HarleyW: I am a Psychologist that never heard of this until now

[HarleyW]

I have a degree in Counseling psychology and my expertise was in Psychopathology ( Bi polar, personality disorders, organic brain damage, neuropsych assessment etc.). In all my practice and years of study I never heard about prolonged discontinuation syndrome or met anyone with it but it appears that is what I have (from reading everyone else's experience). All I learned in College was that we really don't know and are just getting data in from long term use of anti depressants AND there are a small percentage of anecdotal stories that suggest long term affects. Other professors would admit they are over prescribed and we need to be careful.  I did know about acute withdrawal. Well documented, which is why tapering is always best. 

 

I have seen anti depressants save lives, including my own. Depression runs in my family pretty heavily. However, I have always felt they were way over prescribed!!!

 

The medical stance is supposed to be cost/benefit.

 

Well it appears I am one of the costs as many of us on here are.

 

I was DX with Cyclothymia and took a drug (I cant remember now what it was , brain fog) that reacted badly.  I was feeling suicidal, irritable etc. So instead of returning to the psych doc who was another 2 months out...I went back to my GP.

 

I started Prozac in 2005 20 then 40mg which helped take the edge off.

 

I was on 40 mg until last year when I switched to Viiibryd 40mg.  Supposed to be better with less side effects. I was also taking oral Dilaudid for chronic neck pain from 4, separate, rear end accidents. None my fault.  

 

I started having trouble sleeping last year, which turned into massive attacks in the middle of the night with High Blood Pressure, turning yellow and feeling like I was going to die.  I also started having minor panic attacks every time I took Dilaudid. I told my doctor and they all insisted it wasn't the meds, they all have relaxing effects (they said).  Finally after 8 trips to the ER and nearly dying, I did some research and I diagnosed myself with Serotonin syndrome. My doctors quickly agreed and I immediately went off all drugs. I expected to only have a few weeks of opiate and Anti depressant withdrawals.  

 

I started going to the gym and working out hard. I started only sleeping 4 hours per night (exactly timed, I have a CPAP that measures my sleep time) then going to the gym after 3 months became intolerable. I thought I was going to die.

 

I have helped and treated many folks with panic disorder but never had it myself. Which is why its next to impossible to know until I started being specific abut my symptoms and wrote them down.

 

I then diagnosed myself with a Panic Disorder as I met all the criteria and it dawned on me as I wrote it out. Of all things I thought I might possibly get (after doing many assessments on myself over the years) a panic disorder was the last on the list.

 

My doctor agreed again on my diagnosis (nice I had to discover all this my own eh?).  I have been taking 1 mg TID  (three times per day) of Xanax which helped me sleep more and manage the severe attacks. (so debilitating I was depersonalizing, curled up into a fetal position and felt a constant "scream" in my head."

 

I have dizziness, trouble sleeping, digestive issues, sensitivity to foods (especially sugar and caffeine) , severe panic attacks, brain fog, disorientation in space. Oddly enough I no longer have depression.

 

My doctor and all the docs I have seen since avoid the topic of drug side effects (likely fear of lawsuit) but none disagree that somehow I had the "perfect storm" that created the conditions I have now.

 

I have tried docs, naturopaths , energy healers etc. but it all still comes in waves and windows! 

 

After reading this forum and other sites... I am concluding that it just takes time and to do my best to limit psychoactive chemicals, eat light and healthy foods and know it will pass one day.

 

My brain fog is heavy this week so apologies if I didn't follow some of the Forum Guidelines. Honestly they won't stick with me right now (bad wave).  Next window I can clean up any mess.  thank you for this forum.  I have been lurking for some time but felt a need to connect with others experiencing the same thing.

[nz11]

Welcome HarleyW

So glad you found sa

 

I then diagnosed myself with a Panic Disorder as I met all the criteria and it dawned on me as I wrote it out. Of all things I thought I might possibly get (after doing many assessments on myself over the years) a panic disorder was the last on the list.

