nick1990: citalopram crap

[nick1990]

Hey Rhi! (or anyone else )

 

Was wondering if i could get your 5 cents on this. Really over using a scale . I dont think its accurate and its annoying as all hell! Starting to slowly stabilise again after a bit of a muckup involving a slight dose drop and alcohol ahaha.. Any way heres whats happening..

 

 

 Each 20mg tablet weighs on the scale approx 0.185 g - which i figure to be 18.5 mg. So i have been taking 2 tablets and  a quarter (Which SHOULD weigh 45mg). The quarter have been measuring at about 0.046-0.047g which i figure is 4.6-4.7 mg . So if i dissolve a whole tablet in 20 ml of water i would want to take 5ml of water - is that right???? I dont want to make ANY difference in how much im taking so i want to be as ACCURATE as possible! E.g if i could somehow remove the dissolved tablet from the 5 ml  and weighed it , i dont want it weighing 0.045, because last time i did that when not stablised i got a massive upping of symptoms.

 

Many thanks  

 

 

Nick

[ChessieCat]

If you have been taking 1/4 of a tablet, you would need to dissolve a whole 20 mg tablet in 20 ml.  1/4 of 20 ml = 5 ml so my calculation is that you would need to take 5 ml of the liquid.

 

I'm sure someone else with double check that I've got it correct.

[KarenB]

Also to consider:  if you aren't feeling stable right now, it's not the time to shift to liquid.  For some people it causes no problems, but for some it can cause a period of destabilisation. 

[nick1990]

Sweet thanks for clearing that up ! Karen I think your right. Im starting to stabilize a bit. Not there yet though. I think ill just have to tough out the scale annoyances until my next drop. It honestly took me an hour to do 3 days worth.. haha this is all quite humorous really. . Little update. Been exactly a week.since last panic attack. Feel like one tried to start yesterday but didn't eventuate . All round feeling subtle improvement. Had another good long run yesterday. About 6km and didnt even feel tired.. bit of tension in jaw but not too bad. Still having some ocd style moments about childhood event but on the whole that's improving slowly. Going to see how I feel in a month then decide on my Aussie adventure for the year

[Fresh]

Nick , the solution is less complicated than that sounds (lol).

To take 45mg , you take 2 x 20mg in tablets , and 5mg in liquid.

Dissolve one 20mg tablet in 20mls of water , and draw up 5mls.  

 

You're done.  

The liquid means you don't need to worry about the weight at all , you just plan your drops by mg's.

Some people notice a change to liquid because it gets absorbed quicker - no buffers and fillers.  It's

worth pushing through if that happens , it only lasts a few days (nausea etc.).

[nick1990]

Hello Everyone.

 

I have decided that its time for me to open up . I need to be honest with you all as you are my main support network - which i am forever grateful for. 

I feel that by leaving out some key points about my past - i will not be helping myself in the long run - 

Basically - when i was a child, i went through a period of time of mutual, sexual exploration. Im not going to go into much detail - because i don't think i need to.

But after that period of time ceased i was ok for a little bit and then started to think i was a bad person because of it all. I was then told i had OCD and was put on Citalopram at 60mg when i was 14. Things then improved - but i think they would have improved without the drug intervention. I felt fine. I had a normal teenage life - with a bit too much drinking at times. And a fair bit of Marijuana use. I was active and i was loving life. Then when i was 19 it hit my like a wall again. Anxiety over the event, feeling depressed and un-worthy of happiness. 

 

You could say that what happened - according to every counselor, therapist and doctor i've talked to over the years, (except for one crazy canadian shrink) was normal. I think a few things happened, which were innapropriate, But every professional tells me (and my mum) that it is not a big deal. It is as if i know this - and at times over the last few years i have had long periods of time feeling fine about it. 

