L-arginine, agmatine, guanidine

[xamendrummerx]

Hi, is it really safe to break open the capsules for l-arginine? One or two sites said it was meant to be used in capsules and not powder form. I have a bottle of 500mg capsules sitting here for a year now and too scared to use the powder and try 25mg or less because I'm not sure if all powder forms of l-arginine are ok to break open.

[Altostrata]

Yes, it's okay to take the powder out of the capsule. I did this for quite a while. It's only an amino acid.

 

By the way, L-ornithine is another amino acid enabling arginine production, and may be a less intense way to take arginine.

 

Both increase nitric oxide, which promotes sleep (and lowers blood pressure). See http://www.livestrong.com/article/542405-ornithine-for-sleep/

 

However, see http://www.livestrong.com/article/538178-can-ornithine-help-you-sleep/

 

As with all supplements, try a little bit first to see how it affects you.

[Rhiannon]

Alto, are you still taking the arginine? have you tried the ornithine yourself? I'd like to find something to help with the middle of the night awakening to get a couple more hours sleep. 

[Altostrata]

I took small amounts of arginine for quite a while and found it effective. Haven't tried the ornithine yet (saw alexejice's note about it).

[compsports]

Took a miniscule amount of arginine to get back to sleep after the glycine I had taken was too activating.   Only slept an extra hour but I will give this a shot tonight and see if I do better since the glycine won't be in the mix.

 

Stay tuned.

 

CS

[compsports]

Used a very small amout of argine and glycine to get back to sleep. Tried just using argine initially but when I felt that wasn't going to be enough, dabbed a small amount of glycine on my finger.

 

Unfortunately, it didnt help me tolerate the mask. But when I took mask off, slept an hour.  Woke up for a second and then went to sleep for 3 more hours.

 

So if anyone is looking for a OTC sleep aide to get back to bed, you might want to give this a shot.  How long it will last is another issue.

 

Now I have to figure out a way to keep mask on.  It is like when I wake up trying to get back to sleep, my body wants no part of it.

 

CS

 

PS - Forgot to mention that even though I slept without the mask, I had the sense by sleep was better than it normally would be under these conditions. As a result, I found these previous links, including a post by Alto on this site, that seems to support my subjective feelings:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/100-l-arginine-for-sleep/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14500996

[wulfgar]

Found arginine at the fitness store and thought i would give it a try. Read the label more closely at home, and the capsules contains l-arginine ethyl ester. Should this work? Its kind of a strange container in black with a big "ARGININE HARDCORE" print on it. Am i going to get no sleep, all muscle and ripped instead?

[Altostrata]

See http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/southfacts_aee.htm

 

I have no idea what this is. If it doesn't get degraded in the intestine, where does it get absorbed?

[wulfgar]

Will be careful with this one and try to get regular l-arginine

[mammaP]

I looked at l'argenine after reading this and found hundreds, all for body building.

I do need to build up stamina but the only 6 pack I want is water in the fridge 

[simack]

Just ordered myself some l-arginine and l-lysine, hoping this combo will at least help take the edge of my anxiety/insomnia.

[nickmanning]

I have been taking some l-arginine before bedtime to help sleep, at the recommendation of my doctor -- and it seems to be effective!  In the body, it helps produce nitric oxide...

 

The scientific paper that was posted here claims that an increase in nitric oxide during withdrawal is a bad thing. Is this correct or am I misinterpreting it?

 

Harvey, 2003 Neurobiology of antidepressant withdrawal:

Increasing evidence supports an association between depressive illness and disturbances in brain glutamate activity, nitric oxide synthesis, and gamma-amino butyric acid. Preclinical models link this potentially neurodegenerative pathology to continued stress-evoked synaptic remodeling, driven primarily by the release of glucocorticoids, glutamate, and nitric oxide.

 

[Altostrata]

The supplement that goes into your mouth is not necessarily the substance that gets into your brain (if anything gets there at all).

 

This is why reactions to supplements cannot be predicted. With arginine, as with everything else, it's "try it at a low dose and see."

[nickmanning]

The supplement that goes into your mouth is not necessarily the substance that gets into your brain (if anything gets there at all).

 

This is why reactions to supplements cannot be predicted. With arginine, as with everything else, it's "try it at a low dose and see."

 

Ah, I see. Makes sense!

[antidepressantsNoMore]

glad it works for you. I have other uses for it but I rarely use it anymore.

[freespirit123]

On 2/24/2012 at 2:35 PM, kerrip said:

Has anyone tried combining arginine and lysine to lower cortisol?

 

Oral treatment with L-lysine and L-arginine reduces anxiety and basal cortisol levels in healthy humans.