 

My doctor agreed again on my diagnosis (nice I had to discover all this my own eh?).  I have been taking 1 mg TID  (three times per day) of Xanax which helped me sleep more and manage the severe attacks. (so debilitating I was depersonalizing, curled up into a fetal position and felt a constant "scream" in my head."

 

I have dizziness, trouble sleeping, digestive issues, sensitivity to foods (especially sugar and caffeine) , severe panic attacks, brain fog, disorientation in space. Oddly enough I no longer have depression.

 

My doctor and all the docs I have seen since avoid the topic of drug side effects (likely fear of lawsuit) but none disagree that somehow I had the "perfect storm" that created the conditions I have now.

 

I have tried docs, naturopaths , energy healers etc. but it all still comes in waves and windows!

 

 

May i ask why you think you have Panic Disorder ...ok ok cos you tick all the dsm boxes but how can you diagnose a brain that has been altered by brain altering chemicals ...you CT of prozac right?? im making an assumption ...but even the drug companies say dont do that..... have you factored in wdl it can last for many months and years ....and what combination of drugs makes you think you have serotonin syndrome.

 

Have you considered the fact that you have protracted ssri withdrawal ? ie its not you its the drug (wdl).

Im sure if you think you have a disorder a doc will be happy to agree as it will allow him to avoid responsibility.

 

You might like to consider this excellent list of wdl symptoms

Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist (PDF)
 

in wdl i also was at times lying in a fetal position crying out  wanting to die...this is a classic wdl symptom.

Any 'crying spells' ? Have you heard of akathisia?

 

Here is an excellent piece well worth reading ..

Brain remodeling

 

Welcome, you are not alone.

You might like to put up a drug sig so people can see at a glance your context.

[HarleyW]

Welcome HarleyW

So glad you found sa

 

I then diagnosed myself with a Panic Disorder as I met all the criteria and it dawned on me as I wrote it out. Of all things I thought I might possibly get (after doing many assessments on myself over the years) a panic disorder was the last on the list.

 

My doctor agreed again on my diagnosis (nice I had to discover all this my own eh?).  I have been taking 1 mg TID  (three times per day) of Xanax which helped me sleep more and manage the severe attacks. (so debilitating I was depersonalizing, curled up into a fetal position and felt a constant "scream" in my head."

 

I have dizziness, trouble sleeping, digestive issues, sensitivity to foods (especially sugar and caffeine) , severe panic attacks, brain fog, disorientation in space. Oddly enough I no longer have depression.

 

My doctor and all the docs I have seen since avoid the topic of drug side effects (likely fear of lawsuit) but none disagree that somehow I had the "perfect storm" that created the conditions I have now.

 

I have tried docs, naturopaths , energy healers etc. but it all still comes in waves and windows!

 

 

May i ask why you think you have Panic Disorder ...ok ok cos you tick all the dsm boxes but how can you diagnose a brain that has been altered by brain altering chemicals ...you CT of prozac right?? im making an assumption ...but even the drug companies say dont do that..... have you factored in wdl it can last for many months and years ....and what combination of drugs makes you think you have serotonin syndrome.

 

Have you considered the fact that you have protracted ssri withdrawal ? ie its not you its the drug (wdl).

Im sure if you think you have a disorder a doc will be happy to agree as it will allow him to avoid responsibility.

 

You might like to consider this excellent list of wdl symptoms

Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist (PDF)

 

in wdl i also was at times lying in a fetal position crying out  wanting to die...this is a classic wdl symptom.

Any 'crying spells' ? Have you heard of akathisia?

 

Here is an excellent piece well worth reading ..

Brain remodeling

 

Welcome, you are not alone.

You might like to put up a drug sig so people can see at a glance your context.

