KiwiBex: My Remeron Withdrawal Story - wd love feedback

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Hi Guys,
I'm new to putting myself on this site. I've been browsing on here and there for a while but time to put my stuff out there and get some help. I'm in a fairly desperate panicky place right now and feeling a bit paralysed as to what to do.

I experienced protracted withdrawal in 2013 being moved up to a high dose of 180mg Venlofaxine then told to withdraw too quick it was a beyond hideous time. Psych quickly put me on Sertraline where my mood plummeted and sleep suffered so she declared me 'treatment resistant' and prescribed 30 mg Remeron. The second I was on this drug it felt wrong - slowed thinking, sedation, intense dry mouth, food cravings, felt emotionally numb, gained weight - horrid!! I knew I could not spend rest of my life on this so began a slow taper immediately and got down to 10mg by end of 2014 without too much hassle. Nice to be able to think a bit more clearly!!
So 2015 was the year I would continue to do this. I dipped in and out of SA to check I had the right concepts. My doctors didn't understand my need to do it slowly - so did it myself as follows:
Jan 2015 - 10mg
2 Feb - 9mg
17Feb- 8mg
3 March - 7mg
17 March - 6.5mg
23March - 6mg
7 April - 5.5mg
21April - 5mg
May 5 - 4.5mg
June 29 - 4mg
July 13 - 3.5mg
Aug 10 - 3.2mg
Oct 14 - 3.1mg
Oct 26 - 3.0
Nov 1 - 0mg!!! This wasn't planned!

As you can see I tried to follow 10% taper or less and realised I had to go super slow after 4mg.

Unfortunately the last few days of October I experienced a very confusing time. I was overwhelmed by a person in my life, I was so confused I forgot to take the meds for 3 nights and experienced - no sleep, racing thoughts a mania type psychosis. It was a terrible confusing time which I felt was precipitated by unwittingly going off Remeron by accident. I went into hospital for a few days. Thankfully staff were so lovely and supportive and didn't push more medication on me. They would not give me the Remeron as they said 3mg was such a small dose hardly worth being on. I panicked at this at first but then things seemed ok for a few weeks - good mood, clear thinking, sense of humour back etc... With the help of a community mental health nurse we thought we'd monitor it over a few months and see how it goes.

I'm at week 10 off Remeron and things feel like they are going downhill fast now.

I'm experiencing:

Intense dry mouth
Insomnia (7.5mg zopiclone taken nightly)
Anxiety increasing especially at night
Crying spells where I hit the wall
Intense vice like headaches / light sensitivity
Nausea
Food sensitivity

This is tough guys!! Im living moment to moment and feeling desperate. I'm a little paralysed as to what to do. My GP recommended going back on a small dose of Remeron. What do you suggest?

A new psychiatrist (I've seen and don't have much respect for/nor do I wish to see her again ) said NO don't go back on the Remeron given the psychosis I experienced stopping abruptly.

I'm feeling terribly vulnerable and don't know who to believe! I can't go on much more with these sweeping vice-like headaches. I'm very very scared I'm heading down the path of protracted withdrawal syndrome. Please any advice would be more than appreciated.

If you think reinstating what sort of dose given my history to start on and for how long? My GP just said a low dose.

Thanks a million for support
Bex

Edited August 5, 2016 by scallywag
tags added

[Fresh]

Hi Bex , welcome to the site. Glad you decided to do an introduction for yourself and are a bit familiar with the site.

 

The only way to stop the withdrawal continuing to develop is by reinstating. Because of your history I'd be inclined to start with 1mg.

See the thread on reinstating here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7562-about-reinstating-and-stabilizing-to-reduce-withdrawal-symptoms/

 

You'll need to give it 4 days before deciding to increase - see how you go. If you click FOLLOW at the top right , you'll eceive an email each time someone posts here.

 

It's going to be okay , this situation is temporary.

 

Best wishes , Fresh

 

.

[KarenB]

Hello Kiwibex from another Kiwi,

 

I agree with Fresh that trying a small reinstatement would be the next step for you.  Have a read of the link she gave you and if you have any questions come back to this thread to ask them.  You did a good job of tapering - much slower than a doc would advise.  However the 10% should be based on your current dose, so the amount you reduce by will be less each time.  This is especially important in the last part of the taper. 

 

If you reinstate and then wait until you are well stabilised (possibly 2-3 months - keep symptom notes so you can work it out), you'd be able to gently and slowly taper off then.  Why taper by 10%?

 

All your symptoms are classic w/d.  Have a look in the Symptoms and Self-Care section for ideas.  There is a lot you could do to ease your way through this. 

 

If you fill out a signature it will be easier for us to see your situation whenever you post - thanks.

 

And if you like you can come and hang out in the NZ section

 

Good to have you here,

Karen

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Thank you Gold Star and KarenB for your advice and support. Really really appreciated! Great to see you're a kiwi too Karen

 

The only method I have for taking 1mg is dry cutting. Is this ok to do? I use some very good high precision scales (Gemini-20) which weigh right down to 0.001g / 1mg. I've seen some info about using liquid but think this could get a bit confusing.

