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Meimeiquest

Great article on tapering from Kelly Brogan, MD

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westcoast

She is a good, clear writer.

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AmyK

Yes, I read about her earlier, she is great!

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compsports

Too bad she can't be cloned.

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bromor

Excellent article!!! Had a consult with a functional med doc yesterday & this further confirms exactly what he told me!

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apace41

Excellent article!!! Had a consult with a functional med doc yesterday & this further confirms exactly what he told me!

 

Awesome that you have a doc who gets all that.  Have you provided the doctor's info so Alto can add to the list of AD wise docs?

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bromor

No ~ as he doesn't specialize in AD WD. But I was able to get testing done to see what I can do to help my body. What I found out is that I'm in adrenal fatigue stage 2 and have major hormone imbalance which causes further anxiety, panic attacks ect. I told him how I was so sensitive right now & he understood ~ and are taking the supplements/healing very slow. He recommended I stay on my ad until my body is healed. Crazy thing is that I had these symptoms to begin with .... Which is why I was put on the Zoloft. Really the doc should have not applied the "band aid" and found what was causing the symptoms!!! I am just a firm believer that many problems can be fixed with diet, supplements and counseling instead of handing out AD. And now I'm stepping down off my soapbox. *sorry!!

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Icandothis

Can't wait to read and digest this thank you Meimeiquest!

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nz11

Wow thanks for posting this.

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nz11

What a terrible admission  by Broggan

"I was taught to dismiss patients concerned about becoming “addicted” to psych meds, and to deny the possibility of protracted withdrawal, describing it only as evidence of that patients clear “need” for permanent medication treatment.

I was never taught how to taper."

 

Hey how come the link to 'support groups' is not working....

That should be a link to sa right.

Yet the link to beyond meds is working.....why is the link to sa not working??? hmmmm I am thinking that....

 

Later ...some guy by the name of Milton has gone in and provided the link to sa ...it is currently awaiting approval....well thats what a little bird told me.

I  look forward to seeing the link appear.

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apace41

NZ,

 

Look who made a comment back in February on her article and pointed out the same thing (that still hasn't been fixed):

 

 

Altostrata says

 

Thank you, Dr. Brogan, for your interest in this extremely important topic.

 

I founded the SurvivingAntidepressants.org peer support site (by the way, the link within your article above is broken). Here are a few points from my experience:

 

– A history of tapering that is not sufficiently gradual to minimize withdrawal symptoms very often leads to hypersensivities of all sorts, particularly to neuroactive drugs, supplements, herbs, etc. Consequently, all such should be used very carefully and at tiny exploratory dosages.

 

– While I applaud the interest alternative providers and orthomolecular practitioners have in tapering people off psychiatric drugs, I have not see orthomolecular treatment to be helpful. The high doses of supplements, etc. used in orthomolecular medicine can trigger adverse reactions in people whose nervous systems have been sensitized by changes in drugs and dosages.  (Dr. Prousky does not compare outcomes from those treated with his orthomolecular protocols with patients who tapered without such protocols. I can tell you with great confidence: It’s the tapering that’s the key to getting safely off psychiatric drugs, not the supplements.)  However, the tapering guidance concerned alternative practitioners may provide is very helpful.

 

– The assumption that drugs with longer half-lives incur less withdrawal difficulty, inherited from early antidepressant studies, may be wrong. Patients may not have been followed long enough to see what happens when the drug is finally completely metabolized. Withdrawal symptoms are often not immediately evident. On SurvivingAntidepressants.org, we do see withdrawal syndrome from Prozac and Valium, for example.

 

– Choosing which drug to taper first in polypharmacy situations is a complex consideration. These factors may indicate which drug is to be tapered first:

 

o A particular drug is causing identifiable adverse effects. (The Drug Interactions Checker at http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html is very informative. We may also look at P450 liver enzyme conflicts.)

 

o Which drug is most activating. Many people have a benzo or Seroquel (or both) added to an antidepressant or amphetamine analog to treat drug-induced anxiety or sleep problems. In those cases, we suggest tapering the antidepressant or amphetamine analog first, to preserve sleep — damaged sleep being a very, very common withdrawal symptom from all kinds of psychiatric drugs.

 

– “Increased rate of relapse” after treatment with psychiatric drugs is inherited from studies that did not take withdrawal syndrome into account. It’s highly likely a lot of that “relapse” was in fact withdrawal syndrome.

 

I agree completely that improving physical health and psychosocial coping strategies empowers people to come off psychiatric drugs safely.

 

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nz11

Been having a quick read of the link to J P and his tapering case studies....

172 Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine Vol 28, No 4, 2013

 

"Thus, it is possible and even conceivable that some patients cannot overcome their distressing psychological symptoms when discontinuing SSRI drugs due to the potentially brain-damaging effects resulting from their prolonged use."