Yes I do have Protracted SSRI withdrawal.  I have also heard it called Prolonged Discontinuation syndrome (mentioned above). I was also taking trazadone (didn't mention) and I definitely had several serotonin syndrome attacks. My panic attacks are most definitely from suddenly stopping the SSRI's. The panic attacks do stop or get slightly better after taking Xanax.  However, after reading over the last several months I think I have improved enough to start cutting down on the Xanax. Yes I had crying spells and minor akathisia.  The panic attacks are getting easier to manage. Also some anhedonia that is getting better. I am still in hell but doing better than I was 6 moths ago. When my fog passes I can probably do better at creating a signature and being more clear.   

[BlueLeader]

Harley, keep pushing through and doing what you need to do.

My drug history very similar to yours in that it was nearly a decade of use.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Harley,

 

Welcome to SA.  When you are able to instructions for creating your signature:  Withdrawal History in Signature OR Complete your Signature from Phone or Tablet

 

Wishing you all the best, CC

[Henk1980]

Hi Harley, 

 

 

I have a degree in Counseling psychology and my expertise was in Psychopathology ( Bi polar, personality disorders, organic brain damage, neuropsych assessment etc.). In all my practice and years of study I never heard about prolonged discontinuation syndrome or met anyone with it but it appears that is what I have (from reading everyone else's experience). All I learned in College was that we really don't know and are just getting data in from long term use of anti depressants AND there are a small percentage of anecdotal stories that suggest long term affects. Other professors would admit they are over prescribed and we need to be careful.  I did know about acute withdrawal. Well documented, which is why tapering is always best. 

 

 

 

Interesting background. So they tell you there is no data documenting the effects of long term use of AD's. That seems fair. They should start collecting data though. Hopefully they are. 

 

 

After reading this forum and other sites... I am concluding that it just takes time and to do my best to limit psychoactive chemicals, eat light and healthy foods and know it will pass one day.

 

 

That seems to be the best attitude to me. I concluded the same thing after reading posts on this site. 

 

Good luck!

 

Henk

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Harley.
 
You were turning yellow and your doctors didn't notice? For future reference: the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html

 

I think now you can see the extent of medicine's "expertise" about psychiatric drugs and disorders. We don't know what we don't know -- anosognosia.
 
When did you go off Dilaudid and Viibryd? What drugs are you taking now? When did you go off trazodone? How long have you been taking Xanax regularly?

 

What is your daily symptom pattern?

 

It's a good idea to exclude sugar, caffeine, and artificial flavorings from your food, eat simple, fresh food and lots of green leafy vegetables. This will help your body repair the neurological dysregulation from the adverse drug effects and then going off too fast.

 

You have "panic disorder" only in the sense that your destabilized nervous system is producing symptoms that resemble what psychiatry calls "panic disorder." See Neuro emotions

 

What is withdrawal syndrome?

 

The long-term effects are still being studied -- really? From what I can tell, psychiatry isn't very interested in this topic. There's still a complacent assumption that the drugs are seldom harmful.

 

I've collected a lot of papers in the From journals and scientific sources forum, you might wish to browse it regarding tachyphylaxis, tardive dysphoria, iatrogenic "apathy syndrome", post-SSRI sexual dysfunction (PSSD), and the like.

 

There are many papers about withdrawal syndrome, a hot topic in the early 2000s when psychiatry was shocked shocked shocked that SSRIs were not all they were promised to be, but this didn't make much of a dent given the flood of pharma propaganda released to counter it. And doctors still don't have a clue about tapering.

[btdt]

Hi Harley and welcome to SA... a lot of soldiers here carrying on.  There have been a couple withdrawal law suits dealing with ssri drugs but not many since wd was added to the list of problems on the label.. many of us have been hurt by these drugs long before the labels were changed and still struggle yet here we are.  At least you could tolerate the benzo that is something that helped you I would not be too fast to get off it if I were you... there is a special place here for people dealing with benzo wd take a look at that page. 