 

I have recently learnt about a compounding company nearby. As this will be a long term process I feel this could be a very $ option.

 

Thank you in advance

[Petunia]

Welcome KiwiBex,

I'm happy the good advice from Fresh and Karen was helpful for you, I agree that 1mg is a good starting place for reinstatement.

 

If you feel you can be accurate enough with dry cutting for now, that will probably be fine, but as the dose gets lower, you may want to switch to liquid. Its not complicated once you get used to it, you can make your own.

 

I will post some links with information which may be helpful. If you have any more questions, just ask them here in your thread.

 

Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

How to cut up tablets or pills

 

Using a digital scale to measure doses

 

How to make a liquid from tablets or capsules

 

It would be great if you would put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature. Doing this helps people understand your context, it appears below each of your posts. Here are instructions for how to do it:

 

http://survivinganti...your-signature/

 

Please stay in touch and let us know how you are doing.

 

Petunia.

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Guys I'm not doing well. After reflection about my taper I don't think it was as accurate as I thought. I was suffering confusion and think my last dose was much higher than 3mg - prob somewhere around 5 mg. I have lost confidence to dry cut myself. Last few days I'm in a lot of pain now - headache horrible, adrenaline spikes around body and up back and suffering agitation at night. Feeling helpless. The mental health nurse is going to get me a different psych next week. I don't know what to do. Feeling desperate. Surviving moment to moment. Is the best thing for me to go back on Mirtazapine - is this what I should push for? I'm not feeling confident to dry cut the dose myself at all now. I'm terrified of the strength of this med. Now that I've been off 11 weeks the w/d is becoming sooo intense.

 

Would be so very grateful for help from anyone who may have been in this situation and reinstated? Anyone who can help. Sorry just paralysed by fear and don't know what to do.

 

Thanks very much in advance

[Fresh]

Try and stay calm Kiwibex.   None of the thoughts or sensations can hurt you.

 

This link here

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2693-how-to-make-a-liquid-from-tablets-or-capsules/

explains how to get 1mg of remeron.

Basically , if you dissolve a 10mg tablet in say , 20mls of water , every 2mls of water contains 1mg of medicine.

You need a small jar and an oral syringe from a chemist.

 

If you intend to re-start any medication , I'd do it myself.  You may get some symptom relief in the next 24-48 hours.

There's no need to wait to see a new doctor - when you have the appt. you can tell them what you're doing.

 

It's likely that a doctor would recommend starting on 10mg , and that may be way too much for you.

 

(btw , it was me that shortened your screen-name , I hope you don't mind   )

 

.

[KarenB]

It's going to be okay KiwiBex, we'll work through it one step at a time.

 

Fresh has good advice for you (if you could pop up a signature it would be really helpful).

 

The symptoms you list are all very normal w/d symptoms, and you will come through this.  I agree with the others that reinstatement at a low dose would be worth a try. 

 

Guided meditation, sip water with magnesium dissolved in it, go outside and sit on the grass - do whatever soothing things you can while you wait for the reinstatement to kick in.   

 

Let us know what you decide,

Karen

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Hi Fresh and Karen,

Thanks very much for your advice and support it truly means a lot.

 

When I last posted I had a couple of really awful days anxiety/headache-wise. I left it a bit to see how things went and have had much milder headaches (until today - damn it) When bad it's like a vice that crams in from the sides of my head and up my neck.

 

Basically I need to paint a bit of a picture of where I'm at. It's been 3 months off Remeron now. I can still function ie: drive car, cook meals, read, have conversations etc.. I feel my best in the morning and can go out and do a few things - food shop, walk dog, visit family etc.. My afternoons start to go down hill... Headaches come on slowly and need to be in a quiet dark place reading or when bad cold flannel compress and eyes closed. Get pretty tired around then and feel like I'm in a bit of a different time zone. Find it hard to concentrate and just try escape by reading. Evenings are challenging as I'm tired and often get a bit of building tension etc until I take my 7.5mg zopiclone for sleep. I sleep well on this.

 

In your experience is this experience worth continuing to quietly pursue in the hopes things get better? Or is this too much of a risk that protracted withdrawal may develop (since I had that after venlofaxine discontinuation)

 

I have a few dilemmas I'm contending with. I live with my parents who are an incredible support but also very pro doctors and getting medical advice from professionals. My dad is a doctor himself! I explained that I'm going through withdrawal syndrome and they believe me. But they will not support me making a liquid solution of remeron to reinstate as they view this as unreliable self medicating. The smallest remeron pills we get here are 30mg sol tabs and I'm not sure how confident I am to accurately extract 1mg from a solution correctly. I'm lacking confidence here.

 

I have a community mental health nurse that visits each Friday who is very supportive. She has booked in with me to see a new psych who is supposed to be very capassionate and caring (hopefully miles better than the last one I saw and refuse to see again). I'm willing to listen to his ideas - although I have pretty big trust issues with doctors and medications due to my bad venlofaxine experience followed by yucky Mirtazapine experience. Anyways I'm hoping to try get him on board with reinstating a small amount of Remeron.

