max Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Hi folks glad to see so many other people in same boat as myself. I would like to get opinions on these side effects from taking psychiatric medications. When I wake up after a good nights rest, I don't feel good. This impacts my mood for the rest of the day exercise doesn't make me feel good I don't feel tired without sleep (this is the one which I am most worried about) Are these side effects permanent or will I return to normal after some time? Is there anything I can do to feel normal again? It is very strange that lack of sleep doesn't make me feel tired. I am worried that there is serious permanent iatrogenic damage done to my mind and body. Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
nz11 Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Hi max.. I saw these words the other day 'exercise intolerance' maybe thats what we have. I need to read up on that. Every thing thats strange seems to occur when exposed to this stuff so no it doesnt seem strnage to me. Did the doctor give you a taper plan. Whats the reason for these antipsychotic drugs. "It is a mistake to assume that individuals require many months or years of antipsychotic medication.....individual and family therapy can be used to treat acute psychotic episodes without resort to medication" Breggin 2013 Would you like to consider a taper...as per rec here.. Tips for tapering off Seroquel (quetiapine) Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing. http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651 Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos. Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you Recovering paxil addict None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped." Dr Mosher. Me too! Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015 I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015 Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017 Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus KarenB Posted December 22, 2015 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted December 22, 2015 Welcome Max, Glad to have you here. Yes, this 'boat' is getting very full. Luckily some people have recovered well and swum off to lovely distant islands... Firstly, you will recover from these withdrawal symptoms but you will need some patience and a little self-care. I'd say you don't feel rested after your sleep because meds often cause sleep disturbances - so even if we slept, we may not get the the deepness of sleep required. Exercise can be troublesome because it is actually very activating to our central nervous system. When we are in w/d our CNS is already on edge, so too much exercise can push it over, giving us more w/d symptoms. Gentle exercise such as walking or restorative yoga is recommended. There are things you can do to ease your way a bit. Check out this Symptoms and Self-care thread. Many people find fish-oil and magnesium helpful. Our brains are very capable of healing over time. I see you have stopped Clopixol. Are you getting many w/d symptoms now? Are you planning to taper Seroquel at some point? If so, we recommend a 10% taper each 4-6 weeks. NZ has given you a good link to read. When you've done that you can come back here and ask any questions you may have. This can be your journal to record your healing progress. Welcome to s/a KarenB 2010 Fluoxetine 20mg. 2011 Escitalopram 20mg. 2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS. Effexor 150mg. 2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants. Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms). 8 month hold. 2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent). 2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well. Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea. 2023 December - Now on 5 micro-beads Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops. Symptoms begin to increase. 2024 April - Updosed to 6 microbeads - immediate increase in symptoms for 4 days. Decreased to 5 microbeads. 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.' Dr Gabor Mate. Link to comment
Sarabera Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Max, I believe the body has incredible powers of regeneration. All of the cells in your body (except a very few) eventually are regenerated, so yes, you will recover!. It sounds like the quality of the sleep you are getting is not good, probably because of the meds you are on. My sleep can be all over the place--night before last had nothing, last night slept pretty darn good! I also get that feeling at night that I'm just not tired, so I pick up a book and read. But be thankful that you are getting sleep, and do the best you can to keep on a strict sleep schedule. I agree that vigorous exercise is not necessary if it is uncomfortable--just walking around is great exercise. Are you avoiding all stimulants, such as coffee? Sarah 1975--first signs of depression 1981--started on imipramine (Tofranil) for IBS and depression 1983-1986--severe depression, rotated through several drugs, on MAOI for one year, eventually back to tricyclics 1986-1994--chronic low grade depression, on tricyclics 1994-96--severe depression, rotated through several drugs inc. Prozax, Effexor, etc.. 1996-2013--chronic low grade depression, SAD, on amitryptiline usual dose 12.5-25mg flurazepam (Dalmane) as needed for insomnia 2013--developed temazepam (Restoril) dependance for 2 months, tapered off over 1 month started bio-identical progesterone 5 mg., depression has lifted completely to this day March 2016--forced to c/t both amitryptiline and flurazepam, zolpidem not helpful reinstated small dose (.5 mg) amitryptiline due to stomach issues and tapering w/titration June 19th--jumped from amitryptiline--drug free! Link to comment
max Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 Hi max.. I saw these words the other day 'exercise intolerance' maybe thats what we have. I need to read up on that. Every thing thats strange seems to occur when exposed to this stuff so no it doesnt seem strnage to me. Did the doctor give you a taper plan. Whats the reason for these antipsychotic drugs. "It is a mistake to assume that individuals require many months or years of antipsychotic medication.....individual and family therapy can be used to treat acute psychotic episodes without resort to medication" Breggin 2013 Would you like to consider a taper...as per rec here.. Tips for tapering off Seroquel (quetiapine) No the doctor hasn't given me a taper plan. Without the 50mg seroquel I cannot sleep so I don't know how long I'll be on the seroquel. Even without sleep I don't feel tired which I don't understand. Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
max Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 I see you have stopped Clopixol. Are you getting many w/d symptoms now? Are you planning to taper Seroquel at some point? If so, we recommend a 10% taper each 4-6 weeks. NZ has given you a good link to read. When you've done that you can come back here and ask any questions you may have. This can be your journal to record your healing progress. Welcome to s/a KarenB Hi KarenB, I'm not noticing an wd symptoms from the clopixol, other than my mood has declined. I'm a good bit more argumentative now, I've started arguing with my father again, which happened the last time I withdrew from antipsychotics, in 2014. I've been hospitalized three times for psychosis, however the last time I was hospitalized I was not psychotic. Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
max Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 Are you avoiding all stimulants, such as coffee? Sarah Hi Sarabera I drink one/two cups of coffee a day and maybe two cups of tea a day. Why do you reckon I should avoid stimulants? Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
Sarabera Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Max, Those of us with fragile nervous systems, from drugs, depression or whatever, oftentimes don't do well with stimulants like caffeine. Here's a thread about that topic: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3106-caffeine-in-coffee-or-tea-tolerance-issues/ It could also reduce the quality of your sleep (as does alcohol). You might think about cutting back (taper), or at least imbibe earlier in the day so it can get through your system (not talking about booze for breakfast!---coffee) . Hope that is helpful for you! Sarah 1975--first signs of depression 1981--started on imipramine (Tofranil) for IBS and depression 1983-1986--severe depression, rotated through several drugs, on MAOI for one year, eventually back to tricyclics 1986-1994--chronic low grade depression, on tricyclics 1994-96--severe depression, rotated through several drugs inc. Prozax, Effexor, etc.. 1996-2013--chronic low grade depression, SAD, on amitryptiline usual dose 12.5-25mg flurazepam (Dalmane) as needed for insomnia 2013--developed temazepam (Restoril) dependance for 2 months, tapered off over 1 month started bio-identical progesterone 5 mg., depression has lifted completely to this day March 2016--forced to c/t both amitryptiline and flurazepam, zolpidem not helpful reinstated small dose (.5 mg) amitryptiline due to stomach issues and tapering w/titration June 19th--jumped from amitryptiline--drug free! Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Petunia Posted December 24, 2015 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted December 24, 2015 Hi folks glad to see so many other people in same boat as myself. I would like to get opinions on these side effects from taking psychiatric medications. When I wake up after a good nights rest, I don't feel good. This impacts my mood for the rest of the day exercise doesn't make me feel good I don't feel tired without sleep (this is the one which I am most worried about) Are these side effects permanent or will I return to normal after some time? Is there anything I can do to feel normal again? It is very strange that lack of sleep doesn't make me feel tired. I am worried that there is serious permanent iatrogenic damage done to my mind and body. Hi Max, I was wondering, did these side effects start while you were taking Clopixol or just since the Seroquel? When you say you don't feel good when you wake up, could you explain that more and does this feeling pass as the day progresses? When did your insomnia first start? All psychiatric medication has side effects and the anti-psychotics have some of the worst ones, usually they are dose related and if you can be on the lowest possible dose, the side effects often decrease. Don't worry, these effects are rarely permanent, you will recover, especially since you haven't been on these drugs for long. By tapering carefully off the seroquel, you will slowly be able to sleep naturally again. I don't know why you started on these medications to begin with, but whatever it was, you will need to find alternative methods for overcoming these problems or issues if they come back. By tapering very carefully, it can often prevent original or similar symptoms returning due to withdrawal effects. Some people have a bad reaction to illicit drug use, start behaving in unusual ways or having problems functioning, and then end up with a psychiatric diagnosis and run the risk of being medicated for life. If this is your situation, and I'm not assuming it was. Staying away from what caused the reaction in the first place is the best way to avoid having a recurrence once recovered. As Sarabera mentioned, substances such as caffeine and alcohol can effect recovery and the ability to stabilize properly once medication free, so it might be something you want to consider, especially when you start your seroquel taper. I'm not a doctor. My comments are not medical advise. These are my opinions based on my own experience and what I've learned. Please discuss your situation with a medical practitioner who has knowledge of tapering and withdrawal...if you are lucky enough to find one. My Introduction