Tilea: Tapering venlafaxine

[Tilea]

Please help me.....have been on 6 beads since July 5....have been having more severe symptoms....bp spiking and heart rate increasing, eye/head pain  around 4 in the morning, waking me up and then panic, anxiety , tremors, chills,  then bouts of extrerme fatigue where even getting to the bathroom is very difficult, then panic again.   i have been having more anxiety and more depression filled days, dp or brain fog is really bad....maybe a bit of calm in the evening or close to bedtime for an hour or so but just a few days....Not sure if it is bad benzo wave WD or if this is the AD acting totally wrong.....do I increase, decrease or what do I do...trying to ride it out but this is getting very scary.   Need help with this....Thank you for any suggestions....

[scallywag]

Tilea,

Please put your cut to 6 beads on July 5 in your signature.

 

Your 3 am wakeup is likely caused by a cortisol surge. Please read this topic.

 

Waking up with panic and anxiety - managing cortisol surges

 

I'll check with other moderators about next steps. One of us will get back to you.

[Altostrata]

Hello, Tilea. I think perhaps 6 beads isn't enough and you're getting withdrawal in the night. You might try taking 6 beads in the morning and 1 bead in the evening, then gradually move 1 more bead to the evening so you're taking 5 in the morning and 2 in the evening.

[Tilea]

Thanks for the responses.....I take my dose about 8 pm at night....so how would that work?  Plus they are extended release.  Thanks for all your help that you provide for everyone.

[scallywag]

Tilea: Aha -- we didn't remember or know that you're taking Effexor at night. Effexor can be a very stimulating drug.

 

Start shifting beads from 8 pm to 8 am, or whatever time makes sense for your schedule.  Start with five at night, one in the morning. Hold there for a few days, at least 3 or 4. Shift another bead from night to am and hold. Keep doing this until you're down to 2 at night and 4 in the morning.

 

Keep notes on paper of when you take your doses and when your symptoms occur or change.

[Tilea]

Thanks....I could try to move it to the morning.  So 2 days back up at 7 beads......no difference. However, I am having this anxiety all day long also not just in the early mornings.....this has been my one symptom that has been with me from day 1 of taking the benzos and AD......and it is causing me a lot of problems....I sometimes have it calm down a bit, but it is always there.   So from day 1, I don't know what was causing it....the benzo or the AD.  Is there a possibility that the AD is toxic and is causing this while I am on it.....and perhaps it would get better being off of it.   I am so confused as to what the best thing to do is,   Or is this something I need...like the full dose of AD which was 37.5. Hate to go up to that dose and then not have it help at all.    Has anyone changed at this point to another AD and found it helped?  i just don't know what is causing what....just feel so depressed as my life is at a stand still with not being able to do anything with this bad anxiety (with trembling, headache/eye pain, feeling overwhelmed, hopeless, makes my bp. spike and heart race). The other symptom I have right now and it has gotten worse since I jumped from effexor is very bad itching throughout the whole body.   I am feeling down because every day this anxiety is there. This is what I am facing everyday.... I want some quality of life and I don't have it at all.   

 

Just so frustrated that I don't know where to turn or what to do.....I just want my life back......any suggestions would be appreciated.....

[scallywag]

Thanks....I could try to move it to the morning.  So 2 days back up at 7 beads......no difference.

 

However, I am having this anxiety all day long also not just in the early mornings.....this has been my one symptom that has been with me from day 1 of taking the benzos and AD......and it is causing me a lot of problems....I sometimes have it calm down a bit, but it is always there.   So from day 1, I don't know what was causing it....the benzo or the AD.  

 

Is there a possibility that the AD is toxic and is causing this while I am on it.....and perhaps it would get better being off of it.  

 

Or is this something I need...like the full dose of AD which was 37.5. Hate to go up to that dose and then not have it help at all.    

 

Has anyone changed at this point to another AD and found it helped?

 

....just feel so depressed as my life is at a stand still with not being able to do anything with this bad anxiety (with trembling, headache/eye pain, feeling overwhelmed, hopeless, makes my bp. spike and heart race).