A therapist i have seen for years told me - its all chemical. Thats why im feeling like this. He said i must keep active - mentally, physically and socially in order for my head not to start spinning out. Well the last few years ive been doing just that - keeping busy and i must say it helped. But once im back in ol'e NZ sitting around in the house watching the grey clouds roll by - i start feeling bad again. 

When i think about the event when i feel good in myself - i can almost not understand how i felt so terrible about it in the first place, but then its like a wave of anxiety comes over me and distorts my perspective - and off i go again. 

It has been back and forth like this for the last 6 - 7  years, and i am really exhausted. Im done with it. But no logic and reasoning can subdue it at the time. I feel helpless and hopeless when these moments come over me. 

 

Basically, no one understands why i keep beating myself up. Even the therapists. Most people would see it as something that happened and almost laugh it off, but i cant. I believe that i am a pretty intelligent guy. I can see the wrong and right doings of others. I live a life of logic and reason. And i know all the logic behind this points to the fact that i should not feel this way about it. But its as if i get taken over by some sort of irrational state of mind and it nails me!

 

So i guess thats it lol.  

I guess the only question to ask now is... is it the drugs? LOL

[ChessieCat]

Hi Nick,

 

I think it's a bit of both in your case.  One thing that is certain is that if you don't get a handle on it it is still going to be around after you have finished tapering.

 

I'm 58 now and, like most people, there are things in my past that I wish I had not done or done differently.  After seeing a psychologist, doing lots of reading and doing an online CBT workshop, when something comes into my mind that I know I have already dealt with, I just say to myself, it is in the past, I've already dealt with that and I don't need to go back over it.  These days when a thought from the past pops up I just say, not going there!  It's not an easy thing to learn but it is possible.  Please note that I did say "that I have already dealt with".  It is no good trying to ignore something because it will keep coming back to bite us so it does need to be faced, dealt with and then put aside.

 

Sometimes we don't like dealing with something because it brings up uncomfortable feeling and emotions.  They are just feelings and they do pass.  If we keep suppressing our feelings they just keep bubbling away under the surface until they explode and we end up in a bigger mess.

 

I feel that you have taken a really big step posting about it.  It sounds like you are totally fed up with it haunting you, it's time to confront it head on, accept that it happened and you can't do anything to change it and then put it back in the past where it belongs, and keep sending it back whenever it tries to get you to take notice of it again.  Also, we can only live in the PRESENT.

 

bromor has got the DARE:  The New Way to End Anxiety and Stop Panic Attacks book by Barry McDonagh.

 

DARE = Defuse, Allow, Run towards, Engage

 

From Pat Bryant's customer review on Amazon Kindle:

 

"1. Say "so what is the worst that can happen?" 2. Fully and completely accept and allow the discomfort (NOT DANGER) or anxious feelings and thoughts 3. Face it down - dare it to do its worst and 4. Engage in another activity - dwell in the moment to reacclimate the brain."

[nick1990]

Thanks for your response Chessie

 

I do question whether it will fade as the drug does. I only say this because I feel I have dealt with it. I dont phsically see how I could deal with it more than I have, but it just keeps coming. The reports of people who come off drugs successfully suggest that they have a clearer, more rational mind. And ive heard people say that they have dealt with things which they couldn't on the drug. Is it possible I reached tolerance at 19? After being on these for then 5-6 years?

This is hard to explain, but it feels like it isnt the actual event which is causing me to feel bad- but more how it makes me physically and emotionally feel when I think about it. IF that makes sense.

 

And this is probably the most important part of it all - this whole thing is fuelled because sometimes when I think about it I have very horrible emotions pop up. And then sometimes when I think about it I dont have bad emotions at all. And therefore when my mind is calm it holds no significance, and I lead my life normally. BUT when the emotions ARE bad , the only way I have managed to make myself feel better is by thinking about it again and again and again until I don't have that negative emotion anymore.

 

I have been to CBT, and it helps a bit. But the problem is I genuinely feel sometimes that I deserve to feel like this about it.

 

Thankyou for your help and support.

