nick1990: citalopram crap

[AliG]

Nick .      You're doing great !  So happy for you . Holding is a good idea.  I hope your trip goes well , but take it easy . My youngest son went to Bali for " schoolies week " , so I know it can get hectic ! 

Ali

[nick1990]

Lol oh Ali, schoolies in Bali.. that's a dangerous mix.. I travelled Indonesia in 2014 and let me tell you - it is like the wild west. I tend to focus on the surfing more than the party scene however. Lots of sun, surf and good, cheap food.

[KarenB]

Hey Nick - just wanting to mention that B Vitamins can cause upheavals in your symptoms (esp. multi type vitamins).  Perhaps that has caused this wave? 

[nick1990]

Hey Karen. Thanks for that i did think that before taking them but the "mini" wave started before hand. I actually haven't had a wave in a good long while. This is an absolute shadow of what they were 2-3 months back thankfully.  I really think my nervous system is healed enough to handle supplements now. I can surf all day now . I surfed 3 times on Sunday - each about 2-3 hours. Back in Jan/Feb/March i would tire far quicker.  Another thing, as I'm a Barista i started experimenting with decaf espresso about 3-4 weeks ago, as i felt my body was ready.  I know that a double shot of decaf typically contains 7mg of caffeine. And I haven't noticed any increase in anxiety from drinking one or two a day. 

Still sleeping solidly. But i am working 6 days a week :/  I get home and i just want to lie on the couch after standing up for 7 hours. Usually in bed by 10 and nod off within 5 mins. Dream a lot. Very vivid. Then my circadian clock wakes me at 8 30 . speaking of which ... I'm off to zzzz...

cheers

[nick1990]

Might be a bit of a no brainer , but can my nervous system repair itself to where it was before the taper? say if you hold long enough for WD symptoms to disappear entirely. Im adamant on not tapering until i have no WD symptoms left - Which I'm close to, and I'm having long periods of time without any significant symptoms but then i get a little hiccup popping its head every so often. I have to say though i am getting a little impatient, as i have been holding this dose for almost 9 months now. Improvement has been SIGNIFICANT. But i don't want to risk tapering before full 100% stability. 

 

Last time i tried to resume tapering - when i was not stable it, i dropped by 1 % and i got nailed by bad anxiety and panic. I felt hopeless . I thought - if i can't taper 1 % without becoming a nervous wreck, how will i ever ever ever get off this stuff.. I never want to feel that hopelessness again. Now i know though that it was only cause i was still pretty deep in WD when i tried to adjust the dose that resulted in me having such a tough time. Hence why i am now wanting to be fully stable before even a 2.5 % drop. 

 

I have to say though - even though i know its unrealistic and unreasonable, it is in the back of my head that even a tiny drop is going to send me into panic again - i guess its the fear and the trauma of that last experience...

[scallywag]

Nick -- lots of people have recovered to what they consider 100% after tapering slowly, after tapering rapidly, and -- hard as it is to imagine -- even after cold-turkey. 

 

The fact that you're planning to take your time by making small cuts will most probably smooth your transitions from dose to dose, as will patient holds.

[KarenB]

Brassmonkey talks about 'wd normal' by which he means (and I hope I've got this right)* waiting until things are fairly settled and you are coping.  It may not necessarily be back to pre w/d 'normal' but it's relatively okay.  I've never got to pre-w/d normal, but I have occasionally got to w/d normal.  I have found it a helpful idea - it may or may not work for you though.

 

I totally get you about feeling traumatised by earlier 'w/d awfuls'  Bleh. 

 

*  Brass - feel free to correct that definition as needed  

[brassmonkey]

That sums it up pretty well Karen, but I can't help adding some thoughts.

 

I see WDnormal as the overall baseline of where you are in general. The place you are when you're not feeling good, but you're not feeling bad. Sorta a rolling average of the past couple of months between the windows and waves.  Watching the level of WDnormal is a good indicator that things are improving.  Over time you should be seeing a raising of the standard for WDnormal.  So how you're feeling now is better than say six months ago. It changes very slowly but is a really good indicator.