 

I guess what I'm needing is lots of reassurance right now. I'm not taking the choice to start any medication lightly and will be consulting with you guys along the way as well as my family and the nurse.

 

Thanks in advance for your advice!

 

Ps: not sure how to set up the signature from smartphone or do I need to do that from a laptop?

 

Bex ❤️

[KarenB]

Hi there Bex, I see you are up late too .  I think this hot weather doesn't help, on top of all the w/d stuff we have going on. 

 

Windows and waves pattern of stabilisation will explain why your headaches got better and then worse. 

 

I do think that reinstatement would be worth a shot.  We have seen here on s/a that healing after too-fast tapers can take months or years.  Have a read of that link (in the posts above) because you need to make sure it is your decision.  

 

Learning to make a liquid dose will be important, because 30mg would be a very big leap to make.  You would probably only need 1-2mg to provide relief for your CNS in order to stabilise.  Perhaps you could get the equipment and practice with syringe and water in order to become familiar with them.  Most people learn to do it eventually, but I think it can just seem all scientific and scary at first thought.

 

Do you think your parents would read any of these links?  (Actually, I'm just wondering whether you are an adult living at home, or a teenager?  Sorry if you've said before).   

 

It is easier to set up a sig. from a laptop, but there are instructions for doing it from a phone here and here.

 

Zopiclone will also eventually need tapering, but it can be done a little quicker than the 10% method. 

 

Let us know what you think - we really want you to come through this okay.

Karen

[nz11]

Welcome Kiwibex

 

Be good to know when you first started taking these drugs you havent told us when you started.

 

But they will not support me making a liquid solution of remeron to reinstate as they view this as unreliable self medicating. The smallest remeron pills we get here are 30mg sol tabs and I'm not sure how confident I am to accurately extract 1mg from a solution correctly. I'm lacking confidence here.

If you are wanting to do liquid you can make your own, as suggested, (one easy way is to put 'x' mg in 'x' ml then you have a 1mg :1 ml ratio which may be easier on the brain calculations eg 30mg tablet in 30mls of water) 

 

However a place exists in NZ that makes liquid up for you if your dad/parents dont like a DIY idea.

 

Songbird another kiwi member advises (in the kiwi members thread) :

if you are a New Zealander wanting to get liquid made for tapering, contact PCNZ (www.pharmaceutical.co.nz).  They figured out the formula to make paroxetine liquid for me, so if you need paroxetine liquid they already have the formula.  For other medicines, it might be a good idea to contact them first, so that if necessary they can figure out the formula they'll need to make it.  You'll also need to choose the concentration you want - I chose 1mg/ml so no conversion was required to figure out doses, and very small drops can be done with a 1ml syringe.  You'll need a prescription from your doc sent through to them to get it made up, and they can courier it to you.  I get three bottles sent at a time, but there's some new law about the maximum that can be sent at a time (500ml maybe?) so I'm currently getting three bottles each containing 150ml.  The bottles should be kept refrigerated, and the contents last six months unopened, and one month once opened.  It is not cheap, about $55 per bottle, but worth it if you need to do very small dose drops.

 

if you feel the wdl is too much to cope with then as Fresh mentioned a small dose ri is the best way to try to alleviate wdl symptoms. There are no guarantees.

 

My dad is a doctor himself!

So what does he have to say about all this. I assume he is prescribing this stuff to people right?

I would personally like to invite your father to spend some time reading/ viewing this site. So he can see the life altering adverse effects that these drugs are doing to people worldwide and in nz because  the med prof in NZ is holding to wrong paradigms and untruths.

 

They would not give me the Remeron as they said 3mg was such a small dose hardly worth being on.

Well someone with an experience is never at the mercy of someone with an opinion and your nervous system despite what the doc say is the final judge on this.

Many here are having trouble getting off this kind of ‘small’ dose.

Actually reading a good brilliant  book at the moment 'the emporers new drugs by Kirsch. He has a paragraph titled "A little goes a long way".

Kirsch writes 'We found that there was no difference between the effect of a high dose of antidepressant and the effect of a low dose.'

 

She has booked in with me to see a new psych who is supposed to be very capassionate and caring

I don’t want to be the party pooper here but you could be wasting your time. What are you hoping to get from this.

If you want a remeron prescription your dad could do that for you.

 

 I am writing complaint letters to these people at the moment this is what i get back..."these drugs do not cause the effects you describe"...."not being given a tapering schedule is a minor issue"...and so it goes on

 

In my opinion and experience it is not safe to engage with these people in a conversation. They will attempt to prescribe more drugs. There is a good chance that they will not acknowledge withdrawal syndrome (in fact thats a definite and anything beyond 2 weeks of suffering is a relapse) and will escalate the diagnosis/labelling. They have already tried to tell you that you are treatment resistant which means they have no idea about wdl or safe tapering.

