Jump to content
nick1990

nick1990: Citalopram crap

Recommended Posts

nick1990

I started with magnesium yesterday. Last night and again tonight when lying down on bed/ couch,I get these very infrequent crushing/ panic feeling in the pit of my stomach.it lasts about 1 second and then stops but it is quite intense. It feels like the start of a massive panic attack but doesnt eventuate into anything.Could the mag be causing it ?

Share this post


Link to post
KarenB

Hey I just started mag too.  How much are you taking?  I'm starting at about 25mg magnesium citrate.  I don't know if your feelings are due to mag or not, sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

I think im taking a similar dose KarenB. Didnt take it today do gna see how I feel. Dont think I noticed any improvement from taking it though. Been feeling more like my old self over the last few days which makes a nice change. Getting excited about things and focusing more on things like I did pre- withdrawal days. Still having morning anxiety but it varies. Today was like a 2/10 intensity.. this healing proccess certainly isnt as clear cut and linear as I hoped it to be.

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Did you notice an improvement Karen ?

Share this post


Link to post
KarenB

Haven't noticed an improvement yet - but just day 2 of a very low dose.  Guess when I build it up a bit over a few more days that will do it.  It's also a bit tricky to tell because I'm slowly coming out of a wave anyway.  I want it to help me sleep better.  I might re-read the mag thread tomorrow.

 

Probably a good idea to wait and see if those different feelings go away, then you could try mag again sometime later.   
 

 

.. this healing proccess certainly isnt as clear cut and linear as I hoped it to be. 

 

I reckon once I worked that out and accepted it, it made a huge difference to my ability to cope.  This is why I like making graphs.  The up-down lines are actually on an overall upward trend - which can be hard to remember when in a wave.

 

Glad you are still having better moments.

Karen 

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

hmm interestingly those sensations did go away after stopping it :/

Share this post


Link to post
KarenB

Just a thought, what type of magnesium are you taking?  Some types are gentler on the gut than others.  In the mag thread there is a good explanation of which types are good for what etc, and different effects (good and bad) that some people had from them. 

From that thread:

If you take too much magnesium, you will know because you'll get stomach cramps or diarrhea. Reduce the amount you're taking if these things occur.

 

 

NOTE: Magnesium is more effective taken in divided doses throughout the day. There's no need to take one large daily dose, you'll absorb it poorly. You might find you can take 50mg or 100mg magnesium 4 times a day or so and it will help you relax. Build up slowly.

 

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Thanks KarenB :) will have a good dig through that Mag thread

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

I need a bit of help guys. I really would/do appreciate your responses so much .


 


Not in a good state of mind today.  This is quite a difficult thing to put into words but ill try my best to make it simple to follow. 


 


Before i went into withdrawal, for about 5-6 years prior i would feel CRAP for no reason every once in a blue moon (At this point id been on the frug for about 5 years already)


A kind of foreign depression/anxiety to me. Never had it before the drug or during my first few years on it. Im almost certain now that it was the drug causing this. 


 


Today i had a horrible depression/anxiety/dullness come over me while i was out having a dive for some fish with my youngest brother. (Similar in nature to the pre withdrawal depression/anxiety i would get over the years)


I have had it a few times in the last 5 weeks. (Since up dosing) It literally feels like I AM DRUGGED . Im pretty sure i didn't have this feeling during my acute phase of WD. 


 


Now this is the part that I'm very confused/torn about.. My withdrawal symptoms have almost ALL been Anxiety/Panic Cortisol rushes early in the day. Since up dosing nearly 7 weeks ago this has lessened in intensity and frequency with good windows in between. Im still getting waves of anxiety/panic but they have certainly lessened and life is starting to clear up.  So it seems to me that this depression/anx over the last few weeks is being caused by up-dosing the drug? Therefore that has made me more eager to begin tapering soon. Has anyone seen this happen or had it happen to themselves ? How do you react to this dilemma ? 

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Please really need some help here guys. Pretty scared at the moment . Thank you <3

Share this post


Link to post
Fresh

Hi nick ,  7 weeks isn't long to recover from the crash you had.  It's often like that in recovery - one symptom

improves and another gets more annoying.  It's nothing to be afraid of . . . it's just how recovery is.

 

I'd wait at least another month before starting to taper  , and be aware these episodes of feeling depressed/drugged

will come and go.

 

Best wishes ,  Fresh

Share this post


Link to post
KarenB

Yup, we do get waves of different symptoms, though they sure aren't nice when you're in them.  Right when we need good perspective is often when it's hardest to get.  Is better to hear some other people's perspective and try to put that into your head.

