☼ Junglechicken

[Junglechicken]

Just had a bad histhamine reaction to pomodoro sauce ☹️

 

Sneezing, watery and itchy eyes.

 

Uggh!  Guess I'll be avoiding tomatoes for the foreseeable future.

[Giulietta]

9 hours ago, Junglechicken said:

Scare mongering tactic by politicians to detract from the "real/important" issues at hand?!?

 

9 hours ago, Frogie said:

That’s my opinion. Like I said, it happens in the US every election year. Look at all the other viruses that have been an epidemic.

 

Whether this is a graver threat than the previous viruses or hyped by the media (and government) - it looks like a bit of panic in parts of the US.  JC, I don't want to hijack your thread so I posted on mine so hopefully people will look over there if they want. 😉

 

@sunnysideup69 @ShiningLight@Leo1983 and others...

[ShiningLight]

I'm very concerned. Usually people aren't dropping dead in the streets like some have in China. It's not election time there.

 

This is more transmissible and more deadly for vulnerable populations than flu. The media is sensationalizing it but that doesn't mean that the concern isn't real. 

 

The virus is in my community. I suspect some flu cases were actully covid 19 but not sure. I am expecting hundreds of new cases in northern CA over the next month due to healthcare workers having been unknowingly exposed and then exposing others before they were quarantined. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Lack of test kits is causing underdiagnosing. Test kits were only 70% sensitive, 30% false negative rate. Not sure if that issue has been fixed. Important to have food and water supplies for 2-3 weeks on hand per CDC. Rare guidance considering the usual advice is 2-3 days. 

 

Re concern of possible med shortages...not much we can do about that except hope it isn't severe.  

 

[Junglechicken]

I think my most recent "wave" was actually more akin to the start of histamine intolerance, as the symptoms correlate. 

 

There could also be a "culprit" here, and that is the mirena coil I had fitted early Aug 2019.  Many women have complained about gut issues, and many other symptoms including weight gain!

 

The wave was marked with horrible stomach cramps, chills, anxiety and other stuff, and the last couple of weeks have seen me sneezing with congestion after eating certain foods.

 

I also have acne all over my chest - yuck!

 

Now my weight is actually dropping, because I can't eat very much due to gut issues.  

 

Sorry if this is going over old ground, however, I'm trying to piece it all together - what triggered what?  

 

 

[Junglechicken]

14 hours ago, ShiningLight said:

I'm very concerned. Usually people aren't dropping dead in the streets like some have in China. It's not election time there.

 

This is more transmissible and more deadly for vulnerable populations than flu. The media is sensationalizing it but that doesn't mean that the concern isn't real. 

 

The virus is in my community. I suspect some flu cases were actully covid 19 but not sure. I am expecting hundreds of new cases in northern CA over the next month due to healthcare workers having been unknowingly exposed and then exposing others before they were quarantined. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Lack of test kits is causing underdiagnosing. Test kits were only 70% sensitive, 30% false negative rate. Not sure if that issue has been fixed. Important to have food and water supplies for 2-3 weeks on hand per CDC. Rare guidance considering the usual advice is 2-3 days. 

 

Re concern of possible med shortages...not much we can do about that except hope it isn't severe.  

 

 

Hi Shining,

 

This is the latest on our side of the pond:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/live-government-admits-uk-outbreak-increasingly-serious-as-number-of-cases-rises-and-plan-for-extra-mortuary-space-revealed/ar-BB10FWac?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=spartanntp

 

Take care over there,

 

JC

[Giulietta]

33 minutes ago, Junglechicken said:

Many women have complained about gut issues, and many other symptoms including weight gain!

 

I have a lot of bloating  particularly at night and very uncomfortable (duh) and have GERD too. Maybe it is the season. 😉 . This happens to me regardless of what I ate for dinner (I think - should pay more attention to what I ate).  The vacillation in appetite is a PITA.

