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grandmaD: turtle here


grandmaD

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Thanks guys for your thoughts and concern, it really does help one to feel loved and accepted, may God bless you for your compassion!

 

I've had 2 nights of being awake for 4 hours and only getting 4-5 hours sleep, making the next day feeling fragile, weak, heavy and lethargic again.  This morning woke with a bad headache had all day.  Bit better now, no pain, just heavy/dull.  Starting to fear I won't stabilise, but must not think like that, there is still time.

 

Chicken, it sure is a "hellava struggle."  I wasn't going to check emails but I have had diarrhea and bad bellyache today (diarrhea almost unheard of for me) so I just had a light soup for early tea and just killing time till it gets dark and I can go to bed!

 

LA, yes I am aware of the research causing further anxiety, so I am limiting it and not done any today due to headache, etc.  thanks for your advice, just the same, it is good to hear these things.  Thanks too about Downtown girl, I will sure contact her.

 

Africa, it is nice to know others care, just so weird they have to be on the other side of the world!

 

Hubby wants to got the big smoke tomorrow and wants me to go, just to get out of the house.  It's an hour there and back, so all I have to do is sit in the car, not hard!  I can lie down while he shops around as we have a mattress in the back.  We will visit his son as they have just had a new baby, so hopefully I can handle a short visit.  It will be a long day, so I won't be on here tomorrow.

 

I hope you guys are coping?

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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GrandmaD, I am reading your thread - 

 

I am a slow slow reader, and I miss a lot and have to go back and read again.  I'm only on page 2 of your thread but have so many notes I thought I would post them, even if they may be resolved or addressed by someone else.  A fresh pair of eyes and all that.

 

You speak of your symptoms:

I don't understand anxiety very well and find it very unpleasant.   Are these symptoms of anxiety?

1.  The vibrations in my body get very strong, hard and increase in intensity

2.  I feel like I am dizzy and I get shakey

3.  I get very impatient and frustrated

4.  I feel totally stressed out

 

Songbird wisely writes:

It is a concern that your anxiety has become worse each year you have been tapering.  This suggests you have not been stabilising between drops.  Have you tried any long holds to see if your system might settle down with more time?

 

 

It's not the best news, but I believe it is true.

 

Additionally, every time you try a new sleep aid or supplement, you are giving your nervous system a little bounce.  Rocking the boat, increasing the waves.

 

Claire Weekes uses the term "Nervous" or "Sensitive," she does not use the word "anxiety."  Anxiety to me is a diagnosis word that causes you to push the feelings away.

 

Claire Weekes suggests you listen to your body, and differentiate your emotions from your body's reactions.  When you realize that it is just your body "firing," then you have more control, more choice about how to respond.

Already, you have found that certain things set you off - I, too, get overworked when I spend too much time on the phone or with friends, and have to draw a line as to when to take a phone call or not.  The ones who love me, understand, and know that I will see & talk to them, when I can, but that I have to take care of myself first.

 

It's okay in withdrawal to "reel it in."  It's not selfish, and may be essential, even if it seems selfish.  If what you need is dark rooms and quiet, then that is what you need.  If you can go out - but only with dark sunglasses on - then that is what you need.  If TV is too active, too jolting for your nerves, then choose the soothing music or silence.  Let your pleasure be your guide for what you need at this time.

 

Chances are, if it is not pleasurable, or you overdo, then it is your body, telling you what it needs in order to heal.

 

So you are learning wisdom.  It's just withdrawal, it's only symptoms.  They will pass.  Hold on.

Claire Weekes - Self Help for your Nerves

 

You have asked about a few substances:

2 migraine tablets

 

Mersyndol?  This is paracetemol, codeine + doxylamine succinate.   So like an antihistamine, it stopped working after a few tries.

 

I have thought about something like valium, just to take now and then, but frightened I might enjoy the benefits too much and ....

 

 

I know your doctor refused, but then he just gave you another benzo.  

 

Those benzos sure are seductive, aren't they?  

http://www.madinamerica.com/2016/07/benzos-a-dance-with-the-devil/

 

We have many people suffering benzo withdrawal. 

 

We have many people suffering insomnia, too.

 

I believe the ones with insomnia - as awful as that is - are better off.  It is better to lay there and rest (like Songbird said), not sleeping (learn to let go of the "am I sleeping yet?" thoughts).  Insomnia can be horribly difficult, but we have several here who have lived through it:

Important Topics about Symptoms Including Sleep Problems

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/555-tips-to-help-sleep-so-many-of-us-have-withdrawal-insomnia/

 

Serapax but the bottle says it is called Alepam 15 and is called Oxazepam also so do you know if that is same as Serapax

 

It's an "-azepam."  It's a benzo.  It is addictive.    15 hour half life, so that you still feel a bit dreamy the next day - but you would still have some breakthrough symptoms before taking the next one.  And the more you take (doc was right, 3 days in a row is dancing with the devil, too), the more likely you get hooked.  Hooked, you would have to stabilise on a daily dose, and taper.   :huh:

 

I was going to just use it once a week like I had been doing with the other meds.  Do you think that is safe enough, or not?