 

 Many people have the idea that stability is feeling good again, when in fact it's feeling the same level of blah day after day with no big swings to the better or bad. When a person does a drop in dose there will be a corresponding increase in WD symptoms over the next few days.  These symptoms will resolve themselves over the following several weeks and return the person to a slightly raised baseline of discomfort. The time frame and severity are dependent on a huge number of factors and end up being unique to each individual.  But the pattern remains.  This is why paying attention to your WDnormal is very important.  It is also referred to as listening to your body.  After a drop in dose and the symptoms have resolved to WDnormal the person then should wait a couple of more weeks to let things really settle out (there are a lot of little unfelt changer still going on) before considering doing their next drop.

 

During that waiting time people may think that they're not doing anything and want to get on with it.  When in fact doing nothing is very proactive.  It's those little unfelt things that need to be finished up before the next step can be taken.  It's letting the glue harden, the paint dry, the cement cure.  The things that need to be complete before the path is safe to walk on again.  If these details are ignored then they start to pile up and compound each other, then somewhere down the line the foundation slips out from under us and the whole thing collapses.

[nick1990]

Thanks guys !!! Very interesting Brass.. I have to say im feeling pretty close to normal normal. But having the odd symtom every now and then.. however improvement has been constantly happening, so more to come its interesting the variation of descriptions about what happens after a drop . Some people say they feel symptoms arise for a few weeks, while others report no significant symptoms and an improvement in mood/energy/clarity..

[KarenB]

Thanks Brass, I've copied that into my thread - a great explanation, especially that bit about letting the concrete dry.

[nick1990]

Hey all. Well im in sunny Australia on holiday now. Been tanning and surfing plenty. Sleeping well and eating heaps! Other than a bit of morning anxiety yesterday ive been feeling "ok" I spose. . Its the anxiety I would have pre my taper , so I think its poop out anxiety as apposed to wd anx. Bit of ocd, depressed thoughts but liveable. Only real thing that's been bad is that ive been feeling really spaced out. Not very real and my mind feels drugged to be frank. I dont recall feeling quite this out of it before my taper, so im hoping it'll fade soon. But at the same time im wondering if its not my body saying it wants to start tapering. Drugged is the best way to describe the sensation. I watched the sun set in beautiful Byron bay last night with music and surfers in the water. It was stunning, but I couldn't for the life of me appreciate the beauty of it at all. I just felt nothing... my eyes registered that it was beautiful and I know it was but I just felt fuzzy and emotionless.. do you think this could be poop out? I just want to start appreciating all the beautiful things again, and feel real things!! I feel like I did more when I tapered too quick. I certainly noticed things I hadnt in a long time. I want that back, but without the waves that would accompany them..

Your opinions would be most appreciated

[geminigirl]

I get that too..

 

One day you can be feeling and appreciating how beautiful everything is, and then the next you feel so drugged and numbed. It is very vey frustrating, so I completely understand Nick.

 

I think it is part of the withdrawal process, or part of your brain still trying to readjust.

 

Like Brass said, I still wouldn't take the drugged feeling as a sign that you should start tapering faster than you normally would.

 

For me the drugged feeling comes and goes. Apparently as you get lower in dose the drugged feeling will decrease.

 

Hopefully one of the mods can also explain further or might say something different as this is just my opinion

[brassmonkey]

Hey Nick-- it all sounds absolutely beautiful, I'm  jealous. lol  Personally I wouldn't mess with my dose until I got back home and rested up. The symptoms you describe sound pretty normal, frustrating but normal. Given time and taper they will resolve and you'll be back to enjoying the beauty.  Being frustrated by not feeling what you think you should be feeling is a good sign of healing.  Don't try to force thing and just let what enjoyment happens as it happens, it may surprise you.

[KarenB]

You might like to watch this short video, with it's encouragement to be with what is.  Melt into your own life

 

It's a goodie .

[nick1990]

Dont know where that came from. Had a minute of panic just before. Its 1030 am here in Qld. Has been a gooood couple months since one of those. Not overly intense but definitely dont feel great. The last few days ive been feeling quite hohum too... depressive feelings especially late morning. Then better by later in the day. Why is this happening? It has been about 9 months since updosing. Could I still be recovering from that? I want to start tapering. But this little wave has made me think may be im not ready. I dont want to get crippled by anx from making a 2% drop !!! Im seriously over this crap

[KarenB]

Alcohol?  Coffee?  Sugar?  Australia ?  Sorry, just some gentle teasing for our cuzzies over the ditch .  Not enough rest?  There are many things that can trigger a little wave Nick.  But I know how gutting it is each time another one surfaces.  Are you using your tools for managing anxiety? 