 

38 minutes ago, Junglechicken said:

Sorry if this is going over old ground, however, I'm trying to piece it all together - what triggered what?  

 

 

I have noticed that some people experience repetition of clusters of symptoms and some emergence of different systems throughout this ongoing journey. Some systems seem to be more affected (?) than others in some people.  Mentioning t hat they are repeating is helpful for us all - because ours repeat even if they are slightly better on some days. 🙂  Sorry they have come back but will soon be gone.

 

14 hours ago, ShiningLight said:

I'm very concerned. Usually people aren't dropping dead in the streets like some have in China. It's not election time there.

 

I am too - check my thread to see the good advice I received. Also BrassMonkey's I will re-read your post later.

 

Not to minimize your concerns and worries of you and others...particularly since you worrk in medical and the virus is in your community - but following best practices is all we can control and taking care of ourselves.

 

I have seen these videos too but decided not to give them credence. I hav e seen no information about them such as there is no evidence that thse are real. With current technology, this could have been staged using computer simulations, or some other means.

 

I am not minimizing yours or anyone's anxieties about this (or my own). All feelings are justifiable. As a friend once said to me, it is how we cope.

 

Big hug,

G.

 

[ShiningLight]

Hi Jungle,

 

Wow. Glad UK gov is taking steps. I'm sure USA gov is also but is more secretive about it. If there ever was a time for transparency in government, now is it. I think the test kit problems are with USA test kits not others. But not sure. Sorry I didn't look where you are living.

 

I wonder if some of our empty big box retail stores that have gone out of business are going to be used as makeshift hospitals or quarantine locations. I have a feeling they will.

 

 

 

[Junglechicken]

13 hours ago, ShiningLight said:

Hi Jungle,

 

Wow. Glad UK gov is taking steps. I'm sure USA gov is also but is more secretive about it. If there ever was a time for transparency in government, now is it. I think the test kit problems are with USA test kits not others. But not sure. Sorry I didn't look where you are living.

 

I wonder if some of our empty big box retail stores that have gone out of business are going to be used as makeshift hospitals or quarantine locations. I have a feeling they will.

 

 

 

 

Hi Shining,

 

The UK government is offering £20M to fund research to develop a vaccine.

 

Also, there was the Spanish flu pandemic of 1918-20, so its likely that this will also go down in the history books.  

 

Very scary situation indeed...….

 

 

[Junglechicken]

22 hours ago, Giulietta said:

 

I have a lot of bloating  particularly at night and very uncomfortable (duh) and have GERD too. Maybe it is the season. 😉 . This happens to me regardless of what I ate for dinner (I think - should pay more attention to what I ate).  The vacillation in appetite is a PITA.

 

 

I have noticed that some people experience repetition of clusters of symptoms and some emergence of different systems throughout this ongoing journey. Some systems seem to be more affected (?) than others in some people.  Mentioning t hat they are repeating is helpful for us all - because ours repeat even if they are slightly better on some days. 🙂  Sorry they have come back but will soon be gone.

 

 

I am too - check my thread to see the good advice I received. Also BrassMonkey's I will re-read your post later.

 

Not to minimize your concerns and worries of you and others...particularly since you worrk in medical and the virus is in your community - but following best practices is all we can control and taking care of ourselves.

 

I have seen these videos too but decided not to give them credence. I hav e seen no information about them such as there is no evidence that thse are real. With current technology, this could have been staged using computer simulations, or some other means.

 

I am not minimizing yours or anyone's anxieties about this (or my own). All feelings are justifiable. As a friend once said to me, it is how we cope.

 

Big hug,

G.

 

 

G,

 

When I eventually get to see my NP, I'm going to get tested for Chron's and other autoimmune diseases of the gut.

 

To me, this is one of the scary aspects of WD; that we can develop autoimmune responses in our bodies due to the WD stress load for pro-longed periods.

 

Anyway, I'll be looking to get those ruled out.