 

I find it odd that they declare you ‘treatment resistant’ but then  hit you with a drug.

 

The difficulty in getting off these drugs is due to medical ignorance not, resistant mis-wiring in you.

 

There is an addiction we all have had to break …its called patient-hood.

This is the age of information and ignorance is now a choice.

Imo you would be much better served spending time informing yourself of your situation from this site, take control of your situation rather than trying to get something useful or insightful out of a pdoc in NZ.

 

This is what I got told from a pdoc in nz … i recorded it ,

…………..//……………………………

Nz11: Are you aware of the withdrawal symptoms from this drug?

 pdoc: Yeah

nz: Do you know what they are?

p: What you have..arr..er

nz: described….

p: …described is some of what I have seen.  Mostly what I see is chronic anxiety and by chronic I mean for a month or two and of course….the major thing to appear is a rebound in depression that’s probably the thing I see most commonly and it’s because people have stopped on their own you know they take it for a while they feel better and they say ‘ahh fine’ and they stop taking it. Same reason people stop taking antibiotics they got an infection and they stop too soon and the result is the drug resistant bacteria.

…………………….//…………………………………………

That was what i would call a whole heap of Manawatu Cow Manure! ..and unfortunately these people refuse to stop  and smell what they are shoveling.

This man was completely oblivious to safe tapering. Tapering didnt even appear on his radar as a player in peoples plight. He has implied its all about a chemical imbalance...that needs time to  right itself ??? or whatever ?

 

When you see these people watch the language you use ..dont say ‘depressed, anxiety or suicidal’ say protracted ssri wdl, akathisia (this is uncontrolled restlessness and a psychological panic, includes suicidal ideations ..its iatrogenic in nature - caused by the doctor) or disappointed as In ‘ I am disappointed the doctor didn’t inform me of these withdrawal effects.’   

 

if they say no wdl effects then table the glenmullen checklist. (for you are indeed currently experiencing classic wdl symptoms)

 

Glenmullen has put together a 58 point checklist of wdl symptoms …whenever i tried unsuccessfully to get of the drug I ended up in a heap crying and sobbing daily…did you know the number one symptom on the checklist is crying spells in other words it wasn’t me it was the drug wdl. Yet no one told me.  

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2390-dr-joseph-glenmullens-withdrawal-symptom-checklist/

 

In your experience is this experience worth continuing to quietly pursue in the hopes things get better?

If you choose the option to stay drug free things will slowly get better it could take many months or years no one knows. 

I do see some positive signs though, like this: "I can still function ie: drive car, cook meals, read, have conversations etc" plus you have support from family. I explained that I'm going through withdrawal syndrome and they believe me. That’s not a small thing to have family on board like that.

 

Jan carol posted a good piece on vitamin D and Vit B12 for headaches

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8970-katy91-olanzapine-withdrawal-attempt-no5/?p=189602

 

KarenB gave you a great link on the recovery pattern of windows and waves.

 

Here is one on non-drug methods to cope with wdl

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1112-non-drug-techniques-to-cope-with-emotional-symptoms/

 

Many people do better with fish oil and magnesium supplements, you could try this instead of the zopiclone; see
http://survivinganti...acids-fish-oil/
http://survivinganti...hannel-blocker/

 

Finally here is a book rec for you and your dad

Anatomy of an epidemic by Robert whitaker.

http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Epidemic-Bullets-Psychiatric-Astonishing/dp/1491513217

you can also get this from the library.

also

Your drug may be your problem by P Breggin.

You can get these from the library.

 

I'm feeling terribly vulnerable and don't know who to believe!

No one knows a drug like the ones who have swallowed it ....believe them.

When i was young i always wanted to go to Disneyland ...one day i did. Before i went who did i talk to, people who had been there or people who hadnt?

 

Good luck with the decision making and upcoming appointments.

Let us know how they go.

Always good to get a second opinion from sa.

 

Thankyou for adding another kiwi voice to this site.

Step up and take control ...you can do it.

 

nz11

Cape Foulwind.

 

ps oh yeah one more thing check out this great thread....i wish i was given this in wdl

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10964-the-dr-claire-weekes-method-of-recovering-from-a-sensitized-nervous-system/

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Hi Karen,

I've done the signature!! This might help a little with understanding where I've been. Was first put on antidepressants at age 21 and I'm 38 now. I have had many good years, travel and fun times.  Moved home a few years ago after the protracted withdrawal experience with Venlofaxine. Very lucky to have such a loving supportive family.

 

I have found out about a compounding pharmacy company here in Auckland and have been in touch with them. I just have to get my doctor to put a script through to them and they make up what ever amount I need in capsule form. They do 90 capsules so in 3 month lots. I have not yet decided if that's what I'll do yet. Ive seen my GP and she'll write the script if that's what I decide but she wants me to wait to see the psychiatrist next week.

 

I'm finding it very hard to make a decision right now as I have no 'gut feeling' and I can change my mind so many times depending on who I talk to. I feel very 'swayed' by what people say. This is why I'm going slowly here and reminding myself I'm the only expert on me. I can't make choices in the evening as I feel very vulnerable at those times and tend to talk myself round and round in circles. Thinking about medication sends me into a panic.

