nick1990: citalopram crap

[eymen23]

1 hour ago, nick1990 said:

It seems to have induced a minor wave. Eye twitching and fatigue. Feeling pretty low today, just very ho-hum. I know it'll pass but i wonder how much of this is WD related and how much is from the Migraine itself. It really took it out of me. 

 

Hi Nick,

 

Very glad to hear that overall things are going well. 

 

In regards to the piece I quoted above, I often have to remind myself that even healthy and otherwise happy people have bad days, and often without rhyme or reason. Migraines can be nasty and I know two friends that suffer with them badly. It’s not uncommon to feel wiped out and subdued afterwards. 

 

Good luck with the switch of generic and subsequent taper. I’m sure you have everything in hand, but we suggest transitioning slowly when changing generics. I switched generics abruptly after my GP prescribed a different sized tablet and it brought on some of the most difficult waves I’ve experienced. 

 

We suggest the following:

 

3/4 dose of A, 1/4 dose of B for 3-7 days

1/2 dose of A, 1/2 dose of B for 3-7 days

1/4 dose of A, 3/4 dose of B for 3-7 days

Continue with generic B only. 

[nick1990]

Well that was a wave after the migraine. Whether or not the two were related, I'm not sure. Still in it a little but i should note, its only been minor. By comparison to what I've been through its a 1/10 in severity.

 

Its always gutting to have a wave come up when you've been doing so much better, but i am grateful that im very functional and in control of my taper from here on out. 

 

The waves are so much more minor than they were two/three months ago. Its definitely a healing pattern but its slow. I can tell by the minor intensity of the waves that im not far off stability. 

 

This wave (and the last couple) have been a general depressed feeling. Odd thoughts of "lifes not worth it" , but these are very short and i don't take much notice of them. When im feeling fine, im feeling really good and content. 

 

This time of year is always hard in NZ. Winters coming, its grey and gloomy - Everyone hibernates, and i dont have a job - so im sitting around drifting through each day. Its enough to make anyone feel depressed. So some of these feelings are organic too. I need to find a temp job, make some money and then i want to go overseas for a bit and be in the sun  

 

Im trying to not think to much about how much more tapering is ahead of me, but it gets me down at times. 

Not so much the tapering, i dont mind that. In fact, i enjoy the life it brings back into me. More the potential discomfort it can bring with it. Im just going to go slow and take lots of holds, and im hopeful that ill be able to get off this drug without too many intense waves and go back to living my life fully and have tapering as a background noise. 

 

So im still on 22mg of generic #1 which has past it expiry date, however i dont think the date makes a difference until years out. These expired 1 month ago, I have about 3 months left of this batch so will plan on doing the crossover taper in about 2 months to generic #2 . After that i can continue tapering slowly with lots of holds and living my life fully. Im looking forward to it ! 

 

[nick1990]

I knew I’d get a little bit of anxiety from

this . @Altostrata @brassmonkey And any other mods . I’m doing pretty well , in a little (minor 1.5/10) wave at the moment , using my original generic citalopram of 22mg - they HAVE expired . End of April was the expiry date . This shouldn’t be an issue should it ? I’ve searched the net long and hard and found nothing to suggest that dates on these drugs mean anything more than a bit of FDA formality . I’m nearly stable but not quite as still having minor waves and windows . 

 

So ideally I’d like to wait another month or so until switching generic , but if these expired drugs aren’t doing their job then ofcoarse I should cross over .

 

what are your thoughts ?

thank you for your time .

[brassmonkey]

A friend of mine posted a meme to FB a while back that showed a picture of a package of 20,000 year old Sea Salt.  The store was going to trash it because the package had an expiration date of last week.   I'm not saying that Citalopram will last 20,000 years, but a couple of weeks past the date isn't an issue.  The US military stockpiles medications including ADs in case there is a shortage.  Their requirement is that they maintain 90% of their potency after 10 years.  For some "bio based" medications such as insulin the  expiration date is very important, but for many others it is mainly a marketing tool to sell more product.  The decision to use the medication is entirely up to you, but if you're not having any problems with it, a few weeks isn't going to make any difference.

