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☼ ZK2015: Prozac withdrawal symptoms


ZK2015

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Hi,

 

I'm a 27 years old male, I started taking antidepressants on my own without doctor consultation about 3 and half years ago due to some emotional trauma.

 

First I took Paxil 20mg for 2 and half years then I decided I don't need it anymore so I stopped taking it abruptly and I had very nasty withdrawal symptoms which I didn't have before taking the medication like severe depression and hopelessness, anxiety and suicidal thoughts but no physical symptoms though, so I returned to the medication for a month then switched to Prozac 20mg (cold turkey) for six months to ease the withdrawal symptoms.

 

I then started tapering down Prozac over another 6 months by skipping doses since 20mg i.e. taking a pill every other day for a month then every 2 days for a month and so on till I stopped it completely about 2 and half months ago.

I was doing fine during the tapering period and the 2 and half months after I stopped completely, then 2 days ago when I started having a depression episode and feelings of hopelessness like the ones I had when I tried to quit Paxil, however not as severe but still very bad, and again no physical symptoms just the depression and hopelessness feeling which I didn't have before taking the medicine in the first place.

 

are these withdrawal symptoms or new illness since they appeared 2 and half months after stopping, also how long are they going to last?

I have been doing a lot of internet research lately and I see some say that the symptoms last for 3 weeks and others say that they last for months or even years and may not completely disappear... so I don't really know what to expect...

Paxil 20mg 3/2012 - 11/2014 - C/T for 2 weeks then back again till 1/2015

Prozac 20mg 2/2015 - 10/2015 - Tapered down by skipping doses but got withdrawal symptoms

Reinstated 20mg Prozac 18/1/2016

Started tapering Prozac again 3/2016

Off the meds completely since 17/4/2017 - Last Prozac dosage 0.1mg

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Welcome. Can you please add your drug history signature? It will help to know your context. Once we know that, we can help with tapering. Skipping doses is not advised here.  It destabilizes your C.N.S.

http://Please put your withdrawal history in your signature

Ali

Many SSRI's and SSNRI's over 20 years. Zoloft for 7 years followed by Effexor, Lexapro, Prozac, Cymbalta, Celexa, Pristiq, Valdoxan, Mianserin and more - on and off. No tapering. Cold turkey off Valdoxan - end of May 2014

 

                                                  Psych Drug - free since May 2014
.
         

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  • Moderator

Hi ZK-- Welcome to the group.  It sounds like you have a good case of withdrawal.  Probably stemming back to your original CT from the Paxil a year ago nd then compounded by all the interim changes.  We don't recommend alternating days on dosing here because it really confuses the brain by throwing it into WD ever other day.  It tends to make the CNS very sensitive to the affects of the drugs.  There is frequently a delay of several months before the symptoms really start to hit.

 

What is withdrawal syndrome? 

 

Being that you're two and a half months off, it puts you in a tricky place to try reinstatement.  By reinstating around 1-2mg of the prozac you should get some relief from the symptoms once you stabilize, which could take several months.  Once you're stable,then we can help you establish a slow taper which should get you off of the drugs with a minimum of pain.

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms 

 

Tips for tapering off Prozac (fluoxetine)

 

To repeat what Ali asked, would you please add a signature block with the details of your use.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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Thanks for the responses,

 

tapering down the dose was not really an option for me since 20mg is the only concentration available for both Paxil and Prozac in my country and there's no liquid form...

I went to a psychiatrist for the first time yesterday and he told me that the drug is long gone from my system and that this is a relapse, I tried to convince him that I didn't have any of these symptoms before taking the meds he said that these are new illnesses coming up.

 

brassmonkey: what do you mean this is stemming back to the Paxil CT a year ago, shouldn't that be long gone by now?

Paxil 20mg 3/2012 - 11/2014 - C/T for 2 weeks then back again till 1/2015

Prozac 20mg 2/2015 - 10/2015 - Tapered down by skipping doses but got withdrawal symptoms

Reinstated 20mg Prozac 18/1/2016

Started tapering Prozac again 3/2016

Off the meds completely since 17/4/2017 - Last Prozac dosage 0.1mg

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hello ZK,

 

If you did want to try a reinstatement, the Prozac link Brass posted has instructions for making a liquid from Prozac yourself.  Then you'd be able to make the small doses necessary. 

 

Welcome to s/a,

Karen

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

My story of healing:ContinuedHealing

***I am not a doctor; please do your own research and be able to take responsibility for decisions you make.*** 

           'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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  • Moderator

Hi ZK-- These drugs have a nasty habit of causing problems for a long time.  I have several friends here that CTed 40mg of Paxil at the same time that I started my taper from 40mg of Paxil.  They are all still having bad WD symptoms, while all though not symptom free I am not having nearly the experience they are.  The length of time varies from person to person, but it is very common to still be having serious symptoms a year out from a ct.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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thanks brass, karen for the response...