 

I really appreciate your calm and gentle guidance. I'm just taking baby steps right now towards what I decide. Thanks ever so much for your ongoing support!

Hope the weather isn't to hot and steamy for you in Raglan right now. I've had a few gentle morning swims at the pools lately which has been good.

 

Rebecca

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Hi NZ11,

Thanks so much for taking the time to provide me with all the info. Really appreciated. My Dad's a great support actually. He's not a GP/Pschiatrist so doesn't prescribe meds. Fully agrees that there are some medical professionals that have no idea of the impact of these meds. I think it's great you're sending in your letters to the appropriate places - giving a voice for others who might not have the strength to do this.

Thanks again for your encouragement. Hope you're having a good week!

Rebecca

[KarenB]

You know what Rebecca?  You sound like you're in a whole different place to last time I heard from you.  Less panicky, and although you haven't made a decision about reinstatement yet, it sounds like you've been able to get a handle on which things need consideration.  This is a good steady base to move forward from. 

 

You and I are similar in age - I am 37.  I'm glad to hear that your parents are so supportive of you.  Perhaps they like the sound of the compounding pharmacy?  It would seem less risky and 'DIY.' 

 

Cheers for getting your sig. done, it makes a big difference to keeping your story straight when we're trying to sort out your next step.  Does it help you to write down your thoughts on reinstatement, and the pros and cons etc?  Then over the course of a few days you can come back to it, add stuff, and keep your thoughts clear.  Kind of map it all out.  At 3 months out I'd still be picking reinstatement - don't want see things get worse for you. 

 

Keep in touch,
Karen

[nz11]

How did the Friday meeting go ?

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Hi guys,

Just a short little update. I seem to have ok mornings - this is when I do things. But then get hit with headachy, tightness around lunchtime and need a few hours in dark room reading/resting due to light sensitivity. Dry tongue sensation is a lot stronger and for longer now. Evenings I feel blimmin awful - emotional, fatigued, breathless and increased body tension. So I feel it's hitting me more 3 months out now.

 

I have compounding pharmacy making up capsules. First lot I'm getting is 45x 1.0mg and 45x 0.5mg. I thought by getting 0.5mg lots gives me the option to go up slower if need be. These won't arrive for a few days yet - hopefully by Friday.

 

I'm sleeping with 7.5 Zopiclone. I Know this will need reducing at some point. At what stage would I do this? Once I'm stable on Mirt at some point?

 

Also are these ok to take together zopiclone and mirtazapine?

 

I have a psychiatrist appointment Thursday. I do also want to check it's ok for me to go back on the mirtazapine since I had the 'psychosis' experience when I came off it by accident. Just need to be careful with that I think.

 

Any support/feedback gratefully will be so gratefully received. (Please no scary stories thanks)

 

Thanks very much in advance

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

ps: despite these yuck withdrawals I'm still at times really reluctant to go back on that Mirtazapine. Is this crazy? Just the numerous horrible side effects puts me off.

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

pps: Thanks Karen B for your last reply too. I did what you said and wrote and pros/cons list. That was helpful advice. Yip once I see psychiatrist will make my choice and atleast I'm having capsules being made up in the meantime. (I think what's hard for me is I feel more myself off this stuff and family report so too - but is that worth it for the withdrawal price?) Interesting to see we're similar ages!

[KarenB]

Hi Bex,

 

You can enter those drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker then paste the results in this thread. 

 

Unless there is a serious interaction indicated, it would be best to get stable on the mirt before tapering Zopiclone. 

 

Tips for tapering Z drugs

 

Taking mirt at a lower dosage should reduce the liklihood of any psychosis reoccurring, and hopefully most other symptoms too.  

 

You've got a sound plan Bex, just give yourself lots of self-care while you are waiting for the pills to arrive.  Rest, drink lots of water, avoid stress etc.

 

Hugs,

Karen

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Big hugs Karen! You rock!

[nz11]

ps: despite these yuck withdrawals I'm still at times really reluctant to go back on that Mirtazapine. Is this crazy? Just the numerous horrible side effects puts me off.

Just wanted to say that if you think you can cope with the withdrawal symptoms and dont want to go back on then its your call you dont have to go back on imo.

 

I seem to have ok mornings - this is when I do things.

Well that is a good sign

 

But then get hit with headachy, tightness around lunchtime and need a few hours in dark room reading/resting due to light sensitivity. Dry tongue sensation is a lot stronger and for longer now. Evenings I feel blimmin awful - emotional, fatigued, breathless and increased body tension. So I feel it's hitting me more 3 months out now.

Do you think you can cope with the emotional? You are getting windows in the morning right? That is usually the worst time for most.

You can try relaxation techniques to cope with the physical . Warm baths.

You are also able to read that is a positive as well.

In my diary i found at 3 months off things didnt worsen but were just the same old same old daily for about 18 months. Its not like you tapered in 3 weeks say . You have done a better than most crack at it.

