this because it's referred to as a natural beta blocker and I'm trying to get off Inderal...I only take 5 mg of that which is 1/2 a pill of the smallest dose...but it's gone kind of paradox on me as well...and since I have radical autonomic nastiness (heart palps and pain and global body stuff too) I'm not sure what is going to come next...

 

ah...what an adventure.

Everything Matters: Beyond Meds 

https://beyondmeds.com/

withdrawn from a cocktail of 6 psychiatric drugs that included every class of psych drug.
 

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Yes, I think I stopped using it last year because of something I thought was a paradoxical reaction.

 

Arginine might be something to use occasionally. I've found all my sleep remedies work only once in a while, nothing seems to work 3 times in a row.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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Yes, I think I stopped using it last year because of something I thought was a paradoxical reaction.

 

Arginine might be something to use occasionally. I've found all my sleep remedies work only once in a while, nothing seems to work 3 times in a row.

 

That has been my experience even when I used food items to get back to sleep. Last week, almonds worked great one day and then each proceeding day, the effectiveness wasn't as great until they no longer worked.

 

Sleepytime tea worked one time and no longer does.

 

What the bleep is that about?

 

I still have some L-arginine so I might give it a shot if I wake up in the middle of the night. I think I will take half the dose.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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  • Moderator Emeritus

maybe having some will be good to try for next time i get the unbearable anxiety (although maybe with a more measured taper it won't happen!)

Started in 2000 - On 150mg most of the time, (but up to 225mg at highest dose for 6 months in the beginning)
Reduced off easily first time - but got depressed (not too much anxiety) 6 months later
Back on effexor for another 9 months.
Reduced off again with no immediate w/d - suddenly got depressed and anxious ++ again 3 or 4 months later.
Back on effexor - this time for 3 years
Reduced off over a month - 6 weeks later terrible anxiety - back on.
Rinse and repeat 4 more times - each time the period before the anxiety comes back got shorter and shorter
Jan - July 2012 75mg down to 37.5mg;, 8/3/12 - 35mg. 8/25/12 - 32mg. 9/11- 28mg, 10/2 - 25mg, 10/29 - 22mg, 11/19 - 19.8mg; 12/11 - 17m,
1/1- 15.5mg; 1/22 -14mg, 2/7 14.9mg, 2/18 - 17.8mg - crashed big time: back to 75mg where i sat for 2 years....

4th  March 2015 - 67.5mg;   31st March - 60mg;  24th April - 53mg; 13th May - 48mg; 26th May - 45mg;  9th June - 41mg; 1 July- 37.5mg; 20 July - 34mg; 11 August - 31mg; 1st Sept - 28mg;  1st Dec - 25.8mg;  28th Dec - 23.2mg; 23rd Jan-21.9mg; Feb 7th- 21mg; March 1st - 20.1mg, March 30th - 18mg

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No supplement can compensate for a too-fast taper, peggy. It's always best to control the taper rather than assume you can fix withdrawal symptoms with a supplement or other treatment.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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I'm now taking l-arginine as part of the supplement FertileCM (for fertile cervical mucus). I took it the month before my dad died, and I was seeing considerable improvement then. Not sure I've experienced anything now (thought it REALLY helps for cervical mucus, heh heh). Maybe I'll take it at night and at dawn instead of during the day and see if it helps.

 

Last night I had a horrible night... woke up from light sleep every one or two hours. It seems that during this current setback I've gone down from a "first sleep" that was about three cycles (4 1/2 to 5 hours) to a two cycle one at most (3 hours). And not even full cycles last night. Wonder if it has anything to do with the l-arginine.

 

So hard to know what to take and what not to take, especially when your reaction fluctuates!

'94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.
6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.
11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.
9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.
10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?
11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever.

1/13 Best I've ever felt.

3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows.

4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time.

