grandmaD: turtle here

[grandmaD]

I am truly hope you can manage by using therapy instead of being on drugs, it sure is a much healthier option.  Is this what they call CBT?  Can you tell me what it is in a nutshell?  My eldest son (now 44years old) has been on a/d's and anti-psychotic drugs, etc, suicidal, you name it.  He too, really suffers from childhood issues that he would never address.  He is doing so now, and been advised to do Dialectic Behaviour Therapy and I can only hope he will follow through on it.   As you said, there is plenty out there in the form of counselling and therapy, but it all comes down to whether the person wants that quick fix or is willing to put in the hard work and change!

[grandmaD]

THINGS THAT IMPROVED IN THE 6^th YEAR OF TAPERING

 

Nausea

Indigestion

Migraines – Gradual improvement from 3-5 per drop in early years to 1-2

Sinus – used to be dark yellow phlegm 3-5 days each taper, now only 1 day

Tight chest – frequency about the same, but not as intense

Bloodshot eyes – mostly in the morning now, or evening, not all day

[miT]

8 hours ago, grandmaD said:

I am truly hope you can manage by using therapy instead of being on drugs, it sure is a much healthier option.  Is this what they call CBT?  Can you tell me what it is in a nutshell?  My eldest son (now 44years old) has been on a/d's and anti-psychotic drugs, etc, suicidal, you name it.  He too, really suffers from childhood issues that he would never address.  He is doing so now, and been advised to do Dialectic Behaviour Therapy and I can only hope he will follow through on it.   As you said, there is plenty out there in the form of counselling and therapy, but it all comes down to whether the person wants that quick fix or is willing to put in the hard work and change!

 

I guess CBT distingates from psychoanalysis because in CBT they don't ask why your thinking patterns are negative, or where it originates. Instead you'll learn techniques to cope when you get triggered.

 

I've had psychoanalysis therapy. It's interesting to see when your behaviour is compensation for something you didn't deal with when you were a kid. The books I read now are more CBT alike as of course they don't know me or my youth.

 

The most important thing is that our brain is plastic and that we can rewire it to get rid of negative or compulsive thoughts, even at an older age. But before we can interrupt negativity we have to become aware of our self harming thoughts. We're so used to just being our thoughts and counting on it to get us out of the misery it inflicted.

 

That's the long road of course. The quick fix didn't work for me. It's just another round. Anyway I've never been happy when involved in thought. There was always one more problem to fix or thing to control...

[grandmaD]

 

THINGS THAT GOT WORSE IN 6^TH YEAR OF TAPER

Palpitations (continue to get worse and worse in frequency esp. and intensity each year)

Insomnia (continues to get worse in frequency and length of hours awake each year)

Rapid pulse (resting in the morning – in the 100s mostly) (gets worse every year)

Tired and slow (worst for all the years, year 1 being the worst before this)

Fatigue episodes more often and more intense with everything a huge effort

Muscle tension and aches

Leg pain intensity with burning, usually extreme at bedtime, preventing sleep

Shooting pains in various places, often legs and feet and also ribcage, hip, back

 Burning nerves and “prickles” sensation on my back for several months again

New: Strong/hard vibrations centralised in my pelvic region not had before (normally they go through my whole body)

Feeling low, hopeless, with depressive thoughts.

Back ache and hip ache and joint pain very bad

This past summer saw me experience weird experiences with feeling strange, faint and feeling like I might collapse.  I put this down to the heat.

[grandmaD]

http://www.emedexpert.com/compare/ssris.shtml#9

 

I have put this here for my information.  It gives a comparison chart of all the SSRI's including their half life.

[LexAnger]

Just stopping by GrandMaD hoping you are feeling a bit better with less pain today. 

Reading the list of symptoms that worsened in the past 6 years broke my heart and brought tears to my eyes. This is so unfair you are put into so much pain and suffering for so long. I always think of your strength when I feel unable to continue. Love you GrandMaD for the inspiration!  God have mercy to all of us, it's too much for too long, please stop the pain and heal us like a miracle!

