Wrenster: Struggling and feeling like giving up

[wrenster]

Hi

i really hope someone answers this post aa i m so confused and nearly at the point of going back on the tablets due to feeling i m relapsing. How can i tell if this is withdrawal or relapse?

I was on sertraline since the age of 17 and i m 36. I had three huge depressive episodes where i was suicidal and ended up on psych wards. These relapses always coincided with coming off antidepressants which i have then had to recommence.

i understand everyone in here feels that any reoccurence of low mood is related to withdrawal but how can you be so sure?

I came off sertraline 4 months ago after reducing it gradually over 4 months. I was on 50mg. I did a month at 3 qrts of tablet. A month on half and a month on a quarter. I realise now even that was too fast but i didn havecany support or advice at that point. I only found this forum after id done it.

My mood and anxiety levels have steadily got worse over the last couple of months although i did have a period of 3 weeks when i felt good. A night out with friends drinkin knocked me back. I have n drunk since but my mood hasnt improved. I ruminate constantly, feel irritable, angry, poor tolerance, am tearful frequently. I am a psychiatric nurse and have to hold myself together all day for my patients and collapse in a heap at night. The agitation is the worse. Being physically sick with anxiety.

Thevworst thing is only my partner and a couple of close friends know. I cant get treatment from nhs due to my job. My partner is at the end of his tether and says i need admitting to an institution! As i have voiced to him that i feelbi d be better off dead and due to his lack of understanding he obviously thinks i m mad

I really need some advice as i m steps away from reinstating the meds. I cant cope with this suffering anymore and i xant function day to day like this in my job or life. Please please help

[brassmonkey]

Hi Wrenster--  welcome to the group.  I'm so sorry to hear that you're having such a tough time with the WDs. There are several key elements to tell the WDs from your "original condition".  For many the "original condition" had nothing to do with the symptoms they feel in WD. Did you have depression or anxiety before starting the drugs?  Symptoms in WD are MUCH worse than the "original condition". Symptoms in WD don't respond to self talk.  And as you pointed out they hit  after you stopped taking the drugs, a classic sign.  We have a good thread that explains a lot more:

 

What is withdrawal syndrome? 

 

Reinstating a small amount is probably your best bet to feeling better. These drugs work by making physical changes to the brain.  Those changes require to presence of the drug to function "properly".  Remove the drug and the brain literally can't work right and causes a lot of trouble.  Remove the drug slowly and the brain has a chance to undo the changes and maintain some similence (spell checker has no clue) of proper function.

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms 

 

Tips for tapering off Zoloft (sertraline)

 

That's enough reading for now, check those out and then ask a lot of questions.

 

Also if you would please fill out a signature block, it will really help us to help you:

 

 

Please put your withdrawal history in your signature

 

[wrenster]

Thanks for the reply and tips regarding reinstating although i would struggle working out such a small amount out of a 50 mg tablet. With regards to the symptoms i felt before i started the tablets over 18 years ago. I find it hard to remember how it felt but i do know this feels a lot worse than anything i ve ever felt.

the worst thing is havin a boyfriend who cant give me the support i need. He s never known me depressed and doesn deal well with emotional things. I m really suffering today and thoughts have crossed my mind that i cant carry on.

[brassmonkey]

I can understand the trouble remembering how you felt way back when.  It's been 24 years for me, so it's just a shadowy area. I find it best not to dwell on it, just use it for reference.  So much water under the bridge and times are so different now.  But from what you are able to recall it really points to the drugs being the problem.

 

Making smaller doses out of big ones is our specialty.  To do a proper taper takes rather precise control of the dose.  There are several methods to use:

 

How to make a liquid from tablets or capsules

Using a digital scale to measure doses

Compounding pharmacies (US, UK, and elsewhere)

 

Personal relationships have a really tough time of it during WD. It comes down to personal trust, commitment and communication.  Unfortunately some of us men types are really bad with the emotional communication which doesn't help.  He is always welcome to drop in here for a read which might help him understand some.