 

To be clear to other readers we are talking about tablets here.  If you are using a commercially prepared liquid or are making your own liquid, that's a whole other story.

[nick1990]

Hopefully no one will be taking citalopram in 20,000 years Tom . Hahaha! 

 

My intuition tells me exactly what you have said . Just wanted to have it cleared up so I don’t need to sit here worrying about it . Thank you for your input my friend . 

 

[Altostrata]

How much of your current citalopram stock do you have?

[nick1990]

Hey @Altostrata 

 

still have about 3.5 months supply left . So was thinking of doing the switch 2.5 months from now and then having a month switch over time .

 

thanks  

Nick

[jozeff]

Hi Nick,

 

You can always keep your citalopram in de fridge or freezer. This is probably an issue for bio based meds like brass monkey said and for complex proteins that can denaturate. 

 

For simpler, dry meds like pills that are sealed the expiration date shouldn't be an issue that much.

This has a lot to do with disclaimer. The industry wants to play it very safe....

 

They also like it a lot to sell you some new medication when your old stuff is "expired". Believe me, there are some dark forces going on in that world that have a lot to do with $$.

 

I worked in analytical testing for pharmaceutical companies a couple of years and I literally never ever found a pill that was below the level of active ingredient even after years.

 

I know this because they keep expired batches for testing and practice. As long a you keep it dry, cool and dark I would take my current strip of citalopram 20 years from now.....let's hope that is not necessary!!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[nick1990]

Wow Jozeff!

 

I really couldn’t have asked for a better source of information . 

Thank you mate !

 

how are you doing man ? 

The micro taper coming along ok ? 

Remeber , when not fully stable , even tiny drops can produce rather unpleasant symptoms . Hence me being so adamant to only resume tapering once stable .

 

cheers mate 

Nick

[jozeff]

Hey Nick,

 

I'm doing reasonably well. My son is 5 weeks old and I started a micro taper 1% per week. After 3 drops I really felt very low so I'm holding at 17.47 mg citalopram right now (coming from 18....). This is gonna take a long time.

 

It could have a lot to do with my lack of sleep of course. That ramped up my symptoms quite a bit.

 

I'm planning on reducing 1% per week from now on and see how that works out.

 

How is your reducing in meds going man?

 

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[nick1990]

Oh yes of course , congratulations on your son!

 

yeh fair enough, I’d say your lack of sleep may not be helping the situation - just take it slow - once things settle you should be able to taper more easily. 

 

I generally do 1.25% a week for 4 weeks totalling 5% followed by a few weeks hold.

 

It might take a while to be off COMPLETELY  BUT, it won’t take too long to get to a low dose . Then you can slowly work your way off the last of it without dealing with the effects the drug had on you at a higher dose. 

 

My main bit of advice is wait till your stable before resuming tapering . And listen to your body throughout . If you have symptoms , then hold for a while - it’s not a race . 

 

Cheers

Nick 

[nick1990]

Oh and haven’t reduced further since later last year . Just wanting to have a rest for a month or two before switching to other generic and then resuming . 

 

 

[Tom37]

Your doing so well Nick....everything your doing is exactly how it should be done. No point rushing to start again if your not quite stable. I think maybe only people who have been through a severe/bad crash with truly understand the reason for needing to do it like you are. No one for one second would ever want to go through that twice.

[nick1990]

Hey @Tom37

 

Thanks for your kind words mate. Yeh, im pretty chuffed with myself, even though i often don't feel like that - ive done pretty well so far. This process is NOT easy. Its just not. BUT it can be very do-able, without interfering with life too much. 
Im sorry that you are in such a tough spot right now, i really am sorry. But know that most of us have been there Tom, and we've made it through it.

 

As someone said to me back in 2015, i'll say to you - Tom, you are in the thick of it right now. There isn't much to do other than wait for it to pass. And it will pass. During this time you should try and practice self soothing as much as possible. 

