Rob: New here and Terrified

[Rob]

Hi All,

 

This is my first post here. I found the site while googling about if antidepressant use causes permanent brain damage.

 

I'm really scared and in need of some encouragement and maybe helpful data (feel free to move this to the appropriate forum area)...

 

I am a 39 year old male and I have suffered from Generalized Anxiety Disorder for 20 years in one form or another and I'm what you'd call a highly sensitive person. For 15 of those years I have let my gdoc prescribe me various antidepressants ranging from tricyclics in the earlier days to SSRI's and SNRI's over the last 10 years or so. I never took them properly and often quit them after only a month or two of using small doses (he never instructed me on how to take them and I didn't read the documentation). I've noticed that as i've gotten older I have been worse off each time I come off one. And in recent years it has started to feel more like mixed anxiety-depression. In 2008 I had my first major depressive episode and I've never felt quite the same since. In the last 3 years, I've used Cymbalta and Lexapro to "recover" from that episode (I took these properly and slowly tapered off both). However, when I came off each of them, within months I felt the mixed anxiety-depression coming back worse than before. Lexapro was the last one i was on and it has been about 5 months since I slowly tapered off. I have never been on a dosage higher than the minimum therapeutic level (for any of the AD's i've been on). I am currently feeling depressed and my anxiety is off the charts. I'm only taking Ambien, and this is out of absolute necessity to sleep right now.

 

I'm feeling the pull to call my doctor yet again and have him prescribe something new, just so i can remain functioning. But I don't want to perpetuate this problem. I have a wife and children, one of them with special needs, who I love more than words can express (I'm tearing up just thinking about them right now). I need to be able to provide for them and keep my job. But I don't want to keep damaging my health and my life by using antidepressants. I don't know who to turn to anymore. The doctors just want to keep me on antidepressants and/or tranquilizers to control the GAD. I don't know what to do and I just want to get healthy. I know my GAD is a life-long struggle that doesn't seem to be getting any better and yet the medications that treat it I believe are causing damage to my brain. Natural supplements don't seem to touch my problem with any therapeutic affect. I've tried numerous things there. I'm actually contemplating selling my home, leaving my well paid computer job, and doing some kind of manual labor just so i can alleviate some of what I'm feeling and try to get on the road to healing without AD's, but I know this would present a whole new array of stressors in our life. I'm a mess right now and I just need some encouragement and guidance.

 

I would like to remain a part of this community long term and work on a strategy to get the life back I had 15 years ago before I started taking AD's on and off.

 

Thank you guys for any help.

 

-Rob

[Rob]

I forgot to mention that I have developed some form of IBS. It feels like it all comes from my gut "brain" these days.

[ajay]

Hi Rob,

 

Hello and welcome to SA!

 

The more knowledgeable folks here will be along shortly, I'm sure. But I could see one challenge for you already. Going off ADs does seem to send a lot of us into high anxiety mode. So it may be that your GAD is returning... or it could be that your brain is readjusting to life without the ADs and part of this throwing your whole fight-or-flight system out of whack.

 

The insomnia and GI distress is pretty common, too. I hear you. Not that it makes it easier.

 

What have you tried besides meds for GAD? Any techniques? I know that when I'm in the throes of an anxiety attack, I just want it to stop. Now. But every med I have tried has resulted in a temporary relief that I pay for later. I'm trying to use meditation and conscious breathing...

 

OK, I don't know that I'm making sense right now. My intention is to let you know you're not alone. Please hang in there.

[Rob]

"every med I have tried has resulted in a temporary relief that I pay for later."

 

Thank you. You hit the nail on the head with that statement. Only in the last 3 years have I been trying other ways to treat it. Prayer, meditation, exercise etc. None of this is helping right now. I am trying to be consistent with it now.

[Altostrata]

Hello, Rob, welcome to the community.

 

It could be that, although you were taking "small" doses, your system is sensitive and every time you quit, you got withdrawal anxiety as a withdrawal symptom -- which sent you back onto a drug, lather, rinse, repeat.

 

What was your dosage of Lexapro and how long were you on it? How did you taper off it?

 

It sounds like you have withdrawal insomnia and gut problems? When did they start?

 

What is your sleep pattern like? What is your depression like?

[Rob]

Thanks for responding. I am highly sensitive to meds, yes. I worked up to 10mg of Lexapro. Before that it was 30mg of Cymbalta. Never higher on either.