 

Appetite has been a nightmare for me.  I've gone from being a total PIG, to hardly eating now as I don't know what my gut is going to do next, which in turn leads to blood sugar crashes.

 

Hugs,

JC

 

 

[Giulietta]

2 hours ago, Junglechicken said:

that we can develop autoimmune responses in our bodies due to the WD stress load for pro-longed periods.

 

Hi JC,

 

Yes, there is quite a lot written about this.

 

2 hours ago, Junglechicken said:

Anyway, I'll be looking to get those ruled out.

 

I am glad. Knowing these are not the cause of your symptoms will unburden you of this worry. After I reinstated duloxetine in September 2018, I had the usual unpleasant side effects - and didn't realize they were side effects at the time! I had GI complaints I won't mention here 😉 so I finally went to the MD, who referred me to GI specialist, who ruled out a number of physical causes. Eventually things 'resolved' with use of several OTC remedies over a prolonged time.

 

I was glad to rule out a numbmer of potential GI issues.

 

2 hours ago, Junglechicken said:

Appetite has been a nightmare for me.  I've gone from being a total PIG, to hardly eating now

 

This is part of the stress response, as you know. I could post some things on it if you are not aware. Here is an excerpt from the linked article.

 

Why do we get bloated?

 

"...cortisol increases appetite, so that people will want to eat more to obtain extra energy. It also increases storage of unused nutrients as fat."

 

It looks like an intersting article.

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/understanding-the-stress-response

 

I really like NPs. They seem to be more interested and willing to spend more time. At least that is my impression here. However, when I have requested to see the NP at my 'facility' they give me my MD.

 

Keep me posted. 😉

 

G.

 

 

[Junglechicken]

Found another article on protracted WD.

 

Sorry if this is duplicating information on the SA site.

 

https://www.holisticpsychiatrist.com/medication-withdrawal

[Junglechicken]

 

Again, apologies Mods if I am duplicating information.  No doubt this article by Stuart Shipko has been read by many on SA already.

 

 

Playing the Odds: Antidepressant ‘Withdrawal’ and the Problem of Informed Consent

Playing the Odds: Antidepressant 'Withdrawal' and the Problem of Informed Consent | Mad In America

Stuart Shipko, M.D.

August 12, 2013

If I thought that it was possible, I would have opened a string of clinics all over the country to help get people off of antidepressants. Unfortunately, the problems that sometimes occur when people try to stop an SSRI antidepressant are much more severe and long-lasting than the medical profession acknowledges, and there is no antidote to these problems.

Outside of using a benzodiazepine, I don’t have a lot of suggestions. Reinstating the medications often does not help and sometimes there is a negative reaction. In the past I worked with SAM-e, thought to enhance neurotransmitter synthesis, and L-tryptophan, a precursor of serotonin. It had placebo value, but was not an ‘antidote’ to the problem

The problem starts with nomenclature. The citizen scientists of the Internet have labeled the problem ‘protracted withdrawal.’ To physicians, withdrawal is a phenomenon that starts when the blood level of a substance drops to near zero and persists for a week or two. The concept of ‘protracted withdrawal’ is inconsistent with the very definition of withdrawal. So when a patient tells their doctor that they have ‘protracted withdrawal’ the doctor draws a blank.

Citizen scientists developed a set of corollary beliefs; primarily that the protracted withdrawal is largely due to stopping the drug too fast and that if one waits long enough that the symptoms of protracted withdrawal are going to go away. My clinical observation is that long lasting symptoms occur even in patients who taper very slowly, not just those who stop quickly, and that there is no guarantee that these symptoms will go away no matter how long the patient waits.

