Wishes19: brain zaps for 8 months since Effexor immediate release fast taper

[Wishes19]

Thank you to Scally and Bruin -

 

Scallywag, that's pretty much what I've been doing, so I went down just 3% this time after a hold at 64/65 for a little over 3 weeks, I don't think 10% jumps are in the cards for me, too much, even a 5% drop I can feel, so will wait until no symptoms for 3-4 weeks before trying another decrease.  I guess I just have to accept being on this stuff longer than I want to be

 

Bruin, thank you so much for your positive thoughts, much appreciated.  It has been such a relief, I was also thinking that part of my success may be due to the fact that I am finally able to get enough sleep due to some life changes that have occurred, since you are struggling with Effexor withdrawal too, just wanted to say that I'm not really sure going back on the Eff w/slow taper down will be the panacea, but that together with sleep and worrying about it less, these things have made a difference for sure.  Hope you are finding some relief as well, all the best to you too!

[scallywag]

Have you considered brassmonkey's slide approach to tapering? In it, the reduction is spread across several weeks and some people find it easier to tolerate.

An example to explain the essentials are:

1. Calculate the desired overall dose reduction, say 8% of 50 mg = 4 mg.
2. Divide the reduction amount by 4: 4 mg / 4 = 1 mg
3. Week 1: Reduce dose by 1 mg, from 50 to 49
4. Week 2: Reduce dose by 1 mg, from 49 to 48
5. Week 3: Reduce dose by 1 mg, from 48 to 47
6. Week 4: Reduce dose by 1 mg, from 47 to 46
7. Weeks 5 & 6: Hold at 46 mg.
8. Repeat steps 1-7.

Possible modifications:

- Hold for more than a week after each reduction;

- Hold for additional weeks after week 6.

[buggedout]

Well I am certainly no expert... and I only skimmed through this thread, but I believe that your symptoms will go away eventually without reinstatement. I recommend taking some omega 3 (fish oil) capsules regularly as that stuff is really good for brain health.

 

Actually I found that this summer when I stopped taking my fish oil, I started to feel lightheaded quite frequently. I believe this was caused by either allergies, stress, or even my reductions, not sure... but I definitely noticed a difference after I stopped taking my fish oil. Haven't started taking it yet due to lack of funds.

[Wishes19]

Scallywag, thank you. I really like that idea and will try tapering that way.

[Wishes19]

Buggedout, thank you for stopping by my page and for your words of encouragement. I did try the fish oil this summer; it didn't help the brain zaps unfortunately, so I stopped but you're right it is good for brain health and I should probably be taking it anyway! Thanks for the reminder and I hope you get to take fish oil again soon

[Wishes19]

trying to go down from 62 mg but can really feel the down-dosing, (zaps, dizziness, head swishiness and GI symptoms),  i think that only 1 mg at a time is all the taper i can handle. Will be on this stuff for at least another year, lol.  

[ChessieCat]

Hi Wishes,

 

When you get a chance it would be helpful if you would update your signature with the details of your reinstatement and subsequent reductions including approx dates and doses.  Thank you.

[Wishes19]

Update: I've been continuing to slowly taper down on the Effexor XR.  I'm currently on 36.5 mg per day (going down by anywhere from 1mg to 4 mg per week, depending on how I feel) and have been tolerating the wean very well, haven't had dizziness or vertigo, GI signs, or headaches.  The brain zaps, though, returned and are the same as before I "reinstated".  I guess they are my new normal and here to stay; the experiment worked while I was on the drug but I refuse to be on this drug anymore.  I am continuing the slow taper down but can't wait to be off it.

 

Anyway, the downregulation of my receptors did not correct itself while being off the drug for 16 months, and did not correct itself after trying to go back on the drug and taper down more slowly. Perhaps if I had reinstated sooner, it would have worked - but I honestly think the damage was done while taking the immediate release form once a day (essentially having mini-withdrawals every day for 4 months), as my doctor incorrectly prescribed. 

 

I still feel the effects of autonomic dysfunction (feeling my heart/chest "jump" at the slightest noise) and have high blood pressure since my initial fast taper, while for my entire life it was normal/low normal.  

 

I've come to accept this situation now. It sucks but it certainly could be a lot worse.  I've taken this as a kick in the butt to take care of myself, which I wasn't really doing before. I'm also thinking more about the future, and how precious a gift time and health are. These are the silver linings.

 

Just wanted to document this in case someone wonders whether going back on Effexor would cure their brain zaps.  It did get rid of them temporarily for me, but they came back while tapering down.  So there you have it.  