 

I mean shouldn't the switch to Prozac after Paxil for almost 9 month eliminate any WD from Paxil?

 

anyway, I reinstated Prozac yesterday and will start the taper after the current WD disappear...my question however is using this gradual tapering is it possible to come off the meds without these horrible WD? as I've read that a lot of people have WD for years and it is freaking me out

 

also regarding making liquid Prozac from capsules, I know that the capsule shells keep the drug intact to be digested in the small intestines, wouldn't breaking the capsule decrease the drug efficiency?

 

sorry for the many questions

Paxil 20mg 3/2012 - 11/2014 - C/T for 2 weeks then back again till 1/2015

Prozac 20mg 2/2015 - 10/2015 - Tapered down by skipping doses but got withdrawal symptoms

Reinstated 20mg Prozac 18/1/2016

Started tapering Prozac again 3/2016

Off the meds completely since 17/4/2017 - Last Prozac dosage 0.1mg

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Hi ZK. I hope the reinstatement is successful for you. It would be a good idea to keep notes on your symptoms over the next few weeks. What dose did you reinstate? If you could update your history, that would be great . If you hold for a good while and taper off gently, at a slow pace you should be in the best place to minimize withdrawal symptoms. Please have a read through these links.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6632-the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable/

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

There are no guarantees, but with a slow taper you will be in the best position to be successful , in the long term. Try to stay positive .

Ali

Many SSRI's and SSNRI's over 20 years. Zoloft for 7 years followed by Effexor, Lexapro, Prozac, Cymbalta, Celexa, Pristiq, Valdoxan, Mianserin and more - on and off. No tapering. Cold turkey off Valdoxan - end of May 2014

 

                                                  Psych Drug - free since May 2014
.
         

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  • Moderator

Hi ZK-- although these drugs work in the same manner they are not interchangeable.  So taking the Prozac will not remove the symptoms of the paxil WD, at best it will make you not care about them.  The whole idea behind doing a long slow taper is to let the body adjust to having less of the drug and minimize the symptoms.  Ideally with a really slow taper there should be not symptoms at all.  Some of the people doing microtapers  report having almost none.  One rule of thumb is that if you're feeling bad symptoms you're going too fast.  Because it can be a long drawn out process keeping symptoms to a minimum is important so people can maintain as normal a life as possible.

 

Removing the contents from a capsule to make a liquid will change the characteristics a bit. Letting the body absorb it faster is the main difference.  We recommend that when a person changes from pill form to liquid that they treat it as a dose change and allow a week or more for things to settle out before  making any adjustment.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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Ali: I have gone back to 20mg capsules since I didn't make the liquid yet, I was thinking of staying on the 20mg capsules till the WD disappear then taper fast at the beginning like going directly to 10 or 5mg snd stay there for a while since I don't have much WD when skipping doses either on Prozac or when I was on paxil and my WD takes some time till they appear (took 2 weeks after stopping Paxil and 2.5 months after stopping Prozac) so I figure a quick initial taper will be OK.

 

brass doesn't this mean that even after tapering Prozac I will still have WD from Paxil?

Paxil 20mg 3/2012 - 11/2014 - C/T for 2 weeks then back again till 1/2015

Prozac 20mg 2/2015 - 10/2015 - Tapered down by skipping doses but got withdrawal symptoms

Reinstated 20mg Prozac 18/1/2016

Started tapering Prozac again 3/2016

Off the meds completely since 17/4/2017 - Last Prozac dosage 0.1mg

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  • Moderator

Not necessarily, by the time you have stabilized and then gone through a slow Prozac taper the paxil wd should have worked its way out. You've been off of it long enough that the paxil WD should be starting to subside and will improve over the next few months.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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Get ZK we have similar stories I was on effexor xr and used prozac last summer to get off of the effecor xr I quit prozac kate September 2015 and did pretty well for about 6 weeks then had a couple of hick ups but did well until two weeks ago now I am trying to reinstate prozac hope you are doing well! Pkease post how your reinstatement goes

1995 - 2015 antidepressants and antianxiety medicine
Multiple failed attempts to quit/taper anti d/anti anxiety meds since 2008

June 17, 2016 began prozac bridge to get off of effexor xr, stopped effexor xr on June 24, 2016, could not tolerate prozac due to severe side effects so I had to stop it  Currently...300 mg ER of lithium, 1 mg of estradiol, 60 mg propranolol ER, Fish oil 2 x a day, Magnesium Glycinate,  zinc, vitamin c, vitamin d, NAC

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi downtongirl hope your reinstatement is going well

My symptoms started to subside after the 4th dose, although not completely gone but at least they are tolerable now, I was thinking of stablizing for a month before starting to taper.