 

The other symptom I have right now and it has gotten worse since I jumped from effexor is very bad itching throughout the whole body.  

 

I've highlighted in green bold text your report that you experienced anxiety throughout the time you took full doses of the benzo and Effexor XR. 

 

Is your current level of anxiety higher, lower or about the same as when you were taking 37.5 mg Effexor?

 

From our topic on switching or bridging to a different drug (usually Prozac is used):

 

[There's a risk that] If withdrawal symptoms are already underway, switching to a bridge drug doesn't help

 

You will improve. If I'm reading your posts and signature correctly, anxiety is a new experience to you -- you didn't have anxiety or panic symptoms before last year. Is that correct?

[Tilea]

No, I never had anxiety or panic before this.....just your usual....being anxiious about being late for an appt. or whatever....but not to this extend...ever.    This anxiety has caused me to be irritable, overwhelmed, dp or brain fog or anhedonia...not sure which it is, not functional, not able to visit with family or do any of the things I used to...so emotionally flat.   But have never ever experienced any of this before.   I was on effexor before, but never had any of these symptoms....just brain zaps occasionally.   I have become someone that I don't know since I started these drugs.and it scares me.   When I have tiny windows, I am much more like myself....but they are not very often.  I feel like I maybe need to be off everything so my mind and body start to heal....

 

Thank you for your reply and any help you can offer.   I am at my wits end.   I know that healing even from benzo WD can be a long road.....but I don't know if this is benzo wd or effexor crap.

 

Just one more thing.....shortly after getting off benzos I started to get this awful eye/head pressure pain....feels like stuff being scoped out from inside, head tremors..hyperventalating......weird feeling...and I have been getting that all along..and it really contributes to the anxiety....(maybe the benzos were masking this during the time I was on both drugs)..I was given a 75mg dose of effexor in about Oct. of 2014 by my dr. because he thought i should go back on the AD....it sent me to the ER with the same kind of feeling in my head....only a lot worse.  This has not gone away even on the small dose of effexor.(i think it got better when I first jumped off the AD, for the first week or so)

[Tilea]

Just one more thought.....about 4 years ago I was diagnosed with an autoimmune skin disorder, which resulted in extreme itching and some rashes, scaly skin, etc...for which I took meds and it then went into remission, according to the dermatologist...But i was on effexor then.....and after reading on the drugs.com sight about skin stuff that can be caused by the AD...I am wondering if what I had then was caused by the AD and I have it now because of the AD....Talked to the dermatologist about that but he said no....drugs don't cause this....but I am still wondering about the coincidence of this stuff appearing again during the time I was taking it again.   ??????  Not sure if this is helpful info or not.

[ChessieCat]

KarenB's husband recently became a member and he has itchy skin:

 

misterkarenb-hot-itchy-while-on-effexor

[Tilea]

Thanks ChessieCat.....I will check that out.   Also just wondering how others are taking the small doses of AD that are the beads....like taking 4 beads...are you still using the capsule or can you use some apple sauce to take it with?  

[ppppp9]

Hi Tilea.  I'm taking 4 beads daily in the capsule that comes with my prescription.  Although I'm now down to 4 beads, my sleep is good and I have no anxiety with no w/d symptoms.  Will reduce to 3 beads in a month and see how I do.  All the best.

[Tilea]

Thanks, ppppp9...for your message....hope things continue to improve for you.

[Tilea]

What an awful night....again up during the night with bp spiking, heart racing, chest pain, anxiety, fear.....finally calmed down to fall asleep for a couple of hours only to wake up to the same thing,....plus fatigue.   I don't know what to do anymore....up the dose to a lot higher or get off the med.   Anyone have any suggestions....this is really getting scary. These symptoms hang around all day.

[Tilea]

Can someone help me in what I should do at this stage....reinstate at a higher dose, go off the drug completely, change over to another drug.....what???    Thank you for any responses.  I am scared and can't keep going like this.  Not sure if this is benzo wd or AD wd or what.  All of this is causing more anxiety...it is thru the roof.  So scared that I will never be the same "me" again   The anxiety and dp or anhedonia or whatever it is called is very bad....If I did not have these two symptoms I would feel a lot better.   Does the dp ever go away????