 

On the other hand if you feel like you cant cope with wdls then ri is an option.

Healing occurs in waves and windows.

 

I think what's hard for me is I feel more myself off this stuff and family report so too

Again you dont have to do anything you dont want to do.

 

Let us know how the pdoc visit goes.

 

Whats your defn of psychosis?

It may simply be the triggering of neuro emotions which are wdl symptoms. If you use words like that in front of the pdoc it may not be helpful in my opinion.

They will say things like oh you have been off the drug for 3 months now so your symptoms cant be due to the drug you are not on it. They do not acknowledge wdl.

 

There are pdocs in this country who think episodes of psychosis need to be treated with a drug to protect the brain- an antipsychotic.

[nz11]

kiwibex are you able to give us an update.

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Hi there,

 

I haven't been on here recently guys because I have been considering the psychiatrists point of view and trying to take things slow without too much input from too many sources. The agitation was beginning to esculate and this was causing me a lot of emotional distress not to mention those around me too. I talked things through with family, nurse psych etc... and we decided to put me on a low dose of Olanzapine (2.5mg) and this has helped with the agitation a lot.

 

Please, please don't judge me badly for deciding to go on medication. I could not bear the thought of going back on Mirtazapine. So this was the decision I made as continuing on was too difficult and the thought of Remeron was just too awful.

 

I have only taken Olanzapine for 2 nights and tried to reduce the 7.5 mg Zopiclone I've been on (since Nov). I took 1/2  7.5mg the first night and woke at 4am for the day so last night I went back up to 3/4 of 7.5mg. I feel quite jittery from lunchtime onward and know this will be due to that. Ive read up about the Z drugs and saw 25% reduction per week is suggested so thought I would stick to 3/4 of Zopiclone for quite a few weeks before reducing to half.

 

What do you think about this Zopiclone reduction?

 

Please just gentle guidance comments. I'm very vulnerable.

 

 

Thanks in advance

 

(ps:Thanks NZ11 and KarenB for your help so far)

[nz11]

Thanks for taking the time to update.

 

Well at least you have some finality in your decision making and that should help to take some stress away. So well done on making a decision.

 

You say after considering the psychiatrists point of view...May i ask what was his point of view? Did he acknowledge you were in remeron wdl?

 

Hope you get some stability soon.

[KarenB]

Hey Bex,

 

I'm glad you are making decisions that you can feel comfortable with.  It's not an easy process at all.  Your plans for reducing the Zoplicone sound fine - as always, continue to pay attention to any signals from your body. 

 

And there is no judgement from here.  We all do the best we can - and you are too.  I went back on drugs a couple of times before I managed to start tapering.  We'll always be here whenever you need to talk.  

 

So just keep being gentle with yourself, lots of self-care and acceptance.  You deserve good things .

 

Hugs,

Karen

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Hi NZ11,

The psych was really good. He acknowledged that some of my symptoms are withdrawal symptoms. Was by far the best I've seen. Thanks for your support. ????

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Thanks for your lovely message Karen. Most appreciated.

Big hugs back! ????

[Fresh]

Hi KiwiBex ,    great to hear you've made a decision and it seems to be helping.

No one here is suggesting you stay off medication at all costs , that's why we suggested reinstating.  Suffering

unnecessarily isn't a way to live.

 

It takes 4 days to get to a steady-state in you blood stream after reinstating.  I wouldn't push the zopiclone reduction

too fast.  All your brain wants is to recover , and the less changes you make for the next week or two the better.

 

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Thank you Fresh. Really appreciate your advice. Thanks so much ????

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Hi lovely SA folk,

It's been about 6 weeks since I've updated and I really need some advice and support. Please see my recent addition to signature for March.

I seem to get my worst symptoms in the evening. Is this likely because that's when I took the Remeron before bed? I've been off it 5 months now. I was getting a bit of agitation in the evenings then this progressed to blimmin awful rotton akathesia. Never knew what this really was until then. It's a real s******!! I had 3 nights lying down on the floor shaking uncontrollably and praying for it to end. To me this was true terror. Is this likely Remeron withdrawal?

I was prescribed Olanzapine 2.5mg which is a low dose. Took it for a week but stopped after the cursed side effects began to show themselves: voracious hunger, dry mouth, some agitation still, more mentally tired, thoughts a bit slower.

My psych was away so saw the GP who had his plan. She suggested quetiapine. I was very hesitant. The good thing about the psych and GP there is they believe I'm suffering withdrawal and respect my big sensitivity towards medication. She said she'll prescribe the smallest dose possible 12.5 mg quetiapine. I was really at a loss as to what to do. As I can tolerate suffering but Akathesia is a whole new level of terror for me. I agreed that I'd try it for a few days and see. Bad choice!!!