 

Dietary supplementation with an essential amino acid L-lysine has been shown to reduce chronic anxiety in humans with low dietary intake of L-lysine. A combination of L-lysine and L-arginine has been documented to normalize hormonal stress responses in humans with high trait anxiety. The present study was carried out in one hundred eight healthy Japanese adults. The aim of study was to find out whether a week-long oral treatment with L-lysine (2.64 g per day) and L-arginine (2.64 g per day) reduces trait and stress-induced state anxiety and basal levels of stress hormones. We confirmed that, without regard to gender, the amino acid treatment significantly reduced both trait anxiety and state anxiety induced by cognitive stress battery. In addition, we found that the treatment with L-lysine and L-arginine decreased the basal levels of salivary cortisol and chromogranin-A (a salivary marker of the sympatho-adrenal system) in male subjects. These results of this double-blind, placebo controlled and randomized study confirm the previous findings in humans and animals and point to a combination of L-lysine and L-arginine as a potentially useful dietary intervention in otherwise healthy humans with high subjective levels of mental stress and anxiety.

 

Hi so I'm willing to try L Arginine and this L Lysine like you suggested. How much is the dosage for someone who's never taking before? 

 

Sherina 

[freespirit123]

On 3/25/2011 at 3:39 PM, Altostrata said:

I have been taking some l-arginine before bedtime to help sleep, at the recommendation of my doctor -- and it seems to be effective!

 

He said there was some evidence l-arginine increases the restorative quality of stage I non-REM sleep, increasing the production of growth factor (IGF), which in turn repairs cells all over the body and stimulates neurogenesis. Which is a good thing.

 

Stage I non-REM sleep is the first batch of sleep you get at night, usually with no dreams. L-arginine is an amino acid present in plant and animal proteins https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Arginine#cite_note-3. In the body, it helps produce nitric oxide, which causes blood vessel relaxation (vasodilation), and stimulates the production of protein http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/l-arginine/NS_patient-arginine

 

I'm also taking the My-B-Tab supplement (manufactured by Legere, get it at myvillagegreen.com) containing 25mg adenosine monophosphate (AMP), a sleep signal for the brain. This works with the l-arginine. Nitric oxide in the bloodstream is another sleep signal.

 

He suggested I start with 100mg before bed but all I could find was 500mg capsules -- very inexpensive, too. I opened up a capsule and put about a quarter of it in my whey protein drink. There weren't any problems with that -- it wasn't doing any harm, anyway -- so I increased to a half-capsule, 250mg. After a few nights, that seemed to be okay, so I increased to 500mg. Well, at 500mg, the sleepiness is too intense, I get a paradoxical effect. I'm going back down to 250mg at bedtime.

 

Since the l-arginine experiment seemed to be going well, my doctor suggested taking an additional 250mg in the middle of the night. This seems to work, too, sending me back to dreamland for an hour or two.

 

L-arginine doesn't seem to have any bad effects so far. Studies on it (see http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/l-arginine/NS_patient-arginine/DSECTION=evidence)have used daily doses of 0.5-16 grams.

 

Because nitric oxide relaxes blood vessels and reduces blood pressure, l-arginine may be helpful for migraines, circulation problems, Raynaud's phenomenon, and erectile dysfunction (!).

 

Of special note, it seems to be helpful for autonomic dysfunction (J Neurol. 2001 Dec;248(12):1036-41. Cardiovascular and neurohormonal responses to i. v. l-arginine in two groups with primary autonomic failure. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12013579),lowering blood pressure and heart rate. See below: The effects of oral arginine on neuroautonomic parameters in healthy subjects. Lechin F, van der Dijs B, Baez S, Hernandez-Adrian G, Orozco B, Rodriguez S. J Appl Res 2006; 6(3): 201-213. Full text at http://www.jarcet.com/articles/Vol6Iss3/10Lechin.pdf

 

Of the studies of l-arginine on sleep, one is J Mol Neurosci. 2003;21(1):57-63. Plasma levels of nitric oxide and L-arginine in sleep apnea patients: effects of nCPAP treatment. Lavie L, Hefetz A, Luboshitzky R, Lavie P. Full text at http://www.rbolen.com/biosem/articles/fall_06/kai_research.pdf .

 

It may not be good for you if you have low blood pressure or other conditions, see http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/l-arginine/NS_patient-arginine/DSECTION=safety

So should I take 100mg to start?

[jesus]

I read from eHealthme that L Arginine causes insomnia.  Wright or wrong?

https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/arginine/insomnia/

 

concerned

jesus

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Altostrata
approved first post

[Altostrata]

Hello, jesus. Please read this topic from the beginning. 

 

Please start a topic for yourself in the Introductions forum, so we can get to know you.

[Theguy]

Interesting. I've been taking L-Citrullin in the morning for blood pressure. It is actually better at rising arginine levels in a sustained way, than taking arginine. My blood pressure in the morning is usually around 130. Anyways maybe I should take it, in a smaller dose at night too.

