AliG Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Administrators 21,837 posts LocationSan Francisco, CA Posted 18 March 2015 - 12:07 PM You're taking about 14mg now? Occasionally people find if they can split the dose, they can better tolerate the drug and tapering. If I were you, I might consider taking 10mg in the morning and 4mg some time later, perhaps moving it gradually to 6 p.m. Or, you could move 1mg at a time later in the day. This is a quote from Alto . http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8022-obstacle1-paxilseroxat-since-2001-side-effects-becoming-intolerable/ This was post 18 . It would be helpful to read the whole thread. Many SSRI's and SSNRI's over 20 years. Zoloft for 7 years followed by Effexor, Lexapro, Prozac, Cymbalta, Celexa, Pristiq, Valdoxan, Mianserin and more - on and off. No tapering. Cold turkey off Valdoxan - end of May 2014 Psych Drug - free since May 2014 . Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted March 20, 2016 Moderator Share Posted March 20, 2016 Hi Odwina-- It's all going to be okay. The first thing is to not let a very uncomfortable situation panic you. It is all sensations and feelings and none of it can actually hurt you. Being afraid and panicking will just make things worse. Try to relax and accept the feelings and go on with life in spite of them. Reinstating to 14mg is way too much after being off for so long, and is probably why you feel mediciany. I would suggest no more that 3mg to start with and maybe move up when we see how that affects you. It will take four days for any change to become steady state in the blood, during that time your symptoms will have a mind of their own and do a lot of strange things. Once things are steady state, the your brain can start sorting things out and settling down. This can take an additional several weeks to several months to happen. There is no problem with splitting your dose morning and night. But what ever you do, keep it consistent until things settle down. AliG gave you some really good information, so please read through it again. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Dear AliG, First of all I want to tell you that I cannot find the right words to express my gratitude for your support! You found for me the exact quotation from Alto, the greatest expert in Paxil withdrawal (and all the other withdrawals, but I know was a Paxil sufferer). I think I should try this because only in this way I could really see if there is a problem with too high of a dose taken once. I can see that the guy to whom she answers is still very much afraid of making a change and then she tells him: "To split the dose, you might take 10mg in the morning and move 4mg an hour later each day until you're taking it in the evening. Most likely, you won't feel the difference of a hour. This is to reduce the adverse reaction you're getting to your morning dose." Shall I do like this? To be as cautious as possible? For instance now I can see I do not have the terrible anxiety I had in the first part of the day. I do not know if it can be attributed to that cortison thing. I would also need to ask you if you advised me to do this starting with tomorrow, the travelling day. I really do not know how to do to not have a crash when travelling. Lots of thanks, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
AliG Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Odwina. I think it is worth trying , as what you've been doing so far , is not working for you . This is not an exact science, Everyone is different, and there are never any guarantees. At best , this is " damage control". However, if it were me , this is what I would try , at this point in time. Unfortunately you are traveling , as well . I think it will be fine, though . It's just not ideal . As you are already on 14 mg Paxil , ( one month ) it is a way of possibly eliminating some symptoms without , going up or down in dose, which could make things worse. I hope it goes well . Ali Many SSRI's and SSNRI's over 20 years. Zoloft for 7 years followed by Effexor, Lexapro, Prozac, Cymbalta, Celexa, Pristiq, Valdoxan, Mianserin and more - on and off. No tapering. Cold turkey off Valdoxan - end of May 2014 Psych Drug - free since May 2014 . Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Hi Odwina-- It's all going to be okay. The first thing is to not let a very uncomfortable situation panic you. It is all sensations and feelings and none of it can actually hurt you. Being afraid and panicking will just make things worse. Try to relax and accept the feelings and go on with life in spite of them. Reinstating to 14mg is way too much after being off for so long, and is probably why you feel mediciany. I would suggest no more that 3mg to start with and maybe move up when we see how that affects you. It will take four days for any change to become steady state in the blood, during that time your symptoms will have a mind of their own and do a lot of strange things. Once things are steady state, the your brain can start sorting things out and settling down. This can take an additional several weeks to several months to happen. There is no problem with splitting your dose morning and night. But what ever you do, keep it consistent until things settle down. AliG gave you some really good information, so please read through it again. Dear Brassmonkey, Thank you very much for your intervention! It matters a lot to me. Yes AliG has given me very good information which I treasure a lot! Unfortunately I have today 1 month after 14 mg reinstatement (I didn't know about you when making the reinstatement), I only knew about J. Heaney's blog so I used the method he advised. I realised only much later that it could be too late. But even 2.5 weeks after making the reinstatement I was advised here to not touch the dose anymore. I will split then the dose, I have just seen AliG says the same and I will start with 10 mg at 9 am (usual time) and 4 mg one hour later. As Alto said in the thread quoted by AliG, I could move each day one hour later to not upset my poor brain. I hope that in this way I get a bit of relief. Loads of thanks, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Odwina. I think it is worth trying , as what you've been doing so far , is not working for you . This is not an exact science, Everyone is different, and there are never any guarantees. At best , this is " damage control". However, if it were me , this is what I would try , at this point in time. Unfortunately you are traveling , as well . I think it will be fine, though . It's just not ideal . As you are already on 14 mg Paxil , ( one month ) it is a way of possibly eliminating some symptoms without , going up or down in dose, which could make things worse. I hope it goes well . Ali Dear AliG, Yes, right, this is not exact science at all, it would be so good to be exact science...So I will do as suggested by you and Alto's quotation, tomorrow I will take 10 mg at 9 am and 4 mg at 10 am. And each day I will move it by one hour. And I will tell you about the symptoms. Hmmm, it is interesting, now looking retrospectively I can say that before making the reinstatement there were still hours when it was much better. But I had to do it anyway because of some terrible crises at night. I really hope that if GOD helps me to go to the acupuncturist, he will be able to alleviate again my symptoms. It is weird but with acupuncture all the time I think it would have been possible to continue without the drug, it was not easy at that time but now I think it was really a romance time. I had crises from time to time, lack of energy, but twice a week I could go to the gym! Now I can't even walk properly anymore. One thousand thanks, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Hi Odwina , please consider taking magnesium daily to assist your recovery. It can have a noticeable relaxing effect on mood and muscles , and helps your organs function easier. See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1300-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/ Also see the thread on Omega3's. Our brains need it after years on ad's. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/ Best wishes , Fresh Dear Fresh, Sorry, I cannot find your answer in my thread, it is only in my e-mail, this is why I answer here. Am I mistaken? I have just read the whole tread where Alto discusses with Obstacle1. My usual 14 mg are in the morning, that is 9 am. So am I not in the same situation? I would like to take the bulk of the drug at the usual time, that is 9 am - 10 mg and then one hour later, so at 10 am, 4 mg. And after 2-3 days moving the 4 mg at 11 am. Then 2-4 days later 12 o'clock. And in this way to reach 6 pm with the 4 mg. Isn't it correct like this? - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Fresh Posted March 21, 2016 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 21, 2016 Yes , you're right Odwina. I had thought you were taking it at night , so I removed my last post. Please consider brassmonkey's suggestion that 14mg is too big of a dose , even though we understand the way you arrived at that decision. 