Terry4949: withdrawal help

[SquirrellyGirl]

So even in Effexor withdrawal and going on and off the other meds, your sleep was better than it is now?  Sorry if it seems like we are beating a dead horse, here, but when you added the mirtazapine are you saying your sleep got worse with the nightmares and cortisol spikes, or was that after the 25% cut?

 

We are trying to determine if you are having withdrawal from the mirtazapine or is it the original Effexor withdrawal or....?

 

SG

[SquirrellyGirl]

Thanks petunia , I am sorry that my history is not up to date about pregabalin , I am currently on 200mg a day , 100 mg at night and 100 mg in the morning , not sure how to update my signature, my sleep before mirtazapine was actually very good never had a problem with it , but now it is filled with weird dreams and unsettled , it knocks me out cold for about 4hours then I will wake with a start , and have high cortisol spikes sometimes panicky , then go back to sleep ,then when I wake I feel exhausted .

 

If you go to the top of this page where your username is, click on it and you will be given a menu that includes "my settings."  Click on that and you will be given a navigation bar on the left that includes "signature."  Click on that and you will be able to edit your signature block. 

 

SG

[Terry4949]

When I was in Effexor withdrawel I still slept very well . It was the waking hours I have all the problems , mirtazapine has a different kind of sleep pattern , the first time I took it , I was out cold for 12 hours and had such horrible nightmares which lasted for weeks , with mirtazapine it's like being sedated and you have no recollection of anything , you wake with a start or usually a jump , not like the natural sleep I was used to , I hope this helps you understand .

[Hibari]

When I go to my acupuncturist and he says, how is your sleep?  I always say, "drugged".   And that's because I take Mirtazapine.   Like, you the first time I took it was out for 12 hours straight and then every day I had to fight my way through dull, out of it feeling.  It has gotten better in the morning as I have come down, but I still am sleep within a 1/2 of taking it every night.  In fact, it is more sedating the lower you go on it,

 

Your jump from 30mgs to 22.5 was a big one and if part of it was from solid tablets to liquid-it was probably a lower cut then you thought.  Now that you are back on tablet form, it just may take time to stabilize.   I found that the wd from Remeron is really intense-it is one of the most powerful antidepressants out there in terms of wd symptoms.  For me, the wd symptoms were depression, anxiety, crying and nausea.   The only way I know that it's wd is that I come through and stabilize after each cut.   And then I realize that it was wd. 

 

Hang in there.

[Terry4949]

Really struggling at the moment , really not sure wether to reinstate a small amount of Effexor to see if it eases my depression anxiety , don't want to but I am getting desperate after 15 months of it , just lately even gone of food bad stomache , something that has never bothered me before , it seems the longer I go the worse I am getting , thought I would see some improvement by now , unless it's the mirtazapine , just don't know what to do

[SquirrellyGirl]

I would say that your digestive troubles are the mirtazapine; it is notorious for causing these types of issues.  Diarrhea is my thing with reducing mirt LOL!  I think the 25% cut in light of your Effexor WD is still having reverberations.  Does it help to know that those symptoms are likely the mirt and not the Effexor?

 

We have been debating whether reinstatement would be worth trying in your case.  This far out it's a risky proposition, but there are those out there where reinstatement worked, so it makes it very hard to dismiss altogether.  And so the decision must be left up to you.  Only you know whether you can continue waiting for things to improve, risk reinstatement making things worse, etc.  

 

You would need to calculate how many beads equate to 1 mg by taking the average number of balls in a few capsules and dividing that average by the dosage of the capsule.  Calculate how many beads gets you closest to 1 mg.

 

The point of starting with so little is to be sure that you don't have an adverse reaction to Effexor; if you do, it was such a small amount as to not be able to recover by stopping.  If you tolerate it, then it takes four days of doses for that dosage to reach a steady state in the blood, and perhaps a week to truly assess whether it is helping/hurting/no result.  

 

We can't make this decision for you at this time.  We are rooting for you and want you to feel better.  There's just no tried and true fix at this point, so once again you are the guinea pig.