What I have observed is that the ‘withdrawal’ symptoms occur while patients are on a steady dosage of the drug, shortly after stopping the drug and weeks or months after stopping the drugs. The only precedent for this type of presentation is tardive dyskinesia (TD). Tardive refers to symptoms that occur later and dyskinesia refers to movement disorder. TD is generally associated with antipsychotic medication, and is also a manufacturer labeled side effect of the SSRIs. TD occurs while on antipsychotics, primarily occurs shortly after stopping them, and may occur months or even longer after stopping the drugs. With the SSRIs, it is not so much a tardive movement disorder as a tardive problem with akathisia, a sort of constant restlessness or agitation that is accompanied by an agitated anxious/depressed state. It is a very uncomfortable sensation.

It is generally unappreciated that people who stop SSRIs often develop a new onset of severe depression or anxiety months after stopping the drugs. It took me years before I realized that this is what was occurring, but this seems to be fairly common. Patients often did well for months, only to develop fairly acute profound states of anxiety and or depression. The anxiety and/or depression was not a relapse, because the patients never had these symptoms before starting the drugs. Because people are thinking of the discontinuation problem as withdrawal, they are not considering the later onset symptoms as related to stopping the drugs. What is somewhat frightening to consider is that patients with tardive dyskinesia sometimes do not manifest symptoms for years after stopping antipsychotics. Will this be the fate of those who stop SSRIs? This won’t be known for a long time, particularly if nobody is doing careful research on the topic.

Tapering the drug slowly definitely minimizes the acute symptoms that occur when stopping an SSRI but does not appear (IMHO) to have much bearing on the longer-term and late-onset symptoms that occur when stopping an SSRI. I have not found a meaningful antidote to the longer-term symptoms. L-tryptophan boosts serotonin in the central nervous system, but has not benefitted my patients. Some websites advertise supplements that increase glutathione, a liver detoxifier, as an antidote. SAM-e increases glutathione, and has not proven to be particularly helpful. SAM-e also increases neurotransmitter synthesis, and even when taken with L-tryptophan, does not seem to make much difference. Benzodiazepines seem to offer some relief, but they are dependency-forming and if taken regularly result in another dependency – although this is worth it for some patients.

Not only do some patients stopping SSRIs develop a variant of tardive akathisia, a percentage of the patients who develop this problem will find that reinstating the SSRI will not alleviate the problem and may actually make the problem worse.

The difficulties that occur when patients stop SSRIs, particularly after 5 or more years on the drug, have not been fully acknowledged by physicians and citizen scientists alike. In my experience stopping SSRIs after 5 years of cumulative exposure can be risky, and I am not advising anyone who has taken the drugs for 10 years or more to try to stop unless they are willing to risk disabling symptoms. The documentary movie, “Numb” by Phil Lawrence shows what can happen when a person taking Paxil for a decade tries to stop the drug. I’m sure that there are some people who can stop SSRIs after taking them for long periods of time, but prior to making such a decision, people are entitled to have a good idea of what can happen to them.

Those who are on self-help websites want to believe that if they wait long enough (however disabled they may be in the meantime) that they will get better. The people that I have seen, suffering and disabled, waiting years for the ‘withdrawal’ to end are heartbreaking – particularly when they may be waiting for something that is not going to end. If tardive dyskinesia is any guide, sometimes TD does go away, and sometimes it persists indefinitely. I expect that the same is true for SSRI withdrawal. The incidence of the late-onset and longer-term symptoms is not known because there has been no systematic study of the problem.

Absent a meaningful treatment for the withdrawal emergent symptoms, proper informed consent before starting OR stopping the SSRIs is critical. Nobody should take SSRI antidepressants unless they know exactly what they are getting into. Informed consent for the SSRIs must necessarily include information concerning the difficulties related to stopping the drugs as well as the symptoms that occur when starting the drugs. Also, patients who are considering stopping the drugs must also have informed consent concerning possible difficulties.