[ChessieCat]

I'm pleased to hear that you have done CBT and also that you feel that you have dealt with it.  What you have said does make sense.

 

My guess is that it is a neuro emotion, so the next step is to learn how to deal with them.  You have already realised that "when my mind is calm it holds no significance, and I lead my life normally" so you are already partway there!!!

 

From Healing's post:  neuro-emotions  (I have changed the formatting a bit to make it more legible.  Also Blue emphasis mine.)

 

"... The neuro-emotions include --

 

neuro-fear   neuro-anger   neuro-guilt   neuro-shame   neuro-hurt   neuro-regret   neuro-self-criticism   neuro-grudge-holding

 

...and more! It is very, very confusing to have these intense neuro-emotions and try to remember that they are not what they appear to be. Emotions are compelling. Emotions during recovery from psych meds are even more compelling. Sometimes, the neuro-emotion is really totally artificial. Some of my neuro-fears have been so unlikely to come to pass as to bear no resemblance to reality or to my personal history. But, I think a lot of the time, part of what makes it so confusing is that there is a grain of reality to the neuro-emotion. For example, some situation might make you a bit angry under normal circumstances, but the neuro-anger is huge. This is when it's very difficult to

 

1) catch it in the first place and notice this is a neuro-emotion,

 

2) convince ourselves, yes, this is really a neuro-emotion, not a real emotion,

 

3) contain the emotion, try not to act on it, or channel the energy into something safe and constructive -- like exercise or journaling or building a birdhouse.

 

Whenever you're having an intense, disturbing feeling, try to remind yourself that, right now -- even if it does have something to do with reality -- it is largely a neuro-emotion that you wouldn't be feeling if you were fully healed. And you *will* be fully healed. It's happening! Get ready!"

[KarenB]

Nick, there's bound to be both neuro emotions and nuggets of real things bouncing around in there.  CC has good ideas for dealing with the neuro aspect of it. 

 

If you had concerns about it before neuro-emotions were a thing in your life, then there may be something still to address.  It's not always clear just what we have to address.  What arises for me when reading posts (including earlier ones) in which you write that everyone says you have nothing to worry about, is that your feelings have been dismissed.  So you may not have felt heard properly.  In that case, an issue will stay with you. 

 

It could be hard to find a counselor experienced enough to get past the 'it's fine, you did nothing wrong' and who is able to just listen to you, and help you manage the accompanying emotions.  When I began counseling, I quickly got through three counselors who didn't have the experience to help me, and on the fourth try I hit gold. 

 

I also believe there's no such thing as 'case closed.'  How can there be when we are growing older, changing perspectives, gaining experience?  As we change we may need to revisit things and re-fit them into our new understandings.  A 20 year old won't think the same as a 30 year old, and so on.  So it's not necessarily bad that we need to revisit, it's just part of our growth. 

 

And when you do that, I've found, you gradually start to make a kind of peace with things. 

 

You are a brave young man Nick.  I really hope you feel heard here.

 

Karen

[ChessieCat]

As we change we may need to revisit things and re-fit them into our new understandings.

 

A nugget of wisdom.  I've never thought of it that way.  I've probably been doing that for years and haven't realised it, and have probably also managed to make peace with them because of that.

[nick1990]

Thank you so much - both of you. I am really taking in what you have both said. I need to sort this. And I think I can. I just need a bit if help along the way.

 

Its funny I forgot to say this. And my mum keeps reminding me of it - during my few months of wd before the updose, I felt calm about this event. It wasn't a thing.

 

Now, whether or not it was becAuse I was so focused on my panic attacks or not, I don't know. But I had a calmer, clearer mind during windows.

 

Should neuro emotions fade with the drug? I dont REALLY think of this as being a psychological thing as much of a chemical thing. But there certainly are aspects which I need to address, and learn how to deal with these neuro emotions.