 

Once a week is probably the maximum you can use without being addicted.  Pay attention to your symptoms, and if you start to feel uneasy the next day, then you are getting a rebound effect from it - an early sign of tolerance and addiction.

 

Songbird asks you about melatonin - you said your Doctor said "leave it alone," but he was willing to prescribe Serapax?  This makes me question your doctor!

 

I think he just didn't want to hassle with the Aussie TGA hoops of "practitioner only" melatonin.  But he is right, there are side effects, for some.  I'm one.  But others do get relief.  It is a trigger, to tell your brain to shut down, that it is dark, time to rest.  Recommended dose is .25 up to 1 mg.  It is only available in Australia as "practitioner only" or from overseas sources.  Very hard to find the small doses, you would have to cut them down, probably with liquid.  (sounds like a hassle, eh?  Here's what others have said):

Melatonin for Sleep

 

There is a homeopathic version available at most chemists - but I don't know anyone that it has worked for.  Homeopathic has the "vibration" of the substance but not a single molecule of it.  If you believe in vibrations, perhaps it is for you.  Me?  I'll stick to my herbs, aminos and EFA's.

 

Good one!  great idea!  I tried listening to music one night but lay there wondering what the next song would be, and the next one and the next one...for ages!

 

It helps to have very boring, but sensual music for sleep.  Music that is pleasurable, but that isn't too interesting.  Find a you-tube video (there are a lot of good ones on Shep's thread) and rip it to MP3, and play it for hours.  There are a lot of 3 hour videos of cat purring, classical music, sea and surf, simple music to help you sleep (note:  hard to sleep to "binaural beats" unless you have trained yourself to do so). 

 

To "rip" an audio track off of Youtube, I use "Free YouTube to MP3 converter" but I have used other ones, too.

 

More in a mo - 

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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I wanted to put this one separately - because it's so important. 

 

I am so sorry to hear about your son.  How painful it must be for you, knowing what you do about the drugs, to see him do this.  I have loved ones all around me on the dangerous benzos, friends who go on and off the antidepressants like candy (please, G-d, don't let them get stung!), others who are on the horrible cocktails.  It's so hard to watch, and hold my tongue.

 

I think of it like a bad or abusive relationship.  Peter Breggin calls it "Medication spellbinding" (Google that phrase with Breggin's name to find out more).

 

When your loved ones are in that abusive relationship, they are in it.  Nothing you say can help them leave it.  All you can do is your best to be clear with them, gentle with them, and develop a level of trust (i.e., not criticise the relationship)  so that when they do hit bottom and come to you for help - the might be able to hear what you have to say.  It takes a lot of discipline and willpower to not say, "I told you so!"  And - it hurts to say that anyway.  Hurts me to say it, I wish it hadn't happened that way, even if I saw it coming years before.

 

The advantage to knowing about this - is you realize, that's not really your son.  It's the drugs.  You know, because you know what they did to you - you were not yourself on them.  Nor is your son, "himself."  His brain has been fiddled, and while it is mournful that he is suffering - the consequences of the drug are not the son you once knew.  Hopefully, some day, you will know him again.

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol, thank you for your "fresh input" as you call it, yes I think it is a great idea.  The first thing to hit me was that I should have gone back over my journal!  I feel silly for not having done this for a start.

 

The next thing that has hit me HARD is that quote from Songbird:

It is a concern that your anxiety has become worse each year you have been tapering.  This suggests you have not been stabilising between drops.  Have you tried any long holds to see if your system might settle down with more time?

I honestly cannot recall seeing this and feel embarrassed to think that I overlooked this important piece of wisdom and ashamed even, because I admire and respect Songbird and her input.  It was obviously excellent advice and even though I do believe my head is much better than it used to be, there are things like this that show me it is still not right.  I will go back and find it, just the same.  At this point, that would have been the sensible thing to do.  I can point back to 3 years ago where those symptoms didn't improve after the first 6 month hold and then at the second 6 month hold they were even more worse.

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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Claire Weekes uses the term "Nervous" or "Sensitive," she does not use the word "anxiety."  Anxiety to me is a diagnosis word that causes you to push the feelings away.

 

Claire Weekes suggests you listen to your body, and differentiate your emotions from your body's reactions.  When you realize that it is just your body "firing," then you have more control, more choice about how to respond.