For this reason, I recently published an eBook, “Dr. Shipko’s Informed Consent for SSRI Antidepressants.” It is the first book that gives warnings for patients who are considering stopping SSRIs as well as those who are considering starting SSRIs. The book is short and readable and does mention that the drugs can be very helpful for some patients. Most books on the topic are completely negative about using these drugs, and the bias is off-putting for patients who are trying to make their own decision about taking SSRIs. I would hope that patients find the eBook palatable and reasonably objective. Patients in my practice find the book helpful, and when a patient is still interested in an SSRI even after reading the book, I take this as a serious indication of how much they are suffering, and may find that the risk/benefit ratio tilts in favor of trying an SSRI.

If you know of someone who is thinking about starting or stopping a SSRI, please consider sending them a copy of ‘Informed Consent.’

[Giulietta]

1 hour ago, Junglechicken said:

No doubt this article by Stuart Shipko has been read by many on SA already.

 

Hello JC,

 

Heartfelt thanks for posting (or re-posting if the case may be) as I had not seen it before.  I have heard of Dr. Shipko and will see if he does consults over the computer. 😉

 

This is a bit discouraging that whether one tapers slowly or  discontinues rapidly - we will still have these WD symptoms?

 

 

 

Copied and pasted from a commentor on the article who is spot on and  happens to be struggling with klonopin...

"Your personal, idiopathic needs come second. And ego has a lot to do with it as well. The doctors have a mental blueprint of what they think is good social behavior. And they expect you to adhere to their prescriptive treatments. So if your using Xanax, Ativan, Halcion – PRN, then your a drug addict. But if you take Klonopin on a regular schedule – everyday at the same time(s), then your just following a plan set by your doctor. However erroneous/hazardous it may be."

 

Eke.

 

Thanks, JC.

 

Giulietta

[Rozon1]

I wonder if this is true. Do people who have tapered slowly still have WD symptoms? Has anyone seen this? 

[apace41]

16 minutes ago, Giulietta said:

This is a bit discouraging that whether one tapers slowly or  discontinues rapidly - we will still have these WD symptoms?

 

Giulietta,

 

This article was discussed in great depth (I don't have time to find the link) and many were very unhappy with the way Shipko portrayed this (creating a sense of helplessness).  If you go and find the discussion there are lots of differing views, and Shipko himself printed a later article that walks back a lot of his position in this piece.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Junglechicken]

Hi G and Rozon1,

 

Yes, I'm afraid to break it to you that protracted WD symptoms do occur after long/slow tapers.  BUT, we are all different, so no one's journey will be the same (sorry for the cliche there).

 

I tapered over 3 yrs (following re-instatement) and am still having windows and waves.  I'm 2 months into a big wave, 22 months out from last dose.

 

The CNS still has to reach homeostasis, despite following tapering "rules".

 

No one can predict someone else's WD journey.  We have been on different ADs, different doses, different durations, and our body chemistry is different.

 

I didn't mean to cause concern by posting that article.

 

JC

[Giulietta]

2 hours ago, Junglechicken said:

Found another article on protracted WD.

 

Thanks, JC, for posting or reposting.   I noticed the author's comment, "...support the patient's health through nutritional supplements and natural interventions that lower infectious sources and decrease oxidative stress. "  Selenium was advised to me years ago by an epilepsy specialist because of its anti-oxidant properties.

 

Does anyone have any input on adding selenium to the omega fatty acid and magnesium?

[Giulietta]

10 minutes ago, apace41 said:

many were very unhappy with the way Shipko portrayed this (creating a sense of helplessness).

 

Thanks, Andy. I will add this to my (long) list of online search activities.

10 minutes ago, Junglechicken said:

I didn't mean to cause concern by posting that article.

 

Hi there, no, JC, you didn't cause me concern. It is what it is and has likely been no secret.

 

Related to this and because of my (and others I know) protracted WD - I have asked myself how much a difference it makes in how quickly I taper the remainer of my dose. I appreciate that we are all different. 

 

How does one know the difference having stabilized or whether one is in a window - or does it matter?