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The Journal of Applied Research • Vol. 6, No. 3, 2006

The Effects of Oral Arginine on Neuroautonomic Parameters in Healthy Subjects

Fuad Lechin, MD, PhD*†‡§ Bertha van der Dijs, MD†‡§ Scarlet Baez, MD†‡ Gerardo Hernandez, MD*‡§ Beatriz Orozco, MD‡§ Simon Rodriguez, MD‡§

 

Free full text http://jrnlappliedresearch.com/articles/Vol6Iss3/10Lechin.pdf

 

ABSTRACT

L-arginine is an essential amino acid that exerts both peripheral and central nervous system effects. Although it has been used as a growth hormone releasing agent, this amino acid also provokes significant blood pressure and heart rate changes in all patients tested. This study assessed the changes induced by the oral administration of this amino acid on the peripheral autonomic nervous system in 52 subjects (26 L-arginine, 26 placebo). The levels of the following circulating neurotransmitters were measured before and after a small oral dose (50 mg) of L-arginine: noradrenaline (NA), adrenaline (Ad), dopamine (DA), plasma serotonin (f-5HT), platelet sero- tonin (p-5HT), and plasma tryptophane. Systolic blood pressure, diastolic blood pressure, and heart rate were also moni- tored. L-arginine triggered sustained and progressive increases of NA, DA, f-5HT, p-5HT, and the f-5HT/p-5HT ratio as well as sustained and progressive decrease of Ad. Diastolic blood pressure but not systolic blood pressure showed significant and progressive reductions. Progressive heart rate reductions were also observed. Significant positive correlation was registered between diastolic blood pressure versus NA/DA ratio and significant negative correlation was found between heart rate versus f- 5HT/p-5HT ratio. An oral administration of 50 mg of L-arginine was able to provoke parasympathetic over sympathetic and neural-sympathetic over adrenal-sympathetic predominance.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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An oral administration of 50 mg of L-arginine was able to provoke parasympathetic over sympathetic and neural-sympathetic over adrenal-sympathetic predominance.

 

Theoretically, this is a very good thing for those of use experiencing excessive alerting (coming from the sympathetic nervous system and the adrenals). The parasympathetic nervous system is our natural braking system for alerting.

 

After seeing that Gia is experimenting with l-arginine, I'm giving it another chance to help my fragmented sleep.

 

This time, I tried 50mg, as in Lechin's paper, above. I think I might have had a paradoxical reaction to 100mg last year.

 

Since I've got 500mg capsules of arginine, I had to roughly estimate 50mg and put it in a gelatin capsule. It's a very small amount, as you would expect a tenth of a capsule to be.

 

I took it before bed, at 9 p.m.

 

This is what I found out so far from my hypersensitive nervous system:

 

- I did indeed get a bang out of only 50mg.

 

- It took an hour for the effect to come on.

 

- At first it made me pleasantly relaxed. Sometime after 10, I drowsed off, but the effect was too intense and I kept waking up, and drowsing off again. I think I pretty much conked out from 11 to close to midnight.

 

- After I finally got into bed, the same thing happened, drowsing off, waking up, with that "almost too intensely relaxing" feeling from the arginine.

 

- I slept better in the early hours than I have been recently. Not continuously, but better, and the relaxation during the times I was awake was pleasant.

 

- I felt fine this morning.

 

So, in general, I think trying arginine is a good thing. This is what I'm going to do:

 

- Try taking 50mg earlier, like around 6 p.m.; when it was wearing off, I slept better.

 

- Try taking 25mg when I wake up around 2 or 3 a.m., which has been my pattern for the last month.

 

Now, 25mg is going to be a very, very small amount of arginine. It's about as much as you'd get in salt from a quick shake from a salt shaker. I might even try the "dab" method, where I wet my finger, open a capsule, and take a little dab from the capsule, as much as fits on my wet finger, in the circumference of the capsule.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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My experiment with arginine continues, and seems to be more successful than with other supplements!

 

I found 25mg works well in the evening before bed (I take it with 500mg glycine). It contributes to relaxation and deeper, more restorative sleep. It's better for me than 50mg, which was almost scarily intense.

 

25mg takes at least an hour to take effect and lasts a few hours.

 

Now, I'm trying taking half as much -- about 12.5mg -- when I wake up at night, to help me get back to sleep. So far, it's worked! And I'm not waking up feeling hot so much.

 

Arginine lowers body temperature, so does glycine. We know being cool rather than hot is good for sleep. This may help people who have hot flushes that disturb their sleep.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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  • Moderator Emeritus

 

Arginine lowers body temperature, so does glycine. We know being cool rather than hot is good for sleep. This may help people who have hot flushes that disturb their sleep.