 

I must agree here, as I really do have trouble with this word anxiety!  I never had it before and still struggle to understand it, and that is why I tend to use the actual physical symptoms I have instead.  I do use the word "stressed out" to describe what I feel and think that is more accurate.  I am just beginning to recognise now that "stressed out" reaction in my body and be more kinder to myself.  Hopefully I will learn to do this more and better in the future!

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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I have been using music for years now at bedtime.  I think I will stay away from Melatonin because of the side effects being the same as my symptoms.  As for the chemist brand one, even the Chemist himself said the doctor type one was better.  Yes, the sleeping pills are a great temptation, because even the next day I feel calm and that is such a wonderful feeling, I guess when the high anxiety returns, you just want that calm feeling again.

 

I have been better the last week or so with the insomnia, because it occurred to me that with my weight loss and my deteriorated state, that my body may need some sustenance during the night, and that it is too long from tea time to breakfast.  With that in mind, if I am awake still after 1 hour, I get up and have my porridge and a hot milk and stay up for an hour.  It often takes another hour to get back to sleep, but at least I do go back to sleep, whereas before if I woke up then (around 2-4am) I couldn't get back to sleep.  So now I feel like I am "being kind" to my body when I have to get up instead of being angry and annoyed.

 

I told hubby about the "resting" bit even if not sleeping and he reminds about that now, which is good - because I forget about that too!  GRRRRRRR!

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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Jancaroll, Thanks for the post about my son, that was lovely to hear and so well put.  I have not been in much contact with him, trying to cope with myself lately!  I do try and not say anything much, just encourage him and try and be gentle.  I must remember that the drugs he is on affect him, thanks for that.

 

I saw the Dr. this am and he said the back spasm would have been a pulled ligament and is due to anxiety.  I get mad at times that they put everything down to anxiety, but I can see it now - IT IS ALL DUE TO ANXIETY!  I worked out myself that because of my tight/cramping muscles, (due to anxiety) that can cause them to be pulled easily. 

 

I told him I have had enough and will stop tapering.  I go back on Fri. to discuss the ins and outs of switching and what to, etc.

 

I found out by accident last week when I had a shower in the middle of the day to wash my hair that I felt warm and good inside for hours afterwards, so I did it again this week.  It just shows what the extra warmth can do so I am making sure I keep warm, but nothing gets through to the bones and muscles like that hot shower did, so I am thinking of having a shower twice a day now!

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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  • Moderator Emeritus

grandmaD, thanks for your posts in downtongirl's thread. It's always good to hear from someone who's been there before.

 

Maybe the question for your doctor could be, "Anxiety could be causing [x]. Let's look at this from other angles. If it's not anxiety, what else might cause [x]?"

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

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Well, I just couldn't believe it when I read what Downtowngirl posted - all the things I had been thinking!  It was so weird.  Sad as it is that we think these things, I was relieved to see someone else think like me, I am not a freak!

 

What I should ask the dr. is if he thinks the anxiety is w/d related because he probably thinks it's just me.

 

After several nights of being awake 4 long hours and other nights 2 to 3 hrs, I slept pretty well last night.  I was surprised however, to wake up very, very tired, weak, slow and strengthless and spent the morning on the couch.  I think this crash is still catching up to me and looks like going to take some time to pull back out of this hole.

 

I still have pink eyes of a morning and in the evenings, does anyone know why that is?  this is an improvement on all day like before when I used to put it down to the headaches and migraines, but they are much better now.

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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Dizzy spells were mostly gone in the last year (5th year of slow tapering) but I had a severe one today and thought I was going to pass out.  It is amazing that these things till come and go, like the gluggy ears, coughing up phlegm, these are of no importance, and not as bad but still happen regularly.  Another one I haven't had since the first year of tapering was the scalp crawlies a couple of times yesterday.

 

In the past I have not been able to read anything except my own journal and talk to 1 or 2 other people, which is a shame because when we are in that bad place is when we need to know stuff.  I also found that I couldn't take it in anyway.

 

Now that my head is in a much better place, I have been able to do some research and read other people's experience with switching to Prozac but so far, I haven't read anything successful.  It seems people continue to get worse and then blame the Prozac and then try and get off it too quick or they go back to the original drug.  Perhaps, like me, they thought a switch would overcome the current w/d issues but it would appear this is not the case.

 

Pros

The risk of a switch is justified if you find a taper from the original drug is too difficult.  This would be me for sure.  It's a pity I didn't do it when the dr. first suggested it years ago but I didn't know anything then.  I think what put me off was that I was on 5mg and he wanted to put me on 10mg of Prozac and that would have meant those 3 years of tapering/suffering were wasted.