Paxil 20mg 3/2012 - 11/2014 - C/T for 2 weeks then back again till 1/2015

Prozac 20mg 2/2015 - 10/2015 - Tapered down by skipping doses but got withdrawal symptoms

Reinstated 20mg Prozac 18/1/2016

Started tapering Prozac again 3/2016

Off the meds completely since 17/4/2017 - Last Prozac dosage 0.1mg

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi ZK , that's lovely to hear that your symptoms are resolving.  You should find things continue to improve over the

next month or two.

 

It would sensible to have a good long hold after this episode.  Your system has been in a serious state of flux for about

3 months , so I'd give it at least 3 months to recover before tapering.

 

I'm intrigued about how you got ad's for 3 years without a doctor?  

 

bw ,  Fresh

1987-1997 pertofran , prothiaden , Prozac 1997-2002 Zoloft 2002-2004 effexor 2004-2010 Lexapro 40mg

2010-2012Cymbalta 120mg

Sept. 2012 -decreased 90mg in 6months. Care taken over by Dr Lucire in March 2013 , decreased last 30mg at 2mg per week over 3 months. July 21 , 2013- last dose of Cymbalta

Protracted withdrawal syndrome kicked in badly Jan.2014 Unrelenting akathisia until May 2014. Voluntary hosp. admission. Cocktail of Seroquel, Ativan and mirtazapine and I was well enough to go home after 14 days. Stopped all hosp. meds in next few months.

July 2014 felt v.depressed - couldn't stop crying. Started pristiq 50mg. Felt improvement within days and continued to improve, so stayed on 50mg for 8 months.

Began taper 28 Feb. 2015. Pristiq 50mg down to 45mg. Had one month of w/d symptoms. Started CES therapy in March. No w/d symptoms down to 30mg.

October 2015 , taking 25mg Pristiq. Capsules compounded with slow-release additive.

March 2016 , 21mg

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Hi downtongirl hope your reinstatement is going well

My symptoms started to subside after the 4th dose, although not completely gone but at least they are tolerable now, I was thinking of stablizing for a month before starting to taper.

 

Glad to hear you are feeling better ZK.  I have a question for you....do i have this right....you went directly from paxil to prozac and you stayed on prozac for 6 months and you got hit with this withdrawal 2.5 months after being off of prozac?  Would you mind sharing what your withdrawal symptoms have been and which ones have improved since your reinstatement?  Thanks!

1995 - 2015 antidepressants and antianxiety medicine
Multiple failed attempts to quit/taper anti d/anti anxiety meds since 2008

June 17, 2016 began prozac bridge to get off of effexor xr, stopped effexor xr on June 24, 2016, could not tolerate prozac due to severe side effects so I had to stop it  Currently...300 mg ER of lithium, 1 mg of estradiol, 60 mg propranolol ER, Fish oil 2 x a day, Magnesium Glycinate,  zinc, vitamin c, vitamin d, NAC

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi ZK , that's lovely to hear that your symptoms are resolving. You should find things continue to improve over the

next month or two.

 

It would sensible to have a good long hold after this episode. Your system has been in a serious state of flux for about

3 months , so I'd give it at least 3 months to recover before tapering.

 

I'm intrigued about how you got ad's for 3 years without a doctor?

 

bw , Fresh

Thanks for the tip fresh..

you can get ad's without a prescription in Egypt

Paxil 20mg 3/2012 - 11/2014 - C/T for 2 weeks then back again till 1/2015

Prozac 20mg 2/2015 - 10/2015 - Tapered down by skipping doses but got withdrawal symptoms

Reinstated 20mg Prozac 18/1/2016

Started tapering Prozac again 3/2016

Off the meds completely since 17/4/2017 - Last Prozac dosage 0.1mg

Link to comment

 

Hi downtongirl hope your reinstatement is going well

My symptoms started to subside after the 4th dose, although not completely gone but at least they are tolerable now, I was thinking of stablizing for a month before starting to taper.

Glad to hear you are feeling better ZK. I have a question for you....do i have this right....you went directly from paxil to prozac and you stayed on prozac for 6 months and you got hit with this withdrawal 2.5 months after being off of prozac? Would you mind sharing what your withdrawal symptoms have been and which ones have improved since your reinstatement? Thanks!
That's right downtongirl, I switched directly to Prozac (fortunately with no problems) stayed on it for six months then started skipping doses for another 4 or 5 months and 2.5 months later I had WD

 

The symptoms were mainly severe depression, anexiety and a crushing hopelessness feeling, the same symptoms I had when I tried to quit Paxil...