 

Cooollll (ahem). I'm going to try this. I've been having chemically induced hot flashes, discreetly different from the 'real deal', and wake up when I over heat. Thanks for the update.

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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yes, thanks Alto for the update!

Started in 2000 - On 150mg most of the time, (but up to 225mg at highest dose for 6 months in the beginning)
Reduced off easily first time - but got depressed (not too much anxiety) 6 months later
Back on effexor for another 9 months.
Reduced off again with no immediate w/d - suddenly got depressed and anxious ++ again 3 or 4 months later.
Back on effexor - this time for 3 years
Reduced off over a month - 6 weeks later terrible anxiety - back on.
Rinse and repeat 4 more times - each time the period before the anxiety comes back got shorter and shorter
Jan - July 2012 75mg down to 37.5mg;, 8/3/12 - 35mg. 8/25/12 - 32mg. 9/11- 28mg, 10/2 - 25mg, 10/29 - 22mg, 11/19 - 19.8mg; 12/11 - 17m,
1/1- 15.5mg; 1/22 -14mg, 2/7 14.9mg, 2/18 - 17.8mg - crashed big time: back to 75mg where i sat for 2 years....

4th  March 2015 - 67.5mg;   31st March - 60mg;  24th April - 53mg; 13th May - 48mg; 26th May - 45mg;  9th June - 41mg; 1 July- 37.5mg; 20 July - 34mg; 11 August - 31mg; 1st Sept - 28mg;  1st Dec - 25.8mg;  28th Dec - 23.2mg; 23rd Jan-21.9mg; Feb 7th- 21mg; March 1st - 20.1mg, March 30th - 18mg

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You know, I've been wondering if my symptoms (burning/tingling in arms and legs, and now RLS-like feeling in legs and muscle pain/cramping) are actually caused by poor circulation, rather than being true akathisia/paresthesia. My GP mentioned circulation problems when I first described those symptoms to him. I suspect it's a symptom of dysautonomia, rather than being due to arterial disease or anything like that.

 

I'm going to give the argentine a go, since it can help improve blood flow.

2003-2011: Paroxetine,Citalopram,Effexor; Aug/Sept 2011: Effexor to Mirtazapine; Oct 2011: C/T Mirtazapine back to Effexor; Nov/Dec 2011: Fast Tapered Effexor - w/d hell; Feb 2012: Reinstated Effexor 37.5mg; June 2012: Dropped to 35.6mg; Jan 2016: Propranolol 2.5mg per day for general anxiety; Feb 2016: Finasteride 0.25mg per week to slow hair loss; 18th May - 8th June 2019: Started Vyvanse 7.5mg and increased by 7.5mg weekly to 30mg (lowest “therapeutic” dose for adults).; 21st June 2019 - 12th July: Cross tapered from venlafaxine brand Rodomel to Efexor (1/4 > 1/2 > 3/4 weekly before ditching Rodomel); 13th July 2019: Cut Vyvanse dose to 15mg; 15th July 2019: Akathisia returned after years of being free; 16th July 2019: Went back up to Vyvanse 30mg

Supplements: Omega-3, Vitamin D, Zinc, Phosphatidylserine 

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You know, I've been wondering if my symptoms (burning/tingling in arms and legs, and now RLS-like feeling in legs and muscle pain/cramping) are actually caused by poor circulation, rather than being true akathisia/paresthesia.

 

If you have this during sleep, it's RLS. You just gave an excellent description of what I've been dealing with since starting to taper from klonopin 19 months ago. I've been able to keep them at a low roar by tapering very slowly. Admittedly, RLS is miserable. The arm stuff is not as well known, but this does occur and most of my RLS are in my arms. I've asked Alto if what I've experienced is akasthisia and she said no, it's not the same. Unfortunately, RLS is a common withdrawal symptom. Is this the symptom that increases when you become less stable? Docs usually do not believe that withdrawal as we experience it does not occur and would very likely attribute symptoms to another cause.

 

Learn how to search this site for Alto's responses to me by going here.