If you are having intolerable withdrawal it might be worth the risk.  Things are intolerable anyway and if it stays that way, so what.

My concern is that the symptoms might get EVEN WORSE

 

Cons

1.  the switch doesn't help with current w/d symptoms

2. is better to taper off the original drug slower if you can

3. it is not guaranteed to work/is risk involved

4. it is stimulating and I have lots of anxiety related issues

 

I don't like the idea of a bridge - taking 2 weeks to take both

1.  Updosing the serotonin level could be risky

2.  If my body cannot cope with a tiny drop every 8 weeks, then quitting paxil after 2 weeks would be detrimental I think

 

I thought the idea of a crossover, of taking half the current drug and half the new one was more feasible, but then again, it means a big sudden drop of the current drug.  I am not convinced the new drug fully "picks up from where the last one left off"

 

I think the best idea would be when I did a 2.5% drop which in weight is .001 or .01 (that I can't determine!) and susbstitute equivalent amount of new drug.

 

I would appreciate any other thoughts to add to my ideas!

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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I forgot to mention about being stable before doing a switch?  I have read people have done it even if unstable, but would it be better to be stable first?

 

My plan is still to see this 8 week taper out (now in week 5)

Do another 6 month hold and see where those symptoms are that have been getting worse and then assess what to do.

Someone mentioned another option to updose to 5mg and stay on it for life.  Again, that was 3 years ago I was there and also means I would be stuck on on Paxil.

 

If I am no better at that point I will consider staying at 3.5mg for life or I might have to do a switch just to get off Paxil.

 

It seems they put people on Prozac because of its longer half life and is therefore easier to get off.

 

I wonder has anyone looked into a switch to a/d's which are more calming?

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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  • Moderator Emeritus

grandmaD:  As best as I can tell from my own experience and from reading other people's experience, psychiatric pharmaceuticals are a game of chance. There's no way of knowing which drug will work, so doctors prescribe based on their experience and the most recent information from the most persuasive pharma rep.  I wish I -- or they -- could provide you with some information or comfort so you could be more confident about what's next. :(
 
I saw your post in the Adrenaline Dumps - Bangs thread:
 

The insomnia with adrenaline surges link (above) doesn't work.

Does anyone know if the Nikki above has a journal, I couldn't find one and where she is at these days, as last post I could find was 2014 ?


Nikki's intro thread is here. She last logged in in September 2014. You can see when someone last logged in by moving the cursor over a member's name next to a post. A popup box appears with some options: join date, last active date, find content, send message.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

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Saw Dr. this morning.  He agrees not to taper any more.  Not willing to switch due to my deteriorated state.  He was about to write out a script for something calming for anxiety.  Weighed me and I am still underweight, despite having put on 5kg.  Has been years since I did a halter monitor test so will repeat that (it revealed I had Wenckeback Syndrome level 2) which I think is common in w/d???  When Dr. realised this, he wouldn't write that script out.  I can't remember what he said it was called, I never heard of it but remember he said it was a beta-blocker.  Will run blood tests since that's been a year. 

 

Still in my hole, feeling very weak, slow, heavy and lethargic.  Attempted to walk this morning but couldn't, but mainly because of the aching around my chest and ribcage and going around to my back.  It's just a matter of time I guess.

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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Hi, Gran. Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you and praying that you stabilize soon. I looked up that syndrome and from what I can tell a beta blocker is sometimes used as a treatment so it's strange your doctor didn't prescribe it then, maybe he wants to get some more tests first. I know I've read of some people here that are either on or have been on beta blockers and they would definitely help with your palpitations and anxiety in general maybe. This is a just a particularly bad wave, but I know you will absolutely stabilize with time. ((HUGS))

a.k.a JMarie

Paxil since Mar.1998

2006-2007:40-20mg
2009: 20mg to 14mg 2010: 14mg to 10.5mg 2011: 10.5 to 7.6mg  2012: 7.5 to 6.8mg

2013: 6.7-6.3mg 2014: 6.2mg-5.8mg 2015: 5.7 to 5.15mg 2016: 5.1-4.6mg

1/19/17: 4.5mg 3/17/17: 4.4mg

6/15/17: 4.35mg 8/10/17: 4.3mg

1/29/18: 4.1mg 5/07/18: 4.0mg

7/31/18: 3.9mg

 

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Hi babygirl, its good to hear from you, I am always thinking and praying for you - five years now, can you believe it!!  He wouldn't prescribe the beta blocker which he also said would suppress adrenalin because of the heart block I have.  I am going to have it done again this week.  Level 1 is not worries, level 2 which I have is a worry and Level 3 is bad.  I am certain this is a result of withdrawal.