[getofflex]

I tried taking l-arginine and glycine for sleep yesterday.  I meant to take it an hour before bedtime, but was so alert and wide awake I ended up not going to bed until 10:30, which was about 1.5 hours after I took it.  I ended up taking about 1/6 to 1/5 of a capsule of l-arnithine which was probably too much.  I don't know how to measure a tiny amount to equal 25 mg of arginine, which is what I believe this thread recommends. I also took 500 mg glycine per recommendation. I did not notice any difference.  It still took about 2 hours to fall asleep.  However, on a positive note, even though I woke up a couple hours later drenched in sweat due to hot flash/night sweat, I did go right back to sleep afterwards.  My cat woke my up at 6 am making noise.  

 

Any advice on how to measure very small amounts of l-arginine powder?  I tried dissolving some in warm water, but it just clumps up and floats to the surface.  

[ChessieCat]

Fold a small piece of stiff paper in half backwards and forwards a couple of times so that it will lay flat.  Lay the paper flat and empty the capsule into the middle of the paper.  Then carefully pick up the paper and fold it partially closed so that the powder is along the fold (you might have to tap the outside of the paper to dislodge/distribute the powder evenly).  Carefully lay the paper flat and use a flat blade (knife edge) to move the required about of powder aside.

 

Or, like the druggies do, use a mirror or piece of glass and a razor blade to make a "line" which you can then divide up.

[LiaJ]

I realize this is a very old thread, and hopefully everyone here in 2012 is worlds better without needing arginine for sleep. But can you suggest a reputable brand? Supplements weird me out. Thanks.

[bottlehalffull]

Warning to people with migraines: I was taking arginine and realized it's a very strong migraine trigger for me. It makes sense, NO and vasodialation can cause migraines. It was quite a while ago (more than a year? two? ) so I don't remember the exact dosage, probably on the pretty high end (500 mg maybe), and my blood pressure is already on the low end. It took me about a month to figure out what was causing the migraines.

[lucidity]

Hey all,

 

Search here shows very little about this neurotransmitter that I've found helpful so far, so I thought I'd share my experiences with agmatine.  I thought to try it due to constant suicidal depression -- and it seems to have helped, though it's difficult to be completely sure that I'm not just in a window.  I haven't been stable since my whole ordeal began 20 months ago, likely because I'm going through kundalini syndrome and SSRI "withdrawal" at the same time.

 

Many seem to use it for reducing tolerance to, easing withdrawal from, and tapering various substance (opiates, stimulants, alcohol, benzos?) This gives me hope that maybe it has a "reset"-type effect on the brain that can help a brain going through antidepressant "withdrawal" return to normal.  It also limits glutamate's activity and I know glutamate is theorized to be a major player in antidepressant discontinuation syndrome.  Agmatine is found to be in low concentrations in those with major depression and autism (I have both of these).  

 

I originally saw posts on reddit about it helping quite a few people with their depression, though doses they suggest tend to be around 2g/day.  I started low, and was only able to get up to 700 or so mg in a day before it seemed that the higher doses were increasing my anxiety.  I may try again at some point, since it could have been just my instability causing anxiety that day.  I do know, though, that sources say it decreases norepinephrine in lower doses while increasing it in higher doses.

 

I've been taking it around 20 days, and I've settled to around 50-100mg a day, taken in the morning.  Taking more later in the day may have made it harder for me to fall sleep.  Again, I can't be sure.

At times when it kicks in I can feel a bit of a relaxing buzz for a short while (endorphins?)  I have noticed a decrease in suicidal thoughts and negative intrusive looping thoughts since starting.  It does seem to dampen anxiety symptoms too.

 

Anyway, if you're desperate, this stuff might be worth looking into

[ChessieCat]

I found a little bit about it here.  See posts following this one:

 

 

[Altostrata]

Merged similar topics.

[Ventus]

I have been trying l arginine myself to help sleep at night too. I find that it does reduce heart palpitations and reduce night sweats so when those withdrawalsymptomsare present it really helps me. I think it helps me sleep too but I am not sure. My problem is that it lowers blood pressure and one time when I was having heart related withdrawal symptoms I fainted. I am not sure if the l arginine was part of it or if I would have fainted anyway.

[getofflex]

I tried this 2.5 years ago.  I'm going to try it again, on those nights when I have early morning awakenings from the cortisol spike, along with L-Lysine, to calm me and help me go back to sleep.  I'll let you all know how it goes.   

[fullofdetermination]

Is it safe to take agmatine while on SSRIs?

 

I am still holding and tapering Valium first so it's going to be a while before I taper my AD I guess.

 

Can agmatine mess with serotonin levels? That would suck because too much serotonin is what caused my tinnitus (AD induced).

[papaloapan]

Of those who have had success with arginine, can you please tell me which brand you used? There are many brands, and we all know that there are some poor quality ones that don't work. Thanks.