[scallywag]

Have you considered staying at a dose for longer than a week?

[Wishes19]

Hi Scally, thanks for stopping by

Initially I did hold for longer and it made no difference. Zaps regardless.

This medicine (if one can call it that) makes me really forgetful and that's a bad look at work, so I'm trying to get off safely but as fast as possible, as it seems that any dose below 112 comes with zaps

[Wishes19]

Hi all, update. I am down to 1 mg! Yes 1 mg of effexor! And plan to discontinue next week. The taper has been fine. But the zaps have continued. 

It's been 2.5 years since taking Venlaxafine immediate release  for 4 months amd tapering off - as my doctor suggested - over 4 weeks. I am left with zaps, multiple times a day, ever since. Who knows what that means and what else will happen as a result? Certainly not me. Certainly not any scientists or researchers. Certainly not the manufacturers of this awful medication. Hopefully nothing awful will happen. I will try to stay positive. But I sure wish I hadn't taken that drug, for basically no reason, from a misinformed doctor who should have known better. Thanks, Wyeth, for giving me yet another thing to worry about in this life - out of greed and recklessness. I hope whoever is responsible for letting this drug get approval rots in hell.

[ChessieCat]

This is a new post from Alto.  Please see especially the 2 parts highlighted:

 

 

https://www.bustle.com/p/what-are-brain-zaps-adjusting-antidepressants-can-have-this-bizarre-effect-2455695

 

What Are Brain Zaps? Adjusting Antidepressants Can Have This Bizarre Effect

 

By JR Thorpe October 3, 2017

 

If you've ever taken antidepressants or other kinds of psychiatric drugs, and have had to alter your dosage or attempt to come off them, you may be familiar with the phenomenon of "brain zaps." Also known as brain sparks, electrical shocks and a host of other colorful names, they're a recognized psychological symptom that feels as if the brain is filled, briefly, with electrical shocks or waves — a very bizarre, but normal, side effect of adjusting an antidepressant dose that reveals interesting things about how antidepressants work in your brain.

 

Brain zaps can be difficult to explain to others, and differ markedly between people: my own feel as if somebody is striking a spark just behind my tongue, while others report stronger or more all-encompassing feelings, from lightning strikes to "pop rocks" in the brain. They can also be found in some people with very severe anxiety, and in the brains of many people with adult ADHD. But current medical opinion holds that they're not anything to be worried about. Instead, they're a pretty remarkable phenomenon — and scientists investigating the peculiarities of antidepressant withdrawal syndrome in particular wonder if they might have something to do with the tie between sleep, stress, and brain function.
 

How Do Brain Zaps Work?

The basic rule around brain zaps when it comes to antidepressants is that they seem to be caused by changes in dosage, particularly with sudden reductions rather than gradual tapering-off of medication (which is what's recommended if you're coming off antidepressants in general). They're part of a spectrum of symptoms that occur as part of antidepressant withdrawal syndrome, a condition that affects all types of antidepressants currently on the market and can cause everything from the infamous zaps to lethargy, flu-like symptoms, insomnia, mood issues, or suicidal thoughts. A study in 2006 found that around 20 percent of people altering their dosage in some way experience the syndrome.

 

As with any medication, coming off antidepressants causes alterations in the body. The neurology of withdrawal has to do with neurotransmitters, the messenger chemicals that carry information between nerve cells, or neurons. Antidepressants, and other medications like the sleep aids benzodiazepines, work on the basis that mood disorders seem to emerge from a depletion in neurotransmitter levels, and work to raise their levels a bit. When you alter or stop using a medication, your neurotransmitter levels fall, and the chemical signals, it seems, can get slightly out of whack, firing in odd physical ways.

 

Some people [on the Web] think that serotonin-based antidepressants induce brain zaps in withdrawal because of the relationship between SSRIs and REM sleep. Many people with "brain sparks" experience them while waking up or drifting off at night. There's a distinct tie between antidepressant use and REM sleep patterns, and rapid eye movement while awake or falling asleep might trigger some kind of compensatory "spark" in the brain while it's adjusting. This may also explain why brain zaps also occur in people taking benzodiazepines and sleeping pills. [Note: This section was sourced to MentalHealthDaily.com, not a credible source.]

 

Getting a concrete answer is hard, though, partially because it's very tricky to study unpredictable brain behaviors like zaps, and also because they show up in other places; they may result from interactions between different medications, for example, and have nothing to do with withdrawal at all. They occur much more commonly in people who have skipped a dose or suddenly curtailed their medication, and appear to be based in neurochemistry's attempts to adapt to new conditions, rather like somebody trying to climb some stairs and realizing that there isn't a stair where they expected one to be.