 

I cant believe the speed of some of his taperings ..... and has a misplaced confidence in supplements.....

 

Great to see a person point out the obvious...

"(Dr. Prousky does not compare outcomes from those treated with his orthomolecular protocols with patients who tapered without such protocols. I can tell you with great confidence: It’s the tapering that’s the key to getting safely off psychiatric drugs, not the supplements.)" Alto.

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nz11

Oh Andy you posted while i typed....

 

Milton

 

Note to myself

nz11 stop jumping to comclusions ...that couldnt possibly be the reason the link wasnt working

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apace41

Yes, but I just posted to show that "Alto was here."  You identified a key flaw in the Prousky work and the fact that Alto identified it in her comments.

 

I also think the Prousky article and protocols are deficient and alarmist in the fact that they complete fail to take into consideration the notion of neuroplastic change such that, even if SSRIs were to cause damage, the notion that such damage cannot be overcome by changes at the neuronal level seems to fly in the face of the most recent findings of Doidge, etc. regarding neuroplasticity.

 

Andy

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nz11

Yes good point.

 

Prousky like others such as Shipko think that some people cant get off these drugs period.

However these people still imo cant conceive of tapers that go for years...the songbirds the Brassmonkeys of this world.

 

In 'case 5' Prousky took a person who had been on paxil for 8 yrs or so and tapered them off in 5 weeks....and then another 2 months using a prozac bridge.

Be interesting to find out where that person is at today...they were clearly suffering wdl but that appears to have been blamed on hormonal treatments....

 

"For each of the 14 tapering successes, orthomolecular and/or botanical treatments were customized to minimize withdrawal and support each patient’s capacity to emotionally regulate through the tapering process." 

Really!!!

 

He says he has had '14 successes ' well case 1 and 2 are only just off the drug we all know 6 weeks and 3 months drug free are early days....i wonder where these people are at now.

'Tapered off in 2013' yet he doesn't define 'tapered off' its as if its irrelevant.

 

Later ...still reading the Prousky article.....oh my goodness ...look at what Prousky did to case 13.. is this guy being supervised ?? and Prousky is the head of some hospital somewhere....'Chief Naturopathic Medical Officer, Professor, Canadian College'...ok so who supervisors the supervisors?

 

Case 13, 5 yrs zoloft use and Prousky tapered her in what appears to be a 2-3? month taper [cant find my calc at the moment but from memory 50 mg needs 38 months of tapering to 1mg if using the 10% method ...not 2.5 months]..... that is what  can put people in hospital...

"Patient began to taper off the PD in January 2013 and was fully off the PD by April 2013; destabilized in June 2013; resumed PD and the dose was escalated to 50 mg and patient became extremely suicidal 2 weeks later and went to the nearest hospital; PD switched to Prozac and patient currently taking 10 mg daily"...oops it did put her in hospital.

"Similarly, in Case 13, the patient had little difficulty tapering [!?!] and reported doing well for a couple of months following PD discontinuation.[!?!] Prior to tapering, we had a fulsome discussion about successful tapering [???] and wellness.She was advised to revisit regular counselling, a regular exercise plan, and to participate in some form of relaxation. She destabilized two months [no surprise ] following the tapering and neglected to take these additional steps that would have supported her and perhaps prevented the relapse. She is now on temporary leave from her full-time job. Following the relapse, she agreed that more resources were needed and that she also needed to address some very painful issues related to the loss of a close family member that occurred years earlier. She is currently participating in weekly psychotherapy, practicing mindfulness-based meditation, and regularly exercising, but felt the need to resume her PD."

 

Prousky is doing the typical doctor dodge he is blaming the patient and not the ridculous taper! that HE gave her. Her faulty cross wired concept of self has  surely been erroneously reinforced by Prousky using the 'relapse' word. Gee i loathe that word.

 

"The results showed that eight patients were able to remain functionally well following PD discontinuation, whereas the remaining six cases were not. Reasons for these different outcomes are discussed, and include: (1) problems in overcoming pharmacological dependence; (2) being psychologically dependent on being psychiatrically labeled; (3) not having a sufficient life strategy; and (4) being potentially brain-damaged from PDs."

Well what about a too fast taper??? do you think that could be a reason??

 

" In part, their ongoing mental stability can be attributed to their ongoing use of an individualized prescription of natural health products."
hmmm okaaaay.

 

Prousky finishes with "This paper can assist and empower clinicians to better understand some of the reasons why patients remain functionally well post-tapering and why other patients do not." hmmmm scary.
 