It may be that I am quick to stick to things anything that helps cause nothing helped me benzos when tried went paradoxal on me... but had they worked I may be on them still... it is a long time to suffer... wd can take years. 

The other thing many fail to realize is the wd from ads is a long term thing and if the benzo is helping you survive the ad wd stopping it espeically stopping it too fast while it is masking the ad wd could bring on another perfect storm you do not need. Please seek advice about this from those here who know.  We can only do best guessing and it takes time to get to know a person and the entire situation on a site like this but those in the know here will know the right questions to ask you so they can advise you with the best guess based on ...so many who came before you.. 

please take advantage of the expertise you will find here I wish you peace

[btdt]

you may want to take a look at Serotonin Syndrome the understanding of it has changed and a new way of evaluating people shows a lot of symptoms that did not use to be in the criteria I am sure it is here some place cause I put it here years ago when I was sure I had it and no doctor thought I did.

peace 

[KarenB]

Hello Harley and welcome to s/a,

 

It must be fascinating to be your own case-study, though I bet you wish you weren't .  I'm glad you've been having a read around the site.  I found this place to be a life-saver when I first came here. 

 

Panic attacks - yuck.  I had my first one when I started getting adverse reactions to Effexor and continued to have them while tapering, but they have lessened off greatly.  Yours should ease too, once you stabilise somewhat.  When you are stable we recommend tapering by no more than 10% of your current dose.  

 

Would this be the basic summary of your drugs?  It would be useful to know dates for all the changes, and when you did that CT (once that brain fog clears).

 

2005-2014 Prozac, last dose 40mg

2014 - Switch to Viiibryd 40mg, then CT.

Start 3mg xanax per day.

 

If you are still getting w/d symptoms then it might pay to wait a bit more before tapering.  It makes things better down the track.  Also, if you are still doing intense exercise you might find that makes symptoms worse.  Gentle exercise is better for not activating your CNS.  Fish oil and magnesium are helpful to many people. 

 

Let us know how you are getting on.  This thread will be your journal to record your progress, and ask any questions you have.

 

Best wishes,

KarenB

[nz11]

oops Harley i missed the fact you diagnosed yourself with protracted wdl syndrome. You got that one spot on.

 

Hey just wanted to rec a book 'Anatomy of an epidemic' by R whitaker.

pg 297 he talks about the benzo trap and looks at the xanax study.

 

Wishing you strength.

 

Whitaker has a whole chapter on 'the bipolar boom' be interesting to know if you have found similar findings in your work.

[AprilShowers]

Hi Harley, 

 

Sorry to hear you're having a bad time. Take care of yourself and support your body while it heals. We all only knew what we'd been told when we took these drugs and none of us expected to end up in this position dealing with symptoms usually far in excess of the depressions or anxieties we began with so whether you had training or not doesn't matter in the end we all got sucker punched by circumstances we weren't aware of, you have found support now and anecdotal as it might be the information here on this forum is very helpful to recovery and the people here wonderfully supportive.  

[HarleyW]

thank you everyone for these tips and advice and concern.  I read every single one.  I am still in a brain fog so cannot properly respond to each one.  I will say, yes ...this is interesting being my own case study. I now know what panic attacks feel like , withdrawals feel like etc. I have far more empathy than ever.  To be clear I stopped taking all drugs at once last January. I had to because of the seratonin Syndrome.  I could not taper.   I am on nothing but Xanax right now (prn).  I have to take this just to function but know i am probably prolonging things by doing so. I just go by how I feel in my body.  Thank you for all the valuable research links.  I did find some recent studies on long term effects of SSRI use.  So it is being studied but NOT generally recognized (for obvious reasons of money, lawsuits etc.). I am so glad to hear form each of you that this will pass one day. I also like reading about comparing how I feel now to 6 months ago instead of last week. I am getting better but its all waves and windows. My wife is sick of me, my kids have accepted i am just "sick" all the time.  I have a young son who is only 2 and half of his life his dad had been nearly a vegetable. I have been very desperate to function and have tried many supplements, natural remedies etc. This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do.