 

When it comes down to it, you'll find the strength needed to do what ever needs to be done, and in the process amaze yourself.

[brassmonkey]

I added your name to the thread title so it will be easier for you to find.  This thread will become your journal for keeping notes, asking questions, ranting, raving and making friends.

[dalsaan]

Hi Wrenster

 

The tips for tapering off Zoloft (posted above) has info on how to turn your tablets into liquids which makes it much easier to measure smaller doses.

 

Also you might try fish oil and magnesium. Many people find these help.

 

You can get through this and we are here to help. What are your thoughts on making your own liquid Zoloft and reinstating on that

 

Dalsaan

[wrenster]

Thank you so much for replying. Its the first time i ve felt heard and understood regarding this. I m not sure about reinstating it at the moment. Its been over four months. But if i do the digital scales might be an idea. I ve just spent the last hour cuddling the dog which helped somewhat. Then he came in. I tried explaining to him how i was and what was causing it. I tried to tell him all i needed was for him to hug me and tell me it would be alright. He then said 'this has been going on yor months, think about me. ' 'your always blaming me' i tried to explain i needed him to try and understand and not tell me to stop being like this when i cant help it. It ended in an arguement as usual.

He wont read this. He wants me to stop talking about it. I cant.

I live in northern ireland and my parents are in england. My mum was always the biggest support but she s been losing her memory,probable alzheimers. I cant worry her. I have a couple ofvsupportive friends who try and understagd.

i ve been crying since last night. Here it comes again. I think i m going to take a sleeping pill. A one off. I need to give my head a rest. Nothing is working. I hate him right now for giving up on me and not being there.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Hi Wrenster, 

 

I am so glad you found your way here, but I am also very sad for what you are going through.  It certainly doesn't help that you are in this situation with your boyfriend, adding more stress to your withdrawal.  Added stressors make WD worse.  

 

I have found this common:  family and friends think you should be "over it" by now because they think it is all about the drug being in your system, and once it is out everything should go back to normal.  As brassmonkey explained, the drug's function caused physiological changes in your nervous system, and it doesn't change back quickly once the drug is out of the system.  Imagine a vine growing on a trellis, with the drug being the trellis.  Remove the trellis and the vine collapses.  

 

Unfortunately, everyone thinks that being done with the drug means that recovery will be quick and linear, but in fact, fast tapers and cold turkeys lead to longer protracted withdrawal with more severe symptoms, rather paradoxical.  For this reason, it is often recommended here that the patient take a very small reinstatement dose to alleviate the worst withdrawal symptoms, and to then do a very slow taper off.  Though you took four months to come off 50 mg, which sounds reasonably slow, the fact that you were on the drug for nine years means your brain got very dependent to its presence, and so it will need an extra careful reduction to adapt back.  

 

True, the drugs aren't sold in increments small enough to do a proper taper.    Brassmonkey gave you the links about how to take control of this situation taper-wise.  

 

Reinstatement may not work, but that is why it is recommended to try a very tiny dose to see if it gives any help.  If it causes problems, you stop.  It can take four days for the drug to come up to a steady level.  Usually, if reinstatement is going to work, it would make you feel better within that time frame, correct me if I'm wrong, Everyone!

 

I reinstated after 10 months off of Effexor, and it worked for me.  Problem was, I didn't have this info and I was reinstated at the minimum effective dose, 37.5 mg, so I have all that way to come back. In protracted WD I also had depression and anxiety for worse than ever before, including a feeling of doom, and the feeling that I couldn't continue living like this.  You will quickly find that you are one of MANY here that have felt just the way you are now.  

 

I'm guessing to maybe try no more than 5 mg, since you came down from 50.  Believe me, if you can get relief and have the luxury of controlling how you taper off in a more gentle way such that you hardly feel WD, then it seems a no-brainer.  It is your choice, but just remember that there is no trophy for toughing it out, and toughing it out won't necessarily mean it will be over sooner.

 

We are all here for you!  We recommend that you spend some time reading some of the Success Stories so that you can see that many were as far down as you but recovered.  No one can predict how your recovery will go, but recover you will, and we will be here for you along the way.