I took 12.5 mg for a night and was a bit mentally tired and headachy so thought I'll reduce the dose to 6.25mg. The next day I had an odd 'stunned' feeling where I felt very removed, couldn't think for a few mins. The following couple of days I had this happen again a few more times and I noticed a lowering in mood and thought - heck this is getting worse so I stopped! But unfortunately the adverse effects have continued and worsened a bit more once stopping too. It 's effected my sleep I wake early round 4 am now (was sleeping well through on 7.5mg zopiclone) . My mood is much lower and now it's hard to get out of bed in the mornings. (Up till this med I could rely on a good mood in the morn) I know stare off into space a lot more - bit more of a depressed zombie at times. Harder to focus and vacant at times. But the worst of the lot is obsessive thinking that goes round and round and getting dark morbid thoughts about death/ dying. I have never had dark intrusive thoughts like this. It's scary!!! I have had some crazy mood fluctuations in the evening too - crying one min then laughing the next. I'm now back to a foggy headachy head again too.

Guys I'm truly devastated at the impact taking this drug for just 4 nights has had. Dealing with these new 'mental issues' is so so much more challenging on top of what I had anyway! I have to constantly self talk reminding myself this isn't me thinking this this is the medication. It's been about 5 weeks off this med now. Is there any idea how long these recent symptoms could last? I had the crisis team call to check up on me a few weeks ago. My nurse that visits weekly is surprised the symptoms are still there. Is this now my new reality?

FYI: Other symptoms I'm currently experiencing: breathing issues on and off, DP/DR, cognitive impairment - live moment to moment, can't seem to set up new organisation/systems or routines, find it hard to think of things to do to occupy my time, apathetic, agoraphobic, no feeling for time constraints just sort of drifting in this dreamy world - is this depersonalisation? At times light sensitive and wear sunglasses or draw curtains, suffer from over stimulation at times - brain becomes intensely fatigued and have to lie down and shut curtains and close my eyes. Am I in the full throes of protracted withdrawal now?

On a positive note I'm still functioning in that I can cook, drive, have conversations, watch TV/movies, take dog for walks, do supermarket shopping.

Any help, support, guidance and/or advice would be so appreciated. I'm vulnerable and a bit traumatised by these recent developments It's taken a bit of guts just for me to get on and post all this. Thanks heaps in advance.

Bex

[nz11]

Hi Bex

Thanks for taking the time to give us an update. Even if things are not great.

 

Well i have to say i am relieved you are not taking antipsychotic drugs anymore.

As you can see these drugs are very dangerous.

Besides i thought they had declared you 'treatment resistant' so how come then they are throwing more drugs at you!?

 

The psych was really good. He acknowledged that 'some' of my symptoms are withdrawal symptoms.

These people really have problems acknowledging iatrogenic injuries dont they. They cant help but leave room to blame the patient.

imo all of your symptoms are wdl symptoms.

Look at post #11 they used the same explanation on me too ...'some' of what you describe are wdl symptoms!!

 

I would consider to resolve now to 'refuse' any more drugs from doctors.

Perhaps this is the time to hunker down in the trenches and let the body heal and it may take a long time.

 

You might consider resolving to stay away from pdocs (as soon as you voice discomfort in their presence...then bang you are drugged) and if mental health nurses are singing the same ignorant backup vocals then they may not be helpful to have around either.

 

If things are completely unmanageable then, despite you not wanting to take remeron, the smallest of doses might be of help. See post #2 from Fresh.

Switching often does not cover the wdl symptoms and can open the door to even more problems.

 

 

Am I in the full throes of protracted withdrawal now?

Yes i believe you are. This is the time to be patient. You are not alone. Easier said than done though eh.

 

On a positive note I'm still functioning in that I can cook, drive, have conversations, watch TV/movies, take dog for walks, do supermarket shopping.

Well this sure is a positive for sure.

 

Continue to keep updating.

Wishing you stability.

 

nz11

[ChessieCat]

Hi Bex,

 

I suggest you wait for one of the more experienced mods to weigh in on the reinstatement amount.  The post from Fresh was 13 January 2016 suggesting 1mg.  That's nearly 3 months ago now. You may need to try an even smaller amount.

[mammaP]

Hi Bex, I have just been reading your experience and am sorry that things are so bad for you right now. You are much worse since trying the olanzapine and quitiapen, which have further destabilised your already fragile nervous system.  I wouldn't recommend reinstating because of the risk of further reactions.  Things will settle down again with time and self care, but we all have that urge to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING, to feel better and keep going. 

Are you still tapering zopiclone? When do you take it? Feeling bad in the evenings could be withdrawal that is relieved by the next dose of zopiclone. I have this with tramadol, feeling awful later in the day because I am needing the tramadol, and feel different after taking it. Not better, because  the side effects are not very nice , but different to the withdrawal feeling .

 

 It's good that you are still managing to go to work, it must be hard for you so well done for keeping going through this nightmare.  

This will pass, take good care of yourself  and hold on to any good feelings that pass by, they are a reminder that this will pass.

 

If you decide that you have to reinstate then a very tiny dose  to start would be the way to go. If you can measure just 1/4 mg in case you have a reaction. CC is right that 1mg might be too much now, especially after the reaction to the other drugs. 