[HarleyW]

Welcome, Harley.

 

You were turning yellow and your doctors didn't notice? For future reference: the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html

 

I think now you can see the extent of medicine's "expertise" about psychiatric drugs and disorders. We don't know what we don't know -- anosognosia.

 

When did you go off Dilaudid and Viibryd? What drugs are you taking now? When did you go off trazodone? How long have you been taking Xanax regularly?

 

What is your daily symptom pattern?

 

It's a good idea to exclude sugar, caffeine, and artificial flavorings from your food, eat simple, fresh food and lots of green leafy vegetables. This will help your body repair the neurological dysregulation from the adverse drug effects and then going off too fast.

 

You have "panic disorder" only in the sense that your destabilized nervous system is producing symptoms that resemble what psychiatry calls "panic disorder." See Neuro emotions

 

What is withdrawal syndrome?

 

The long-term effects are still being studied -- really? From what I can tell, psychiatry isn't very interested in this topic. There's still a complacent assumption that the drugs are seldom harmful.

 

I've collected a lot of papers in the From journals and scientific sources forum, you might wish to browse it regarding tachyphylaxis, tardive dysphoria, iatrogenic "apathy syndrome", post-SSRI sexual dysfunction (PSSD), and the like.

 

There are many papers about withdrawal syndrome, a hot topic in the early 2000s when psychiatry was shocked shocked shocked that SSRIs were not all they were promised to be, but this didn't make much of a dent given the flood of pharma propaganda released to counter it. And doctors still don't have a clue about tapering.

I turned yellow at home and reported to the doctors who did a liver function test two days later and only saw slightly elevated enzymes. With Seratonin Syndrome it can temporarily or permenantly shut your body or parts of your body down. It was shutting down my liver and Kidneys from time to time and casuing my BP to shoot up to 220 over 115 (highest)

[Altostrata]

Well, you can see the limitations of what is commonly known about psychiatric drugs.

 

When did you go off Dilaudid and Viibryd? What drugs are you taking now? When did you go off trazodone? How long have you been taking Xanax regularly?

 

What is your daily symptom pattern?

[bubble]

It would be helpful to have the information that Alto asks about in your signature: Please put your withdrawal history in your signature

 

A lot of things started making sense to us when we came here. 

 

As a Xanax victim I would like to warn you about dangers of taking Xanax. There is a benzo subforum here where we could look at your Xanax situation in  more detail.

 

Bubble

[Vonnegutjunky]

Horrible story - I feel for you Harley - one thing I learned is that the people who run this site know what they are talking about -

Glad you found it xo

[JanCarol]

Harley, I'm glad you've found us!

You wrote:

 

 

 I am on nothing but Xanax right now (prn).  

 

Xanax is famous for it's short half life.  That means that - if you are taking it once a day, the rest of the day will be in panic and anxiety, often more intense (interdose withdrawal) than if you hadn't taken it at all.  It is better to split your dose into 3 doses per day.  Sometimes 2x a day will cover it, 3x a day will be smoother.

 

Right now, you need smooth.  Taking Xanax PRN is giving you spikes and valleys in your symptoms - even worse if it is a day on, day off - wait until you can't stand it anymore, then take a xanax, whew.  Then in 4-6 hours it wears off and starts again.  This could be intensifying your "panic attacks."  (paradox, from Whitaker's excellent "Anatomy of an Epdemic":  these drugs seems to PRODUCE the very symptoms they are being taken to relieve)

 

Steady as she goes - it would be better take smaller doses more regularly.

 

That is, provided you are prepared to be dependent upon xanax for later tapering and possible withdrawal, as Bubble warns.  

 

Sorry to overwhelm you - it's rare when we see a bird of your type in this forum!