1987-1997 pertofran , prothiaden , Prozac 1997-2002 Zoloft 2002-2004 effexor 2004-2010 Lexapro 40mg 2010-2012Cymbalta 120mg Sept. 2012 -decreased 90mg in 6months. Care taken over by Dr Lucire in March 2013 , decreased last 30mg at 2mg per week over 3 months. July 21 , 2013- last dose of Cymbalta Protracted withdrawal syndrome kicked in badly Jan.2014 Unrelenting akathisia until May 2014. Voluntary hosp. admission. Cocktail of Seroquel, Ativan and mirtazapine and I was well enough to go home after 14 days. Stopped all hosp. meds in next few months. July 2014 felt v.depressed - couldn't stop crying. Started pristiq 50mg. Felt improvement within days and continued to improve, so stayed on 50mg for 8 months. Began taper 28 Feb. 2015. Pristiq 50mg down to 45mg. Had one month of w/d symptoms. Started CES therapy in March. No w/d symptoms down to 30mg. October 2015 , taking 25mg Pristiq. Capsules compounded with slow-release additive. March 2016 , 21mg Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Reinstating to 14mg is way too much after being off for so long, and is probably why you feel mediciany. I would suggest no more that 3mg to start with and maybe move up when we see how that affects you. It will take four days for any change to become steady state in the blood, during that during that time your symptoms will have a mind of their own and do a lot of strange things. Once things are steady state, the your brain can start sorting things out and settling down. This can take an additional several weeks to several months to happen. - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Reinstating to 14mg is way too much after being off for so long, and is probably why you feel mediciany. I would suggest no more that 3mg to start with and maybe move up when we see how that affects you. It will take four days for any change to become steady state in the blood, during that during that time your symptoms will have a mind of their own and do a lot of strange things. Once things are steady state, the your brain can start sorting things out and settling down. This can take an additional several weeks to several months to happen. Dear Fresh, dear Brassmonkey, Sorry Fresh, I do not know how to reply to both of you at the same time but I know that you are following my thread so I think you will get a notification. So Fresh, you said, "Please consider brassmonkey's suggestion that 14mg is too big of a dose , even though we understand the way you arrived at that decision." Of course that I consider Brassmonkey's suggestion (and thank you for being so kind to me, I need your support so much) because I myself haqve had this sensation of being overdrugged several times. But I knew from you that it would be too dangerous to modify the dose after reinstatement and that I should have patience. Today I did as we said yesterday, I took 10 mg Paxil at the usual time and 4 mg one hour later, at 10 am. I monitored myself and today after taking the main dose I didn't have the sensation of being overdrugged or overactive brain. But in the afternoon I had a very strong feeling of detachement, as though you are looking at others behind a sheet of glass, not in the same world. I analysed the 4 weeks after the reinstatement and overall I cant say it is much better. After the reinstatement I have less physical symptoms (although some are still present, like headache and nausea). The sweating was reduced but it appeared only after reinstatement (I didn't have it before). The big problem is that the psychological symptoms are still very strong and the tiredness. Now I am feeling ill all the time, before reinstatement I had really good windows which are now gone. Last real window was 3 days after reinstatement when I felt completely normal. After the reinstatement the anxiety increased. The sensation of being in another world appeared only after reinstatement. Before reinstatement I didn't have this neverending insomnia which started 3 weeks ago. I have more really desperate moments than before. Yesterday I felt like I was having a complete nervous breakdown and I had a feeling that I have too much drug. At present, I think, I have more suicidal moments. So I would say that before reinstatement I had waves and windows, now I feel overall unwell permanently. It was very bad before reinstatement - and this is why I did it and I know that I had to do it not to enter into protracted withdrawal - but now I can make the comparison between the 2 periods. Please after reading all this advise me what to do exactly and I would do what you say, I do not want to make big mistakes anymore and you are the ones having so much experience. I want to do it starting with tomorrow. You know that when I did my reinstatement I did James Heaney's method as I found out about you only one week later. He calculates 10% reduction for every month of break, this is how I came to 14 mg. (I had 3.5 months break). James Heaney also says that one month after reinstatement people can have a next 10% cut (well, I supposed at that time I would be stabilised after one month but I am not). Would it be an idea to cut tomorrow 10% and maybe also doing the splitting to trick a bit my brain, so 10 mg at 9 am and 2.6 mg one hour later? (gradually moving the second dose towards 6 pm as Alto said). Brassmonkey's suggestion is very radical, I do not know if I can dare do this being so ill at the moment, I do not know what will happen. Please give me the very official