 

Insomnia again last night due to palpitations.  I did my breathing and relaxation exercises over and over but there are times they just do not work.  Still weak with no energy and hubby had to do vacuuming again - it has been quite a while since he has had to help with that.  I had a go at mopping, but it was too hard.  back to just sitting doing nothing which I have had to learn (most resistantly) to do.  No more severe low back spasms or stiff necks, so that's good and I started back walking round the house 5 mins and now up to 15mins but as for all other symptoms, still no improvement.  Normally in week 5 I might see some improvement and definitely by week 6 but I think I went too far this time and should have done a hold last taper, so is taking much longer to crawl back up.

 

How are things with you?

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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Wow you really have been on a ruff road. You are so strong . I only lately started writing on SA but I been following some of the people and you are one because of your strength . I have also lost so much weight that people keep asking what is wrong . As for the hair falling out I had it as well but being a hairdresser I put lavender oil in my shampoo which helped quite a bit. GOD BlESS

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God bless you doggiemama!  I am not strong at all, far from it, but  I WAS DETERMINED TO GET OFF THIS ROTTEN POISON EVEN IF IT KILLED ME!  I have come to regret saying that and I take it back because I think if I keep going, it will kill me.  Call it determination or even stubbornness, but that can be a bad thing too, if you don't listen to your body, which is what I am seeing a lot of posts about now.  Unfortunately for the first 4 years I couldn't read/research or focus to learn anything.  What I did read I quickly forgot.  Anyway, I do believe I am on the right path now, having to hold at this dose for as long as it takes.

 

What is your story?  Don't tell they even sell these drugs in South Africa!  I am amazed at all the people around the world ...

 

Your hair will grow back.  I shaved all mine off and it has grown back quite thick!

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

Link to comment

Yesterday I had a bad headache and today was another day of feeling very weak and heavy with the gutsache/chest thing.  I took 2 painkillers which helped my head but also helped the guts/chest and ribcage aches and pains and that WAS SO NICE.  It is so easy to want to feel no pain and resort to painkillers, but I am still only taking them once a week.  I guess in that area, I am strong.   I am getting so discouraged.  I tell myself not to be, because when I checked the last 2 tapers, I was worse at the end of them both but I continued to taper.  This tells me that I won't see that "usual" improvement in weeks 6 and 7 but will take longer for my body to catch back up.  I have to be patient and keep going, but it's not easy.

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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I don't know where my post went, so here goes again.  I don't see myself as strong at all, but I was DETERMINED to get off this poison even if it killed me.  I regret saying that now, it is stupid to say that and I take it back because I think had I kept going it would kill me.  You could say I have been stubborn in my efforts to keep going, which meant I didn't always listen to my body like they say to do.  I am sure my brain was screwed up the first 4 years and with pressure heads every day  I couldn't read/process stuff and if I did read a paragraph or two, I quickly forgot it.  I had trouble focusing, etc.

 

What is your story?  I can't believe where they sell these drugs all around the world, it's crazy!

 

Still no sign of improving, and getting very discouraged.  Bad headache yesterday along with the breathlessness, achey chest, ribcage, guts ache and palpitations!  Again today still very heavy and lethargic with all those things.  It was nice though yesterday when I took some painkillers for the headache which helped with the other aches and pains and felt SO NICE.  I guess it is so easy to want to "feel good" and resort to painkillers, but I have already been down that road on daily doses and that is not the answer.

 

I looked back over my notes and found the last several tapers I had not improved before dropping again and I think that's why I am so bad now.  I have to be patient and let my body "catch up", but it's not fun.

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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Lol any human going through this horror is strong or far stronger than they think and reading your story I just know you strong. I thank GOD that I have not suffered head aches as much but tummy back pain and the rest of the emotional stuff I'm still going through but a far lesser dagree than say 6 months ago. I've not wrote on SA only started a few days ago but been reading everyday for the last 2 years and it never ceases to amaze me that almost everyone suffering have Drs that don't have a clue about withdrawal. After going to a pycologist not understanding the anxiety, fear and everything else they said it was purely anxiety and depression when I tried to explain that this was something else and not the real me and my thoughts about WD and what I been reading on SA they just did not or would not understand and was informed there was no such thing after 6 weeks and get back onto meds which I refused. Dr then sent me to a phyc a pushy worm of a women I tried again to explain and was told I was in denial about depression and anxiety LOL when I said not at all I'm very aware of it but its WD she laughed and wrote a sciped when I said I would not take the meds she informed her nurse I was TA DA what for it !!! Non compliant. I left and I will never go back . I find more help and understanding here with us normal people than any Dr with much bigger mental probs than the whole lot of us GOD BLESS