 

The principle emotion I'm feeling right now is fear. I'm afraid of everything. I worry constantly, about my kids, my company, my mental health, whether or not I'll be able to function and provide for them, if i'll have normal emotions and thoughts ever again, etc. The pain in my gut is a

constant reminder. I cry (when the kids and wife aren't

around). Everything I built in my work does not interest me anymore. I just feel sick and terrified. And I feel overwhelmed by the responsibility on me.

 

The ambien keeps me asleep til about 5am usually. it's

losing it's effect, I can tell.

 

My fight or flight is definitely out of whack. it's like a sustained release of adrenal panic.

 

The only way I've been able to function is with the ambien and occasionally using a tiny amount of Klonipin. And forcing myself to run a few miles most days. And I know God is there. Somehow there is a purpose in this.

[Rob]

it's blurry now and I should have journaled it, but I took about 3 months to come off both those medications. The lexapro I cut down to about 2.5 for several weeks before stopping. No every other day with that. Always a daily intake.

[Rob]

the insomnia and gut problems started roughly 3 months or so ago. I've been remiss in not journaling this stuff.

[Nadia]

Hi Rob,

 

Welcome to the forum... I have in some ways a similar history to yours, except I started out with depression and now have anxiety. I have to say anxiety (with accompanying insomnia) is in some ways so much harder for me to deal with than depression (though the two combined is the real killer). And trying to figure out what exactly is the result of going off an AD and what is the original problem to begin with can be difficult. But plenty of what you describe sounds a lot like withdrawal stuff. Probably it is both things combined. It seems like for me and other people a lot of the worse insomnia and anxiety and weird symptoms started at the three month mark.

 

Right now nothing in terms of supplements like valerian or barbituates seems to help... if it does help it makes things worse in a few days, like my body fights against it. I've had people recommend Ambien to me, but I know it stops working and makes you dependent... it would be wonderful if you could find an alternative.

 

For what it is worth... things that DO help me (though by no means are they magic solutions):

 

1. Walking in the morning... you say you are running, which is good. Have you had your cortisol tested? Apparently that might be a factor with the insomnia and anxiety. Mine is pretty high. And apparently exercise is really good for that... AS LONG AS YOU DON'T OVERDO IT. Apparently you should not do more than 45 continuous minutes of aerobic exercise.

 

2. Acupuncture. This works wonders for me, though it doesn't last that long, but it is a godsend.

 

3. Meditation/breathing. I suck at it, but I try and try. I've been listening to alpha wave brain entrainment sounds while I do it (you can find them on YouTube) and it might be placebo, but it seems to help.

 

4. Acceptance. I think this was the hardest for me, but the one that really made a difference. I was in a state of such fear and horror (well, sometimes still am), and realizing I was just going to have to accept things as they are before anything was going to change really helped.

 

5. Massage.

 

6. Magnesium sulfate baths (see the symptoms and what helps section or put it in search).

 

Having to hold down a job is tough... I can't imagine having to take care of your family as well. That must be a lot of pressure.

 

I understand what you say about how nothing you do now at work seems interesting to you anymore... I would say hold off on making any big decisions on that (as I was also wisely counseled) because a lot of what you are feeling now is not REAL emotion. I mean, it's real in that it exists, but it is probably not how you would feel if your nervous system was in a healthy place.

 

Hang in there! There has to be a way out of this for us. I understand how scared you are... and how hopeless it can all seem. But you are not alone and there are things that can be done. It won't be a magic pill, but you can beat this.

[Rob]

as my ambien kicks in here while I lie on a cold floor on my back, I just want to say thank you. I'm so much more encouraged at the moment. Thanks everyone.

[Barbarannamated]

Rob,

I'm also new here and not able to add much except to say that you found the right group of people. I thought I knew a bit about psychopharm, having worked with psychiatrists, but the people here run rings around me and would lose 99% of docs and most pharmacists so fast, they wouldn't know what hit them!

 

I think you'll find an odd 'clearning in learning that your symptoms and experiences are shared by many here. The collective knowledge and empathy is amazing.

 

Take a breath~you're among people who really do understand, not thru books or classes, but 1st hand experience.

 

Look forward to learning more about the HSP aspect.

[Barbarannamated]

...that was supposed to say 'odd COMFORT'. Stupid autocomplete function!

[Rob]

I woke at 4am in panic, stomach a wreck. I took a fragment of Klonopin, then had fitfull sleep for another couple of hours. Woke up trembling, still am.

