Tilea: Tapering venlafaxine

[KarenB]

One more thought ... B Vitamins can be very activating too.  Keep checking in to let us know how it goes on 6 beads, and making those other supplement adjustments. 

[JanCarol]

Hey Tilea,

You ask:

I was also wondering about Inositol and l-theanine as others have used them for anxiety, etc.   Would that be ok to try.   I have in the past but for only a couple of days and again was not sure if I was in a wave or it didn't agree with me.   I think you need to take it for a while to see results....not sure.   I wish there was something that would help with the anxiety and it seems to drive all my symptoms.   Thank you again for all your help.  

 

Ooh, your system is very reactive now.  I'm a huge fan of both of these aminos, but - I would not advise them until you are more settled.

 

You know how when you're cooking something, and it doesn't taste right, so you add more salt.  Ooops, too much salt, add some Tabasco - oh, that didn't help at all, what about cinnamon, worcestershire, onion, garlic, ginger, etc?  Until you've got everything except the kitchen sink in the soup, and it tastes worse than before?  Be sparse with your ingredients.  It is easier to not put them in the soup to begin with, than it is to sort it out after they're already in the soup.

 

Our salt and pepper here at SA are Magnesium and Omega-3 fish oil - the other supplements are more complex, and you need to know what you are reacting to first, before considering anything else.

 

FOOD sources of inositol and theanine might be a good way to test the waters.  Does having a cup of lemon balm or green tea feel beneficial? (these are theanine sources)  As it is only a food, and not "supplement strength" - if you react it will be clear of your system in a few hours.  Small amounts of inositol can be found in food sources such as:   beef heart, desiccated liver, wheat germ, sunflower seeds, soy or sunflower lecithin oil, liver, brown rice, cereals, citrus fruits, nuts, molasses, green leaf vegetables, whole grain bread and soy flour. 

 

But before you pile these things into your diet, let's get you settled down first.  That means as simple recipe as possible, until we can figure out what you are reacting to

 

How's the 6 beads?  Any better?  

[Tilea]

Thanks you everyone for your support and info.    I have been taking all the supplements I listed basically from day one of tapering and some even before.   I will sometimes take a break from them and then start up again, slowly.   I had a dr. appt the other day and we decided to change my BP med....to metropolol, but the last two days I seem to have a lot more chest pain, difficulty breathing and more muscle pain and hand pain.....just not feeling right.   So I will have to go back to furosemide and make any more changes.   So I didn't do the 6 beads yesterday and may wait on that till I feel a bit better with this chest stuff.  Just reading some other posts....should I not try to stabilize on the 7 beads before starting to decrease?   Not sure what to do....I haven't  tried any of the other supplements, either....Is there anything else for this anxiety that is with me from the time I wake till bedtime, other than a window and they are few and far between??

[KarenB]

Anxiety can be a 'biggie' to overcome, and we certainly can't do it all at once.  What we can do is find out what tools might suit us, and start to practice those.  In my nest of tools I have yoga, meditation, writing, cycling - and many other little things.  There are heaps of ideas at my favourite SA thread:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1112-non-drug-techniques-to-cope-with-emotional-symptoms/  

 

Little by little you can learn ways to manage it, and those small successes will boost your confidence to continue.  I can also recommend magnesium and / or epsom salt baths. 

 

The reason for reducing to 6 beads was that it seemed you may have been reacting adversely at 7 beads.  What is your feeling on that?  If you do feel stable enough, then by all means continue to stablise on 7 beads.  You'll know best what is happening in your body. 

 

If I was at 6 or 7 beads, I'd be over the moon .  You are so close... Just keep going slow and careful. 

[Tilea]

This is my 10th day on 7 beads of AD.   I am still struggling.....Yesterday I did have an hour or so in the afternoon where things were a bit calmer....not much but still the mind was a bit clearer, and an hour or so in the evening.   but woke up this morning to heart racing, tremors, heavy brain fog or whatever it is when the brain seems to be hijacked out of reality....panic, fear, anxiety, eye pressure.   I do think this is the AD that is causing this.   I have had these kinds of wake ups before, most of the time throughout taking this drug.  It seems that the AD is causing these feelings.   I think it always has it is just that it was masked by the benzo before....So now I have no idea what to do....I really thing that my system does not like the effexor (venlafaxine). It seems to bring on the brain fog....that heavy veil between me and the outside world, just seems like there is a switch that gets turned off.     Has anyone gone onto something else to get off this stupid drug?  What are your recommendations....thanks so much for all  your help.

[KarenB]

How bad is the heart-racing in the morning?  Does it race for a bit then settle, or is it alarming for what seems to be too long?  If the latter, then you might reduce to 6 beads.  If you think it's manageable, then considering your small windows, you could choose to stabilise on 6. 