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Well, thanks, I will try and accept your compliment!  I just know I was so mad when I discovered I had wasted years and years of my life on a drug that was a mind altering one at that and I never knew it.  I have no faith in doctors any more and you probably don't either and who can blame us.  In a way that is good, because too many of us have been brought up with the notion they are god.  Keep looking until you find a good one.  I have been through 6 and even when I crashed after 4 months at 10% in hospital, the doctor there basically did the wrong ethical thing and told me to "find another doctor"!  Mind you, he wouldn't acknowledge it was w/d either, but I do think he knew.  They must be scared of people suing them or something.  He pointed me in the direction of a doctor who "might help" and turned out he was willing to let me taper to my own agenda.  Are you still tapering?  What drug are you on?  Paxil?  Yes, you will find a lot of very good information on this site, thank God for it for it has been a lifesaver for many of us.

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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Ok, different day!  The lethargy and feeling like I have one foot in the grave has improved (I just realised I have had pressure heads which I think go hand in hand with that - also the dr/dp).  Today more energy and clearer head, BUT  palpitations were strong and hard and all night long, causing insomnia.  I notice now that when this happens it causes severe muscle cramps in legs and butt.  It is always something, like a game of roulette – roll the dice and see what symptom we will have today!

 

First thing in the morning resting pulse is 105.  I think I noticed this pattern before, from extreme lethargy and feeling like death warmed up, to high anxiety, head and body vibes, worsening palpitations and insomnia and dizzy.   L hip is still playing up.

 

Let's see what the dice brings tomorrow!

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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Oh granma it also makes me mad to think we are not told about WD on this junk but we in it so we go though it. Sorry its not good today. My Dr told me I should stop the meds but never said anything about taper or such so in my WISDOM I stopped over a month . I was on Cilift and Zolnox the last meds. But before I was on generic prozac .Zoloft, Trypiline strange but I never had a problem stopping them but boy o boy for 2 years I've suffered with the last 2 .Its nice to talk to someone that knows what its all about GOD BLESS

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No worries, it's good to talk to other people on here who understand, that's for sure.  You say you went of a/d's okay without a problem?  Were you on each of them for long?  How long ago?  What sort of drug were the last 2 I've not heard of them.  How long since you quit the last 2?

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

Link to comment

Hello GrandmaD....glad the lethargy has improved!  I think it is good you are noticing a pattern to your waves and windows because then you know what to expect.  About how long do your waves last and how long do your windows last?

1995 - 2015 antidepressants and antianxiety medicine
Multiple failed attempts to quit/taper anti d/anti anxiety meds since 2008

June 17, 2016 began prozac bridge to get off of effexor xr, stopped effexor xr on June 24, 2016, could not tolerate prozac due to severe side effects so I had to stop it  Currently...300 mg ER of lithium, 1 mg of estradiol, 60 mg propranolol ER, Fish oil 2 x a day, Magnesium Glycinate,  zinc, vitamin c, vitamin d, NAC

 

 

 

 

 

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Hmmmm, waves and windows????  Not sure how to reply to that as I have never been able to relate to this phenomena!  I can only assume by "windows" that people mean they feel so much better?  And by waves they are "crap"?  I would have to say I have never been in a place that I feel "better" or "good" instead, always crap, because if it isn't one thing, it is another.  The pattern I "think" I see is extreme lethargy, feeling like I could die I am so low and weak - I am not sure if this is depression???  Then, followed by high anxiety, dizzy, palpitions and hi head and body vibrations, which is just as disconcerting and distressing!  As to how long they last, I really don't know as I have only just noticed this trend.  Actually, in the past, I put it down to a kick-back reaction from taking codeine and serapax and doxylamine and still not sure if that is the reason, as I did take 2 codeine again last week.  How do you describe waves/windows?

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

Link to comment

Well...I am certainly not an expert on it and am still figuring it out and don't quite have it figured out but I think you start to track your days even if it means hour by hour on paper and I guess windows are times when you see a distinct improvement in a symptom.  I don't know if some people have complete symptom free windows or not.  I just pray that one day I will have a completely symptom free window that does not end.  As far as waves I consider a wave when I have an increase in symptoms or go from a period of feeling better back to feeling like crap.  Does that make sense?

1995 - 2015 antidepressants and antianxiety medicine
Multiple failed attempts to quit/taper anti d/anti anxiety meds since 2008

June 17, 2016 began prozac bridge to get off of effexor xr, stopped effexor xr on June 24, 2016, could not tolerate prozac due to severe side effects so I had to stop it  Currently...300 mg ER of lithium, 1 mg of estradiol, 60 mg propranolol ER, Fish oil 2 x a day, Magnesium Glycinate,  zinc, vitamin c, vitamin d, NAC

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment

No, I don't think it makes sense.  Sounds like you are saying if just ONE symptom has improved then you call that a window, but what about if you still have the other dozen symptoms.  It's great when I don't get a headache, but then I might have a pressure head and the other dozen symptoms, so I still feel crap!  I might not have a pressure head but still get the head banging sensation and head vibrations (and other dozen or so symptoms) so It is still distressing!