 

 

[grandmaD]

Thanks Lex, you are such a sweetie, and yes, none of us deserve this hell.  I feel like so many of my years are wasted, it is not getting any better, in fact as you noted many things keep getting worse every year.  I am quite beside myself, especially since those spasms came last March and only just now getting over that, but only to have other symptoms that had improved get worse again, like way back when I started to taper in 2011 (migraines, headaches) and fatigue which I had now and then but now getting for 3-5 days a week along with depression.  I sincerely hope you can make it through, you are so close, but it is such agony.  Much love

[grandmaD]

History

As I look back through my notes, I was reporting each week to be good or ok until July - August 2016 (58mg-57mg drop) when I began having some pretty bad weeks.  When I got to April-Jun 2017 (54-53mg drop) they increased to very bad with 8 weeks of being in the pits and in the black.  People say it gets harder the lower you go, so I decided to hold from June (53mg) and had another 5 weeks of hell before I had 2 okay weeks followed by a good week, bringing me to Aug 2017, so obviously the hold is finally seeing some improvement.

 

Recent past

In March this year (6 months ago) I suffered excruciating muscle spasms every day and then every second day for 2 months.  They began to ease up to every few days, weekly, 10 days and fortnightly over the next 2 months.  For the last month they are infrequent and mild, but yesterday and today, still fighting off what feels like one trying to happen again.  This seemed very bizarre, having only experienced this sort of thing when I was tapering up and down, all the wrong ways, too fast, etc and even then, it was perhaps weeks the longest, not for months.

 

I thought my meds were getting damp, so I changed the box; then I thought it was because they were old so I began using new ones but there was no sudden or significant improvement.  The doctor said it was osteoarthritis, so I had no idea really if it was that or w/d.  So the next best thing I could do was to stop tapering, so have been holding since June 2017.    

 

Current

To complicate things further, I only just noticed that my box of Aropax (Paxil) is manufactured by "Aspen" Australia.  Previously it was from GSK.  I cannot tell you at what point it changed, probably in the last year.

 

I began to wonder if this was the cause of my problems, because apart from the spasms, I had not had a migraine for 6 months and now have had several, even while holding.  The headaches had gone to 2 mild ones a week and they have got worse in intensity and frequency, with 5 last week.

 

The other thing I noticed was I seemed to be getting bouts of depression and fatigue together for days at a time followed by high anxiety, palpitations, rapid pulse and worsening insomnia.  It disturbs me that my pulse is in the 100’s and during the bouts of depression is in the 90’s.  Today it was 118 and I had very low blood pressure and was dizzy and faint in the morning.

Would this new box of Aropax/Paxil be EXACTLY THE SAME ingredients/tablet???  Because Aropax from GSK says it is "paroxetine hydrochloride" whereas the one from Aspen says it is "paroxetine hydrochloride hemihydrate."  I did a posts on SA and one of the Mods said it is a generic form.  This makes me furious because I have seen so many people try and take a generic form and find it makes them worse.

I can’t recall when I began getting the different boxes of the drug, but I now wonder if that explains why I have been so bad and even having symptoms get so much worse.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[grandmaD]

I have posted on the Prozac bridge thread:

 

 

[mammaP]

Hi Grandma D. I just looked at your thread and see that you are feeling better. I am really glad that you are improving, I would have a nice long hold to give yourself a break from tapering and let your brain catch up. These tapers seem to go on forever, I have been tapering for over 5 years and it will be at least another 10 at the rate I am going! I don't mind as long as I can stay stable but I've been having trouble too so am also having a long hold, I'd rather get there reasonably ok than push through and have withdrawal along the way. I have been so tempted to speed up but it just is not worth it! We are both members of the turtle club 

 

I react if I get a different brand, lots of us do. I think of it like a recipe, I can follow my mum's recipe but it will never turn out the same. They will insist there is no difference but we know there is!  I keep an eye on the packs and always order weeks before they run out, then if it a different manufacturer I cross taper. I make a liquid and use 10 capsules, so I use 9+1 then 7+3 5+5 then reverse it until I am back at 10 of the new one. I don't feel the difference this way.  I'm not sure how you are tapering but maybe something similar will work if yours changes again. They shouldn't do that to us, at least mine are in different packs so it is easy to spot but when the packs are the same it's hard to see the small print! 