I remember when i've been feeling soooo terrible that self soothing really helps. Just lying down, hot water bottle, warm tea - calming music, warm baths with epsom salts, deep breathing and practicing mindfulness and acceptance . 

 

Its just another wave Tom, it will pass and you'll go back to feeling well again. 

As for it cropping up after feeling so much better. It happens. It doesn't mean much, other than you're in a bad wave. Healing is not linear. Id bet that in a few weeks time you'll feel better than you did a when you were at your best last month. Stability will happen, its just frustratingly slow. Remember , this isn't you. Its just the drugs and it will pass. One day you'll look back on these troubling times and not even remember what it felt like. 

 

[nick1990]

Hello all,

 

Been a few weeks so thought id check in

 

All in all I've been doing really well. I still seem to be in this wave/window pattern but the windows are completely fine, as in feel great. The waves .. well they're getting close to being non existent. They are very mild, but still some fatigue, grumpiness and frustration as well as lots of vivid dreams. 

Im in a little wave right now, but man its only noticeable because i have so much free time on my hands. 

 

Pretty close to being back to myself i feel..

 

cheers

Nick

 

 

[brassmonkey]

Great update Nick.  Hows the tiny house coming?

[nick1990]

Hey Tom ,

 

yeh it’s coming along slowly . Just pacing myself - but should be done by NZ summer time . It’s really cool watching something you build yourself come together.  Plus I’m learning heaps , as I’m definitely not a builder haha 

[jozeff]

Great news Nick!

 

Still taking 22 mg?

 

Good to hear your waves are getting less intense or even disappear.

 

Keep up your good mood.

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[nick1990]

Hi all,

 

just wanted to note I have had an intense abdominal migraine today . Woke up feeling a bit anxious , got shivers and super fatigue and then lay in bed to try and sleep and just projectile vomited.

 

Feel so much better for vomiting. No sign of a headache with this one which is nice - I’ve been doing regular physio stretches to prevent tension headaches and they seem to be working a treat .

 

I don’t know how much of this is contributed to WD but I used to have these all the time when I was a child and they seem to be making a recurrence as I get lower on the drug. 

 

One question for all you chemistry whizzes out there ,

i vomited 3 hours after taking citalopram - I assume that would have been enough time for it to be absorbed into the blood stream ? 

[brassmonkey]

Shouldn't cause a problem.  Most would have been absorbed and what is left would have moved out of the stomach and would be absorbed further down the line.

[nick1990]

Thanks Tom .

 

Well I’m still not quite right - looking back on it , seems more like a virus or some sort of gastroenteritis. Nausea, vomiting, shivers , fatigue and headache.

Not vomiting any more but still feeling nauseous and fatigued. 

 

Seems a lot of people around here have had it recently .. 

 

[Tom37]

Hope your feeling better mate. Plenty of bugs around at the moment and I’m sure if it hasn’t passed it won’t be far away.

 

Hope you are stabilising nicely and not far away from tapering again but from following you on here, I know you won’t start until your good and ready. 

 

Hope your getting through winter ok as know it’s not your favourite time or year.

 

Look after yourself.

 

 

[nick1990]

Hi all. 

 

Haven't posted in a few weeks. Overall, I've been doing pretty well ! Had a good few solid weeks of feeling mostly normal, very functional and able to do lots of things. 

Possibly overdid the physical aspect of it all and have been in a little wave for a few days. 

 

The variation from baseline to wave is pretty minimal. Started with little eye twitches and then some came some minor depressed/anxious thoughts/feelings. Nothing too bad though. More annoying than anything. Bit of fatigue here and there and lots of dreams. 

Seems less significant than the last wave i had, so all in all - wave intensity 1.5/10 on the worst day. 

 

Im becoming conscious of letting the symptoms be. Not trying to do anything, no resistance, no spiralling thoughts, just accept and float with it, until it passes. It is making it a lot easier. We are soooo conditioned to fight and rebel against any discomfort - but its not our natural way. This is where the suffering arises. Once we can really just trust in the process of it all, the process of nature - everything changes.  Not saying I'm a master, but its something I'm working on and i do still have to catch myself quite often when overthinking etc. 