[ChessieCat]

Hello, Tilea. I think perhaps 6 beads isn't enough and you're getting withdrawal in the night. You might try taking 6 beads in the morning and 1 bead in the evening, then gradually move 1 more bead to the evening so you're taking 5 in the morning and 2 in the evening.

 

Hi Tilea,

 

At what time/s are you taking you dose/s?

[Tilea]

I take my dose at 8 pm

[AliG]

Tilea.   What did you think of Alto's suggestion? Is that an adjustment that you would consider ?

[ChessieCat]

Thanks ChessieCat.....I will check that out.   Also just wondering how others are taking the small doses of AD that are the beads....like taking 4 beads...are you still using the capsule or can you use some apple sauce to take it with?  

 

Hi Tilea,

 

It is okay to take the beads with apple sauce.  Just make sure you don't chew them.

[Tilea]

AliG.....I am already taking the full dose in the evening.  But I have symptoms all day too.   Would an increase in the AD perhaps like a few beads help with both the nighttime and the daytime WD.   Perhaps the AD was still working but the benzo WD was too much and the effects from the AD were not felt.   Has anyone increased their AD to perhaps 1/2 the original dose and got relief, or to the full dose and got relief. I jumped from about 18 or 20 mg. and then reinstated at 2mg or so....perhaps that is too small of an amt for WD to stabilize.   I have posted info about the last few days in the messages before....Sure could use suggestions as to what might be a better dose to try to subdue some of these symptoms.  I have noticed that some reinstated at a greater amt of AD than a 2 mg dose.   Would appreciate any help with this.   Thank you so much.

[Altostrata]

What an awful night....again up during the night with bp spiking, heart racing, chest pain, anxiety, fear.....finally calmed down to fall asleep for a couple of hours only to wake up to the same thing,....plus fatigue.   I don't know what to do anymore....up the dose to a lot higher or get off the med.   Anyone have any suggestions....this is really getting scary. These symptoms hang around all day.

 

If the drug is causing these symptoms, increasing the drug will make the symptoms worse. This is not desirable.

 

It sounds like the symptoms you have at night are caused by the Effexor you are taking in the evening.

 

This is one way to test the theory:

 

Tilea: Aha -- we didn't remember or know that you're taking Effexor at night. Effexor can be a very stimulating drug.

 

Start shifting beads from 8 pm to 8 am, or whatever time makes sense for your schedule.  Start with five at night, one in the morning. Hold there for a few days, at least 3 or 4. Shift another bead from night to am and hold. Keep doing this until you're down to 2 at night and 4 in the morning.

 

Keep notes on paper of when you take your doses and when your symptoms occur or change.

 

If your symptom pattern changes, that's probably due to the Effexor.

 

Just one more thought.....about 4 years ago I was diagnosed with an autoimmune skin disorder, which resulted in extreme itching and some rashes, scaly skin, etc...for which I took meds and it then went into remission, according to the dermatologist...But i was on effexor then.....and after reading on the drugs.com sight about skin stuff that can be caused by the AD...I am wondering if what I had then was caused by the AD and I have it now because of the AD....Talked to the dermatologist about that but he said no....drugs don't cause this....but I am still wondering about the coincidence of this stuff appearing again during the time I was taking it again.   ??????  Not sure if this is helpful info or not.

 

It is possible to be allergic to any psychiatric drug. You could have been having a reaction to Effexor.

 

I am also concerned that you said the Effexor made the eye pain worse. It does not sound like increasing Effexor is a good idea. Perhaps you should consider a switch to a little Prozac, maybe 1mg, see The Prozac switch or "bridging" with Prozac

 

Prozac comes in a liquid form for easy titration.

[Tilea]

Thank you, Allto for your reply.    During benzo wd and also taking the AD at 37.5 and now, my symptoms have not really changed....they sometimes have gotten worse in intensity, or hit at different times of the day or night.   I have always experienced the early morning anxiety, etc. sometimes worse than others.  