 

I hope you continue to get better, you deserve a nice big open window! 

Edited August 23, 2017 by mammaP

[grandmaD]

Thanks Mamma for your comments.  While it is good that the spasms are improving and letting up, it is disappointing that I am now experiencing an increase in other symptoms in frequency and intensity. 

 

My yearly results had got worse overall for all symptoms until 2015 when about half of them saw some improvement so my expectation was that 2016 would continue to see improvement so I guess I am very disheartened to see 8 symptoms that had improved in 2015 got worse again in 2016.  Combined with the fact that another 5 symptoms have continued to get worse and worse every year, I really feel like I have given it my best and I am exhausted and very often feel like if I keep going it will kill me.

 

I have not had a life during this time, but have managed to cope somewhat by withdrawing from many of my friends, only relating to two once a week.  I never go out and when I attend family functions it is like an "obligation" that I cannot wait to get away from and that is terrible to have to say that.  I still cannot drive since 2011 and have no desire to do any of the things I used to do, that is why I think I now have depression as everything is a huge effort.

 

I am still struggling with a suicidal son who is showing no sign of improvement and has given all his friends and family the flick, so I don't know what to do about that as this is also another factor that could be dragging me down.  I am just stressed all the time.

 

You say you would rather" get there reasonably" in time, but I cannot recall a time I was ever "reasonable.  I do know that prior to gall surgery in 2014 I was doing okay and at times fairly good.  In fact, good enough to make a start on doing some patchwork.  I cut up several squares ready to work on when I came home from hospital.  They are still sitting in the corner of the family room, and in fact I never even noticed it there until recently!  It took me 2 years to get over that.  That too, could explain the nose dive in 2016.  Then in Oct 2016 I just went down, down, down and stayed at that bottom level and only just seeing signs of pulling out the last 2 weeks.  I cannot relate to what is called waves and windows, as I have 16 different symptoms pretty much all the time, and while a few might improve, a few more get worse, so i never get to a place that is what I could say is a "window" or good.

 

That is a good idea you came up with for the cross tapering, but I have been on this generic brand for at least 6 months that I know of, and no idea if it was even before that.  I intend to ring the chemist and find out when he started selling this one in place of the other one.

 

 I really don't think I can bear the thought of another 7 years of living like this, besides by then I will be 70!  I am seriously thinking I will be better of switching, now that I have been switched anyway to this generic brand and hope for a good outcome.  I might have to settle for what I believe is second best as I don't like the idea, but I need to have some quality of life (and hope that can happen) for the years I have left.

 

 

[grandmaD]

Can I have some input regarding a switch to Citopolam?  I have read this thread about 4 or 5 times and again yesterday, but my brain is shocking, I wouldn't be surprised if I have some form of dementia now, as I cannot retain anything, even something I was told to do earlier - like put the plastic thing on the dog's foot before he goes outside!  I still forgot and let him out. 

 

Anyway, what is the best way to go?  Stop the Paxil and start the new one?

Stay on both for 4 days or was it 2 weeks?

Stay on both, which I think I recall Alto said is not good because the brain gets used to both. 

I think Alto said a quick switch is best, is that right?

 

As for dose of Citapolam?  I gather it is same as paxil 20mg; cita 20mg - but I wouldn't want to go right up on a big dose.

Would a switch work if I simply replace the 3.3 I am on now with 3.3 of the new one?

 

I don't think Australia has liquid form, so I might have to make my own and do it that way rather than change to that down the track.

 

Please help!

[grandmaD]

Can someone provide me with a link I am sure I saw once somewhere - about info to print off to take to a doctor to explain withdrawal.