 

This is the time for extra soothing and self-care, and possibly some distractions.  Our NZ sun is shining right now - got any grass to lie on there?  (Not sure if they have grass in Auckland ;) ).  Good food too.  And if that magnesium is too rough on your system, maybe try an epsom-salt bath.  

 

I'm sorry it's so crappy right now for you - keep checking in here so you don't feel alone.

Hugs,

KarenB       

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

a bit of grass here in AK KarenB. haha..  I do love sitting out in the sun on the grass it feels great.

 

Today was rough. Maybe the roughest since up-dosing. Pretty bad depressed/anxiety feeling again and i just felt absolutely hopeless and in utter despair. Its really really freaky at the time. Cried sooo much after getting back from work. I have a saw jaw from frowning for so long whilst crying . lol.

 

Do you think its fair to say that my up-dose hasn't worked? I really thought i was on track to recovering since updosing 8 weeks ago now. Longer, clearer windows, less waves. Less intense waves too. But this wave that has hit me over the last few days has been pretty darn bad. 

 

Is there still hope for this up-dose to take hold? I have heard of a couple of cases of updosing/reinstating taking 4 months..

 

I need re-assurance .

 

Nick <3

Share this post


Link to post
KarenB

Sometimes I wish there was a 'Mod, please' button on here for when I feel a little out of my depth.  But here's my opinion, for what it's worth...

 

I think reinstating is always a gamble, and yours was done three months after a drop so it's chances of working were less again.  That probably means you need to hold this same dose until your CNS finds it's way to stability.  Going up or down now will probably just rock the boat again. 

 

Probably not what you want to hear when you're in such a bad wave, and probably you feel even less like hearing me say 'it'll pass...'  (Though it will :ph34r:

 

While you are in the worst of it, can you build a picture in your head of the strong core inside of you?.  Because it's still there, even when you can't feel it, it is still there.  It's who you are, it's what's keeping you going, and it cannot be dented by anything.  Your emotions can be crumbling all around you, you can feel utterly hopeless, you can be losing all the hope you ever had, but if you wait, wait, you will come through - and that strong core of you will still be there.  You are riding out the storm right now and it's hard to see two steps in front of yourself so just hunker down.

 

Wishing peace for you,

KarenB

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

KarenB I appreciate your quick reply and honesty. Not exactly what I was hoping to hear but I guess its ok :) when I hear I need to wait to stabilize I think in terms of years :( I hope this isnt true. Do you think that as I only dropped 20% it would be a quicker stabilizing period than if I had CT'd? I hope im looking at week/months time span as apposed to years :(

Share this post


Link to post
brassmonkey

Hi Nick--  Karen has been giving you some great advice/support, there isn't much I can add.  Any updose is a crap shoot, there are no guarantees that it will work and when they do it is frustratingly slow. They are very unpredictable because there are so many variables involved which is why we don't recommend them all that often.  Once a persons CNS is destabilized by too large or too quick a drop it can take several months for things to stabilize, sometimes updosing will help but some times it just pushes things even further out of balance.  By stabilizing I don't mean the absence of symptoms either, rather that the symptoms have settled into a steady state in their level, something that I refer to as WDnormal.  The relative size of the dose change has no real bearing on the length of time it takes to stabilize some people have recovered in a few weeks from a CT while others have taken over a year to stabilize from a 2.5% change.  The one thing we do know is that it frequently can take years to recover from a CT.

 

Stabilization and WD are about as nonlinear as you can get.  There were times during my taper that I was having symptom changes every few minutes from 10 to 1 and back again.   Also there is no single set of symptoms that these drugs will throw at you, it will be physical for a while, then anxiety/depression then all three, then none.  Another reason WD is so frustrating.  We have to learn patience because we're in it for the long haul and there is no way out. We have to learn acceptance because WD will throw everything there is at us and all we can do is take it.  We have to learn self soothing because there is nothing else we can do to make ourselves feel better.  Any other drug, any supplement, they have all been tried and once in a while they will help someone but usually they do nothing at best and cause much more trouble at worst.

 

Magnesium is one of the few that helps some people, but each persons reaction is different so the outcome is unpredictable.  We generally recommend it because it frequently helps but must be tried in small doses to gage the persons reaction first.  Then the person has to monitor their usage, because like everything else in WD it can turn on you in a second.

 

For right now you need to wait it out until you stabilize back on the 45mg.  Because your bad reaction the your last drop has sensitized your CNS it is going to take a while, rough guess two more months.  Once you're stable though it is not a good idea to immediately start to taper as that will destabilize you again.  So once stable you will need to wait a while longer to regain strength in your CNS.  Only then can you start your taper.