 

Getting on to something else usually causes further complications.  W/d is just a nasty business, and it takes time to get through it.  I do understand though, why we all dream of a 'something else' which will save the day.

Edited June 11, 2016 by KarenB
sorry, should read 'choose to stabilise on 7'

[Tilea]

I am not sleeping well anymore....still on the 7 beads.....my mind is constantly in a fog.....no interest in anything....just existing. I wake up shaking, irritable, overwhelmed,in panic and fear,  not functional,    I have had a tiny window in the last few days that lasted about an hour.....about 75% (I was calm....some brain fog lifted) but the rest is brutal.   I was certainly better before I jumped, but now seems like I have gone backwards a lot.    Don't know what to do.....just feeling like this is my life now and I can't live like this.    So scared....Will coming down a bead help or going up a bead help?   Has anyone been in this type of situation.....maybe I am protracted from my last WD of effexor.....and now nothing seems to work?   Don't know what to do???????

[Tilea]

I just wanted to clarify......I am not any worse as far as panic attacks....not as many as I had before the reinstatement.   The first week after I jumped was a better week....then things started to go bad....panic attacks, more irritability, anger, overwhelmed....difficulty sleeping.   My brain got worse when I jumped....So since I reinstated the 7 beads....I have had less panic attacks....but still lots of anxiety and tremors...and all the other symptoms....so I am wondering if increasing the dose would maybe eliminate things a bit more.....But would really like to know if this has worked for others.   Of course, my stress levels are up because of all of this unknown crap that makes me fear my recovery. And the stress is not helping.       I just want my life back......

[KarenB]

Have you had any fish oil or magnesium yet? 

 

The reason we suggested a reduction to 6 beads is because the symptom pattern you are describing indicates an adverse reaction.  But the only way we can know for sure is if you try reducing to 6 beads.  This is why I asked about your racing heart - is it a concern to you or is it manageable? 

 

An adverse reaction will not be helped by increasing your dose, but unfortunately there isn't anyway to know for sure if you are dealing with adverse reaction or plain ol' w/d symptoms.  If it is not an adverse reaction, a small up-dose to 8 beads might help relieve w/d symptoms and allow you to stabilise.  But it seems important to rule out the adverse reaction first, as you don't want to make it worse. 

[ppppp9]

Hi Tilea.  I've been on Effexor 75 mgs. for 14 years. About 3 years ago, I started a very gradual taper with the final drop just last summer but after 3 months started to experience increased anxiety.  I reinstated in November about 1/3 of 37.5 mgs. I'm again  tapering very slowly and am at 4 beads daily.  I will hold on that probably for several months and then drop a bead every several months until I make the final jump.  I've not had w/d symptoms although just today I felt a little wired, not sure why.  Feeling great now though.  Hope this is inspiring!  Best of luck on your taper.

[Tilea]

Thanks Karen for your reply.....I am taking mag. and omega 3 and have been for a long time.   I wake up every morning with anxiety, where the BP is up, the heart races to about 85 beats or so....shaking, brain fog.  That has been since I tapered off the benzos....I always thought it was the AD causing this, but maybe it is the benzo WD that starts this.   Anyway...if I jumped off at about 20 mg. about a month or so ago....would I not be reinstating at a larger amount than 7 or so beads which is about 2-3mg?   When I jumped,  the tremors, the anxiety and the panic (after a week or so) began to get worse. Now that I reinstated, the panic attacks are less but the anxiety and the rest is still bad....so that is why I am thinking that perhaps upping the dose would perhaps help with the anxiety a bit more.  If you are tapering by 10% /month...would reinstating after a month not be more than the 2-3 mg that I did?   Just not sure how it all works.   This anxiety lasts most of the day, sometimes getting less severe thru the day, and this has been all thru the benzo WD which is the last 8 months.  Would adding in a bead or two work...and keep tapering up till I feel a bit more stable....I just don't know what to do.   Some on this site have reinstated at a higher amt than 2-3 mg.  What is the norm?   Thank you for all your help.   

[Tilea]

Hi ppppp9......thank you for your message.   I am hoping to stabilize on the reinstatement...hoping it all works out.   Then I will taper again much slower.   Just need to stabilize where I am at.   It is so hard when you have a benzo WD slamming you and you are never sure what symptoms are from what.  Neither drug has done anything for me other than a lot of unwanted side effects.  I hope you are doing well.   