[LexAnger]

Can't find the one you are looking for to print, but some good tips talking to doctors etc.

 

[ladybug]

Gran, you have been through soo much and no one can say you haven't given it your all when it comes to trying to get off this poison Paxil. At this point, if I were in your shoes, I would be considering a switch too. Reading Songbird's experience gave me hope that it can be done without too many issues and actually it reminded me that from what I have seen over the many years on these boards is that people who switch over at low doses (after sensible tapers) seem to have a better time of it. I've also noticed that Celexa seems to be one that people tolerate ok. I remember a member from PP years ago who had an awful, awful time trying to do a slow taper and so finally made the decision to switch to Celexa and it worked well and they were 100% stable again after a few months. They decided to stay on it indefinitely though rather than go through the hell of WD again, their experience was that bad.

 

I've followed your story since the beginning, Gran, and I want you to know that whatever you decide I will support you 100%. If anybody deserves a break from the WD crap it is you! Love you <3

[LexAnger]

So well said by ladybug, that if anyone deserves a break from the agony of withdrawal, it's you GrandmaD!

i will pray everyday for you to have a smooth and successful switch and fast stablization, if you decide to do so.

 

hugs!

lex

[grandmaD]

Lex - thanks so much for finding this for me, I feel bad you had to do that considering that you are in such a bad place also, so I am especially grateful.  In fact, it is AN EXCELLENT THREAD!  I wish I had read it before I went to the doc. yesterday and I probably wouldn't have bothered or else I might have been more prepared.  Just the same, I doubt it, he was very good with his "reasoning" and "arguments" and at ignoring what I had to say.

[grandmaD]

Love you too, babygirl!  I guess the babygirl is growing up, having known you all these years since PP!  I am so encouraged by your love and support, all of you guys, we couldn't do it without each other!

[grandmaD]

Doctor visit:  Well I thought I was just going to this next new doctor, since I couldn’t get into my usual doctor and get a script for Citappolam, simple as that!  Wrong!  When I told him I wanted to switch to Citapolam because it is calming, he said it wasn’t, and was for depression. 

 

From what I read 20mg paxil equals 20mg Cita but he said that wasn’t true either! 

He said it was absurb to switch from 3.3 Paxil to the same amount of Cita because it isn't a "therapeutic dose."

I asked about going on half the normal dose and he said the Cymbalta was half the normal dose.  I wouldn't have a clue, but 30mg of that is a lot higher than 3.3mg of what I'm on, that's all I know, so I guess I'm just an idiot.

He asked me what my symptoms were and he honed on the anxiety and ignored the other fourteen symptoms I have, including depression.

 

He was willing to switch me to something else, especially Cymbalta when he saw my usual doc had prescribed that.  When I asked what drugs were calming he said Effexor or Zoloft, but no less than a full “therapeutic” dose. ..  When I got home I read that Effexor and Zoloft are stimulating??? !!  Confusing to say the least.

I told him Cymbalta came in a capsule, so how would I ever be able to get off it, and he said “why would you want to get off it, you have anxiety, so stay on it”  I could not get through to him the anxiety was w/d related and he refused to believe it was.  I then thought I would ask about Prozac, because I am pretty sure that 20mg of that is equal to 20mg Paxil, but again, he said no, it isn’t.

 

He asked when I first got the anxiety and had trouble believing I got it when I began to withdrawal from Paxil.  He also believed that after 6 years the Paxil is not doing anything and that I am just muddling around and the symptoms certainly would not be an issue after 6 years and that I should just stop the Paxil, wait for 5 days for “wash out” and start up a new drug at full dose.  The only thing is, I am not prepared to go on a full dose of any a/d, as that would set me back to 20 years ago! 