 

I used to sleep better at nights and had more clarity at nighttime before I came off the effexor.   Since then my sleep has been broken.  Of course, now  I have this itching that wakes me at night or the pain in my hands because of carpel tunnel.  

 

Last night I took a Claritin about 4:00 (the 12 hr kind)..because of severe itching .still woke with anxiety, fear, etc. but felt better throughout the morning and part of the afternoon.....symptoms still there but less in intensity.  

 

Looking back at my journal....couple other times I took claritin, I seem to have a less severe symptom day.  This could be a coincidence or just a better day symptom wise (a bit of a window perhaps).  A few other times it didn`t seem to make a difference.   If the claritin is reducing some of the symptoms, perhaps....what does that mean.  

 

It is very hard to know exactly if the benzo WD or the effexor itself is causing these symptoms.   My dr. thinks that the skin condition is due to the stress of the WD and therefore has started up again and nothing to do with the effexor.  

 

When I took effexor before, I never had any problems, just decided to come off of it because I was on it for quite a while.   I was getting brain zaps and thought it was time to ditch it.   Maybe it was ok for me when I started it up this last time, but the ativan was causing the problem....not sure.  

 

Wish drs would not prescribe 2 meds like that to take together...you don`t know what is causing what.   I could certainly try to take my AD in the morning and see if there is any change.   If I was to up the dose, to see if I can stabilize or eliminate some symptoms, what would I up it to..

 

Sorry for the length of this message....but just want to put all that info. out there.   Would it better to try to updose on the effexor before trying the prozac bridge. Just reading some other posts on here...there have been others who have upped their dose and had some relief....maybe that would work in this case....I just don`t know.

 

Thank you so much for any info and help you can offer.   I would like to be somewhat functional and am willing to try something that might work.  Feeling scared and lost in all of this.

Edited August 7, 2016 by scallywag
additional paragraph breaks inserted

[Tilea]

Please Help.........So 5 days now back at 7 beads....still bad eye head pain....maybe what you would call a migraine that lasts for ever...still anxiety...a bit less itching..  I fall asleep very easily but wake up because of head pain and then the anxiety starts....manage to fall asleep again but wake often because of pain and then finally have to get up but would love to stay in bed...fell comfortable in bed but the anxiety and pain makes it impossible, then I get fatigue from the pain.  Is there anything anyone is taking for the migraine headaches....is anything helping.

 

If I was to change to prozac what would that look like....I am taking about 2 mg of AD now, would I gradually change over and what amounts or how would I do that.   If I was to stay on the effexor should I decrease, increase, stay at the same dose....  Is there anyone else who did this switch and had success with it at such a low dose.....

 

The more I read other posts, the more discouraged and scared I get....because I have no idea what the best thing to do and my brain is so foggy that everything is so scary.   Please help in any way.....any body else out there that has had a hard time in the same way and found a solution that works.....sure would appreciate some feedback......

[JanCarol]

Hey Tilea - 

 

I read, where you wrote:

 I had a dr. appt the other day and we decided to change my BP med....to metropolol, but the last two days I seem to have a lot more chest pain, difficulty breathing and more muscle pain and hand pain.....just not feeling right.   So I will have to go back to furosemide and make any more changes.   So I didn't do the 6 beads yesterday and may wait on that till I feel a bit better with this chest stuff.  

 

Does this mean that you skipped a whole day of not taking your beads?  Please don't do this, it is destabilizing.  Especially when your other drugs (BP) are changing, it is important to keep the dosage the same.  I realize you may be on a different number of beads by now, but please - do not skip days based on how you "feel."  It can have flow-on consequences later, and may be one of the reasons you didn't quite stabilise so easily on 6 beads.

 

BP - I have been learning about the DASH diet for lowering blood pressure:  http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/dash-diet/art-20048456

 

Sometimes, though, too - in withdrawal, all of our "vital signs" go completely out of whack, our cholesterol skyrockets, our thyroid gets crazy, adrenal glands fire cortisol for no good reason - and blood pressure can go up.  Try not to have anxiety about the blood pressure (even though high BP is a symptom of anxiety and stress), as that will only ramp it up.