 

It's an ugly, frustrating, painful business that we have to survive minute by minute at times, but we can't micro focus on the symptoms because it will make us nutz.

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

You guys are legends. Really. Your responses are so informative and i am so thankful for your time. 

 

Trying a small amount of Magnesium for a few days to see how that goes.

 

It is crazy how after these waves have passed i feel "Normal" again.  They're just so dam overwhelming - Being a true hypochondriac and an over thinking sort of having mind doesn't help much .. ahhhh.. 

 

Anyway - thanks again for the time you have all given me so far. Once i stabilize i shouldn't be as much of a pain :) 

 

Having a Yoga date tonight at the local sailing club down the road - with an American Girl :D

 

<3

Share this post


Link to post
KarenB

Ooh, an Americal Girl.  Your date could be just like on tv... :P, but of course you'd need an american accent too.

 

Have fun. 

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Hey everyone. Finally coming out of this 4 day wave. Its been gnarly but better today. There was somethng i forgot to add in my intro .

 

When i went CT off Citalopram and swapped to Mirtazapine for a few days in 09 i was also prescribed Valium to get over the anxiety. I only took it 3 maybe 4 times during acute WD. Then stopped. This wouldnt make any difference to my Cit taper now would it ? 6 years later..?

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Hey all. Window time :) Question about smoking. 

 

I know cigs kill you and I'm not addicted - but i love having a cig every now and then . Is it likely significantly detrimental to my withdrawal?

 

Also - i have a form of "OCD" . Obsessive rather than compulsive. It seems to have gotten a lot easier to manage after learning coping techniques and it doesn't really stand in the way of my life. 

 

I do however suffer from guilt/OCD past mistake issues that have gotten worse since being on the drug. The feeling i have about a certain event is irrational . I know that. But it feels as though my cognition is not functioning properly. Like i can't see logically. When i first hit WD i could think a lot clearer about the event and it was not consuming as it now is. 

 

Do you think as my dose goes down i could start to see things in a more rational manner? I don't think its the OCD to blame. because I've tried CBT and talk therapy over the last few years and it doesn't work. 

 

regards, Nick

Share this post


Link to post
brassmonkey

Hey Nick--  one of the hallmarks of WD is referred to as "ruminating thoughts".  Your mind digs up all the dirt from your past and forces you to relive it and twist it and relive it, and twist it even more and relive it....... It will do the same with the good stuff too, turning it against you.  Trying to get it to shut up is a monumental task and trying to not let it make you feel bad is even harder.  What I have learned to do is  a variant of AAF (Acknowledge, Accept, Float) Acknowledge that the thoughts are real and the events happened though not necessarily as you are currently remembering them.  Accept that the event is over and done with and that you have thought it through many times and have come to a conclusion that you can live with, and verbally tell then such.  But instead of floating off and continuing with life, change the channel and distract yourself any way possible as you get on with life.  It takes some practice to get it down, but I find that it really helps, and yes as your dose decreases your rational mind will show itself more and more. 

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Thanks BrassMonkey. 

 

Ruminating thoughts have been plaguing me for the last 5 or so years. I seems like they began to get worse once i reached Tolerance on Cit. Maybe SSRI Tolerance replicates WD symptoms??  And i thought i was getting sicker and sicker and it had nothing to do with taking drugs.. haha what a fool. 

 

Any way ... 

 

Brain Fog and a constant "Spaced Out" feeling is nailing me at the moment. I literally feel drunk and like im in a dream most of the time , and it seems to have got a lot worse since up-dosing.  I do not feel real. My emotions are also slowly fading away a bit. No real excitement and cant be bothered with things. I push my self to though. Im sleeping well still, eating well and exercising regularly... 

 

If a slow taper is done correctly once stabilised - Does this "Drugged" feeling lift over time??? Is that common amongst steady tapers? ? Its really not pleasant . Im starting to think that Up-dosing was not a good idea. But whats done is done and to be honest - I have learnt a LOT over the last few months which im sure will help me in the future. Slow and Steady :) Looking forward to stabilising and getting this poison out of my system .. 

Share this post


Link to post
KarenB

Congrats on surviving that last wave :).  You have a lot of strength.

 

Yeah, updosing is always an iffy decision to make.  It's good to hear you sounding positive about the process you've gone through with it though - the understandings you've gained will help you to keep going.  You are right that stabilising is your main goal right now.