 

So here's where I'm at... i feel im in crisis mode now. I need to keep my job and provide for my family. Do I call the doctor and start a new round of another SSRI, and while on it, plan how to restructure my life so i can one day create the space to get off it and truly heal, or do I use benzos to get me through this phase of my life? I have

both Klonopin and Valium available and low doses are generally able to keep me stable.

 

I don't feel like I can make a decision in either direction as both scare the hell out of me. But I have to do one or the other. Thank you, guys.

 

I can't believe I have

to somehow work today.

[ajay]

Rob,

 

One thing people have told me - it's a lot less obvious to those outside of your head that anything is going on. In other words, you may not feel like you can do your work, but it may not be obvious to the people you work with.

Also, work may be a valuable distraction of sorts. I know it's very difficult to get out of your own head, but when your head is not a pleasant place to be, any distraction can help. You may be able to 'fake it' better than you think. Routine and having to interact with people can be a good thing when your mind feels like it's coming undone.

 

You also may have options between the all-or-nothing (work or not) scenarios. Can you hang in there long enough to think about/explore this? Now is a really bad time to make major decisions or changes.

 

Have you talked with your wife about this? Does she know what you're going through? I don't think it'd be fair to make any decisions without talking it out with her first and giving her a chance to add her perspective.

 

For what it's worth, I was doing okay until 3 months after going off ADs. Then I got hit with insomnia. I still don't know if the insomnia makes the anxiety worse, or if it's the other way around. In my personal experience (and I think that of others) WD makes us very sensitive to medications. I tried just about everything, but nothing worked for more than a day or two, and anything 'energizing' seemed to make the anxiety worse. Much of what you describe - feeling overwhelmed, loss of interest in work/hobbies, fear of everything, panic - describes me to a T. Except for the being able to go for runs part. I think that's *huge*, and I think exercise will be very helpful for you (though, as Nadia said, don't overdo it. Then I think you're at risk of raising cortisol).

 

There's a lot of info in the "symptoms and what helps' section on sleep. If you do decide on some of the supplement options (magnesium, melatonin, etc) I suggest you try one at a time and don't introduce a new thing for at least a week.

 

I've also had good luck with acupuncture. It doesn't always last, but even a short respite is helpful. There are some posts about that, too. Just remember that you want a calming, soothing treatment - nothing energizing or detoxing.

 

Wishing you some rest...

[Altostrata]

Rob, I am so sorry you are going through this.

 

Here's another problem when you get caught up in the web of psych meds: You may be experiencing tolerance and rebound insomnia from the Ambien.

 

In other words, your current drug may be your problem, adding to the problems created by your past drugs.

 

You can also get rebound anxiety from Klonopin, when it wears off.

 

This is the way these drugs make their own gravy: You take more drugs to counteract the adverse effect of the other drugs, they create their own adverse effects, etc.

 

Your nervous system has been sensitized by your drug history; this has exaggerated the anxiety symptoms. It's an unknown whether going back on an antidepressant will help you or make you worse.

 

You probably will need to withdraw gradually from the Ambien. It can cause physical dependency and is in fact an addictive drug (as is Klonopin). Your rebound insomnia may get worse in this period. If this affects your work, you may wish to take some time off.

 

The good news is, once you get past Ambien, some of your symptoms may get better.

[Rob]

Rob,

 

One thing people have told me - it's a lot less obvious to those outside of your head that anything is going on. In other words, you may not feel like you can do your work, but it may not be obvious to the people you work with.

Also, work may be a valuable distraction of sorts. I know it's very difficult to get out of your own head, but when your head is not a pleasant place to be, any distraction can help. You may be able to 'fake it' better than you think. Routine and having to interact with people can be a good thing when your mind feels like it's coming undone.

 

You also may have options between the all-or-nothing (work or not) scenarios. Can you hang in there long enough to think about/explore this? Now is a really bad time to make major decisions or changes.

 

Have you talked with your wife about this? Does she know what you're going through? I don't think it'd be fair to make any decisions without talking it out with her first and giving her a chance to add her perspective.

 

For what it's worth, I was doing okay until 3 months after going off ADs. Then I got hit with insomnia. I still don't know if the insomnia makes the anxiety worse, or if it's the other way around. In my personal experience (and I think that of others) WD makes us very sensitive to medications. I tried just about everything, but nothing worked for more than a day or two, and anything 'energizing' seemed to make the anxiety worse. Much of what you describe - feeling overwhelmed, loss of interest in work/hobbies, fear of everything, panic - describes me to a T. Except for the being able to go for runs part. I think that's *huge*, and I think exercise will be very helpful for you (though, as Nadia said, don't overdo it. Then I think you're at risk of raising cortisol).