 

Then he wanted to know if anyone else in the family, such as parents has these symptoms, been on these meds, etc.  No-one has, my family all relied on alcohol, and in fact my mother told me once to get off drugs and have a drink instead, it would be better for me!  Little did she know how true that might be!  Anyway, my family have nothing to do with it because I told him I was put on it for PAIN.  His comment "no-one is put on it for pain."  Can you believe it?  Not only that, he kept me waiting for 20 mins and then came out and must have gone and had a cup of coffee for another 10 or 15mins and charged me $100 for the privilege.

 

Anyway, have to wait for 3 weeks to get in to see my usual doc. and see how I go with him, but I am guessing it will be just as useless, so I am stuck.  

Edited August 26, 2017 by grandmaD
to put in paragraphs

[ladybug]

Gran, I am so sorry you had to go through that! This is why I stopped consulting docs on my taper years ago. I once had a doc that initially supported my taper then I went through my worst rough patch and she told me it was ridiculous that I was tapering from 10mg and that I could stop that amount cold turkey and be fine. She literally said it was "all in my head" and then refused to prescribe me any more tablets!! So now I just tell them want they want to hear to get my tablets and manage my taper on my own.

 

As far as I know 20mg Citalopram DOES equal 20mg of Paxil. So what I would do is tell them you want to switch to Celexa and don't mention the tapering. Look at what the process is here for Prozac bridging and follow that, except with Celexa. If you can figure out how much 3.3mg of Paxil is, you can do the same with Celexa. I believe Songbirds doseweights spreadsheet is on here somewhere if you don't already have a copy on your computer.

 

Of course, see what your usual doctor says first. I hope he can be on board with you. ((Hugs))

[LexAnger]

Just chime in too. Ladybugs idea is a great one and what I did too to get a desired script. Most doctors are ok to switch if you tell them the current one stopped working and you will continue TREAT your original problems taking these drugs. Once you have the script, it's in your hands what to do about the tapering. As a matter of fact, I saved on # of doctor visits and scripts needed as the full dose script lasted longer as I was taking less. 

 

To help with the frustration hearing the deny from  dog- headed doctors ( or anyone else alike), I stopped having any expectation from them for understanding and support. Stopping telling ppl about any details actually helped a lot with the frustration. 

 

I'm not sure if you can use doctors in another country, there is a doctor in U.S.  I used who does online consultation and police script of what ever I ask for. His charge for each session is quite expensive, but I believe he doesn't charge for refill scrip, so only one session is needed to get started. He doesn't understand withdrawal much either but he doesn't deny it either. Let eg me know if you can and want to try him. I can get you connected to him, you can call or use Skype for the session.

 

 

 

 

[grandmaD]

Ladybug, no-one should have to go through that!  I am beginning to see something going on here as  result of some things Jan Carol has said.  It is to do with the way some relationships work and is very eye opening.  She refers to a thing called 'gaslighting" which I had never heard of but when I read about it, I could relate it to my relationship with my mother and then my first abusive (ex) husband.  I even bought the old black and white move by the same name.  There is another one called "Thirteen" apparently, but I didn't want to pay for it, but would you believe I saw it in a 2nd hand shop for $4!  I haven't watched it yet.  Anyway, I am not sure it is the same thing, but she also alluded to something similar on that thread about "how to talk to your doctor about withdrawal" where the doctor sets himself up as high and mighty, the great one, full of knowledge and power (drugs he can give you) and you are an idiot!  She mentioned a book about the Wizard of Oz and other Narcassists, so I might try get a hold of that too.  I don't even  know what a narcassist is, so will have to look that up too!  I am amazed I can actually be learning some new things with my w/d brain, so I feel quite good about that!

 

Anyway, that was a bit off track,but I wanted to say I value your comments and input greatly, so THANK YOU!  I think I saw on that thread about doctors cancelling people's prescriptions like what happened to you!  I am absolutely stunned and horrified!  What if you are in the midst of w/d as you were?  Now we know, they simply do not acknowledge any such thing!  I honestly thought you could go to a doctor and he would give you want you wanted!  Oh dear, still learning about life!