 

With your digestive symptoms, definitely keep your mirt dosage steady.  If the disturbance is intolerable, it may be the mirt that needs an updosing, but definitely not both at the same time.

 

SG

[Terry4949]

thanks for your reply , I really deep down don't want to start the Effexor again , just feeling desperate , the last few weeks have been unbearable , I just feel like crying nearly every waking hour day after day and the nervous anxiety is constant , depression looms over me constant , I don't seem to tolerate supplements very well , tried magnesium and fish oil but both give me upset stomach , it's hard to see at the moment that it does get better , I feel like I have been trying for ever ,

[Altostrata]

Terry, you can either copy and paste the Drug Checker results in a post or copy the link and post it. Please do this ASAP.

 

What time of day do you take each of your drugs, what dosages, and what is your daily symptom pattern? Please keep notes on paper.

 

For example, do you wake up at the same time each night?

 

Did the pregabalin make you feel any different?

 

I am concerned about the mirtazapine and pregabalin combination at night, if that is when you take both.

[Terry4949]

Thank you alto , I will copy and paste the results as soon as I can figure out how to do it , I take 22.5mirtazapine and 100mg of pregabalin at 7.30 pm and then 100mg of pregabalin at 6.30 am , I don't think the pregabalin has done much for my anxiety , have noticed my headache tension has been slightly less , I wake at night at exactly 2.00am and then again at 5.00am , but feel so drowsy all day , hope this helps

[leahy]

Interactions between your selected drugs

Moderate mirtazapine  pregabalin

Applies to: mirtazapine, pregabalin

Using mirtazapine together with pregabalin may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications. Also avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

Switch to professional interaction data

Other drugs that your selected drugs interact with

• mirtazapine interacts with more than 300 other drugs.
• pregabalin interacts with more than 200 other drugs.

[Terry4949]

I have been thinking long and hard today about wether the mirtazapine or the lyrica is perhaps causing my anxiety and depression , and now I have started to really think that maybe the lyrica may be making things worse ,

 

I take mirtazapine and lyrica at night and with in one hour I am a sleep , I then take the next dose of lyrica in the morning , currently on 200mg so 100mg atnight and 100mg in the morning , as I sleep through the first dose I do not really experience the side effects but I do wake twice in the night very abruptly .

 

I take my morning dose and within 1 hour I feel dizzy , faint like and confused , by mid afternoon anxiety has hit its peak , I think that as I take the lyrica at 6.30am by lunch time it has lost its affect , I also think that the lyrica is responsible for my depression ,

 

I had never suffered depression prior to Effexor poop out , how ever I believe my mood has been very suppressed since taking the lyrica ,I believe the half life of lyrica is about 6hours ,

 

I am thinking that maybe a lower dose of lyrica maybe worth trying , I understand that lyrica is also a powerful drug and needs reducing accordingly , I am on 200mg a day what would be the recommended dosage drop could I try 75mg in the morning and 100mg at night or would that be to much of a drop

[SquirrellyGirl]

Hi Dan, 

 

Since you did the 20% cut of Remeron about two months ago, I would be very careful about tapering anything.  If you feel you are as solid as you can get, you might try 5% of the Lyrica and see how that goes.  Your proposed cut would have been 12.5%.  Since this is the first time tapering this drug, best to start small, dip your toe in the water.  

 

Keep notes on paper.  You'll be looking for what timing any withdrawal symptoms come up, what they are, and how long they last so that you can determine whether it is safe to cut a little bit bigger.  Allow a full 4 weeks to see how this plays out.  Since you have been feeling awful with the depression, the last thing we want to do is trigger you feeling worse.