 

Now it's 5 days since I reinstated and I'm still feeling a bit down and anxious but nothing compared to what I felt 5 days ago, however I've been forcing myself out alot for the past couple of days and have been exercising more so may be that helped I dont know

 

Hope that helps

Paxil 20mg 3/2012 - 11/2014 - C/T for 2 weeks then back again till 1/2015

Prozac 20mg 2/2015 - 10/2015 - Tapered down by skipping doses but got withdrawal symptoms

Reinstated 20mg Prozac 18/1/2016

Started tapering Prozac again 3/2016

Off the meds completely since 17/4/2017 - Last Prozac dosage 0.1mg

Link to comment

 

 

Hi downtongirl hope your reinstatement is going well

My symptoms started to subside after the 4th dose, although not completely gone but at least they are tolerable now, I was thinking of stablizing for a month before starting to taper.

Glad to hear you are feeling better ZK. I have a question for you....do i have this right....you went directly from paxil to prozac and you stayed on prozac for 6 months and you got hit with this withdrawal 2.5 months after being off of prozac? Would you mind sharing what your withdrawal symptoms have been and which ones have improved since your reinstatement? Thanks!
That's right downtongirl, I switched directly to Prozac (fortunately with no problems) stayed on it for six months then started skipping doses for another 4 or 5 months and 2.5 months later I had WD

 

The symptoms were mainly severe depression, anexiety and a crushing hopelessness feeling, the same symptoms I had when I tried to quit Paxil...

 

Now it's 5 days since I reinstated and I'm still feeling a bit down and anxious but nothing compared to what I felt 5 days ago, however I've been forcing myself out alot for the past couple of days and have been exercising more so may be that helped I dont know

 

Hope that helps

 

 

That's wonderful....glad you feel like getting out...how is your sleep?

1995 - 2015 antidepressants and antianxiety medicine
Multiple failed attempts to quit/taper anti d/anti anxiety meds since 2008

June 17, 2016 began prozac bridge to get off of effexor xr, stopped effexor xr on June 24, 2016, could not tolerate prozac due to severe side effects so I had to stop it  Currently...300 mg ER of lithium, 1 mg of estradiol, 60 mg propranolol ER, Fish oil 2 x a day, Magnesium Glycinate,  zinc, vitamin c, vitamin d, NAC

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi downtongirl hope your reinstatement is going well

My symptoms started to subside after the 4th dose, although not completely gone but at least they are tolerable now, I was thinking of stablizing for a month before starting to taper.

Glad to hear you are feeling better ZK. I have a question for you....do i have this right....you went directly from paxil to prozac and you stayed on prozac for 6 months and you got hit with this withdrawal 2.5 months after being off of prozac? Would you mind sharing what your withdrawal symptoms have been and which ones have improved since your reinstatement? Thanks!
That's right downtongirl, I switched directly to Prozac (fortunately with no problems) stayed on it for six months then started skipping doses for another 4 or 5 months and 2.5 months later I had WD

 

The symptoms were mainly severe depression, anexiety and a crushing hopelessness feeling, the same symptoms I had when I tried to quit Paxil...

 

Now it's 5 days since I reinstated and I'm still feeling a bit down and anxious but nothing compared to what I felt 5 days ago, however I've been forcing myself out alot for the past couple of days and have been exercising more so may be that helped I dont know

 

Hope that helps

 

 

That's wonderful....glad you feel like getting out...how is your sleep?

 

not bad however i wake up depressed sometimes but it wears off after sometime

Paxil 20mg 3/2012 - 11/2014 - C/T for 2 weeks then back again till 1/2015

Prozac 20mg 2/2015 - 10/2015 - Tapered down by skipping doses but got withdrawal symptoms

Reinstated 20mg Prozac 18/1/2016

Started tapering Prozac again 3/2016

Off the meds completely since 17/4/2017 - Last Prozac dosage 0.1mg

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  • 1 year later...

Zk2015 how are doing these days.

Are you able to update?

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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  • Administrator

ZK has given more information about his tapering technique in Tapering according to the serotonin transporter occupancy curve

 

Very happy to hear you're doing better.

 

I added our cheerful "here comes the sun" symbol ☼ to the title of your Intro topic, to show you're recovering.

 

Please continue to let us know how you're doing. I hope you will add your story to our Recovery Success Stories eventually!

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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