 

I thought about doing that - telling them what they want to hear and in my case I would have to lie and say I want to go on a full dose.  I thought about that and feel so bad about having to lie, it isn't right I should have to do that!  I also thought about the fact if I got the full dose, it would last longer, because I have resented all these years paying for a drug I hate and should never have been put on.

 

Whether my usual doctor will refuse to switch me for the same reason as that one - saying it isn't calming ... is another matter I will find out when I go.  I will try.  I have read the Prozac Bridge thread about 4 or 5 times now, it is very good.  I did post there, but haven't had a reply, but I often do forget to plug into the "follow" button, so will check that. 

 

I doubt that 3.3 of Celexa would be of much help, that is what I don't know and need to know what would be the lowest effective dose I need.

 

When I started to research Paxil again and Citapolam (Celexa) I think it was Wikkepaedia give you a list of the receptors each one affects.  Paxil affects THIRTEEN receptors while Cita/Celxa affects only SIX!  Big difference.  I was thinking if the same ones are affected, the switch would be okay, but then I wonder how those other 7 in Paxil, if not in Cita, then that is where the w/d might kick in.  I really don't know!  Does anyone?

 

Thanks again for your support, I wish I could drop in and give you a hug and have a cuppa with you! 

[grandmaD]

Lex, bless you also, for your strength and support and committment, especially during this very difficult time.  You are so close to the end, you must feel some excitement mixed in with the horror of it all!

 

I think I mentioned above about getting the full dose, which is a good idea and tapering.

 

I think I am at that place now (I was before actually, when I was so angry with doctor for putting me on this crap) but somewhere along the line I must got over that and thought they could still help!  Especially after reading some of the stuff I mentioned above, I will not have any expectations any more.

 

I agree with you about stopping telling people.  I had to stop telling one friend recently as she said I was blaming everything on w/d.  After a while you get so confused and I believed her.  Same with doctor, he had me to the point I thought I should just stop the 3.3mg CT.  Another lovely friend, I still confide in and will keep her because she is very supportive and helpful said I should wait a week for things to settle and then make up my mind, so I have decided to see this hold out and take it from there. 

 

I will see what my usual doc says and if he is willing to give it to me before doing on-line stuff. 

 

Thanks again, Lex I am encouraged by your strength and determination.  In fact, I think it is interesting that you found you had adverse reaction to the drug and is good for all of us to consider that also.  When I do a hold and 8 symptoms improve, it must be that they are w/d symptoms, but the other 8 that get worse - WHY?  I just wonder if that is the drug???  For example, I DO KNOW that one of the side effects for many years was headaches and migraines (average of 5 a week) and that and other head issues are some the ones that get worse. 

[grandmaD]

I am thinking of switching to Celexa (called Citapolam here) and if I did, keen to do the liquid solution.

Is distilled water the water you boil first and then leave to cool?

Can those of you on Celexa tell me if your w/d has been manageable or hell (like Paxil)??

[ChessieCat]

Here are SA's discussions:

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

[ChanceLucky]

10 hours ago, grandmaD said:

I am thinking of switching to Celexa (called Citapolam here) and if I did, keen to do the liquid solution.

Is distilled water the water you boil first and then leave to cool?

Can those of you on Celexa tell me if your w/d has been manageable or hell (like Paxil)??

Gradually tapering to the point where I got down to about 95% off from my original dose was not that hard. I did that over about 8 months and did not notice any symptoms. Getting off the remainder has been another story. I've failed that twice in 2 years and reinstated a low dose both times. In both instances, the withdrawal side effects did not hit me until a few weeks after I had finished the last dose. I'm taking the pill equivalent (in liquid form) of 1 mg a day now, whereas I took 40 mg a day for many years. If/when I do taper that final 1 mg, it's going to have to be quite slow. I would say that once you're almost completely off it, don't assume you can just stop even if things are going smoothly. In my case, I think getting off that final 2 to 5% will need to be almost as slow as getting off the first 95%.