 

SG

[Terry4949]

I have been to see my doctor today for a repeat prescription for my meds , he ask how I was feeling , to which I replied my life is hell , I suffer everyday at the hands of these drugs that you have put me on , yet when I come to you in my hour of need you offer me no support ,

 

how do you mean he replied so I told him what the drugs had actually done to me and my life and my family , and his reply was the drugs in which we take are good they work for thousands of people it's just a matter of finding the right one for you ,

 

so I replied so why do I feel so bad , that I have taken multiple drugs. and yet here I am in a living nightmare where have the drugs helped me , to which he replied then you need to speak to a member of the mental help team ,

 

my reply will they be able to help me get of these drugs that have ruin my life , his reply no why would they want to help you get of the drugs which are helping you ,

 

hopeless , I then left and spent the next 20 minutes crying in my car . so the bottom line is I now no that I am completely alone in coming of these meds as they have no clue to the damage they are doing , this is probably the worst wave I have had in 16 months but I take comfort that I know the drugs are helping me , what a joke

[leahy]

I am speechless about your doctor's ignorance, although it is more the norm than not, in this world. I'd cry too, if I were able to. That he can't even take in this information and process what you are saying is very frightening.

 

Yes. You are most likely alone in your world while trying to taper.

 

But you are not alone here. 

 

Speak to a member of the mental health team? How terrible of this doctor to imply the problem is mental. That is clearly derailing to a patient whose problem he created with his prescription pad. And manipulative. I think that's called "gas lighting". What an idiot! There is no medicine to help. Medicine is our problem.

 

I'm proud of you for speaking up so clearly and firmly, though. Very impressive.

 

The moral of the story is get what you need and get the hell out of there.

 

L

[Terry4949]

Thanks leahy . If I didn't have to go there and get my meds I would never set foot in there again , he is suppose to be a doctor and have a duty of care , but they look down on you if you ever question their judgment ,

[leahy]

If I didn't have to get my meds I would never set foot in 'there' again, either. My pdoc is stupid and nasty and insecure.

 

Secure, truly knowlegeable people do not have to lash out at you.

 

I think many psychiatrists are stupid by nature. They are not real doctors and they know this. Their medicines are based on opinions and guesses, not science.

[SquirrellyGirl]

HI Terry, 

 

Sadly, yours is not an unusual story.  I've read more than once where a person's p-doc "fired" them for not tapering the way HE wanted (too fast!).   My own p-doc laughs at me and says I have OCD for weighing my Effexor beads and mirtazapine doses!  But he is at least willing to keep prescribing for me, which is ultimately all I really need.  We all want so badly for "our" doctors to be the enlightened ones, but they are few and far between.

 

Everyone is spellbound by the drugs.  My cousin, who has been on ADs her whole adult life and is in her 50's, said that I should just stay on my meds when my sister told her about the hell I went through coming off Effexor over a year ago.  It's pretty horrifying, really.

 

We're all here for you!

 

SG

[Terry4949]

I am having the worst wave ever , don't know what's going on , the morning anxiety has gone mad , I feel sick constant trembling , and when that drops of terrible depression ,crying thoughts of suicide , I have made no changes to my med dosage have been holding steady but I am getting worse , inner nervousness is unbearable ,is this withdrawel still from Effexor or is it my illness returning and the meds I am on just don't do anything , how can you reduce meds when you feel so bad , I can understand people withdrawing when they feel good and going slowly as to not rock the boat , but what do I do when I want of but feel so bad that I am to scared to even drop the slightest

[Bruin]

Am so sorry Terry.......a very tough spot to be in. As you know our stories have great similarity. I have made a decision to hold Mirtazipine 

until the Autumn before tapering. I did come off the Pregabalin and rather too fast because it was destroying me. For me Lyrica on top of 

protracted Effexor withdrawal was literally hell. Suicidal ideation is frighteningly common with Pregabalin. In my estimation it is a  nasty drug..

it also brought on Akathisia which thankfully has receded since I quit.  For me it was definitely this rather than the Mirt which was causing the real 

grief. However, as I said,I came off much more quickly than I should have because of the side effects of taking it. If you have not already check out 

the FB page Lyrica survivors.....the Admin is excellent and there are some knowledgeable people on it. I am still suffering quite badly from my 

skirmish with Lyrica.........am 2 months off now.  Terry, hang in there, I will PM you later to check in. 

[Petunia]

I'm sorry you are going through this Terry, my guess is the emotional stress from the visit to your awful doctor is probably making it even worse. That would be enough to throw me into a wave. Its best not to make any more cuts while you are still having bad symptoms.