 

 

[Junglechicken]

1 hour ago, Giulietta said:

 

Thanks, Andy. I will add this to my (long) list of online search activities.

 

Hi there, no, JC, you didn't cause me concern. It is what it is and has likely been no secret.

 

Related to this and because of my (and others I know) protracted WD - I have asked myself how much a difference it makes in how quickly I taper the remainer of my dose. I appreciate that we are all different. 

 

How does one know the difference having stabilized or whether one is in a window - or does it matter?

 

 

 

G,

 

"How does one know the difference having stabilized or whether one is in a window - or does it matter?"

 

i think the difference between stabilising and being in a window, is that stabilising happens following re-instatement (when the CNS has otherwise been destabilised following sudden cessation of the AD(s); as in cold turkey (CT) and being in a window happens much further down the line, i.e perhaps a few months in, once a tapering regime has been established; and also after having achieved "0" mg.  

 

The months following "0" mg start getting into "protracted" territory.

[Giulietta]

1 minute ago, Junglechicken said:

i think the difference between stabilising and being in a window, is that stabilising happens following re-instatement

 

Thanks, JC. Food for thought. Will revisit on my thread so as not to co-opt yours. 😉

[Junglechicken]

2 minutes ago, Giulietta said:

 

Thanks, JC. Food for thought. Will revisit on my thread so as not to co-opt yours. 😉

 

G,

 

No problem at all, I had posted the articles on my thread after all!

 

TC,

JC

[Giulietta]

28 minutes ago, apace41 said:

the way Shipko portrayed this (creating a sense of helplessness).

 

I continued down the comments and found a brilliant response from Alto (Aug 2013). I have taken the liberty to copy/paste below - and apologies to mods if this is a repeat or out of line. 

 

Note again this comment is a response to Dr. Shipko's article "Playing the Odds: Antidepressant ‘Withdrawal’ and the Problem of Informed Consent" on 8/12/2013 cited above by JC.

 

Altostrata August 13, 2013 at 11:03 am

Dr. Shipko, I’m very disappointed by your approach to this problem.

First, you are offering “informed consent” for people who wish to go off antidepressants. According to your theory, by then, it’s too late for them. This doesn’t help those millions of patients who are caught in the trap at all.

You should be putting your efforts into educating doctors of your findings about the perils of withdrawal.

Second, you dismiss the importance of tapering to protect the nervous system. Clearly, many people can taper off antidepressants and do well afterward, as many, many anecdotes on the Web reveal. We also see people recover from those tardive symptoms to which you refer. It does take time.

As you are an expert in benzo tapering, I am confused as to why you would not apply the same reasoning to antidepressant tapering.

Third, you dismiss the efforts of “citizen scientists” and self-help Web sites supporting tapering, which exist only because of the vacuum of knowledge among doctors.

If these self-help resources did not exist, people who wish to go off the drugs would have no help in tapering, as few doctors even grasp the concept.

Whether you call the symptoms “prolonged withdrawal syndrome” (symptoms being continuous from discontinuation of the drug) or post-withdrawal syndrome or whatever you want to call it, medicine pays little attention to any long-term effects of psychiatric drugs. “Citizen scientists” do. Nit-picking about nomenclature makes no sense. We both know what we’re talking about. The rest of medicine couldn’t care less.

Fourth, the impact of your article is:

– Don’t go on the drugs.
– Don’t go off the drugs.
– If you run into a problem, don’t call me.

Is this really what you want to say?

With your background in neurology as well as psychiatry, you could help people who have experienced long-term post-withdrawal symptoms by focusing on ways to stabilize the autonomic nervous system.

(Tardive dyskinesia may not be the only analogy; see parallels to dyautonomia underlying chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia explored on the Beyond Meds blog http://beyondmeds.com/2013/07/24/ans-and-interaction/ There’s also traumatic brain injury, which takes a cycle of about 7 years for recovery.)