 

And yes the drugged feeling does lift as time goes on.  I haven't had it for a few months now, but I had it really strongly in my first two or so months of w/d.  Have you had a read of this topic about brain fog?    http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7043-brain-fog-blank-mind-comprehension-cognitive-and-memory-problems/

 

Hugs,

KarenB

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Hey KarenB , thanks for that :) na I will check it out though. Just a quick update, feeling way better over the last few dAys and today I can 98 % say that I feel back to my normal pre WD self. Im trying not to let myself get too hopeful about it incase I slip in to another wave ~ but it does feel pretty good.

Share this post


Link to post
KarenB

:D Yay windows!!  98% I am so jealous.  Just keep it gentle, keep up the self-care...

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Im about to go and get my new prescription for Citalopram and this came up on there website. -

 

 

Citalopram 20 mg tablets Change in funded brand of citalopram from Arrow-Citalopram to PSM Citalopram

A decision has been made by PHARMAC to change the subsidised (funded) brand of citalopram from Arrow-Citalopram (supplied by Actavis) to PSM Citalopram, supplied by API Consumer Brands (“API”). The change will start to happen from 1 November 2015.

 
I should still be able to get the arrow brand - which is what i have been taking for years. If i was to swap straight to the new PSM brand could that be risky? I really don't need this sh*t right now . . 

Share this post


Link to post
Fresh

Hi Nick ,  yes , some people have problems changing brands.   Some don't.  

You might do the switch by taking half/half for a couple of weeks to smooth over any rough patches.

Share this post


Link to post
nz11

Waiting to stabilise then planning on 5% cuts with 2 month holds. 

i think thats an excellent plan.

Wishing you strength.

 

Hey Nick i notice you are a kiwi have you considered writing a letter to CARM in Dunedin if you feel you are not happy in any way with the drug you have been given and have suffered adverse effects or not informed of this by the doc.

You can also write to the HDC.

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Well apparently Pharmac have 10,000 boxes left in their warehouse down the road. So i should be able to see out my entire taper staying on this generic brand.  

 

NZ11 i will certainly do so, however at this stage i am just focusing on living my life as normal as possible and don't want to get to involved in this whole thing. Im not trying to run away from it - i just want to focus on healing myself and getting off this crap for now - living my life in the best way i can. But once this is all over - trust me i will certainly be writing some letters and spreading the word on this terrible stuff.

 

Quick update;  Anxiety has mostly gone now, some slight depression popping its head from time to time. Still sleeping just as well as ever. The OCD ruminating/regret/guilt over childhood experience has been pretty bad and making me feel completely worthless as a human but its so dam illogical that i know its drug related. .  It is difficult at times though.. It seems to have really reared its head since up dosing - as i could see a lot more logically when i had lowered the dose. 

 

Still some cloudiness/ out of it feeling. But that too has only appeared since updosing. Felt way clearer too on lower dose. 

 

Also have more fatigue, can't exercise as long, tired most of the time since updosing. I could run for miles and surf for hours after dropping dose. But since going back up - its more limited. However, I'm starting to stabilize which is great :)

 

I seriously can not wait to get to lower doses of this drug and eliminate it completely from my body. I certainly am not planning on rushing and i know it will take me a couple of years but i think my life is going to get seriously good as this drug gets removed. 

 

Much love and hugs to you all. 

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Hey yall. I have been having some pretty bad pain inside my ribs and lower chest on the right side for the last few days. It sometime hits toward my back too. It hurts more if I sit or move in awkward positions which suggests to me it may be muscular. Went to doc todAy and she had a bit of a prod around and no noticeable discomfort. Getting some blood work done tmrw . I dont think its WD relAted but it could be I suppose.. im worried its something to do with my liver :/

Share this post


Link to post
nz11

Nick sorry to hear of this new issue.

 

Been reading Breggin this evening and what he said made me laugh..."During withdrawal from psychiatric drugs the best rule is to expect the unexpected..." Pretty well sums it up really.

 

"Any adverse effect on the body brain and mind that occurs during withdrawal from a psychiatric drug should immediately be suspected as originating from the withdrawal."

 

Hope the discomfort passes soon.

Share this post


Link to post
MollyN

Hey Nick, just read through your journal and wanted to congratulate you on the insight you have regarding your mind/body experience - nice one! 

 

I actually laughed out right out loud as you described your pretty awesome life surfing/friends/family/travel/sport/adventure/more travel... and then the question: do you think this deadbeat job would be making life harder.... ummmm.... well, I would just say that it doesn't appear to align with your values :)

 

I'm so happy to read you survived the wave in Oct and I hope are able to enjoy the summer!