[grandmaD]

Chance Lucky, thank you for your reply.  it sounds pretty similar to Paxil, trying to get off the last bit/lower dose,  but I am impressed it only took 8 months to get down to that point!

[scallywag]

On 8/23/2017 at 7:44 PM, grandmaD said:

Can I have some input regarding a switch to Citopolam?  I have read this thread about 4 or 5 times and again yesterday, but my brain is shocking, I wouldn't be surprised if I have some form of dementia now, as I cannot retain anything, even something I was told to do earlier - like put the plastic thing on the dog's foot before he goes outside!  I still forgot and let him out. 

 

Anyway, what is the best way to go?  Stop the Paxil and start the new one?

Stay on both for 4 days or was it 2 weeks?

Stay on both, which I think I recall Alto said is not good because the brain gets used to both. 

I think Alto said a quick switch is best, is that right?

 

As for dose of Citapolam?  I gather it is same as paxil 20mg; cita 20mg - but I wouldn't want to go right up on a big dose.

Would a switch work if I simply replace the 3.3 I am on now with 3.3 of the new one?

 

I don't think Australia has liquid form, so I might have to make my own and do it that way rather than change to that down the track.

 

Please help!

GrandmaD, I've moved your post with questions about your medications to your intro thread. That's the best place to get answers.

 

I wish I had something to suggest about switching from paxil/aropax to citalopram but I've got nothing.

[grandmaD]

Thanks for the links and moving my questions Scallywag.

Some questions I have:

In all these years of experience, can anyone recall people having success with a switch to Celexa at a low dose?

How much dose do I need to switch to?  Would 5mg be sufficient?

[grandmaD]

 

LIST OF SYMPTOMS THAT HAVE RAMPED UP IN SEVERITY AND FREQUENCY SINCE MARCH 2017 WITH SOME NEW ONES AND THE RETURN OF SOME THAT HAD IMPROVED:

 

 

 

1.      Excruciating muscle spasms every 2^nd day, that had me laid up, which took a good 5 months to resolve which started 5 months ago.  I had them bad when I first began to taper, but these were worse and for much, much, much longer.

B    Backache and hip ache that went on for 5 months

 

 

2.      Suddenly in the last 2 months, I began to experience overwhelming fatigue, along with much worse depression for several days each week, instead of now and then.

 

3.      Pressure heads, which had practically disappeared, re-appeared with a vengeance.

 

4.       Huge spurt in migraines every week (2-3) (which disappeared 6 months ago) and  bad headaches each week 2-3  (which had improved to mild) reminding me of when I first began to taper, with 3 migraines a week and 2 bad headaches, exactly the same pattern as when I first began to w/d.

 

5.      Then came the severe bout of prickles, starting about 5 months ago (when spasms began) every day, instead of now and then.

 

6.      Now experiencing very hot flushes, especially in bed, thinking I must have a fever, so hot. Have had these on and off throughout w/d but not so severe.

 

7.      Bouts of hi anxiety; and low BP 84/62;  And 69/57 lying down;  very dizzy;

 

8.      Palpitations, Rapid Pulse and Insomnia continue to get worse and worse every year.

 

9.      Bouts of anxiety followed by bouts of depression when the anxiety and palpitations improve.  Depression only started in the last 3 months.

 

 

 

 

I am convinced that with the sudden inexplicable rise in many symptoms that it is the switch to generic brand; the other reason I think it is the generic brand is because 2015 showed continual (overall) improvement for 8 different symptoms which all did a sudden downturn in 2016 and that didn’t make any sense.

 

 

Of course, I cannot prove it, as I have no idea when exactly the tablets were changed.  All I can say is that it was between July 2016 and July 2017 that symptoms that had improved got worse.  I am inclined to think it was around the end of 2016 or early 2017 because it was about then I noticed a different size box.   I have definitely been on them since April 2017 and because I had done this nose dive into a black hole I decided to hold.   

 

 

People say it gets harder the lower you go, so it could also be from that, so there is no way of knowing, really.