 

There's a lot of info in the "symptoms and what helps' section on sleep. If you do decide on some of the supplement options (magnesium, melatonin, etc) I suggest you try one at a time and don't introduce a new thing for at least a week.

 

I've also had good luck with acupuncture. It doesn't always last, but even a short respite is helpful. There are some posts about that, too. Just remember that you want a calming, soothing treatment - nothing energizing or detoxing.

 

Wishing you some rest...

 

 

Yeah i've been faking it for a couple months now on the job. It's getting harder. I work from home so that makes it easier to hide the mess that i am right now.

 

My wife knows it all. I can't believe she has stayed with me. She supports any decision i make for the family. She's amazing.

 

Your situation sounds so much like mine. These two episodes both started with insomnia. And yeah it's a chicken or the egg scenario with insomnia and anxiety.

 

Sleep is the pivotal issue for me. If it goes badly it really screws up my head. I'm hyper sensitive to sleep. So i end up obsessing on it, then can't fall asleep and then end up with the Ambien. Getting to sleep and staying asleep is a central issue in this problem for me.

[tramond]

Hoi Rob! I am verry sorry what you are going through! I will say to you that Alto is absolutely wright! Benzos are a verry Bad solution wirft will bring you more and more Deep in a horrible scenario! I have eben on Benzos and Sudoku the Benzowd they Pit me on ADs just to get from one nightmare into the next! Please don't Walk the koppelte Way!!! Lovely greetings........tramond

[Rob]

Rob, I am so sorry you are going through this.

 

Here's another problem when you get caught up in the web of psych meds: You may be experiencing tolerance and rebound insomnia from the Ambien.

 

In other words, your current drug may be your problem, adding to the problems created by your past drugs.

 

You can also get rebound anxiety from Klonopin, when it wears off.

 

This is the way these drugs make their own gravy: You take more drugs to counteract the adverse effect of the other drugs, they create their own adverse effects, etc.

 

Your nervous system has been sensitized by your drug history; this has exaggerated the anxiety symptoms. It's an unknown whether going back on an antidepressant will help you or make you worse.

 

You probably will need to withdraw gradually from the Ambien. It can cause physical dependency and is in fact an addictive drug (as is Klonopin). Your rebound insomnia may get worse in this period. If this affects your work, you may wish to take some time off.

 

The good news is, once you get past Ambien, some of your symptoms may get better.

 

This all makes sense. I definitely get rebound anxiety when the Klonopin wears off. And I can only imagine how the Ambien is aggravating this whole issue.

 

I've been wondering if i should use the Valium as needed since it has a longer half-life and may help me more quickly stop using. The Ambien, yes I will start tapering.

 

The frightening thing is that I know how I'm going to feel, especially if i'm not sleeping. Insomnia induces panic in a massive way with me. I really need to take extended leave from my job to make this happen, but that is not an option for me (I'm self employed).

[Altostrata]

Rob, many of us have problems with the insomnia. It takes a special effort to calm oneself, as Nadia mentioned, through acceptance.

 

Even though you may not get enough sleep and you may feel lousy, you will be able to do more than you think. Do what you can to stay calm. We have a lot of discussions here about this, it's a challenge for all of us.

 

Nadia's post contains a lot of good suggestions.

 

Although they may not seem like much compared to the firepower of medications, gentle interventions often take the edge off symptoms. I used to sip magnesium citrate powder in ice water throughout the day to quell surges of anxiety. Fresh citrus (vitamin C) also opposes the anxiety hormone cortisol. (See this topic, Reducing cortisol levels.)

[Rob]

Fantastic. I will check that out. I used to be very much into supplements before my gut got ruined. I had been taking 1 gram of EPA only fish oil along with a whole foods multi and additional B, C, Zinc. Now, with my stomach sensitivity, i haven't been taking anything.

[Nadia]

I also work from home and have been "faking it"... it's a double-edged sword, like with anything else, because you can get away with a lot more and then it accumulates. But it's true what Ajay says, though... we might feel like we and everything around us is falling apart, but to your regular person who is not suffering from extreme anxiety, everything seems fine. So you seem fine, too. I have to remind myself of that all the time when I'm having a panic attack. Most I've had to do is say something I ate did not sit well with me and excuse myself to go to the bathroom.