Share this post


Link to post
nick1990

Thanks NZ11 and Fresh :)

 

MollyN - Thankyou . Certainly starting to improve a lot. Still symptomatic but nothing like before. The depression waves aren't very nice. Its very foreign to me . But i can see that easing off too. Just going to wait it out over the peak of summer and have a good time. Working as a surf instructor over the summer. Pretty nice job really :D

Then after summer I'm going to continue with a slow background taper :)

 

How are you doing Molly? It seems like those 50% drops you've been doing might be a bit too BIG lol. Finding it easier now that your reducing less?

Share this post


Link to post
MollyN

Brilliant!! Surf instructor sounds like the perfect gig for you :)

 

Yes well, learnt the lesson on the 50% drops(a few times) - this time I didn't even risk 10%.. a modest drop from 5ml to 4.8.. only been 4 days so probably too early to tell, but I definitely would have experienced withdrawal symptoms by now if I wasn't coping with it - mostly indicated by sudden rages ... so unappealing!

 

I must be one of the least patient people out so if I can learn to taper slowly there is hope for everyone xxx oh and re. the supplier change to your prescription - my blood temp dropped a bit reading that, since I did (unknowingly at the time) experience the fall out from a manufacturer change, I'm so pleased they have enough to see you through, it's such an unfair change to have to adapt to for you.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Hey Nick - 

 

Wow, you seem to be doing just fine, waiting to stabilise, and planning the positives in your life.

 

I agree with BrassMonkey - I think what you are calling "OCD" is more about rumination and neuro-emotion.

 

Rumination is descended from that problem solving capacity which saves our lives.  There is a flood between here and my home, but I must get the children safe - the brain kicks in and spins and whirrs and works on solving the problem.  There's probably a limbic/emotional/cortisol component to that, too.

 

But when the problem is unsolvable, like "what I said to her that night," or "I shouldn't have done that," - the rumination muscle kicks in - and the problem is unsolvable.  But the rumination muscle doesn't know that, so it keeps nagging and spinning and whirring - trying to achieve a resolution to what it thinks is solvable.  But it's not.

 

Add to that - Neuro-emotion of withdrawal, and those little events of "he said, she said," or "Why did I?" become a giant feedback loop - all the more powerful because there is a seed of truth in there, and the case that Mr. Rumination and Ms Neuro-Emotion makes - feed on each other and you believe them, while they spin and weave until what is going on in your head has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on right now.

 

Here are my thoughts on OCD (I don't believe in it, exactly - I believe in behaviours, not disorders):

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3882-ocd-obsessive-thoughts-compulsive-behaviors/?p=196417

 

My other thought is this - if you are having symptoms, waves of withdrawal, you might consider your diet.  While I deeply respect your choice to a vegetarian lifestyle - kind to animals, the planet, each other, etc. - it is a greater challenge to rebuild a brain without the aminos, minerals, B12 and EFA's found in animal products.  It's not impossible, just more difficult.  If you choose to continue a vege lifestyle, you might consider upping the coconut oil and fish oil - just for while you are in withdrawal - to smooth those neurons a bit while you are healing.

 

I haven't heard you say anything about fish oil - does your vege lifestyle preclude using this supplement?  I tried Flax Seed Oil for about a year - and found that it took something like 36 flax capsules to be equivalent to 4 fish oil capsules.  Hmmm.  I wasn't up to an extra 36 capsules a day,  You may have flax seed in raw food smoothies, etc - but you are healing a brain here - you will be helped by it, but it may take more than a tablespoon of flax seed a day!  (how about a cup?)

 

And a last comment on magnesium.  I believe (this is a belief, I don't know this) that initial reactions to magnesium (which you had) are an indicator of a deficiency, and it takes time to get your body used to operating again with it.  Magnesium is involved in hundreds of cascades around the body, and your body might go out of whack if it is deficient and finally getting what it needs.  So - as Karen said - start low - and persist, let your body get used to it for a few weeks before increasing it.  And be patient with "weirdness" around it.  

 

Yes, some people in the throes of withdrawal react strongly to it, and on top of their symptoms, it is too much to bear.  It's for you to decide - you know.  cost / benefit kind of thing.

 

It's great to have a surfie on the board!  I'm not, but I envy those who can find those waves and scoot along them. - and - I have to say - it gives you a great image for when withdrawal waves are coming down on your head:  paddle out, and try again - if you catch it right, you can surf to shore!

 

I hope you see the sun today.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×