 

SG

[wrenster]

Thank you SG. You ve certainly given me some good advice,as have you all. Wish you were all my family members and friends here. I certainly will consider reinstatement .i need to read the taper guidelines again. Thanks again. You ve given me hope

[wrenster]

I m thinking of making it into a liquid and read that post but cant seem to get my head round it.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Wrenster, what size tablet do you have and what dosage are you aiming for?  Do you have access to a syringe for measuring/dosing?

 

You don't even know one, really.  The main thing is to have a known volume and a way to measure a fraction of that known volume.  Let me know and I will help you through :-)

 

SG

[nz11]

Here's one suggestion and i think the easiest way to go

 

(from the above i assume you have  supply of  50mg ?)

 

if so then put your 50mg pill in 50ml of water you now have 1:1 dilution.

 

1 mg = 1 ml.

50 mg =50 ml

 

You will need to decide if you are going to reinstate, if so then at what dose

 

If you want to take 'x' mg say then take 'x' ml  out of the 50ml solute (mixture you just made up).

 

I am a psychiatric nurse

So you are mixing with the people who prescribe this stuff right?

What is their opinion.

 

Sorry you are in this terrible situation ....and still holding down a job ..wow!

Welcome,

Bet you have seen a lot of patients go through this ? Did you realize this horror show is  iatrogenic (doctor caused) ? ...hey maybe more accurately we could give it the name 'pharma-genic' what about 'pharma-kosis' ....

[wrenster]

It made sense after reading your futher posts. I therefore just took 5mg via syringe. To be honest i m tempted to go back on the full dose if this doesn help. I can honestly say i m not coping at all. I ve retreated to bed after huge arguements with my boyfriend due to his lack of support. He cant evenmanage to put his arm round me. I m better off alone and suffering alone.

NZ11 yes i m a psych nurse. Nobody i work with bar one person knows my issues. I m all mixed up regarding the medication. I personally feel i would n be alive today if it was n for sertraline. I feel it helped me enormously. I certainly dont like this person i ve become without it.

[wrenster]

I m all confused at the min and dont know whats right or wrong.

[wrenster]

Does nobody on this site feel some people need these meds forever? I m in two minds. I dont know whats right

[wrenster]

I m supposed to go into work tmrw. 4 days till xmas and my relationships broken down and so have i.

[wrenster]

NZ the people who prescribe it,as you well know, dont believe in protracted withdrawal. I dont even know if i do at the min. Please help

[SquirrellyGirl]

Hi wrenster, 

 

There is nothing wrong with deciding to go back on.  It is really about what you feel is best for you. Nobody here will judge you for that.  If you do go back to the full amount you were on, you now have the information you need for the future should you decide to try again. I would say that with your sensitivity, it would mean tapering at less than 5% per month.  I don't think you are relapsing, but your system has become very dependent on it's being there.  Part of the effect of being off of it is that the imbalance changes your thinking; if you can get stable back on, you will level out and regain perspective and rationality.  You can regroup and decide what you want to do from there.

 

The fact that you had crashes after coming off in the past, resulting in hospitalizations, means your system is very sensitive and dependent.  What that means is that your system really needs it for continued normal functioning. There is no judgement in that.  It isn't that you will relapse your original condition without it, but that your system has been set up now that it crashes without the drug - it's about the drug, not you and your original problem.  I have read more than once people stating that it is much harder coming off of ADs than even heroin (their having done that before!).  How did recovery go after those hospitalizations?  If you were reinstated at the hospitalizations, how long did it take for reinstatement to work?  What was that process like?  In the past, what was the dose that you came off of, how long were you off before crashing, and what dose were you put on with reinstatement?  

 

I believe you when you say the drug helped you.  What I hate is that doctors don't give informed consent about the implications of being on these drugs for long periods and don't acknowledge that in fact they are very hard to come off of and that for some, they may never be able to get off. They leave us between a rock and a hard place, because once you have been on them you are on the hamster wheel, so to speak.