[nick1990]

Ive been having about 2-3 decaf coffees a day. Lots of lollies and chocolate too. The thing is I thought my cns had healed and to have a little wave like this shows me its not. Is it safe to Say I should hold off on tapering still? Its incredibly infuriating as I just want to get going with tapering. On a plus side, had a awesome surf in NSW today in the sun and another surf in QLD this evening. Sooo warm out and lots of sunshine. Im heading home on Monday.

[nick1990]

I forgot to add the episode only lasted about 2-3 minutes todAy then back to normal. I keep reading joys thread and seeing how well shes doing. Even with some physical symptoms her mood seems great. I want my mood to be good. More than anything! I just cant help but feel that my tapering is going to cause massive anxiety. I dont care about physicals but this psychological crap is seriously gnarly :'(

[KarenB]

If you're heading home on Monday then it's probably sensible to wait till you're settled back in to NZ.  Your CNS probably is healed quite a lot, but you'll still need to take care with it.  It will be fragile for a long time yet, I imagine. 

[nick1990]

Hmm ok Karen thanks. Wasn't planning on tapering while here. Interesting what you say about my CNS being fragile for some time still. I thought the reason for a long hold is to settle your CNS ?

[KarenB]

Yes, the long hold is to give your CNS a chance to settle, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's regained all it's former robustness.  I think this goes back to Brass's idea of 'w/d normal.'  You get settled, in that you aren't dealing with huge symptoms every day, but you are still in w/d with a CNS that isn't yet what it used to be.

 

Or to expand the trellis and plants imagery, once some of the trellis is removed you might like to set up some wind-break around those delicate plants till their roots get better established and they can once again withstand the strong winds.    

[nick1990]

Thanks for that Karen

 

At the moment this is what im thinking ,

 

Although my symptoms have mostly diminished and are at a relatively stable level, im thinking I will wait until October to resume my taper. My parents go to Europe for September and I dont want to begin this with them away. I could either start tapering before they go or once they return, and I figure theres no harm in holding for an extra couple of months, if anything it will put me in an even better place to taper. It will.also mark a year since my updose, which would be quite a novelty. Yet at the same time, every day I have this high dose in my system I feel its doing damage so it would be nice to start removing it asap... btw, how is your hold going Karen??

[KarenB]

I'm edging closer to reducing again.  It took a long time to feel any improvement, but since mid June I feel there has been more stabilisation.  So now it's working out how long to spend in a nicer, more stabilised place.  Obviously I don't want to rush it, but neither do I want to leave it longer than necessary.  I'm thinking of giving it another 6 weeks. 

 

Thanks for asking.  I think your plan seems quite sound too.

[nick1990]

That's good to hear Karen. If I were you, id consider holding even longer. Especially if your noticing improvement.

[nick1990]

Hey all you long holders out there. Is there any negative to a long hold? I know there's alot of reasons too hold but can one hold too long and begin to decline?

[LexAnger]

Holding long used to help with my WD symptoms in the past, but since last year, I suddenly developed intolerance to the same drug, lexapro, and have to speed up tapering, otherwise the drug reaction gets too bad and strong.

[LexAnger]

Oh, why the question?

[nick1990]

Thanks Lex. Well the question is cause im thinking of holding til October. I am functional now. I still have some mild waves of depression when in a wave , but I definitely brought this mini wave on myself. Surfed 10 days straight about 6 hours a day. Really pushed myself physically. I think that's why ive had a little wave. Plus lots of chocolate, like heaps! And a pretty crappy diet. And a muck.around with slight jet lag etc..

 

Still wanting to go to Bali in October but I also don't want to keep delaying tapering. What are your guys thoughts? I dont feel quite back to normal yet and not quite ready to taper. Would another 3 months on this high dose be detrimental or should I really look at beggining to reduce?

 

All the best

Nick

[brassmonkey]

Hi Nick--  That's only a three month hold and should be no problem.  Long holds usually end up being 9-12 months plus and can have their down sides.  The ambitious surfing schedule you had was probably one of the best things you could have done.  Yes, you had a "little wave" because of if it, but hopefully that's resolving itself fairly quickly.  Please remember that stability between drops does not mean symptom free, it means a return to WDnormal or baseline.  Once you're solidly on baseline, then you can drop again.  