 

 

See the description below from helpguide.org

 

"The symptoms of restless legs syndrome (RLS) can range from mildly annoying to severely disabling. You may experience the symptoms only once in a while, such as when you’re under a lot of stress, or restless legs may plague you every night. In severe cases of restless legs syndrome (RLS), you may experience symptoms in your arms as well as your legs.

"Leg discomfort and strong urge to move – Uncomfortable sensations deep within the legs, accompanied by a strong, often irresistible urge to move them. Many describe the sensations as tingling, jitteriness, a “creepy crawly” feeling, itching, or pulling.

 

Rest triggers the symptoms – Leg pain is usually trigged by activity and relieved by rest, but with restless legs syndrome, the reverse is true. Restless leg symptoms start or become worse when you’re sitting, relaxing, or trying to rest.

 

Symptoms get worse night – Restless legs syndrome (RLS) typically flares up at night, especially when you’re lying down. In more severe cases, the symptoms may begin earlier in the day, but they become much more intense at bedtime.

 

Symptoms improve when you walk or move your legs – The uncomfortable sensations temporarily get better when you move, stretch, or massage your legs. The relief continues as long as you keep moving.

 

Nighttime leg twitching – Many people with restless legs syndrome (RLS) also have periodic limb movement disorder (PLMD), a sleep disorder that involves repetitive cramping or jerking of the legs during sleep. These leg movements further disrupt your sleep."

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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hi everyone...

at some point I'll try to write more about my experiences with L-Arginine (this latest round of comments started when I told Alto about taking it recently)

 

anyway, I've been experimenting and it's hugely POTENT for me...and not all good...so want to let people know they should be cautious.

 

it's clear it has done something that is most likely positive, but it's like a heavy psychoactive drug for me.

 

If I'm really tired it helps me sleep, but if I have any energy at all it makes me really energetic...though when I take it the first two hours is always vaguely trippy and part of that is a sense of heavy sedation...

 

AND...I'm now not taking more than 10 mg...and it's still uber-intense...

 

most likely will go down to 5 mg if I take it again, which I'm not sure I will...

 

in any case I'm just sharing my experience because in my body it's really intense and it may be in others too...

Everything Matters: Beyond Meds 

https://beyondmeds.com/

withdrawn from a cocktail of 6 psychiatric drugs that included every class of psych drug.
 

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Yes, it's strange, it does seem to be very powerful little amino acid.

 

Schuyler, akathisia only exists as an adverse effect of drugs, but otherwise the line between akathisia and RLS is not clear.

 

jr, dysautonomia can affect circulation, too, it's one of the things controlled by the autonomic nervous system, as well as tension in the muscles and even walls of the blood vessels.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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jr, dysautonomia can affect circulation, too, it's one of the things controlled by the autonomic nervous system, as well as tension in the muscles and even walls of the blood vessels.

 

Alto, are you thereby saying that the drugs can cause dysautonomia... and they can also be effecting the circulatory system, so jr could have both RLS and dysautonomia?

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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I don't know about the involvement of the circulatory system in RLS or akathisia.

 

Having experienced some of the leg-movement symptoms as a withdrawal symptom, along with spastic cramping in my feet, I suspect it involves errant nerve impulses and muscle tension.

 

Sure, one could have RLS and dysautonomia. RLS may be autonomically mediated, who knows?

 

RLS is a condition diagnosed from subjective description of symptoms, which is why pharma has targeted it with big drug campaigns (Requip). Pharma thrives on vaguely defined subjective disorders that anyone could have.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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  • 2 weeks later...
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I continue to have good results from arginine.

 

I take only 10mg-15mg, before bed and when I wake up in the middle of the night.

 

I think it's changing my sleep pattern for the better!!!

 

It's been helping me get back to sleep when I wake up at 3 a.m.

 

It take the powder, on my tongue. I found it has an faster effect that way. It doesn't taste great, but I wash it down with a little water.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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  • 5 months later...
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Good point, Madelyn. For nutrition, combined amino acids, such as are found in proteins, are best.