[Tilea]

Well, I added another bead last night (should have decreased instead) and not good....thought that I would try that to see if the anxiety would subside a bit.....my blood pressure was up for the last while but now is higher....lots more trembling and anxiety....and some heart palps.... and  I was feeling those a few days ago, too. but thought it was the metropolol which I tried but didn't work.     So I think I need to go back to the 7 beads and then maybe try to get to 6.    This could be an adverse reaction as you stated Karen.   I am finding it hard to know what is causing what, the AD WD, or the AD reinstatement or the benzo WD.    I am not in a good place right now.....the anxiety, brain fog and trembling are thru the roof.    Please advise and again thank you for all your help and support.     I updated my signature.

[KarenB]

Take it back down to the 7 beads Tilea, and keep notes on what happens.  I guess now we know for sure that reducing is the way you need to go.  When you've settled for a bit, then we can look at reducing to 6 beads.  Try to keep everything very gentle for the next few days with plenty of rest and drinking plenty of water. 

[ppppp9]

Hi Tilea.  A very good supplement which eases up on anxiety is ashwaghandha.  This was prescribed to me a year ago by a naturopath who carefully ruled out any contradictions with my meds.  Almost immediately, I experienced its calming effect.  Best time to take it I think is 1 hour before bed and I follow this with some magnesium citrate.  Together, they work wonderfully to sedate me.  It is possible that I don't have w/d symptoms from the Effexor because of the ashwaghandha I'm taking.  I swear by it!

[Tilea]

Thanks ppppp9 for your message and for the tip on  the ashwaghandha.   I just might have to give it a try.  This is  a very difficult road we travel to wellness.  

[Tilea]

Second night on the 7 beads again.   Woke up again at about 3:30 or so with bp high, anxiety, eye pressure pain (this could be migraine or tension headaches - have had this a lot during WD and even during tapering), tremors, heart racing up to 85, pressure in my chest (like an elephant sitting on it....this I had when I started on the ADs and that is what I was taking the benzos for was to relief that pressure and panic) and very thick benzo fog, etc.   So I do think that so many of my symptoms from day 1 of starting these ADs yet in June was the AD themselves.   So now I am not sure how to get stabilized on the 7 beads if I will....or do I try 6 beads.   This is very bad and am getting very scared.   Please advise.   Thank you for all your help,advise and support thru this ordeal. 

[AliG]

 Hey Tilea .

Take it back down to the 7 beads Tilea, and keep notes on what happens.  I guess now we know for sure that reducing is the way you need to go.  When you've settled for a bit, then we can look at reducing to 6 beads.  Try to keep everything very gentle for the next few days with plenty of rest and drinking plenty of water. 

'

The best thing you can do is follow the advice given here. Stay calm. There is a tendency in W/D to try and " do " something , but often the best thing to do is stay even and stable and not do anything ! Symptoms will come and go but it's a matter of being informed and knowing that this is temporary. It might take a little while , but it's doable !

Alison 

[Tilea]

Thanks AliG......I will stay at the 7 beads for a while and see what happens.   Hopefully, things will even out.   

[Tilea]

Since reinstating, can't get bp down.  I am also on bp meds...but it is not helping.   Just a little concerned...because it doesn't seem to come down much at all.    Anyone else have the blood pressure problem, along with anxiety, head and eye/nose pressure, brain fog, tremors, panic, fear?   These drugs are brutal.

[Tilea]

Please help......what should I do....Do I go down to 6 beads....bp has been spiking.....even after taking bp pills.   Had a bad night again and all thru the day again...with panic, bp up, plus this horrible pressure behind eyes and head tremors...rapid and shaky breathing....so much brain fog....makes me feel like I am going crazy. I don't even feel like myself at all.. Feels like my head is going to explode, so irritable....just out of it.   This has been on and off, more on thru out this whole time of taking benzos and AD.  Same feeling of the eye pressure and head pressure as when I was accidentally given 75 mg of the AD.  This drug is horrendous.   I am scared as to what to do.....perhaps I should have not reinstated because now I am stuck with trying to get off of it....and it is causing me so much pain.  Could it be that my system will not tolerate the actual drug of venlafaxine?  Thank you for any help.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Tilea, I am hoping other mods will chime in, but I can tell you that when I was in PAWS from Effexor, my blood pressure increased.  I have always been around 120/68 or some such, but my top number went to 139, don't remember the bottom.  My resting heart rate also increased from 70's to 99!  I remember having it taken at the dentist and the technician was surprised by it, so I began taking it daily and it was always high 90's.  When I reinstated (a fairly high dose) it all calmed down.  

 

So, I'm not sure I can make as bold a statement as "I think this is WD" as withdrawal, but I'd like to!  I also had heart palps, something I'd never experienced before in my life!

 

I would hold on the 6 beads until a more experienced mod shows up to say otherwise.

 

SG

[ppppp9]

I have a question.  When you're down to only 4 or 6 beads of Effexor and holding, what is the best way to taper off this tiny amount?