 

I've gone through the cycles of extreme anxiety followed by drops into deep depression. Sometimes it has been a daily pattern, other times its played out over several days of swinging between one state and the next. But over time, the extremes have settled down into ripples rather than being overwhelming waves. When the rug gets pulled out from under a stable nervous system, bringing it crashing down, it can take quite a while for it to right itself again. It takes time, more time than we imagine, but with patience, we all get to better feeling places.

 

I have been thinking long and hard today about wether the mirtazapine or the lyrica is perhaps causing my anxiety and depression....

 

My opinion is that the majority of your current symptoms are being caused by your 4 week 'taper' off Effexor after 15 years of use. Subsequent trials of various drugs haven't helped and may have caused further destabilization of your nervous system. Its difficult to know what would be the best thing to do now. Ideally, you want to taper off the drugs you are on now, which are not helping. But more changes are going to cause more destabilization.  There are no obvious solutions and no quick fixes, but in time your NS will become more stable and you will be able to begin slowly tapering.

 

The other option is to try reinstating a very small amount of Effexor. It may help, it may do nothing or it may make you worse, there's no way of knowing what effect it will have without trying. Whatever you try, has to be your decision because no one can know how anything is going to effect you and you need to be prepared for the possibility that symptoms may get worse from making any changes at all now. Small changes are less risky and less likely to make symptoms much worse if they are going to have a negative impact.

 

My advice would be to focus on extreme self care for a few weeks, take care of yourself the best you can and try and stabilize a little, then when you are feeling a little more calm, you will be in a better place to make a decision.

[Bruin]

Hi again Terry. I agree completely with Petunia having had an almost identical experience to you. The rapid taper off Effexor 

after 15 years was what caused the damage and the attempts to remedy it only made things worse. Lyrica was terrible for me.

 

I am going to hold steady and do my best at extreme self care.....not an easy thing when one feels wretched.

I am also tempted to try the tiny reinstatement of Effexor but , like you, have a fear of putting that stuff in my system again.

As Petunia has said...there is no way of knowing the results. It is probably best to be in a more stable condition before making that decision.

I am going to wait a while before deciding. What is clear is that there are no immediate quick fixes.

 

At the present my only aim is to get through the current day and not project into the future too far.

 

All best wishes.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Bruin said it beautifully!  

 

Terry, I'm so sorry you are having this wave, but that is what it is, and they do go.  As Bruin said, try not to project into the future on this.  

 

You are already having a rough time and any stressors can amplify the wave.  Even for those of us who feel "stable" while tapering, stress can bring withdrawal up.  Withdrawal is always just under the surface, and so we must be really gentle with ourselves.  There are folks who triggered symptoms by exercising too hard!

 

You will get through this wave, my friend.  I know you were already feeling discouraged and really didn't need this to happen on top of it!  We're all routing for you, though, so as always, you are not alone :-)

 

SG

[Terry4949]

I know this sounds like I am going over old ground , but I seriously getting worse , I have had no appetite for 3 weeks now even the thought of drinking water makes me feel sick , the mirtazapine is supposed to give you an appetite , but I have been waking every morning now with a loud ringing in my head , also a really nervous panicky feeling in my stomache that makes me tremble and feel shaky all day it just doesn't stop , the feeling to want to cry is ever more present and a fatigue that is like no other ,

 

I am so withdrawn with no motivation whatsoever ever , I felt less intense feelings 6 months ago , no human being should have to suffer this sort of torture , in a constant state of anxiety , the nervousness knot in my stomache is driving me made , I have tried fish oil and magnesium but both make my stomache ache and unsettled ,

 

how can you tolerate this day after day , I am starting to think that I will never get better and my hope is disappearing , I have tried the acceptance thing withe the anxiety for many years trying to live with it and just tried to live along side it , but I don't think that cuts much ice when you are in withdrawel ,

 

I have never smoked , no alcohol in 10 years , no sugar , eat healthy , what else is there left ! , medication makes me feel rubbish but you can't just stop taking it , completely run out of ideas , doctors and phyciatrist are clueless , at least I have this site to let of steam ! , have been of the Effexor 16 months now you would have thought you would have seen some improvement