 

So yeh, all in all - waves slowly getting milder and baseline improving . Stability isn't far off, i can tell - but i also have to remember I'm still taking a fair chunk of Citalopram (even though 1/3 of my original dose), so not going to suddenly feel amazing once stable. Really looking forward to slowly tapering. I know thats the way forward for me. 

 

Im off to Australia in 2 weeks for about 10 days. Going campervan travelling, nature exploring and some surfing of coarse. 

If I'm not on here for the next couple weeks, ill update once I'm back home.

 

Hugs to all. 

Nick

[brassmonkey]

Have a great trip and forget about us until you get back.

[nick1990]

Hey @brassmonkey and all others !

 

Recently returned from my trip to Australia. It was beautiful. 

Had a dew days of feeling a bit exhausted etc, but that was all part of the time difference and staying up really late doing things. 

 

We took a camper van along the coast and stayed at some beautiful spots, surfed the freezing water and ate heaps of yummy food.

It was just me and my friend . It was so nice being with her and seeing her in Aus (She moved over from NZ 4 or so years ago) .. and oh man i can definitely see why she made the move. Anyway , we both love each other a lot (we used to date for a few years) and we still have strong feelings for one another. 

 

I kind of made up my mind that I'm going to move over there next year. Be closer to her and to be close to the surf. Its a cool culture over there - a lot more mentally stimulating than sleepy old NZ.  Obviously the thought has brought about some anxiety ( "i cant do this, I'm not able to because of the WD thing") but bugger that ! I see no real reason why not to do it and why i couldn't be completely successful in my tapering (SLOWLY) over there. Its a new environment yes, it will create challenges yes.. But to me, i see it as either sitting in NZ, waiting for time to pass as i get off this drug, or actually go and do what my heart tells me, move over, give it a go and see what happens. 

 

 

Anyway, in regards to the Citalopram situation as of now, i am still at 22mg. Im having a mini wave at the moment, but thats to be expected after a big trip, time differences, late nights, surfing and of course the emotional aspect of leaving and coming back to sleepy old NZ where nothing happens.  When I'm not having a mini wave (which seems to be purely neuro-emotional and some fatigue) I'm feeling fine. 

 

Im just chilling for a few weeks until i start to make the switch over to another generic Citalopram. Im nervous about it - and also just really looking forward to getting it out of the way !  I honestly believe if it wasn't for this planned switch i would have resumed tapering already and probably been feeling better than i am now, but thats the way things go. And don't worry, i know to gradually switch over and not do it all at once (ill probably do a 6 week gradual switch)..

 

Just one question to all the chemist whizz's out there - i have a few options for generic's , is there any benefit with going with one over another? kind of a strange question i know, but for instance the one my brother takes ( yes, he too was put on it as a teen for mild anxiety and is coming off slowly with little difficulty) has a PILL WEIGHT of like 37mg per 20mg of ACTIVE INGREDIENT - whereas the one that i am currently taking has a PILL WEIGHT of 18mg per 20mg of ACTIVE INGREDIENT. 

I was planning on just switching to that same generic as he is on as it is subsidised by the government here and only costs like $5 for 3 months supply.  Could this significant PILL WEIGHT variation create an issue when switching and am i better to find one that has a similar PILL WEIGHT to my current generic ??

 

Appreciate your responses in advance

 

All the best, 

Nick

 

 

[brassmonkey]

Nick-- I think you had too good at time in OZ.  because the numbers you mention are not physically possible. "a PILL WEIGHT of 18mg per 20mg of ACTIVE INGREDIENT. "  Mgpw can never be less than mgai.  It can be equal to, it is is pure drug, but never less than.

 

It's all a matter of how your body reacts to each generic.  Some people can tolerate one brand and not another.  the only sure way to know is to see what happens.  The differences in mgpw shouldn't cause a problem as long as you calculate the correct mgpw for the mgai you are after.  The cross taper will take care of the rest.