[Tilea]

Horrible night.....so much panic, anxiety,  chest pain and heart palps, tremors, ..not much sleep....bp is spiking to 164.....all this is getting worse rather than better.  Maybe 2-3 hrs of sleep last night...used to be able to sleep a lot better.   Lots of head/eye/sinus pain and pressure.   Nose has been stuffed up for the last while.   What do I do?   I am getting worse rather than better or stable. Please advise......I am so scared...

[AliG]

Tilea.  For now  - just breathe !  There is nothing to be done, immediately .  Changing doses etc, doesn't work  in the short term , particularly when you're panicking . If you can step away from the symptoms for a bit and just relax and not add the secondary fear, it will go better. Have a look at the guided meditations , practice some yoga, have a magnesium bath .  Of course , this anxiety can tend to raise the BP as well. Calm is what is needed , for now.  Please keep notes on your symptoms. That is the only way of knowing what is going on right now .  

 

P . I'll answer you on your thread.

Ali

[Tilea]

Just doing some research.....could what I am experiencing be a mild case of seretonin syndrome?   

[Tilea]

So I am waiting for an answer to my last post.......  Also, I am still getting a lot of symptoms and am wondering what I should be doing.  The head and eye pressure is really bad and the mental fog is getting worse more like dp....still lots of anxiety, fear, panic.   I don`t know if this is the AD WD symptoms or the benzo WD.    So what did others do in this situation.   It seems that my system has not and still does not like this drug.  Anyone.........

[scallywag]

Tilea, the symptoms you're have are withdrawal symptoms.  Is your signature is updated and correct as of today? If yes, then it's extremely unlikely that 7 beads of Effexor XR have caused serotonin syndrome.
 
What can you do to take care of and nurture yourself? Walk? Listen to some favourite music? Sit by the river or canal, if you're near it? Other ideas in Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

[Tilea]

After reinstating and  being on 7 beads for over a month....I dropped to 6 beads for the last 5 days and am getting slammed badly with panic, more pain, brain fog or dp, anxiety, tremors, more insomnia........just wondering if I should go back up to 7 and see if things get better.   Had some windows of about 75% or so during that time of a month on 7, that is why I thought i could drop 1 bead   Do I wait this out or go back to 7 and hold there for a while.   I am scared that this drug is harming my body and may result in permanent damage.   Would appreciate some advise from others who have reinstate or have a similar situation.  Thank you for your guidance.  (not sure if this is benzo wd or ad withdrawal)

Also, had taken some 5HTP and some inositol during the last while about 1 weeks worth...stopped that two days ago.  Took some earlier on for a few days and was not sure if it was doing anything so I stopped but then tried it again.  

[scallywag]

Tilea,

 

What were your symptoms like after your last dose on May 1?  Any similarity to what you're experiencing now after cutting the dose?

 

Can you ask your doc for a prescription for the immediate release (IR) version of venlafaxine?
The IR version can be made into a liquid which will allow you to make smaller dose cuts than bead counting can.

Bead counting reductions: removing 1 bead from
1/7 = 14.2%
1/6 = 16.7%
1/5 = 20.0%, etc.

Multiple daily doses are required with IR venlafaxine. There's also a bit of arithmetic involved to start and :
1. calculate the equivalent mg dose of  7 beads
2. Divide that mg dose by 2 and take the half-dose twice daily, OR divide by 3 and take the one-third-dose 3 times daily.

 

The Health Canada drug product database is down or the link I'm using isn't working. I haven't been able to confirm whether venlafaxine IR is available in Canada.  Any pharmacist should be able to tell you.
 

[Tilea]

I have had more panic attacks in the last few days and I had that starting about 1 1/2 weeks after quitting on May 1.  I experienced more brain fog,dp after the May 1 quitting and I still have that.   Still have the insomnia....still have the tremors...and the anxiety...and itchiness....that seems to be worse since the 6 bead thing.  In a few tiny windows before I decreased to 6 beads, all these symptoms were less.   The other symptom  that is getting worse is the carpel tunnel which i got during WD.   Not sure if this is related to any of the drugs....hands are very sore, fingers are numb.

[scallywag]

Going back up to 7 beads is unlikely to be harmful, nor is staying there to see if windows of being symptom-free get longer. It could be that your CNS needs more time.

 

Would you put the decrease to 6 beads and the date you decreased in your signature? And if you increase back to 7 beads, please include that detail and date too.

[Tilea]

Thanks,scallywag.....my windows are never symptom free....just less symptoms...Not sure what to do....just so scared.   Just want my life back......

[Tilea]

how do i check for personal messages????

[scallywag]

Tilea, at the top of every page you'll see your username.  Just to the left of that are two icons; the leftmost one is an envelope. Click on the envelope. You'll see a list of your messages. Click on a message to open it.

[Tilea]

Thanks, scallywag.