 

This, too, can contribute to withdrawal symptoms:

Also, had taken some 5HTP and some inositol during the last while about 1 weeks worth...stopped that two days ago. 

 

Especially the 5HtP.  Please only try one supplement at a time.  I would lay bets that the 5HtP messed you up - but you don't know because you took 2 new supplements at once.

 

5HtP is contraindicated in anyone taking any drug that has anything to do with serotonin.  It hits the same receptors.  Here's the SA thread on it, and most of the reports here are negative for that supplement:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9933-5-htp-5-hydroxytryptophan-and-l-tryptophan/

 

I'm sorry you are struggling, but you can get through this!

[Tilea]

Hi JanCarol.....those messages were from some time ago....and NO....i have never skipped days in taking my dose.    And I have stopped the 5HTP and the inositol at the time of the other message. (Julia Ross had taken patients of AD in this way)  It may have brought on more symptoms....but as stated before the symptoms have not changed other than in intensity at times.

 

My concern NOW is stated in the last few messages as to whether I increase the effexor dose, decrease, or go onto something else, due to the symptoms....(which could also be from the benzo WD)  I don;t know what is causing what right now.   And if I decrease, increase or whatever....what dose would I try.  Has anyone switched to another AD from such a small dose of 2 mg of effexor and found that it helped. Or has anyone increase their dose and found it to be helpful..... Or do I just decrease with the effexor.....very confused as to what to do and would like some guidance in this.   Thank you.

 

Adding one more thought......could the effexor be too stimulating and therefore is causing a problem.   Therefore, going to prozac might not be the best idea if it is a stimulating drug.  Is there a cross over AD that is not so stimulating...maybe imipramine....

[Altostrata]

What kind of itching do you get at night?

 

If Claritin helps this, it may be an allergic reaction to something.

 

My preference in switching to Prozac would be a 4-7 day overlap in the drugs, then a fast taper off the Effexor, maybe one bead every few days.

 

Prozac may or may not be activating. It's long half-life gives a smoother ride, a little goes a long way.

[Tilea]

thank you Alto.....I get an all over body itching....no rashes....just itching.  But I also have the itching  during the day.  Being that claritin seems to help with the itching and have noted sometimes the anxiety.....could this have something to do with histamine intolerance.   Have been reading posts on here about histamine intolerance.  I may try changing my dose to the morning and see if that makes any difference.   Could I just take it earlier and earlier in the day till I get to the morning time....say taking it at 6 pm rather than at 8 and then in a day or so take it at 4 or so and on and on.....

 

I am still leary of  switching to prozac....have to give it some thought.   Have read some on here that have not had success with it. .

[Tilea]

Took my dose earlier last night.....the anxiety, terror, panic, head eye pain dp all came back at the same time during the night.....did manage to fall asleep for a bit after only to wake up to the same...like after a toxic nap.  

 

Have read on here that if you not stable from the AD dose when switching to prozac it won't work.   Should I up my dose of effexor to see if I can stabilize before starting the prozac....

 

This is really difficult....this whole AD stuff is causing me more anxiety than I have had.   Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.   Anyone who has had success with this....I would really appreciate hearing how you did.   

[ChessieCat]

Hi Tilea,

 

I've asked the other mods for their thoughts.

[JanCarol]

Hey Tilea - 

 

Two months of itching seems like a long time, but maybe it is still withdrawal.  Many of us have other symptoms, like insomnia, which can last for months.  Your "taper" in May was equivalent to a Cold Turkey, so it may take some time and patience to turn this thing around.

 

Have you tried the Epsom Salts - Another Way to Relax with Magnesium ?  I also add a cup of salt to soothe my skin, and coconut oil if I am itchy.

 

One of the most important things to aid a taper are Non Drug Techniques for Coping with Emotional Symptoms  (and they help with physical symptoms, too)

 

Mods are still reviewing whether a Prozac bridge would be appropriate for you - at the levels you are taking, Effexor and Prozac hit very similar receptors.