 

Keep a diary of symptoms so that you can see the pattern and find if something triggers symptoms.  I can't see zopiclone in your signature so it would be good if you can include it for us.  

 

MammaP 

[Altostrata]

Hello, Bex.

 

What drugs are you taking now, even non-psychiatric drugs, at what dosages, and what time of day?

 

You say you get "akathisia" in the evening -- what time? What does it feel like?

 

Please keep notes on paper about your daily symptom pattern and any drugs or supplements you take. For example, do you have a cup of coffee in the afternoon?

[KiwiBexonthenoffRemeron]

Thank you everyone for your responses!

 

Since coming off Remeron end of October (by accident if you see earlier thread) I have been taking 7.5mg Zopiclone at night. I tried to taper this a few weeks ago when I tried the Olanzapiine but got very jittery and realised I needed to leave it so I've been taking 3/4 of a 7.5 mg tablet the last few months. I nip the end off with scissors so it's probably 6mg-ish.

 

Thanks Mama P for sharing about why I may feel awful at night. I get breathless and inner tremor at night (sometimes back tension) which is then relieved by the zopiclone which I take before bed 9pm sort of time. I'm not working - just at home trying to do chores and help run the home when I can.

 

Alto - Only other meds I take are Ginet 84 combined contraceptive pill and 2 fish oil in the morning. I only had 3 experiences of the Akathesia before. I think the Quetiapine may have stopped it but unfortunately caused these other problems. I get a bit of inner tremor at night though before zopiclone. I will keep taking notes of symptoms. I don't drink coffee and have been off alcohol for ages. Thanks so much for your time.

 

I haven't included this in my signature but need to mention that I have always taken the contraceptive pill for polycystic ovaries symptoms. I have had 3 'breakdowns' in the past and only realised the third time around that they coincided with either coming off the pill or changing pills while on anti-anxiety medication. This is what then led dotors to trying a different medication on me to 'fix' the new anxiety symptoms. I never realised 'the pill' could have such a big impact. Each time in withdrawal the PMT symptoms would become very intense which then led me back to going on the contraceptive pill again. I wonder if anyone can comment on this? Doctors never seemed to think the pill had much to do with my issues.

 

I'm not sure I can go back on the Remeron now as I don't have any more. My doctor and psych decided it was too risky. My parents (who are my main support) also didn't want me too. I don't know where I would get it and feel uncomfortable making a change again without the support of those around me.

 

Oh gosh guys I'm quite scared about what's happening to me. I really didn't mean for any of this to happen. I so appreciate your help/support as I don't know what to do. Thanks so very much.

 

Bex

[nz11]

This is not my topic but I’m currently reading A Mind of your own by Kelly Brogan you might like to get yourself a copy from the library.

Here are some excerpts....These may or may not be of interest...if it isnt i apologise.

 

She talks about birth control on page 115 – 118.

 

With more than 100 million women around the world using this form of hormonal suppression, I have to wonder how many of them have had any exposure to information about the pill's subtle disruptions to the system, not to mention the risks of thromboembolism – major blood clots, hypertension – high blood pressure, cerebrovascular events, gallstones, and cancer.

 

There is, however acknowledgement that depression is the most common reason for stopping the pill. I don't need to be persuaded by studies that demonstrate that woman using the pill are significantly more depressed than a control group of woman not on the pill. I see this phenomena first hand, most notably in those who begin contraception postpartum.

...(..)...

Although the data pointing to a relationship between the pill and mood disorders is compromised by poorly done studies, [this has a familiar ring to it!-nz11] what we can cull from the findings is that oral contraceptives represent a major risk factor for depression and/or a related mood disturbance for certain woman…[she goes on to list who these sorts of woman might be eg experiencing pregnancy/postpartum, pre-menstrual periods, and being of young age plus others]…(…)… because so many critical questions have not been asked about what happens when we manipulate the hormonal pathways and feedback loops in the body, we rely on observational research conducted on those already taking the pill.

 

Unfortunately, this means documenting those who experience serious complications relating to the pill, from heart attacks and strokes to seizures, liver tumours, severe mood swings, and suicide.

 

These include young girls and women prescribed the pill for acne or regular periods and those who just want to avoid having an inconvenient period altogether. These dangerous reactions pepper a landscape of falttened mood, libido, personality changes, and autoimmune disease all related to the effects of synthetic estrogen and progesterone that entail adverse changes to the microbiome, metabolism, and inflammatory pathways.

 

Who ends up treating these insidious side-effects? You guessed it. Your trusted psychiatrist, with prescription pad in hand.

 

This is why new data implicating the pill and brain based changes may finally usher in research confirming what millions of people around the world have been complaining about for decades: the pill makes them crazy, makes them depressed, and makes them anxious.

 

 

...........//..........

 

Withdrawal is scary but try not to let it scare you. You will be okay.

You are not alone...You are in good company there are a lot of scaredy cats here (myself included)...but together we are strong and in a way much like snowflakes we are moving cars!!