 

 

The GSK Aropax is discontinued here in Australia, so there is no going back to it.  Besides, I know I have been on the generic for 5 months now and could have been on it for at least 9 months.  So I think it is too late to turn back to the original brand.

 

 

It is for that reason I thought that since I have been switched to something different, I might as well switch to something else that is easier to get off.  So that’s where I am at.  Still don’t know which way to turn or what to do.  I am open to all ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

d summary

[grandmaD]

In my consideration as to whether to do a switch or not, I looked up what receptors are affected by Aropax.  I don't know if anyone has ever done this sort of research or whether I am just driving myself insane trying to find answers!

 

What I found was that 13 of them are affected whereas with Citapolam ony 6 are affected.  I wonder if that makes it a better a/d???

 

Having discovered that, I think 6 of the Cita are the same as Aropax/Paxil so I then wondered if there are another 7 different to Cita, then that would cause w/d if I did a switch?   Is there anyone here who is technically minded or researched this sort of thing????

 

Another thing I did was I found the there is the original GSK paxil called "Paroxetine Hydrochloride".  An Australian company called Aspen bought them out in 2004.  Aspen now manufacture their generic brand called "Paroxetine Hydrochloride Hemihydrate" and there is another generic one I found called "Paroxetine Mesylate".

 

As for Chemist saying they are all the same, I DON'T THINK THEY ARE.  I have attached the comparison of those 3 and you can see they all have different formulas and different structures. 

 

The generic one I am now on is "Paroxetine Hydrochloride Hemihydrate"

 

 

Paroxetine.docx

[LexAnger]

2 hours ago, grandmaD said:

What I found was that 13 of them are affected whereas with Citapolam ony 6 are affected.  I wonder if that makes it a better a/d???

Hi GrandmaD, 

 

im so sorry this journey has been so hard for you and for so long! Only thing I can do is to continue praying for you.

 

youa re not insane on this, I did all those research myself at multiple time considering a switch. 

My understanding is, the fewer receptors cito affects means it is more selective and adverse effects are more narrow ranged ( how they claim and market lexapro/ cito with cleaner safety profile than others, but man, the side effects are super intense)  I considered the difference too when thinking about switching to Prozac from lexapro ( similar to cito, more powerful as shown by those index numbers for each receptor ) and worried about the additional mess up due to additional receptors Prozac blocks. On the other hand, the more selective cito could be more potent in affecting serotonin as indicated by its binding potency indicated by the Ki value ( shown in pharmacology section in Wikipedia ).  One time I was considering switch from lexapro to Celexa, I was calculating the equavellent dose based on the Ki value even it is claimed lexapro is twice potent as Celexa.

 

I don't know if I was overdoing it or even if it matters giving how poorly these drugs were discovered and understood. If we can trust the science associated with these drugs and understand how these substances work in a human body, these rational makes  sense, but again from I learned about the whole conspiracy, I don't really know how much i can claim it science base on valid and complete foundation.

 

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, grandmaD said:

Having discovered that, I think 6 of the Cita are the same as Aropax/Paxil so I then wondered if there are another 7 different to Cita, then that would cause w/d if I did a switch?   Is there anyone here who is technically minded or researched this sort of thing????

 

That's the big issue with changing.  You can end up with start up and/or side effects from the new drug and withdrawal from the old.  And of course nobody knows what will happen.  Even if you find someone who has done it and it worked for them doesn't mean that it will work for you.

 

I'm not suggesting that you don't do it, just reminding you know that there are no "rules" with these drugs.

 

Have you considered making a small reduction?

[LexAnger]

Thinking of you grandMa!

its been a while since you were here last time, hope you are hanging in ok.

 

sending you hugs and live,

lex

[LexAnger]

Thinking you GrandmaD!

hope you are coping ok!

 

lex

[grandmaD]

On 9/4/2017 at 3:30 PM, ChessieCat said:

Have you considered making a small reduction?

Already gone down to a 1% taper and doing a 6 month hold.  I cannot go any slower than that!