 

My question is, if you're going to Bali in October and you're wanting to drop in October, which happens first?  Do you drop the week before you travel? Not a good idea.  Do you wait until you get back? You'll probably be trashed from surfing too hard and having a "little wave" and have to wait for that to settle.  Which means your drop is postponed until November/December.  If your current  "little wave" is settling out I would give it until the beginning of August and then drop.  That will give you a couple of months to stabilize before your next adventure.

[nick1990]

Hey Brass mate! Its actually been nine months since I updosed and 12 month's since I tapered too quick. I haven't made a reduction since. Other than one in jan when I wasn't ready and got anxiety from a 1% drop :/

Hence why im being so cautious about making sure im ready to reduce. I guess I want to essentially start fresh with tapering with all the new info I have from this amazing site.

 

Regarding my tapering around Bali, I was thinking of doing so after I get home. I was hoping if I hold my tapering til then it will be a year with no changes and my system will be in a more robust shape to handle drops.

 

In the past Brass, I have been able to reduce by 10% + (with incredibly long holds) and had very little in the way of symptoms - so im hoping that waiting till im feeling consistently OK I can reduce slowly and surely without hitting a wall.

 

What are your thoughts? Many thanks

[brassmonkey]

That all makes sense to me Nick. I'd say it's a good plan.  Didn't you mention surfing Bali a year or so ago?

[nick1990]

So the extra time holding shouldn't cause any issues? Yeh I think I probably did. Bali is my happy place so during my acute wd I prob mentioned it a bit as that's where I wanted to go for a holiday and it was like my goal to feel well enough to get back there I am well enough to go back there now, but my friends want to wait til sept/oct to save some $ . And as im very anxious about reducing again I would hate to do it soon and have to cancel my trip because of symptoms. I know realistically I should be ok to taper before and be fine, as everyone has assured me but I just feel uneasy. Its because of the unknown. That's what scares me, and I haven't established a pattern yet for my tapering.

 

Is a year a long time to hold after a pretty bad crash? Or is it quite common? And other than still being on a high dose of Citalopram are theRe any other obvious reasons to not hold ?

Im finally feeling confident enough in myself to go and live my life, unlike the past year. I dont want to go through this all over again and I will do anything to avoid it. Hence why im aiming for solid stability

[brassmonkey]

I've run into several people who have done extended holds of a year or more and for the most part they've had no problems.  There were two who ran into problems with tolerance issues, but they had similar problems before they started their holds.  If I remember correctly there had been some fast tapers or CTs involved too.  I don't see any reason for problems cropping up and long holds are a good idea after a crash.  Try to get everything good and stable.

[Flowers]

Hi Nick

 

Great to read that you have had a fab holiday in the sunshine doing all that surfing! Wow! Now you have Bali to look forward to.

 

Just to give you my experience. After WD and updosing to stabilise I held for 12 months before starting tapering. I did have several small waves a couple of months before I started my taper but once that had settled I started the taper and was fine. I must admit I was scared to start tapering and wanted to get my CNS as stable as possible before I started.I am so glad I did as have not had a too bad taper so far.

 

If you feel ready in October after your holiday then go ahead - if not it won't matter to hold for as long as necessary.

 

Just relax and your body will tell you when it is time.

 

Best Wishes

 

Flowers x

[nick1990]

Thankyou guys and thanks so much for sharing your experience flowers x

 

I wasn't going to put this here yet but its been 3-4 days now... im feeling really good. After that last mini wave from exhaustion I've felt more normal and CAlM than I have at all. I actually feel back to normal at the moment. It seems to have been a rapid improvement. Here's the interesting part - maybe coincidence , maybe something more - 4 days ago I grabbed a bottle of Floradix. Its a herbal Iron supplement drink. Pretty strong and also contains some other goodies. I dont eat meat and don't supplement iron properly either. Could this actually be a thing? I had bloods done 8 months ago and I was low in iron..

Would be interesting to hear what you all think

[bubble]

Hello Nick!

 

I admire your attitude to all this. Not many people 'get' holding. I'm one firm believer in the good of holding. I'm very happy that Flowers shared with you her positive experience.

 

The thing about iron and imporved feeling was also reported by Karen on her thread recently. So there might be a connection. Wishing you a good hold