 

Please keep your doses steady. Have you been moving them gradually to earlier in the day?

[JanCarol]

 

I take omega, Vit c, d, e, and b complex, probiotic and magnesium, potassium and zinc & copper.

 

Copper can exacerbate emotional symptoms.  It is better to take less zinc, and let your copper balance from there.  Only on extreme occasions, when my zinc is too high (I take regular testing) I might take 3 days of copper just to "top up."  But no more than that!  Daily copper is dangerous and can lead to trouble.

 

Additionally, if you take it at the same time as the zinc, they will cancel each other out.

[Tilea]

First of all.....no on answered my messge re if it would be ok to take the AD earlier each day to get it to be a morning dose.   So I have only taken it that way once because I wasn't sure if I could.and still don't know because noone has said that that is ok to do.  My zinc and copper is in one tablet.     I will probably get those levels checked in the next week or so.   

 

These are the symptoms I have had since the beginning...during using, tapering benzos, WD, (which I never ever had before).....anxiety, tremors, head/eye pressure pain, severe depression, some insomnia, fear, panic, .....they vary in intensity....some days not as bad...other days very bad...99% of mornings are filled with anxiety upon waking and it carries thru the day, sometimes easing up in the pm and sometimes not.

 

I took prozac for about a week or so when I was first put on these drugs in end of May, 2015.  Also put on ativan at the same time.....had some panic then and told the prozac was not working for me (but it could have been a reaction to the ativan too)...then switched to effexor because I was on it before.  But still was taking the ativan...so was not sure what  drug was causing the problem.  For all I know the prozac may have been ok...if they didn't have me on the ativan.   

 

Is there anyone that is taking other supplements, besides omegas and mag. that have found to be helpful.    Is there anyone else out there that has made a positive switch from the effexor to prozac?    Also....I see that many on ;here have been on several AD....so how do they switch from one to the other....do they taper off before they switch or just switch from one to the other.?

 

I would appreciate anyone who has a positive story of coming of these AD's.   When I came off it the first time.....I didn't really have a problem.....so now is it the effexor or the benzos causing all the problems.

 

The other question that has not been answered is... if Claritin can make my symptoms a bit better,.....is this histamine intolerance?   

 

Itching is a side effect and wd effect of both the benzos and the AD.

 

This whole issue is causing me a lot more anxiety than I have had before....because I really don't know what to do.   If I switch to the prozac and it is not working (not sure how I would tell if it is or isn't) then how do I deal with both drugs...how do I come off them?

[Tilea]

I have another question that maybe someone can answer for me.   If one does the prozac bridge....which acts on the seretonin like other ADs....then why should we not take 5HTP or inositol as they also act on seretonin.  If our bodies need the seretonin....would that not be a better choice.   When we updose or reinstate and WD is less....does that not mean that our bodies need the seretonin?

 

Just wondering........

[scallywag]

Tilea, it's absolutely fine to move the effexor to the morning. We suggested doing it one bead at a time.
 
There are a few issues with 5-HTP. The main one is that there are no regulations regarding the quality of supplements.  Are you getting the amount that is indicated on the bottle?  Big pharma has its problems but at least there are rules about how much doses are allowed to vary.
 
Reinstating or updosing are about giving your CNS (central nervous system) the substance whose prescence it shaped itself around.

How your brain responds to psychiatric drugs - Rhi's description of brain remodeling

[Altostrata]

Histamine intolerance is related to the food you eat. If you think you are having a food reaction, you might try a very bland exclusion diet for a while and see if that helps.

 

Your system does not need additional serotonin. The problem in withdrawal is not a lack of serotonin, it's that your system is not regulating itself properly.

 

Exactly what time did you take Effexor and what time did you have "anxiety, terror, panic, head eye pain dp"? Please keep notes on paper every day.

 

To answer your other questions, please see Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

[JanCarol]

Hey Tilea - the reason for the bridge - is because the taper off Prozac is easier. 

 

The bridge is for the purpose of tapering, not because your body is "too low in serotonin" as Scally says.

 

How has it been going, gradually moving your doses earlier?