advice. Loads of thanks, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted March 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2016 Hi Odwina-- I'm sorry to hear that things are still going roughly for you. My recommendation does sound rather radical but there is a reason for it. The very fast taper you did last fall was viewed by your body as a cold turkey, which threw your brain and nervous system into chaos and leaving it very sensitive to the drug. Over the past four months it has been working desperately to make sense of everything and get itself working right again. It was making some good progress even though you felt very badly. Suddenly throwing a large amount of the drug at it only added to the confusion and is what is causing the worse symptoms that you are now feeling. Things like the sweating, detachment, and feeling like a nervous breakdown are, in this case, indicators that there is too much drug being put in your system. The idea behind starting at 3mg is to take in just enough drug to settle he previous symptoms and at the same time not up set your system. It's all a very delicate balancing act, that has to be adjusted very slowly while, unfortunately having to put up with some really unpleasant symptoms. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Fresh Posted March 21, 2016 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 21, 2016 Thank you for such a helpful summary Odwina. I have referred the post above for discussion so that we can come to a concensus on the best way forward. You have given the 14mg a good shot by staying on one stable dose for 4 weeks. But now it's time to revise the plan. I'm thinking you might do a "fast taper" , decreasing by 2 or 3 mg every few days , until you get down to 3 to 5mg. Brassmonkey , what do you think? 1987-1997 pertofran , prothiaden , Prozac 1997-2002 Zoloft 2002-2004 effexor 2004-2010 Lexapro 40mg 2010-2012Cymbalta 120mg Sept. 2012 -decreased 90mg in 6months. Care taken over by Dr Lucire in March 2013 , decreased last 30mg at 2mg per week over 3 months. July 21 , 2013- last dose of Cymbalta Protracted withdrawal syndrome kicked in badly Jan.2014 Unrelenting akathisia until May 2014. Voluntary hosp. admission. Cocktail of Seroquel, Ativan and mirtazapine and I was well enough to go home after 14 days. Stopped all hosp. meds in next few months. July 2014 felt v.depressed - couldn't stop crying. Started pristiq 50mg. Felt improvement within days and continued to improve, so stayed on 50mg for 8 months. Began taper 28 Feb. 2015. Pristiq 50mg down to 45mg. Had one month of w/d symptoms. Started CES therapy in March. No w/d symptoms down to 30mg. October 2015 , taking 25mg Pristiq. Capsules compounded with slow-release additive. March 2016 , 21mg Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted March 22, 2016 Administrator Share Posted March 22, 2016 Odwina, the sweating, as well as the disturbing thoughts and anxiety, indicate you're taking too much Paxil right now. If I were you, I would try taking a little less. How about 2mg as the second dose rather than 4mg? Please let us know how you're doing and keep notes on paper about your daily symptom pattern. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Hi Odwina-- I'm sorry to hear that things are still going roughly for you. My recommendation does sound rather radical but there is a reason for it. The very fast taper you did last fall was viewed by your body as a cold turkey, which threw your brain and nervous system into chaos and leaving it very sensitive to the drug. Over the past four months it has been working desperately to make sense of everything and get itself working right again. It was making some good progress even though you felt very badly. Suddenly throwing a large amount of the drug at it only added to the confusion and is what is causing the worse symptoms that you are now feeling. Things like the sweating, detachment, and feeling like a nervous breakdown are, in this case, indicators that there is too much drug being put in your system. The idea behind starting at 3mg is to take in just enough drug to settle he previous symptoms and at the same time not up set your system. It's all a very delicate balancing act, that has to be adjusted very slowly while, unfortunately having to put up with some really unpleasant symptoms. Dear Alto, dear Fresh, dear Brassmonkey, I really had tears in my eyes this morning when seeing your 3 messages and there are no words to express my gratefulness. You are the very essence of GOD's purpose when making the human being, so much love and kindness for the other human beings in suffering. And so are AliG, Ladybug, Chessiecat, NZ11, Petu and BasilDev, I have so much respect and admiration for all of them. You simply jumped to my help when I needed it, analysed everything, made council in order to give me the best solution! So I did as recommended by you, reducing my dose by 2 mg and I am going to keep it like this for 5 days, then reducing again by another 2 mg. So today I had 10 mg at 9 am and 2 mg at 10 am. (12 mg total). One last question for the moment: shall I keep pushing by one hour later my second dose? Or this doesn't matter any more? Today's symptoms: terrible panic attack in the morning, before taking the Paxil, completely irrational. In the evening: it was like suddenly everything turned black and negative and a very deep depression set in. I felt suicidal again. But I am hanging in! Thousands of thanks, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