 

As for your relationship, that is a separate issue, but this situation has shown you who he really is in times of need.  I'm sorry about that.  

 

I'm sorry that the forum has been quiet while you were posting here.  I hope that I was able to offer some kind of comfort.  

 

SG

[SquirrellyGirl]

I reread your post about taking the 5 mg.  Let us know how you are doing with that.  I hope that is all you need :-)

 

SG

[nz11]

“Awww! But I was going into Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!!!”  and your post caught my eye.

 

Sorry you are suffering like this.

 

I feel like Luke Skywalker trying to pull someone from the dark side

 

Why do you think this is not withdrawal? Did you read the link from jedi master Brassmonkey.

 

I think its time to unleash the Force! Cos ...“Somebody has to save our skins.” – Leia Organa

 

Getting off these drugs is not a matter of luck or hit or miss it takes planning determination time and resolve ...

 

“In my experience there is no such thing as luck.” – Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

 

 

Here are two of my  favourite double bladed spinning lightsabers.....they can predict and deflect incoming blaster bolts.

Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

 

And here is the other....it can redifine false paradigms...in a flash...  Brain remodeling

 

So you are a psychiatric nurse are you telling me that in your training you were taught nothing zero zip zilch on ssri withdrawal? Oh yeah sorry you are taught to call it  'relapse' right? And stay on your drugs  indefinitely.

This is not relapse this is a most serious iatrogenic injury. Its not you its the drug (withdrawal). “It’s not my fault.” – Han Solo

 

..... some people need these meds forever?

“That’s not true.”  Luke Skywalker

 

This view may look appealing on the surface (removing all responsibility or control of your life  and resolve or chance for personal growth in tough times....reinforcing a false concept of faulty cross wired self)...but it has serious negative consequences .

 

“So this is how liberty dies…with thunderous applause.” – Padmé Amidala

 

All i can say with this thinking is ...“It’s a trap!” – Admiral Ackbar

 

Don't let anyone (pharma marketing depts or doctors) pull the wool over your eyes ..“Mind tricks don’t work on me.” – Watto

 

I can only speak for myself but my Jedi knight opinion is 'these are not forever drugs they are for never drugs. '

They are not fit for purpose.

There may be some who think these drugs are to be used only short term like 1-2 weeks for extreme states and always with a plan to taper off.

Healy has very damning words regarding the zoloft drug trials in his book Pharmageddon.....where he talks about this ...'criminal offence".

 

I m all confused at the min and dont know whats right or wrong.

 

“I find your lack of faith disturbing.” – Darth Vader

In withdrawal its critical what voices we listen to. You may be  listening to the wrong voices.

 

Take control of your fate Wrenstar....“Your focus determines your reality.” – Qui-Gon Jinn

 

Are you able to spend time reading the links given and look at other peoples signatures.

Then you will start to see the light.

 

 

Don't forget ...“Your eyes can deceive you. Don’t trust them.” – Obi-Wan Kenobi .

Go with your gut feeling.

 

I certainly dont like this person i ve become without it.

“Only at the end do you realize the power of the Dark Side.”

 

I m supposed to go into work tmrw. 4 days till xmas and my relationships broken down and so have i.

It sounds like you feel you are walking down a dark alley. Are you saying you've ..." got a bad feeling about this.” 

 

Heres hoping some relief is found in the low dose reinstatement

 

Wishing you strength.

nz11

Now where did i put that 'crossguard' lightsaber, oh for goodness sake  ...“Would somebody get this big walking carpet out of my way?!”

[wrenster]

Thanks for the responses. I ve had two sleepless nights and can hardly think of much of a coherent response at this time but i really appreciate your replies and have taken them on board. SG YOU ARE SO WISE. I did reinstate as stated so i will see how this pans out after 4 days or so i want to try and see if it gets any better before i start on them again properly as i know this withdrawal could put me off trying ever again. I m not great at sufferin. Whenever i ve come off them in the past i ve always 'relapsed' after a few months but i get what your saying about my brain becoming dependent on them. If i could hang on in there maybe it ll get easier. Thank god for you guys or i d have gone straight back on them

[wrenster]

NZ YOUR POST WAS SO HELPFUL. Justa question regarding the liquid formula i made with the sertraline. Can i keep it in the fridge for tmrw or do i need to make fresh batches every day?