Brogan appropriately titled her blog 'stop the madness'

 

I also think the Prousky article and protocols are deficient and alarmist

Having now read it i would have to agree with you. It was pretty substandard really. imo

 

Sorry Andy ...am i being cynical?? ...again.

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apace41

Sorry Andy ...am i being cynical?? ...again.

 

LOL, Nz.  Only if "cynical" is synonymous with "spot on." 

 

This article points out the difficulty in changing the culture that surrounds these meds.  Even the people supposedly "in the know" and running projects to study this stuff are essentially clueless and causing more harm than good.  The number of docs, like Brogan, who recognize that this is a process that can take upwards of several years, are few and far between.

 

The "blame the patient" mantra is alive and well unfortunately.

 

Having said all that, what needs to be understood is WHY?  Why do some of us have protracted issues getting off while others, in the exact same situation from a time of use, dosage and approach to withdrawal, manage to get off over a short period scot free?  It is my belief that this goes to the area of individualized medicine and that if we had the tools to properly measure the right variables (need to figure those out -- of course need to understand how and why these f---ng meds actually work if and when they do) and how those variables apply in any given person, we could tailor withdrawal processes that get people off more safely.  It will take a long time before people care enough to do that and there will be a lot of damaged souls inbetween.

 

Andy

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Meimeiquest

I am going to throw this random idea out here (actually I have reasons for thinking it, but they don't matter). Inflammation seems to play a role in some depression and in mental illness in general. I wonder if some people have inflammation around the neuroreceptors, and that makes if harder for them to respond appropriately to changes in the chemical environment.

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nz11

Well some guy called Milton put the link up to sa and it was approved ...seems a bit odd that its taken nearly a year to get the link working.

Surely of all the links that would be the most important.

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ChessieCat

Three cheers for Milton!!!

 

CC

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nz11

Hip hip hooray !!

Talk about jumping behind the counter and getting things moving !!

Good on that chap Milton thats what i say. Let nothing stand in the way of allowing people to get to the truth.

Heres the thing ...it wasnt that difficult to organize.

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bromor

I am going to throw this random idea out here (actually I have reasons for thinking it, but they don't matter). Inflammation seems to play a role in some depression and in mental illness in general. I wonder if some people have inflammation around the neuroreceptors, and that makes if harder for them to respond appropriately to changes in the chemical environment.

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bromor

Yes ~ I have to say I agree with you. There are causes for why we originally had to go on meds. There are anxiety & panic symptoms BUT what is causing those? I firmly believe it's a combo of our thoughts & actual physical causes. Just my two cents :)

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apace41

For a great discussion on this issue, i.e., inflammation and the cytokine model of depression, listen to the following:

 

http://drpeterbregginshow.podbean.com/2013/07/24/the-dr-peter-breggin-hour-a-psychiatrist-in-transformation-072413/

 

This is a podcast on Peter Breggin's weekly show with Dr. Brogan who describes the process and how it might be working to cause physical precursors that allow for epigenetic expression in the form of anxiety, depression, etc.

 

Very informative (at least for me).

 

Andy

 

P.S.  If we are lucky, Milton will listen, like it and post the times within the podcast where key things are said.  He's WAY more diligent than I am.  LOL.

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nz11

Im not Milton but i did listen to it.

I have to say after listening to that i have fallen in love...with Breggin not Brogan. (that fooled you didnt it!)

Breggin was (inflammation) sceptical and so was i.  Loved the way Breggin was not intimidated by this fast talking New York academic and happy to challenge her.

 

Kelly comes across as very sharp quick thinking and a bit of a perfectionist  yet to post a broken link or let a broken link continue seems strangely odd and very un-Brogan-ish.  it shouldnt have to take a Milton to fix that. Even the reply to Alto seemed ...well odd or am i imagining things. I assume thats who she was replying to.

 

Yes there are some who are critical of Breggin but i think he is fantastic and after listening to that even more so.

Still i applaud Brogan she is clearly more noble than the rest of the tribe she has left ...

Living like 'A canary in  a coalmine' what a wonderful saying..

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Meimeiquest

I do think we are talking about two different animals when we talk about slow-tapering one drug versus six (that is what I was on). Five years apiece would be thirty years of tapering.

 

Just my experience, but orthomolecular supplements have changed my life, but tapering is still really, really hard. Interestingly, the last time I talked to that doctor, she said, "wow, that's a lot of changes," I had the idea she thought I was going too fast.

 

I see a doc now who has been trained by them, but he feels the gut is "ground zero" for many people from a physiological perspective. We had a supplement mishap out of town for Thanksgiving, and what developed was IBS symptoms, something I've never had in my life. I am wondering if the supplements are just covering underlying gut problems. But that is N=1 with lots of conjecture added in.

 

I just appreciate anyone who isn't matching diagnosis to drug, and new drug to side effects.