AliG Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Odwina. Maybe , keep things as they are for now . Wait for Alto's opinion. My instinct, would be to keep splitting the second dose , a bit further apart , until you have a morning and afternoon / evening dose. However, I would wait for confirmation on that . The fact that you saw "black " in the evening , makes me think it would be a good idea . As I said though, keep everything the same for now. Ali Many SSRI's and SSNRI's over 20 years. Zoloft for 7 years followed by Effexor, Lexapro, Prozac, Cymbalta, Celexa, Pristiq, Valdoxan, Mianserin and more - on and off. No tapering. Cold turkey off Valdoxan - end of May 2014 Psych Drug - free since May 2014 . Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted March 23, 2016 Administrator Share Posted March 23, 2016 Odwina, did you ever have those types of symptoms before? This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 Odwina, did you ever have those types of symptoms before? No, I have never had them before. I just had the crisis of my life, I couldn't sleep at all during the night, my head was pounding all the time, like a hammer and I was wide awake. In the morning, now, the most terrible depression came, I feel like I would never get out of this. It is only my friend who keeps me here otherwise I would be in hospital. I feel like it is the end. 12 mg today, 10 mg (9am) + 2 mg (10 am) - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Fresh Posted March 23, 2016 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 23, 2016 You've been doing great tolerating this Odwina. You have a plan now to decrease very slowly , and hopefully some of those symptoms will start to lessen. We often see the mood dip as things get re-established , it's another phase that isn't permanent. Your friend is doing an amazing job helping you stay out of hospital. We know that hospitals solve problems by adding more and more meds. till you feel almost nothing. You've probably been told or read on here that it takes 4 days after a dose change to reach a steady state in your blood stream , and changes can be felt in the days following. So let's see how things are in another few days. If I were you , I'd be more interested in lowering the dose than splitting it. Splitting it means you're stuck with meds. twice a day , which when you're better is just a nuisance. The idea of separating your dose is so that your brain isn't hit with the assault of the large dose at one time , but you're still getting the higher dose. The lower the dose you can stabilize on the better in the long run. Thank you for updating your signature already ... it really help the moderators and readers. Keep doing all the distracting techniques in your tool-box. There are some threads about to help manage anxiety etc. in the Symptoms and Self Care section , see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10964-the-dr-claire-weekes-method-of-recovering-from-a-sensitized-nervous-system/ and http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6122-guided-meditations-calming-videos-sleep-hypnosis/ 1987-1997 pertofran , prothiaden , Prozac 1997-2002 Zoloft 2002-2004 effexor 2004-2010 Lexapro 40mg 2010-2012Cymbalta 120mg Sept. 2012 -decreased 90mg in 6months. Care taken over by Dr Lucire in March 2013 , decreased last 30mg at 2mg per week over 3 months. July 21 , 2013- last dose of Cymbalta Protracted withdrawal syndrome kicked in badly Jan.2014 Unrelenting akathisia until May 2014. Voluntary hosp. admission. Cocktail of Seroquel, Ativan and mirtazapine and I was well enough to go home after 14 days. Stopped all hosp. meds in next few months. July 2014 felt v.depressed - couldn't stop crying. Started pristiq 50mg. Felt improvement within days and continued to improve, so stayed on 50mg for 8 months. Began taper 28 Feb. 2015. Pristiq 50mg down to 45mg. Had one month of w/d symptoms. Started CES therapy in March. No w/d symptoms down to 30mg. October 2015 , taking 25mg Pristiq. Capsules compounded with slow-release additive. March 2016 , 21mg Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 You've been doing great tolerating this Odwina. You have a plan now to decrease very slowly , and hopefully some of those