......

 

The article goes on. My response to the publisher and author:

 

Hello --

 

I am writing you regarding the recent article What Are Brain Zaps? Adjusting Antidepressants Can Have This Bizarre Effect by JR Thorpe https://www.bustle.com/p/what-are-brain-zaps-adjusting-antidepressants-can-have-this-bizarre-effect-2455695

 

First, I want to thank you for addressing this important topic and to thank JR Thorpe for a very well-written article. As you're probably aware, there are so many people on antidepressants, vast numbers have probably been vexed by this phenomenon.

 

I run a Web site, survivingantidepressants.org, that provides peer support to people in tapering off psychiatric drugs and any subsequent withdrawal symptoms. It is probably the most prominent site of its type. We have a large reference section of scientific papers related to withdrawal and other adverse effects of psychiatric drugs at http://survivingantidepressants.org/forum/16-from-journals-and-scientific-sources/

 

As a lay expert in the field, I would like to bring to your attention that there are a number of erroneous assumptions in your article.

 

- Brain zaps are not benign. Brain zaps are a sign that normal brain activity has been interrupted. They are an adverse effect of psychiatric drugs, demonstrating their intense effects on the electrical activity of the brain. Please see Dr. Peter Haddad in the UK for more information about psychiatric drug adverse effects.

 

- Brain zaps are very, very rare outside of drug use.

 

- Medicine is well aware that mood disorders do NOT arise from "a depletion in neurotransmitter levels.” That is a myth promulgated about 20 years ago to sell drugs and so widely believed by patients and doctors (and repeated ad nauseum on the Web) that it’s now “common” — but entirely wrong — knowledge. Nobody knows how antidepressants “work" (if in fact they do “work” — you may recall a great deal of debate about this when Irving Kirsch’s book the Emperor's New Drugs – Exploding the Antidepressant Myth was released in 2009, which continues to this day, cf BMJ).

 

- Neurohormones are like any other hormones, interacting with the entire system that runs the body. (In fact, the majority of serotonin is in the gut and regulates digestion.) Withdrawal symptoms occur because one’s systems have been physiologically dependent on drug activity and have adjusted their own activity accordingly to maintain homeostasis.

The interconnected web that runs your body goes “out of whack” when any of its components are changed. Just as one might become dependent on steroids, suffer the side effects, and experience withdrawal from them, one experiences withdrawal from psychiatric drugs. Withdrawal is a disruption of homeostasis, however synthetically achieved.

 

- Antidepressants do in fact disrupt REM sleep. Your source, MentalHealthDaily.com, is a blog that repackages stuff the author finds around the Web. He or she is reporting somebody’s theory that brain zaps are related to REM sleep. To my knowledge, there is no evidence this is so. Rather, it’s more likely brain zaps are related to epilepsy, see

 

If you’ve ever experienced them, this makes a great deal of sense.

 

- “Addiction” has been defined as physiological dependency plus craving and drug-seeking. It was redefined in the 1980s deliberately to exclude psychiatric drugs, most of which do not induce craving. (However, some, such as benzodiazepines and the “Z” drugs for sleep, are truly addictive.) Antidepressants are technically not “addictive,” but they incur physiological dependency.

You can readily see any of the effects of psychiatric drug withdrawal by reading people’s own stories in our Introductions and Updates forum http://survivingantidepressants.org/forum/3-introductions-and-updates/ Quite a few suffer from debilitating brain zaps for months and even years. I had them myself for about 6 months. (I went on to develop much more severe withdrawal syndrome, which eventually became disabling and took 11 years for recovery.)

 

Psychiatric drug withdrawal syndrome is under-recognized, under-reported, and  mistreated, causing great harm to many thousands of people.

 

Unfortunately, because medicine rather resolutely denies the severity of this problem, your GP or mental health specialist is unlikely to know anything about adverse effects of drugs, withdrawal symptoms, or tapering to avoid them.

 

Lastly, there is nothing normal about getting brain zaps from psychiatric drugs. While one should not panic — reinstatement of the last dose often stops the brain zaps — they are to be avoided. They represent terrible stress to the brain and nervous system, and should not be dismissed as trivial.

 

Sincerely,

Altostrata
SurvivingAntidepressants.org

 

copy to JR Thorpe

 

[Wishes19]

Dear ChessieCat - thanks for posting this on my thread. Truth! These drugs cause damage, and we have zero proof to the contrary.

[Carmie]

Hi Wishes, 

 

How are you doing? How are the brain zaps now?

 

 Sending hugs🤗