[Terry4949]

Can anyone help , I started to read a article by alto , the title was , one theory about anti depressants , way back in 2011 , I cannot seem to locate this , does anyone know what group it is under , I.e tapering , self help , etc or is there a link I could use , thanks

[direstraits]

symptoms and self-care-first page

[leahy]

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/392-one-theory-of-antidepressant-withdrawal-syndrome/

[Terry4949]

I have been to see my phyciatrist today , and I had to see some one different he was a Indian man who I must say was a very nice man , I gave him a run down of my history etc , and spoke to him about w/d and what was happening to me ,

 

I spoke he listened , then when I had done , he agree with me about w/d and that he new other people that were going through the same experience , he said to me that as I reduce the dosage of my meds did I feel worse or better for the drop , I told him that for the last 3 years that regardless of what dosage I am on , or drop my anxiety and depression stays at the same intense level , the side effects are also horrendous ,

 

he has suggested that a very low dose of lofepramine may help me reduce some of the distressing w/d symptoms ,he suggested that I go away and have a think about it , I will say he was not pushing it , in fact he was probably the best person I have ever seen , spent about one and a half hours with him , he said that other people who were showing signs of withdrawel that he believed had said that it had help them ,

 

but I can't seem to find much info on lofepramine , has anyone ever tried this med to help ease w/d , i am very tempted to try as I feel like this is never ending

[SquirrellyGirl]

Lofepramine is a third generation tricyclic antidepressant that is supposed to be less sedating than amitryptiline.  I think I can say with confidence that only under dire circumstances would we at SA recommend using another antidepressant to treat AD withdrawal.  They all affect neurotransmitter levels which then leads to push-back and adaptation by the nervous system, and there you have dependency and the potential of withdrawal yet again :-(

 

I was on another forum where someone in withdrawal from mirtazapine was given olanzapine to deal with withdrawal symptoms, Zyprexa, an antipsychotic!  I don't think she realized what the drug was, that it was something her doctor was offering to help with withdrawal.  Good god, going on an antipsychotic to treat WD!

 

If we knew of ANYTHING that would treat withdrawal and make it go better, we'd be tooting horns around here, but sadly there is nothing like that out there.  It might help to watch this video if you haven't (I love it!):

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9103-healing-from-antidepressants-patterns-of-recovery-a-video/

 

SG

[Terry4949]

I have been in a permanent wave for 3 years now and after Effexor being stopped about 16 months ago I have been living in hell , I am currently holding my meds and have made no further drops since my last drop , but with each and every day I am getting worse , I have hardly eaten in 3 weeks , struggle to even drink water , the depression has got worse and worse , the ever increasing anxiety , muscles are hurting , tinnitus , wanting to cry , sweating and fatigue , blight my life relentlessly , I can not take magnesium or fish oil as it causes me so much stomache discomfort , after so long of battling through and thinking that it will get easier I am now seriously thinking of reintroducing Effexor to see if it will pull me out even a little of this hell , I know it is not recommended but is reinstatement the only way I will find peace ,

[bubble]

Hello Terry and sorry you are struggling.

​

I have moved your post from the thread on reinstatement because the answer depends on your particular situation documented in your thread here. So it's best you post all your questions here.

 

I have been in a permanent wave for 3 years now and after Effexor being stopped about 16 months ago I have been living in hell , I am currently holding my meds and have made no further drops since my last drop , but with each and every day I am getting worse , I have hardly eaten in 3 weeks , struggle to even drink water , the depression has got worse and worse , the ever increasing anxiety , muscles are hurting , tinnitus , wanting to cry , sweating and fatigue , blight my life relentlessly , I can not take magnesium or fish oil as it causes me so much stomache discomfort , after so long of battling through and thinking that it will get easier I am now seriously thinking of reintroducing Effexor to see if it will pull me out even a little of this hell , I know it is not recommended but is reinstatement the only way I will find peace ,

 

I don't know if anyone is able to give an answer to this as you already now. It is impossible to predict how you will react after all this time. But if you decide to give it a try, don't go by more than 1 mg.