This is why your experiments with serotonin boosters such as SAM-e and tryptophan went nowhere — you simply tried to replace the antidepressant. How would this stabilize dysautonomia? The problem is downstream of the (most likely desensitized) serotonin receptors.

Just addressing the sleep issues alone would be of tremendous help to those suffering from withdrawal syndromes.

I have a great deal of respect for your concern about withdrawal problems and for what you may have observed in your practice. I fear your frustration and anger on behalf of injured patients has caused you to give up on treatment of post-withdrawal symptoms. There is a crying need for someone of your caliber to delve further into this. I beg you to persevere."

 

 

[Junglechicken]

2 minutes ago, Giulietta said:

 

I continued down the comments and found a brilliant response from Alto (Aug 2013). I have taken the liberty to copy/paste below - and apologies to mods if this is a repeat or out of line. 

 

Note again this comment is a response to Dr. Shipko's article "Playing the Odds: Antidepressant ‘Withdrawal’ and the Problem of Informed Consent" on 8/12/2013 cited above by JC.

 

Altostrata August 13, 2013 at 11:03 am

Dr. Shipko, I’m very disappointed by your approach to this problem.

First, you are offering “informed consent” for people who wish to go off antidepressants. According to your theory, by then, it’s too late for them. This doesn’t help those millions of patients who are caught in the trap at all.

You should be putting your efforts into educating doctors of your findings about the perils of withdrawal.

Second, you dismiss the importance of tapering to protect the nervous system. Clearly, many people can taper off antidepressants and do well afterward, as many, many anecdotes on the Web reveal. We also see people recover from those tardive symptoms to which you refer. It does take time.

As you are an expert in benzo tapering, I am confused as to why you would not apply the same reasoning to antidepressant tapering.

Third, you dismiss the efforts of “citizen scientists” and self-help Web sites supporting tapering, which exist only because of the vacuum of knowledge among doctors.

If these self-help resources did not exist, people who wish to go off the drugs would have no help in tapering, as few doctors even grasp the concept.

Whether you call the symptoms “prolonged withdrawal syndrome” (symptoms being continuous from discontinuation of the drug) or post-withdrawal syndrome or whatever you want to call it, medicine pays little attention to any long-term effects of psychiatric drugs. “Citizen scientists” do. Nit-picking about nomenclature makes no sense. We both know what we’re talking about. The rest of medicine couldn’t care less.

Fourth, the impact of your article is:

– Don’t go on the drugs.
– Don’t go off the drugs.
– If you run into a problem, don’t call me.

Is this really what you want to say?

With your background in neurology as well as psychiatry, you could help people who have experienced long-term post-withdrawal symptoms by focusing on ways to stabilize the autonomic nervous system.

(Tardive dyskinesia may not be the only analogy; see parallels to dyautonomia underlying chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia explored on the Beyond Meds blog http://beyondmeds.com/2013/07/24/ans-and-interaction/ There’s also traumatic brain injury, which takes a cycle of about 7 years for recovery.)

This is why your experiments with serotonin boosters such as SAM-e and tryptophan went nowhere — you simply tried to replace the antidepressant. How would this stabilize dysautonomia? The problem is downstream of the (most likely desensitized) serotonin receptors.

Just addressing the sleep issues alone would be of tremendous help to those suffering from withdrawal syndromes.

I have a great deal of respect for your concern about withdrawal problems and for what you may have observed in your practice. I fear your frustration and anger on behalf of injured patients has caused you to give up on treatment of post-withdrawal symptoms. There is a crying need for someone of your caliber to delve further into this. I beg you to persevere."

 

 

 

Thank you G, well found! 👍

[Rozon1]

Hey @Junglechicken I’m currently in the dilemma if I want to reinstate or not. I’ve been 3 months off. The anxiety has left but the physical symptoms just won’t let up. Afraid of reinstating due to it possibly not helping. When you reinstated did you feel immediate relief or no?