 

Maybe others want to add their experiences of windows and waves?

 

This link is a great explanation of the damage that drugs of addiction do the brain.  It is only Part 1 but you can look up the other parts if you are interested.

 

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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D, I was so glad to get your last message. I've been sick so not keeping up with correspondence, but will soon. I'm thinking of you every day. In fact, many times a day.

 

About waves and windows -- There is not exact definition of this phrase since it was one of many terms that was coined to refer to a phenomenon for which no existing word or phrase is at all adequate. So, like so many w/d terms, the meaning often varies with people's experiences, I find.

 

But in my many years on w/d groups, I find it generally refers to having a significant difference in degree of suffering generally. It usually does not mean relief or worsening of all symptoms. (Again, this varies. I know one member of PP (and this group though only rarely posts now) who had no physical symptoms in w/d, I believe, but very bad depression. So in theory I guess for her a wave or window would be significant changes in the degree of her depression.

 

Like you, I had multiple symptoms that varied every day or even within each day as to which predominated. At any given time some could be almost unbearable and others barely noticeable. Another day (or other time period) some of those symptoms that had been so unbearable I was stifling screams, could become secondary and sometimes even below my threshold of attention, which the ones that had just been barely noticeable would reach "unbearable" levels. (To clarify, the symptoms were not in precise sets - it could be any combination of symptoms at any time. Just never knew which would be severe and which would be pretty tolerable at any given time.)

 

I never considered such frequent changes (lasting a day or a number of days or more) to be waves and windows. It was when I was significantly better generally for a period of time that I considered it a window, and vice versa (generally felt significantly worse, often feeling - deceptively - that I was back to square one) as a wave.

 

But the phenomenon of various symptoms fluctuating enormously in intensity within a day or so or number of days, is common, though I don't think at all universal with everyone. I never knew which symptom would be worse at any given time - very frustrating. I feel for you so much.

 

I just happened to pop in for a moment. I'll reply to your message soon!

I was "TryingToGetWell" (aka TTGW) on paxilprogress. I also was one of the original members here on Surviving Antidepressants

 

I had horrific and protracted withdrawal from paxil, but now am back to enjoying life with enthusiasm to the max, some residual physical symptoms continued but largely improve. The horror, severe derealization, anhedonia, akathisia, and so much more, are long over.

 

My signature is a temporary scribble from year 2013. I'll rewrite it when I can.

 

If you want to read it, click on http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/209-brandy-anyone/?p=110343

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Brandy, bless you so much for your thoughts and I really appreciate your posting this, especially in light of your own struggles and sickness.  I am very, very sorry to hear you are still unwell and look forward to hearing what is happening with you.  I would also love to hear if you have improved in those multiple symptoms of w/d after all these years as I am beginning to think I will never improve and never get off this stuff.  I will be praying for you, for comfort and strength as you have been such a tower of strength to myself and many others.

 

Thanks for your post and explanation.  I can probably relate to your paragraph about the multiple symptoms and that is why it is difficult to relate to waves/windows. I'm sure much easier if all you are coping with is depression like you said, is easy to see when you are out of that!  For me, I just feel like I have been in jail with bouts of torture all these years and once in a blue moon let out into the exercise yard to see the sun! 

 

I think the best I can come up with is to say I've had a "good day" which doesn't mean wonderful, but tolerable.  That is why I am struggling at present.  My average is 2 good days a week and even with that, I can cope a bit better, but this is the 5th week in a row with no good days.  That might be a more accurate guage of where I am at.

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

Link to comment

Just some information for those interested - I found out that Tasmania produces the opiates for GSK!

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-04/sunpharma-to-buy-gsk-opiates/6280656

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

Link to comment

Downtongirl, I finally found the letter from my friend that I referred to in your journal. I notice you are keen to try the lithium, so all I can say is to be careful. 

 

 

“The last few months have been very trying as my mum’s health has deteriorated so

badly and so quickly that her body was starting to shut down.  My mum was so independent, but now her symptoms are unbelievable:

  • Bladder incontinence (total)
  • Shaking and delusionary
  • Signs of diabetes
  • Couldn’t walk shower, etc
  • Didn’t want to cook, clean, get out of bed
  • Had to use a walker or wheelchair
  • No joy …etc, etc

 

Anyway, after seeing many doctors my sister and I decided to put mum in a nursing

home.  Then my mother collapsed in the mall one day and was hospitalized.  In

hospital a doctor read mum’s notes and immediately said it was a lithium (an ingredient in many anti-depressants) overdose!  Mum was in hospital for a week where she had to learn to walk again. The Doctor weaned her off the lithium and she is now almost 100% back to her old self: 

  • She is not incontinent
  • She is not diabetic
  • She is not shaking or delusionary
  • Mum is now taking care of herself…
  • Etc, etc!