 

Your trip to OZ sounds like it was wonderful.  As for the future plans, YES.

[nick1990]

Hmmm well that’s a little concerning @brassmonkey Cause I’ve just weighed them again and they come up as 0.185g on both of my scales . These have been the tablets I have been tapering with the whole way down . And they have always weighed 0.185g per tablet . 

 

In regards to seeing whether or not I can tolerate the new generic , what would be my plan of action if I don’t tolerate the new  one ? 

They literally don’t make them anymore  and am on my last box and a half of pills .

thanks all ! 

[eymen23]

On 8/22/2019 at 7:10 AM, nick1990 said:

Hmmm well that’s a little concerning @brassmonkey Cause I’ve just weighed them again and they come up as 0.185g on both of my scales.

 

Nick,

 

0.185g is 185mg and not 18mg, hence the confusion. 

[brassmonkey]

The whole purpose of the cross taper you are planning is to let your body adjust to the new pills in a slow and controlled manner.  There usually isn't a problem, but we do have some members who have had problems with some generics so we have to bring it up as something to watch out for.  It would make things a bit sticky if there is no other brand of pill available, but I wouldn't be concerned.

 

Eymen  pointed out what the disconnect is with the pill weights.  Hope that makes sense.  You will have to keep track of the differences in dose weight between the two as you make the crossover.  You will be taking twice as much of your brothers pills than of your own to get an equal amount of the active ingredient.

[nick1990]

Thanks heaps Eymen and Tom ! 

That’s definitely all clears things up  thanks so much ! 

[Tom37]

Good luck on the transition. I’m sure you will do just fine and if on the off chance you do have minor problems you have the know how to handle it anyway.

[nick1990]

Thanks @Tom37 means a lot  

 

 

[nick1990]

Hey all,

 

Just wanted to note I've been in a bit of a wave for the last week or so. Its been at that level where its been hard to discern if its a wave or just normal life reactions to things going on. 

 

But I'm pretty certain its a wave. 

On the grand scale of WD its almost not worth reporting on here as I'm fully functional, eating well, sleeping well etc.

 

Its almost solely neuro-emotions.  Alternating from a general feeling of melancholy to a slight uncomfortable anxiety about life. I've had some split second feelings of "whats the point in all this", but they are very short lived and quickly fade. 

Also, some varying levels of frustration and anger, nothing intense, and they too come and go. 

 

I have also had some weird existential/ nihilistic thoughts too which are always quite confronting. I feel it too is part of the wave. 

 

Im sleeping super solidly (as always) around 10-11 hours a night, but still feel quite fatigued at times. 

 

I was really hoping by now, 11 months since i last made a reduction that i would be feeling 100%.  

I am sooooo much better than i was 5-6 months ago, but still feel like my nervous system is a little sensitive. 

Do you think once i have switched over to the other generic, i should be able to resume tapering slowly? Or do i need to wait for all waves to stop entirely?

 

I still plan on moving to Aus next year to be closer to my (sort of ) girlfriend,  and want to be in a good place to do so, but ideally id like to continue slowly tapering.

 

Thanks for your help

 

Nick 

 

[brassmonkey]

Give the cross taper a few weeks to stabilize then I think it's time to get on with your taper.

[Tom37]

Nick,

 

How do you feel now compared to when you started your taper again after your crash? I guess if your feeling as good or better then it could be time after your transition to give it another go. Just make sure your mentally prepared to get going again after what you have been through.

 

Good luck!

[nick1990]

Here’s a bit of a question friends .

Im constantly pretty fatigued. Not to the point where I can’t do much , more I just get tired really easily . I’m also needing to sleep heaps . Like 10 hours plus a day . I have a lot of swings in mood as in I’m grumpy one minute and then fine the next. Head feels kind of fuzzy ish , plus getting a fair few headaches . 

Could this all be a side effect of the drug ? Over all the years taking the drug without tapering , I swear things weren’t as rough - it’s hard for me to know , is this minor, lingering WD or is it the drug ?