[Junglechicken]

10 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

Hey @Junglechicken I’m currently in the dilemma if I want to reinstate or not. I’ve been 3 months off. The anxiety has left but the physical symptoms just won’t let up. Afraid of reinstating due to it possibly not helping. When you reinstated did you feel immediate relief or no?

 

Hey Rozon,

 

Yes, I did feel almost immediate relief.

 

I re-instated 7 weeks following an incorrect taper (practically CT).

 

All the severe symptoms dissipated very quickly.

 

JC

[Giulietta]

28 minutes ago, Junglechicken said:

well found! 👍

 

Glad to have found it. It is way over my head. 😉

 

 

[Junglechicken]

Just now, Giulietta said:

 

Glad to have found it. It is way over my head. 😉

 

 

 

Some bedtime reading for me, lol!

 

I'm sure it isn't over your head G 😉

[Rozon1]

Hey @Junglechicken did you reinstate to the original dose you CTd from?

[Junglechicken]

5 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

Hey @Junglechicken did you reinstate to the original dose you CTd from?

 

Hey Rozon,

 

No, I jumped off at 5mg and re-instated at 2.5mg.

 

This was following the wonderful Mod's advice.

 

Is 18.75 Effexor a relatively high dose still?

 

JC

[Giulietta]

 

I thought this was a nice visual representation of Dysautonomia

 

[Junglechicken]

5 minutes ago, Giulietta said:

 

I don't understand the last sentence...that the problem is closer to the receptors or further from them. I am guessing the former - but not sure.  Embarrassed to ask.... 🤔

 

You're a fast reader G, I haven't started the article yet, lol 😆

 

Hmm, don't know the answer to that one.

 

We could use a "Dummy's Guide" to psychopharmacology and/or psychiatry?!?

[Rozon1]

hey @Junglechicken the lowest dose is 37.5 mg on effexor in a tablet form. 18.5mg would be half of the lowest perscribed dose.. They told me to do 1mg

[Junglechicken]

1 minute ago, Rozon1 said:

hey @Junglechicken the lowest dose is 37.5 mg on effexor in a tablet form. 18.5mg would be half of the lowest perscribed dose.. They told me to do 1mg

 

Thanks for explaining Rozon.

 

Who told you to do 1mg?

[Rozon1]

@Junglechicken a couple of the mods. Thanks for answering my questions. I really aprpeciate it. I'm having over active nervous system issues such as not feeling tired, insomnia, pounding heart, chill flashes. How is your life now compared to when you were going through all of this?

[Giulietta]

Just now, Junglechicken said:

You're a fast reader G,

 

I wish.  Recall (short-term memory) seems to be a bit of an issue these days 🙁 😎

 

 

 

 

[Junglechicken]

3 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

@Junglechicken a couple of the mods. Thanks for answering my questions. I really aprpeciate it. I'm having over active nervous system issues such as not feeling tired, insomnia, pounding heart, chill flashes. How is your life now compared to when you were going through all of this?

 

I see, by suggesting 1mg you can see how you feel and always increase the dose until you stabilise.

 

In answer to your question, I have much more of a life than I did during early WD and following stabilisation.

 

I didn't work for 3 yrs, and went through a number of major life events simultaneously which severely impacted my ability to heal.

 

I'm in a big wave now, but they are a lot less frequent.  They are still unpredictable, but ARE predictable in that they are always triggered by stress.

 

Also, my ability to cope has much improved following months and months of therapy, eating well, resting, exercise and general self-care.

 

The early days of WD are very frightening and disconcerting as it is all an unknown.  There is the feeling that your mind and body have taken over you, and you are looking in on them like a voyeur (aka DR/DP).

 

The further along the path of recovery you get, the more knowledge you acquire, and the more control (within reason) you have, most particularly over your mind.

 

My catastrophic thought processes back then, had me spinning back down into a black hole of despair on a regular basis.

 

But I'm still here, as are numerous others.