[nz11]

Very good question,

I'll get back to you on that ....

 

Later.......“Now, witness the power of this fully operational battle station.”

 

"Most homemade solutions may keep for at least a few days, refrigerated. Drugs tend to be degraded by heat and light, which is why pharmacy containers are tinted."

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2693-how-to-make-a-liquid-from-tablets-or-capsules/

 

Good luck

 

oh yeah ...Thanks for the kind words ...phew !..(that was lucky)...you're welcome.

note to myself ..

“Great, kid. Don’t get cocky.” – Han Solo

“Stay on target.” – Gold Five

 

nz11

 

"This is a new day, a new beginning.” – Ahsoka Tano

[SquirrellyGirl]

nz11, thanks for hopping on the tread and bringing some levity to the situation, made me smile, too!  Love the Star Wars quotes!  Can't wait to see the new one!

 

Wrenster, are you able to make a solution using half a pill rather than a whole one?  That way, you can throw away the excess liquid after a couple of days and have plenty left over to make more solutions.  Don't want to risk day 3 being weak and messing you up further.  Also, whatever container you use, you can wrap it in tin foil to block the light out.

 

We're here for you, just know that!  We're all on this boat together :-)

 

SG

[nz11]

“Wait. I know that laugh…”  Thanks SG.

“This is some rescue!”

 

sorry for the delay, with light speed  alacrity I was trying to expediate my reply.

“Apology accepted, Captain Needa.”

 

SG That was a good idea about cut the pill in half to cut back on wastage.

 

Shem just wanted to gently point out (im sure you are aware of it anyway ) that to keep the 1:1 dilution on a 25mg you will need to put it into 25ml of water.

 

If you put the 25mg into 50ml then it now becomes a 1mg : 2ml dilution, eg 5mg will be 10ml.

 

nz11

“For over a thousand generations, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic — before the dark times. Before the (Pharma)-Empire.”

[wrenster]

Aw thanks guys for that solution. Yes nz i hadn thought of that so thanks for pointing it out. Your star wars quotes really cheered me up. I m feeling more settled tonight and my partner has stepped up and given me some support which has really helped my mindset as its one less worry in the mix. I m gonna try and get some sleep tonight to help me cope with work tmrw. Thanks for keepin me goin. To think i was nearly talked into seeing my gp tmrw who would have tried to put me straight back on them. I ll let you know if the reinstatement helps. Any thoughts on alcohol. I m aware of the xmas period and drinks being put in front of me. Is it best to abstain completely

[nz11]

 Any thoughts on alcohol.

 

".....A Jedi craves not these things.”

 

“Your weapon… you will not need it.”

 

“STAY ON TARGET.”

 

nz11

“I’m [nz11]? I’m here to rescue you!” “…You’re who?”

[wrenster]

Things are only getting worse. I couldn see patients today due to severe anxiety and tearfulness. I ve had to go home sick. I dont know what i m going to tell my manager. I m going to have to see the gp tmrw as i ll need a sickline and no doubt they ll urge me to go back on the pills as has my work colleague. She also doesn understand withdrawal. I cant go on like this as its ruining my life. I cant see how i can keep off the pills

[wrenster]

Now the stress of work has been removed feel some relief. The hardest symptom lately has been the constant tearfulness for four days straight and incredible irritabilty. I dont feel clinically depressed but i kept worrying the constant teafulness was signalling clinical depression. I just want relief from these symptoms so i can cope with my responsibilities. Its all very well to have withdrawal if you have a life that can give you space to rest and relax when you need it or without any pyschosocial stressors such as a highly stressful job but i dont have that luxury .

[nz11]

Things are only getting worse

I am so sorry you are having to go through this.