 

The thing that I find most difficult with 'labelling' these thoughts and feelings as Neuro emotions, is that there is an element of truth to it.

[nick1990]

Whenever you're having an intense, disturbing feeling, try to remind yourself that, right now -- even if it does have something to do with reality -- it is largely a neuro-emotion that you wouldn't be feeling if you were fully healed. And you *will* be fully healed. It's happening! Get ready!"

 

 

Thanks for that Chessie

 

I think thats basically what I wanted to hear..

 

 

 

Can neuro emotions come about from the presence of the drug not just the wd from it ??

[ChessieCat]

That was actually from Healing's post but I'm glad I found it for you and happy that it is helping.

 

As for neuro emotions happening when on the drug, before withdrawal.  Maybe the drug numbs our feelings altogether so maybe we don't get the neuro emotions because of that.

[nick1990]

Hey all. Been nearly 3 weeks since my last bad wave. Feeling pretty normal with no wd symptoms some days. Today wasn't great. Bit of quick anxiety. Lasted all of 20 seconds. Not for hours as it used to. Bit teaey

[nick1990]

Bit teary and feeling sad but that passes too. I have surfed 7 days straight. Exhausting my body to the max ! Was almost too tired to sleep last night. But I had a solid sleep. I wonder if that's what has triggered this mini wave? Anyone, in WD or not would probably be pretty shattered after 7 days of surfing. Anyway, things have improved ALot in the last 3 weeks. Starting too feel like im really close to stability. Until todays hiccup. After reading brass monkeys thread, I really wana start tapering but am going to wait until I have atleast 6 weeks of no WD symptoms. I feel its not long off but don't want to rush it.

[brassmonkey]

Great to hear it Nick.  Seven days of surfing would wipe anyone, well done.

[nick1990]

Definitely a wave. Not as bad as last one a few weeks ago. Just some anx/depress feelings and head ache, feeling a little sick. Im thinking a day or two and ill be back on track. I hope haha..

[nick1990]

Having a bit of a depression wave today. It seems to follow a day after a bit anx. Not nice. Feel like leaving work and going to see mum. Just feel sad. The last few weeks of relative goodness has got me feeling more optimistic about being at the tail end of this. But even though I know this wave is only half as intense as the last one I still cant get out of that relative state if mind, that everything's bad and dark and miserable. How much longer to you guys think It will be til I stabilize? I know its a guess at best but I just need something.. during my clearer moments im pretty excited about tapering again. Slowly. Im waiting till I feel normal.

 

Do you think that you can Still do normal things, like exercise and go out at night and go traveling etc during a slow taper?? I know I know the answer to that but its as if I need reassurance to make me feel better.. sorry for being so weird!

[KarenB]

Nick it's so lovely you want to see you mum.  Sending you 'another-mother-hug' to keep you going .

 

In my experience you can do lots of living during a slow taper.   I can still vist friends, go to yoga, I just bought an electric bike to zip round town on, and I've started going to dance again - just missing out on the faster stuff.  I hadn't been out at night for about 15 years anyway, so that hasn't been an issue for me... .

 

Yeah - can't estimate about stabilising, sorry.  I want an answer to that too... I seem to be in another wave. 

 

Good luck at work,

Karen

[nick1990]

Haha fair enough about not going out for 15 years.. I feel better today. The wave was less intense and shorter lasting than the last one I had 3 weeks ago. Think im getting there sorry to hear your in a wave Karen. Are you still holding? Do you feel a gradual improvement during the longer hold?

[KarenB]

Yeah, I'm still holding, so I guess this wave was just part of the whole windows and waves pattern - no obvious reason otherwise.  Overall I am still finding improvements in this longer hold, so I'm going to keep holding while that's happening.  

 

Glad you feel better today.  Good it was less intense than last time - it's a good sign. 