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apace41

Im not Milton but i did listen to it.

I have to say after listening to that i have fallen in love...with Breggin not Brogan. (that fooled you didnt it!)

Breggin was (inflammation) sceptical and so was i.  Loved the way Breggin was not intimidated by this fast talking New York academic and happy to challenge her.

 

Yes.  Fooled me big time.

 

Bregging intimidated?  Why would he be?  He's probably the biggest name in his "space."  Brogan was complimentary and very appropriately so.  She just has strong views and states them.  I thought it was a good dialogue.  Some of Breggin's views are, however, not consistent with current thought on things like autism, etc.  Doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong -- just not with the current mainstream.

 

Andy

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nz11

Breggin intimidated?  Why would he be?

Exactly...i didn't word that very  well did i ..

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nz11

http://kellybroganmd.com/snippet/ocd-cure-havent-heard/?utm_source=Kelly+Brogan+MD+Newsletter&utm_campaign=6ada62c799-The+Most+Effective+OCD+Treatment&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d0f977a8c5-6ada62c799-121781789

 

"Every time I have the thought that I want to harm my husband, I have to spend about 15-20 minutes organizing the utensils in our drawer just perfectly. It’s exhausting and so disturbing. I love him more than anyone in the world.”

For Amy, this was her daily reality, on 40mg of Prozac, when she presented to my office during her first pregnancy. The psychic distress around this daily experience of a mind persecuting itself is difficult to witness, and even more difficult to treat. In the case of this patient, full spectrum fatty acid replacement and a gluten/dairy/sugar free organic diet allowed   her to come off of medication and live, not only symptom-free, but vibrantly for the coming years."

 

!!!!?!!!

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Shep

I found some great videos with Dr. Kelly Brogan on the Joe Rogan show. 

 

CAUTION - Joe Rogan periodically uses profanity (and Dr. Brogan does a few times, too), so I'm adding this caution for anyone who is sensitive to language. 

 

Psych Meds: what you need to know  video (20 minutes)

 

She explains the link to violence and suicide and she says that long-term psych meds are harder to come off than oxycontin and crack. Brilliant truth telling! 

 

Joe Rogan & Kelly Brogan on the Placebo Effect video (10.5 minutes)

 

Those videos were just clips of the full show, so if you're interested, the full 3 hour episode is here:

 

 Joe Rogan Experience #968 - Kelly Brogan video (3 hours)

Edited by Shep
updated links

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apace41

Thanks for bringing this one back to my attention.  It is SO GOOD that it should be required viewing to become a member of SA.

 

Best,

 

Andy

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Gridley

Fantastic!  The 3-hour version was worth the time (though the host got a bit off course in the last hour).  

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manymoretodays

Okay!!  I'm just doing the old.....going to comment here, so I come back and watch some/all when I get a chance.

I don't mind profanity once in awhile.  Well situated and as emphasis.......

And I appreciate the resurrection of this topic as well.  Thank you.  I've read and watched some of Brogan.....and of course read some of Breggin.  And now there is Rogan.

Oh my......the host got a bit off topic........gasp!!!  B)

I'm a happy mmt for some strange reason......

L, P, H, and grrrowth and all that!

I think my GP has gone functional.....yay! 

On 12/11/2015 at 9:28 AM, apace41 said:

For a great discussion on this issue, i.e., inflammation and the cytokine model of depression, listen to the following:

 

http://drpeterbregginshow.podbean.com/2013/07/24/the-dr-peter-breggin-hour-a-psychiatrist-in-transformation-072413/

 

On 12/8/2015 at 6:17 PM, Meimeiquest said:

I am going to throw this random idea out here (actually I have reasons for thinking it, but they don't matter). Inflammation seems to play a role in some depression and in mental illness in general. I wonder if some people have inflammation around the neuroreceptors, and that makes if harder for them to respond appropriately to changes in the chemical environment.

I realize these ^ quotes are almost 3 years old, yet......appreciated........as I do need to make my own critical analysis here......

Thank you all.....

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Altostrata

As I've expressed before, I am dubious about the inflammation theory of depression. Our emotions are as old as the species, and if what they do is cause inflammation, then inflammation is normal.

 

This is not to say that there aren't physical diseases that actually do cause inflammation and depression -- but that's not what most people have when they're "depressed." The vast majority are perfectly healthy. And if you're feeling physically awful, I would argue it's normal to feel emotional distress from that, you're not feeling the emotion because of the inflammation, but because you don't like being sick.

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manymoretodays
19 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Our emotions are as old as the species, and if what they do is cause inflammation, then inflammation is normal.

 

Thank you Alto.  Love this ^

Appreciate and great respect for your wisdom/thoughts/ideas.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

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