 

I hope others will have other helpful moments for your situation.

[SquirrellyGirl]

What have you decided to do, Terry?  I know it has been a rough go for you, so I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you :-)

 

SG

[Terry4949]

*post moved from standalone topic in Tapering forum

 

I have come to the conclusion that my anxiety levels are going through the roof due to withdrawals from lyrica even though I haven't drop my dose , II take 100mg at 7.00pm and 100mg at 7.00am and I think my body has got use to it , I believe it looses its effectiveness whilst I am sleeping and so I wake sweating and the feeling of severe nervousness , then I take my morning dose and then it eases slightly for 5 to 6 hours then the symptoms return , I also feel dizzy and have a headache in the morning after taking my dose , I think that this is why my healing is not happening and that I am in a vicious cycle ,

 

I am suffering daily withdrawel symptoms , I also take mirtazapine which I am reducing very slowly so I don't want to reduce two meds at once , any suggestions on what can be done to help relieve the lyrica problem , I have tried magnesium but it gives me stomache cramps , I have been told by my doctor that remeron and lyrica are not very good to take together as they can increase anxiety ,

[scallywag]

Terry,

 

I've moved your post from a topic you started in the Tapering forum, Lyrica anxiety.  More people will see your question if it's in your introduction topic.

 

I'm sorry to hear that anxiety is plaguing you in a daily cycle.  We've got a few questions to help problem solve:

 

How much mirtazapine are you taking now? When do you take it?

 

When did you first notice this pattern with anxiety, or in other words how long has this been happening?

 

Is your signature up to date with the doses you're taking today, June 27?  If not, would you update it?

 

Some people do find that they are sensitive to magnesium.  What form of magnesium did you try -- oxide, chloride, citrate, glycinate?

 

Hang in there, we'll see what we can come up with to ease this.

[Christian]

I have been to see my phyciatrist today , and I had to see some one different he was a Indian man who I must say was a very nice man , I gave him a run down of my history etc , and spoke to him about w/d and what was happening to me , I spoke he listened , then when I had done , he agree with me about w/d and that he new other people that were going through the same experience , he said to me that as I reduce the dosage of my meds did I feel worse or better for the drop , I told him that for the last 3 years that regardless of what dosage I am on , or drop my anxiety and depression stays at the same intense level , the side effects are also horrendous , he has suggested that a very low dose of lofepramine may help me reduce some of the distressing w/d symptoms ,he suggested that I go away and have a think about it , I will say he was not pushing it , in fact he was probably the best person I have ever seen , spent about one and a half hours with him , he said that other people who were showing signs of withdrawel that he believed had said that it had help them , but I can't seem to find much info on lofepramine , has anyone ever tried this med to help ease w/d , i am very tempted to try as I feel like this is never ending

I read on a FB support forum a woman tried lotrapimine ffircs couple of weeks. It took away much of her anger and anxiety but she lost her sleep. That's the problem with these meds. They may fix one thing but csuse other issues. Then you have to deal with WD.,

Edited June 27, 2016 by scallywag
moved quote to post with comment

[Terry4949]

Thanks scallywag , I am currently on 20mg of mirtazapine which I take in the evening 7.30pm , this pattern of anxiety being worse in the mornings and afternoons have been since I started lyrica 12 months ago , it's only now I think it may be withdrawals during the day as my body has used up the drug ?. I tried magnesium chelate and it had me doubled up in pain even at small doses , I will up date my signature .

[Bruin]

Hi Terry.......I think you are right re being in Lyrica WD every day. The Half life is 5 to 6 hours and thus it makes sense.

As you know I had a hellish time with L ...it made me very depressed and caused extreme anxiety.

In retrospect the inter dose WD was a big factor in this.

I am now nearly 4 months off  and though not feeling wonderful the extreme anxiety has gone. This is huge.

Can I ask did you or do you get any benefits from L.?

 

Like you I am in protracted WD from Effexor which I know sensitised me to the Lyrica experience . It is hard for me to 

take anything without strong reaction. 

 

Am sorry that you are suffering and  am cheering you on You will find a path through though it may take time.