[nick1990]

Feeling a lot calmer than a couple days ago. have to mention a couple minor things that are bugging me. First, feel a bit flat..like blah.. not overly excited about things that I usually would be. Also I seem to still have pretty normal sex drive. On and off. But dont have as much sensitivity down there. Not super bad, but not quite right. Will these things pass as I stabilize??

[nick1990]

little bit of anx this a.m and have had some jaw tension most of the day. Other than that, been ok. I went out for dinner last night and had a very strong cup of indian chai tea. I didnt think it was caffeinated but it certainly was. 20 mins later i could feel the caffeine. Then felt fine after it wore off and slept well. Could todays slight anx and jaw tension be caused from the caffeine??? I have mostly avoided anything caffeinated for the last 4 months. 

[nick1990]

That was an emotional weekend. Jesus. Saw my ex girlfriend of 4 years who now lives in Melbourne. Im still so in love with her its crazy . Anyway been VERY teary since seeing her. Not abnormal I dont think. Ive always been very emotional , which I think is why I find wd so tough. Slept 12 hours last night and today im in a wave again. Anxiety and teary ness.. im so tired of this guys. The waves are less intense than previously but this ones lasted on and off for 5 days I think. Had a 3 week clear patch leading up to it though. Am I still going to stabilize further? Are those windows good signs im getting close? And intensity of waves easing?

[nick1990]

Definitely not a good day. Moderate anx. On the whole not as bad as last wave but still nasty . Very teary

[nick1990]

And whenever I talk or think about Sarah and how much I miss her I just cant control the tears. Is this normal? And just exacerbated by anxiey symptoms?

[nick1990]

Pretty full on panic. Im scared. Ive bern getting better and the waves less intense and longer windows now I feel back to square one. Why is this happening? Please help

[KarenB]

You've still been holding?  For how long now?  (Might be time to update your sig.)

 

It's probably a wave kicked off by seeing your ex.  No-one is ever back to square one, but the road can loop round a bit and make it feel that way. 

 

Are you at work today?  Maybe you can see your mum after work.  Are you using your anxiety-management tools?

 

So sorry that it's so on-going,

Karen

[nick1990]

Ive been holding for 6 months now. Since that updose. Other than that hiccup 2 months ago where a dropped a fraction and went back up immediately. How can that set iff my wave? I really love her and I have hope for us in the near future so to think that seeing her caused this is just so upsetting. Really truly upsetting.

[nick1990]

Im at work. Cant get anyone to cover my shift

[nick1990]

Please someone. The breakup a couple years back left me in a mess. Im fine when I dont see her and am living my life but it really brought back some strong feelings/emotions. She's back in Melbourne now though. But she wants to come back and visit in a couple of months and I dont want to not be able to see her because it will set off a wave. Were still such gopd friend's and both have feelings for each other still. The time we were together wasn't right but its a high possibility it could be in the near future. I just dont want to not be able to go see her and her come see me because of setting off a wave.

[nick1990]

Some insight would be well appreciated

[AliG]

Hi Nick . I'm sorry that you're in a bit of a wave . These situations , can exacerbate symptoms.  You have been going well with your taper, and I think the best thing you can do is keep looking after yourself, with your self - care . That way in a few months , you will be in  a better place to deal with the emotional aspects of  seeing and dealing with your friend. You will perhaps feel a little stronger , and more balanced. If you stay strong , the rest might fall into place .

Practice your deep breathing and meditation , as they are excellent tools for dealing with stress and anxiety .

[nick1990]

Thanks Ali I will keep doing those things. I hope that I can see her in a couple months and not be pushed in to a wave because of it. I know that im healing, and im thinking in a few months I'll be even more healed and be able to handle the situation fine. Is that what you think ali? Im feeling almost normal now. Crazy wave !

 

Cheers

[AliG]

Nick .  That's great that you're feeling better.   Yes, I do think if you can concentrate on getting yourself in a good place , both emotionally and physically  then you can come from a place of strength when you do meet up again .  If you can use this time , to build yourself up , I think it will stand you in good stead for the future.