Thread Full Drug and Withdrawal History Brief Summary Several SSRIs for 13 years starting 1997 (for mild to moderate partly situational anxiety) Xanax PRN ~ Various other drugs over the years for side effects 2 month 'taper' off Lexapro 2010 Short acute withdrawal, followed by 2 -3 months of improvement then delayed protracted withdrawal DX ADHD followed by several years of stimulants and other drugs trying to manage increasing symptoms Failed reinstatement of Lexapro and trial of Prozac (became suicidal) May 2013 Found SA, learned about withdrawal, stopped taking drugs...healing begins. Protracted withdrawal, with a very sensitized nervous system, slowly recovering as time passes Supplements which have helped: Vitamin C, Magnesium, Taurine Bad reactions: Many supplements but mostly fish oil and Vitamin D June 2016 - Started daily juicing, mostly vegetables and lots of greens. Aug 2016 - Oct 2016 Best window ever, felt almost completely recovered Oct 2016 -Symptoms returned - bad days and less bad days. April 2018 - No windows, but significant improvement, it feels like permanent full recovery is close. VIDEO: Where did the chemical imbalance theory come from? VIDEO: How are psychiatric diagnoses made? VIDEO: Why do psychiatric drugs have withdrawal syndromes? VIDEO: Can psychiatric drugs cause long-lasting negative effects? VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes Link to comment
max Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 Max, Those of us with fragile nervous systems, from drugs, depression or whatever, oftentimes don't do well with stimulants like caffeine. Here's a thread about that topic: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3106-caffeine-in-coffee-or-tea-tolerance-issues/ It could also reduce the quality of your sleep (as does alcohol). You might think about cutting back (taper), or at least imbibe earlier in the day so it can get through your system (not talking about booze for breakfast!---coffee) . Hope that is helpful for you! Sarah How do you know if you have a fragile nervous system? I drank one cup of coffee this morning and that is my usual amount, sometimes I have two but that is if I am feeling tired. Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
max Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 Hi folks glad to see so many other people in same boat as myself. I would like to get opinions on these side effects from taking psychiatric medications. When I wake up after a good nights rest, I don't feel good. This impacts my mood for the rest of the day exercise doesn't make me feel good I don't feel tired without sleep (this is the one which I am most worried about) Are these side effects permanent or will I return to normal after some time? Is there anything I can do to feel normal again? It is very strange that lack of sleep doesn't make me feel tired. I am worried that there is serious permanent iatrogenic damage done to my mind and body. Hi Max, I was wondering, did these side effects start while you were taking Clopixol or just since the Seroquel? When you say you don't feel good when you wake up, could you explain that more and does this feeling pass as the day progresses? When did your insomnia first start? All psychiatric medication has side effects and the anti-psychotics have some of the worst ones, usually they are dose related and if you can be on the lowest possible dose, the side effects often decrease. Don't worry, these effects are rarely permanent, you will recover, especially since you haven't been on these drugs for long. By tapering carefully off the seroquel, you will slowly be able to sleep naturally again. I don't know why you started on these medications to begin with, but whatever it was, you will need to find alternative methods for overcoming these problems or issues if they come back. By tapering very carefully, it can often prevent original or similar symptoms returning due to withdrawal effects. Some people have a bad reaction to illicit drug use, start behaving in unusual ways or having problems functioning, and then end up with a psychiatric diagnosis and run the risk of being medicated for life. If this is your situation, and I'm not assuming it was. Staying away from what caused the reaction in the first place is the best way to avoid having a recurrence once recovered. As Sarabera mentioned, substances such as caffeine and alcohol can effect recovery and the ability to stabilize properly once medication free, so it might be something you want to consider, especially when you start your seroquel taper. Hi Petunia, I am taking these medications for a diagnosis of schizo-affective disorder. My psychosis happened in September 2012 when I was involuntarily hospitalized. The psychosis came about when i was smoking an excessive amount of indica cannabis in south east asia. I spent three months of being stoned all day every day and thought that a famous football club wanted me to play for them. The police detained me and put me into hospital for two months. I had a few teeth removed in April 2014 and I think it was then I started to notice the 'feel good when waking up' had departed. Before then, when I'd wake up after a good nights sleep, i would feel good and refreshed. Now I don't feel anything when I wake up and it's more like I am numbed. I started on the clopixol a few months later and it could be this as well, I'm not sure but I think it started when I had the teeth removed. The insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion in October 2015. I had extreme insomnia and they moved me off of the depot and onto the seroquel. I am only on the seroquel a couple of months but cannot sleep without it. I don't understand how I can go days without sleep and not feel tired. Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted December 24, 2015 Administrator Share Posted December 24, 2015 Welcome, Max. A psychiatric diagnosis is inappropriate when the condition could be a drug reaction, legal or illegal. However, it's up to you to manage your behavior so you won't be hospitalized again, because even an erroneous diagnosis will be taken as license to treat you with more drugs. Why were you hospitalized this last time, when you weren't psychotic? Your nervous system has been sensitized by drugs. That is why you can be sleepless but still "wired"; your natural sleep mechanism is not working. Does this still happen now that you're taking Seroquel? This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
max Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 Welcome, Max. A psychiatric diagnosis is inappropriate when the condition could be a drug reaction, legal or illegal. However, it's up to you to manage your behavior so you won't be hospitalized again, because even an erroneous diagnosis will be taken as license to treat you with more drugs. Why were you hospitalized this last time, when you weren't psychotic? Your nervous system has been sensitized by drugs. That is why you can be sleepless but still "wired"; your natural sleep mechanism is not working. Does this still happen now that you're taking Seroquel? Hi Altostrata, and thanks for your reply, My doctor decided that I needed to be hospitalized after I poured wine over my father and threw a punch at my brother, and I wasn't taking the medication. The doctor conducted a very inadequate examination of me and didn't ask me any questions when he came to my house. He had his mind made up before he ever saw me (mostly due to me not taking the medications). Does what still happen now that I'm taking seroquel? Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
Destroyed Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 this will not be helpful to you but i am never tired either, although my sleep is better i never ever get tired even after hot yoga. i am battling all sorts of damage. all the best in your recovery. May 2012 Olanzapine and other anti depressants. Don't know what they were. Sertraline, Flupentixol, Sodium Valporate, Depixol, Lithium, Piportal, Mirtazapine, Lamotrogine, Venlafaxine, Respirodol ECT x 7. Don't know the dates of any of these medications because I can't remember and I have no idea of the doses either. Am no longer on any meds. Take Cod liver oil, Omega 3, B1, Sepia. Still in rehab under section 3 in the UK. I have access to my phone and the house phone and email. Symptoms 110bpm, memory loss, severe anhedonia, no motivation, poor sleep, loss of hobbies and interests including music. Things that have come back are appetite and feeling the cold and my muscles. Nothings gonna hurt me with my eyes shut, I can see through them, I can see through them - Years and Years 2015 Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted December 25, 2015 Administrator Share Posted December 25, 2015 max, are you still having sleep problems, now that you're taking Seroquel? What is your current symptom pattern? This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
max Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share Posted December 26, 2015 max, are you still having sleep problems, now that you're taking Seroquel? What is your current symptom pattern? My sleep is fine now with the seroquel. Symptom pattern - I feel the same throughout the day, my mood or feelings don't change throughout the day Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted December 26, 2015 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted December 26, 2015 Hi Max, I've just been reading through your posts and noticed: The insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion in October 2015. It might be a good idea to put that in your Signature Block. Symptom pattern: how are you feeling a different times throughout the day, that happen each day. CC * NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA * MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment
max Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share Posted December 26, 2015 this will not be helpful to you but i am never tired either, although my sleep is better i never ever get tired even after hot yoga. i am battling all sorts of damage. all the best in your recovery. Hi Destroyed, for how long have you been feeling this 'never get tired' symptom? Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
max Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share Posted December 26, 2015 Hi Max, I've just been reading through your posts and noticed: The insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion in October 2015. It might be a good idea to put that in your Signature Block. Symptom pattern: how are you feeling a different times throughout the day, that happen each day. CC Ok Chessie I've changed my signature thanks Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
max Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 How long will it take for my brain to return to normal? Or have I incurred the permanent brain damage that some people talk about on other websites? Clopixol 300mg/ml depot injection once every three weeks since August 2014, last injection and ceased on September 7, 2015 Insomnia started when I took one injection of xeplion on 1 October 2015 Currently taking 50mg seroquel nightly since October 13, 2015, to help with sleep Link to comment
Albin Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Curious to know aswell @max and @Altostrata. Scavenging the forum to try to find a person that has survived clopixol injections, but not yet to find anyone. 2018: 17 December 1 pill Lexapro 10mg, 22-26 december 10 mg Olanzapine. Imovane 10 mg between December-March. 2019: Injection cicordinol in February. Supplements taken during December-Januari (2018-2019). Gotu Kola, Mucuna Pruriens, Magnesium, Zinc, Curcummin, Omega 3, K2, D3 Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted October 25, 2019 Administrator Share Posted October 25, 2019 I hope @max returns to tell us what's happened since 2016. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
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