 

To think my sister and I were arranging for her to go into a dementia ward!  I’m so

mad at these useless doctors, where is the duty of care?  Where is the responsibility?  Who is going to be accountable?  What about all the other people I see in the nursing home and dementia ward that probably shouldn’t be there?”

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

Link to comment
  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi grandmaD,

 

Wow, that's amazing, both good amazing and bad/sad amazing.  At least in this instance it was a positive outcome thankfully.

 

Leading up to my mother's death (end of 2013) she quickly deteriorated mentally.  I felt it was something to do with the drugs she was on but I didn't know about the drug interactions checker until I joined SA.

 

There is a topic here:  lithium-orotate

 

It might be worthwhile re-posting your post there.  Would you do that please?

* NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA *

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:  (6 year taper)      0mg Pristiq  on 13th November 2021

ADs since ~1992:  25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity)  Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021   LAST DOSE 0.0025mg

Post 0 updates start here    My tapering program     My Intro (goes to tapering graph)

 VIDEO:   Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

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Hey GrandmaD....I have read of lithium toxicity and actually met a lady who had lithium toxicity while in the hospital this year...it was not a fun experience for her....she had been on lithium for 25 years and at very high dosages....if I don't have any bad side effects from it I only plan on staying on it until I get through antidepressant withdrawal....thank you for being concerned for me.

1995 - 2015 antidepressants and antianxiety medicine
Multiple failed attempts to quit/taper anti d/anti anxiety meds since 2008

June 17, 2016 began prozac bridge to get off of effexor xr, stopped effexor xr on June 24, 2016, could not tolerate prozac due to severe side effects so I had to stop it  Currently...300 mg ER of lithium, 1 mg of estradiol, 60 mg propranolol ER, Fish oil 2 x a day, Magnesium Glycinate,  zinc, vitamin c, vitamin d, NAC

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment

ChessieCat, I did that post.  Sad to say the story doesn't end there because now, several years later she is back in a nursing home on a cocktail on drugs and she lies on her bed all day and is now refusing to eat. 

 

Downtongirl, now worries, that is what we are here for, and at least you are not ignorant of the facts.  Keep us informed as to how you get on.  I hope it works out well for you.

 

Today was the best day for my walking, I managed about 20-25mns without any aching or pain.  I can say for sure that high anxiety and insomnia is aggravated by visitors and talking/listening.  We had visitors yesterday late in the day who stayed for a lot longer than I can cope with.  Then I had 3 phone calls after that before bed.  I had thought this sort of thing caused the anxiety at bedtime and insomnia in the night, and this has proved it.  I had made a rule before that for 2 hours before bed I do NOTHING and i am going to have to keep sticking to that.

 

I will take a break now, as we are getting organised to go away in a few days for 3-4 weeks.   I have been able to pack and do things steadily, a little bit each day without too much stress or strain, which has been good.  The last update showed I am definitely at the same place I was when I crashed last year and the year before and had to do those holds.  The last 3 weeks have been the same, showing no improvement, but not got any worse, so that may mean I am stabilising.  How I cope with going away, and the excitement and different places and routines, etc. might be another story.  Anyway, I intend to rest as much as possible, relax and sit and enjoy the long drive tomorrow (4 hours to our first stopover) and 4 hours next day to Melbourne to catch the boat.  I have Travelcalm for sea sickness and I am hoping it makes me drowsy, otherwise I can be pretty sure I won't sleep on the boat overnight!

 

Anyway, hope you all keep turtling on, one step at a time toward the goal line!  I look forward to catching up with everyone when we get back.

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

Link to comment

Congratulations on being able to walk that far with out pain!  I hope you have a wonderful time on your upcoming trip!

1995 - 2015 antidepressants and antianxiety medicine
Multiple failed attempts to quit/taper anti d/anti anxiety meds since 2008

June 17, 2016 began prozac bridge to get off of effexor xr, stopped effexor xr on June 24, 2016, could not tolerate prozac due to severe side effects so I had to stop it  Currently...300 mg ER of lithium, 1 mg of estradiol, 60 mg propranolol ER, Fish oil 2 x a day, Magnesium Glycinate,  zinc, vitamin c, vitamin d, NAC

 

 

 

 

 

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