 

I hear you about the sleep thing... all my life I have relied on sleep as my main "dealing" strategy. Now suddenly I can't get the sleep I need, and I wake up with huge waves of panic (though I have improved in a two steps forward one step back kind of way over the last month). It is really a living hell. And the anxiety magnifies it... not getting enough sleep can seem like the literal end of the world. What you need to do is remind yourself over and over that everything is really OK. The more you spiral in the panic about not getting sleep, the worse you'll feel. I know exactly how that goes...

 

It's really tough to change your mentality from expecting a solution from outside, something we had for so long (albeit imperfect and problematic) by taking a pill like Ambien or Valium or an antidepressant... and BOOM, that possibility is gone. For me, it has been a huge mourning process. BUT if you start looking at the options, which are slower and certainly not as drastic... you eventually realize that they are more powerful in the end. Instead of hammering your system into believing it's not anxious with a pill, you're going to gently guide it to calming down. What you learn to do is going to stay with you forever and it is not going to have side effects. Think of it that way.

 

So, first things first, even if you don't believe it, tell yourself... this is no big deal. Maybe I'm not going to sleep tonight, and I accept that. Trust in the universe. Things will fall into place. It might not be an easy road, but you're going to be OK.

 

What you need to do is come up with a strategy. Settle into the idea that your sleep is not going to fix itself overnight. Tapering off whatever you are taking really gradually is a good idea. And start right away with breathing exercises and other things. It's going to seem like none of it is really working for a while, but if you keep at it, it will help. Along the way, you have us to lean on, like we have you to lean on as well... I try to keep my chin up, but I break down pretty regularly and need encouragement... that's why I'm here now!

[Altostrata]

I say to myself: "I accept whatever the Sleep Fairy gives me."

[Nadia]

Good one...

[lupe]

I had horrible anxiety and panic attacks in the beginning of WD also starting in the AM after waking too, too early. I decided early on not to supplement with anti anxiety meds like lorazepam, valium etc that was offered because when AI read about it I learned that I would also have to slowly withdraw from them also. This withdrawal process is the worst thing ever for me... and I have been through a lot.... growing up in a family with mental illness, schizophrenic and BP family members and alcoholics, and I do not ever want to go through this again. The anxiety is horrible and I have it worst in the mornings. I do get better in the early evenings and afternoons. so I just hang in there until I get some relief. The first couple of months though was pretty constant and I did not think I would be able to keep working and kept thinking I was going to end up in the psych unit. I found a class on managing depression and anxiety and that gave me some life skills to use a long with some better ways to think. Positive self talk is very helpful to me. I realized that at work they had no idea what was going on inside of me... that it was happening inside my head.... that the world was not falling apart it only felt that way... to me. So I have hung in there at work (and also found it at times a great distraction) and am glad I have because I also am a sole bread winner and have people dependent on my income.

Sleep was impossible for me early on. I took about two years to taper off of trazodone that had been prescribed for sleep and had really bad withdrawal anxiety, nausea and insomnia just to name the worst symptoms here. I still wake some days early like 4AM with bad anxiety and I know it means for a bad morning but I hang in there, find distractions and tell myself over and over again that this will pass. I just cannot bring myself to turn to meds anymore for making me feel better. And trust me I would love to. I have constant pain from arthritis and fibromyalgia and can't hardly take anything for it because of the sensitivity I now have to any meds. Can't even take aspirin because it gives me weeping open sores after 3 days.!

There are a lot of really good posts on this site. It has helped me so much to be able to read others experiences and also the things they do that helps.

I have learned through research that the best treatment and most successful treatment they have for anxiety is cognitive behavioral therapy. Not drugs.

I am terrible at typing out my thoughts and I am sorry if this is too rambling.... but I just wanted to reiterate what some others have already said, hang in there, do not make any life changing decisions until symptoms recede, and they will!!!, and do everything you can to be good to yourself. I have done this by LIMITING STRESS!!!!! in any way I can. Eating healthy food and sleeping when I can.

I am getting better!!! Much better.

[Altostrata]

Thanks very much for that excellent post, lupe.

[bruno2016]

I was just reading through this thread and was wondering how things are going with you Rob? How are the gut problems? Have you started supplementing with a probiotic? I highly recommend this. How is your diet?