 

i kept worrying the constant teafulness was signalling clinical depression.

“That’s not true.”  Luke Skywalker

 

Tearfulness is a classic withdrawal symptom....its not you its the drug withdrawal.

"It's true. All of it. The Dark Side, the Jedi. They're real."   Hans Solo

 

Are you able to look at the link i gave on Glenmullens 58 withdrawal symptoms ...what symptom was number one on the list?

 

Are you able to click on that link and read it maybe print it out.. "Do. Or do not. There is no try.” – Yoda

 

Wrenster in your work have you ever heard this word used./defined........'akathisia'

[wrenster]

Nz. Thank god for your reply. Yes i read all your links. Crying spells was number one. Yes i ve heard of inner restlessness -akathisia and i definetly have this.

[wrenster]

What are your thoughts on me reinstating a therapeutic dose of sertraline and tapering off more gradually x

[SquirrellyGirl]

Hi Wrenster, 

 

I totally get where you are coming from, as you don't have the luxury of not working to get through withdrawal.  I totally appreciate nz11's efforts to support you with getitng off the meds, but at the same time it may just not be the right time for you to do so, with an unsupportive boyfriend and having to remain functional.

 

Just a question:  when you got tearful at work and got stressed out, what was going through your mind?  I know that it is terribly difficult because when you are in withdrawal, the mind takes on a life of its own and often refuses to be thwarted from its neuro-emotions.  But anyone can develop awareness, and you have to at least try.

 

What I mean by this is that it is the thoughts that create suffering.  Try to think of it like you've got this WD entity in your head that has hijacked you, taken the controls, but you can observe it and tell it "I see what you are trying to do, but I don't buy it!"

 

It was that entity that caused you to get tearful and need to leave work. 

 

My WD entity hijacked my brain this morning and caused some tearfulness, but then I just let the feelings roll by and I have moved on, now.  It is a skill that requires some development.  I have found the teachings of Eckhart Tolle paramount in that.  Eckhart calls that "entity" the "thought form."  

 

Here's one to get started:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze0-vGa-MQ8

 

As much as you can tackle this concept, the better, because even if you reinstate the full amount of drug, it might not work or it might take time to stabilize.  Either way, you have to deal with this new internal landscape and find ways to comfort yourself and not let it get the better of you.  Developing presence is probably the best way to do this!  Do know that this internal state is NOT for forever, absolutely not!  You are healing but ealing simply takes time.

 

Even if you reinstate fully, you now have the power to take it as slow and long as is needed to taper off this drug; you are not relegated to a lifetime of taking it.

 

It may just be that given your situation, you will need to do a micro-micro-taper, where so little is taken away each month that your system just doesn't notice.  Take away the pressure of any kind of deadline.

 

I hope this helped!  I'm glad you've settled a bit at home.

 

SG

[wrenster]

Hi SG thanks for your much appreciated input . I have found the tearfulness has had a mind of its own lately and has been so frequent and incontrollable with very little break from it. It comes alongside the inner restlessness. I m am a great advocate of mindfulness meditation and have used this throughout my life very successfully . I have to admit my practise of this has waned recently and i ll try to get back to it. The neuro emotions are much harder to settle and adhere to sense then any emotions i ve ever felt. My anxiety increases due to falling into the thoughts which tell me 'it ll be back, this will last forever, this is your personality without tablets therefore if you dont take them, you ll always be like this' . These thoughts over whelme me and i beleive them most of the time. I ve had years of the medical model drummed into me although i ve always questioned it.

[wrenster]

I have to say my partner has turned a corner and is trying to be there. I have told him just to hug me and sit with me when i ask him. He s doing that now and its a huge help.

I think your right SG about my life circumstances being not ideal for withdrawal. I dont think they ever will be. I m 36 now and we were planning on trying for a baby next year which isvanother reason i wanted to be off them. If somebody could give me a timescale of putting up with this torture it would make it easier to hold on. I know they cant.

[wrenster]

I m sorry this has been all about me. I dont knowvwhat i d have done without you guys the last few days.