 

We're trying to tip the scale on symptoms a little bit with individual amino acids, some of which have neurological effects, without causing adverse reactions.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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I've had a mixed result with it. I am quite sensitive to it and it seems to drop my bp substantially. For me, related to depressed bp, I experience vision/eye problems -- I have a strucural abnormaility of the optic disc predisposing me to optic nerve stroke and possible permanent blindness so caution is required. (A bad response to cialis caused temporsry, sudden vision failure in the left eye (NAION) and then vision problems, pressure exerted on eyeball, pain in left eye for a week therafter. I experience eye irregularities here and there, mostly bloodshot-ness but sometimes vision disturbance in the left one since the cialis deal in late 2009.

 

it's too bad b/c I have had a profound blood flow response below the belt with the arginine, even with really tiny doses. But my sense and that of my opthamoligst tells me not to take any chances.

 

Alex

 

 

Do you think that would make it risky for someone with glaucoma?

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You might phone your ophthalmologist and ask, tezza.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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I decided to give this another go after I've come to realise that I feel a lot better, withdrawal-wise, after a good nights sleep. I tried it before according to this thread but I can't remember why I stopped.

 

Tonight I took 250mg (1/2 recommended dose on the bottle), and now I can't sleep :-/ (now I know why I stopped it!). I feel so drowsy that its gone paradoxical on me. It reminds me of how magnesium effects me.

 

I think I might try a tiny dose before giving up completely. Alto, do you just dab a bit on your finger , or how do you take such a small dose?

2003-2011: Paroxetine,Citalopram,Effexor; Aug/Sept 2011: Effexor to Mirtazapine; Oct 2011: C/T Mirtazapine back to Effexor; Nov/Dec 2011: Fast Tapered Effexor - w/d hell; Feb 2012: Reinstated Effexor 37.5mg; June 2012: Dropped to 35.6mg; Jan 2016: Propranolol 2.5mg per day for general anxiety; Feb 2016: Finasteride 0.25mg per week to slow hair loss; 18th May - 8th June 2019: Started Vyvanse 7.5mg and increased by 7.5mg weekly to 30mg (lowest “therapeutic” dose for adults).; 21st June 2019 - 12th July: Cross tapered from venlafaxine brand Rodomel to Efexor (1/4 > 1/2 > 3/4 weekly before ditching Rodomel); 13th July 2019: Cut Vyvanse dose to 15mg; 15th July 2019: Akathisia returned after years of being free; 16th July 2019: Went back up to Vyvanse 30mg

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I just pour out a small pile of powder on my palm, then down the hatch. It doesn't taste too bad.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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  • 3 months later...

Ok, my struggle for a decent sleep continues....

I've darkened the room, so no light whatsoever comes in.Tonite is going to be my first night,I'll see what happens.

I also found old posts from 2011, about the benefits of L-arginine;anybody can give any comments on this supplement?

I have been taking 100mg Seriphos for 3 months now...not very good results.I wake up every hr or so..terrible.

I am 11 months off. no reinstament, no AD

4 years aprox. on 150mgs.Effexor for situational major depression.No AD before.
Tapered 150-0mgs in 3 months.

Tapered Quetiapine,Xanax in the last 18 months.NO med of any kind anymore.
First 3 months off acute w/d
Protracted w/d ever since.
Symptoms:Anxiety,anhedonia,insomnia,tinnitus,PSSD

04/13/2014 Awful Relapse.Recovered fairly fast.

3 years and 4 months off.

waves and windows.Very much recovered.

November 2015,health issue.Setback.
 

 

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Here is the existing l-arginine topic.

 

Please use search in this forum before starting new topics.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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I am sorry I didn't know there was a topic about this already.

I really would like an update from this issue about Arginine,if you Alto still taking it, if you or somebody else has seen any benefit from it...information, updated information, yes??

4 years aprox. on 150mgs.Effexor for situational major depression.No AD before.
Tapered 150-0mgs in 3 months.

Tapered Quetiapine,Xanax in the last 18 months.NO med of any kind anymore.
First 3 months off acute w/d
Protracted w/d ever since.
Symptoms:Anxiety,anhedonia,insomnia,tinnitus,PSSD

04/13/2014 Awful Relapse.Recovered fairly fast.

3 years and 4 months off.

waves and windows.Very much recovered.

November 2015,health issue.Setback.
 

 

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  • Altostrata changed the title to L-arginine, agmatine, guanidine
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