symptoms will start to lessen. We often see the mood dip as things get re-established , it's another phase that isn't permanent. Your friend is doing an amazing job helping you stay out of hospital. We know that hospitals solve problems by adding more and more meds. till you feel almost nothing. You've probably been told or read on here that it takes 4 days after a dose change to reach a steady state in your blood stream , and changes can be felt in the days following. So let's see how things are in another few days. If I were you , I'd be more interested in lowering the dose than splitting it. Splitting it means you're stuck with meds. twice a day , which when you're better is just a nuisance. The idea of separating your dose is so that your brain isn't hit with the assault of the large dose at one time , but you're still getting the higher dose. The lower the dose you can stabilize on the better in the long run. Thank you for updating your signature already ... it really help the moderators and readers. Keep doing all the distracting techniques in your tool-box. There are some threads about to help manage anxiety etc. in the Symptoms and Self Care section , see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10964-the-dr-claire-weekes-method-of-recovering-from-a-sensitized-nervous-system/ and http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6122-guided-meditations-calming-videos-sleep-hypnosis/ Dear Fresh, Thank you very much for looking after me in such a beautiful way! Thank you for all your encouragements! Yes, I realise you are right, the splitting is presently no longer so important because at al lower dose it won't be so relevant anymore. So maybe when I change to 10 mg (I intend to do it on Sunday, after 5 days on 12 mg), I will only have one dose of 10 mg. Yes, I know now that the brain needs 4 days to feel the reduction, I am learning here.... Unfortunately sleep hypnosis doesn't work for me, I have tried several programs already. Last night no sleep at all again. I can only hope that maybe with less drug I will get a bit of sleep, I have never had any problems before. I restarted yesterday the acupuncture with the Romanian doctor who is a remarkable personality, passionate about his profession, an inventor also. Who knows, it can be that the acupuncture did more than I thought when making the reinstatement and being very desperate in France and this is why it is presently too much drug for me. It is only soothing acupuncture for the nervous system, the doctor knew immediately what to do with me when I started the treatment with him end of October. I also hope a lot that he can also help me a bit with this insomnia. Oh, the last trick of the drug is now the most terrible depression. It is so envading, so overwhelming, making me so afraid of the future. But I know it, I have to hang in, no matter how difficult it is, with so much support, I can only hang in! Thousands of thanks, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 Odwina. Maybe , keep things as they are for now . Wait for Alto's opinion. My instinct, would be to keep splitting the second dose , a bit further apart , until you have a morning and afternoon / evening dose. However, I would wait for confirmation on that . The fact that you saw "black " in the evening , makes me think it would be a good idea . As I said though, keep everything the same for now. Ali Dear AliG, Loads of thanks - as usual - for this so beautiful support that you are giving to me! I could see that Alto didn't mention in her reply to me about this and then Fresh answered me saying that now that I have to do this fast tapering (as I reinstated too much drug, so reinstatement didn't give me relief in the end, only made things worse the way I did it), the splitting won't be so important anymore as it will be soon less drug for the brain so I won't feel very druggy anymore. So for the moment I will keep it this way and, in 3 days, when I have to change again the quantity, I will stick to one dose). Now the most terrible depression has invaded me, it started yesterday, black, so black, cuts any hope for a better future. Do you know any tricks for depression? Unfortunately I am so weak for the moment that I can only walk very little in a park to distract my thoughts. Once again, thank you for everything! O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 Hi Odwina-- I'm sorry to hear that things are still going roughly for you. My recommendation does sound rather radical but there is a reason for it. The very fast taper you did last fall was viewed by your body as a cold turkey, which threw your brain and nervous system into chaos and leaving it very sensitive to the drug. Over the past four months it has been working desperately to make sense of everything and get itself working right again. It was making some good progress even though you felt very badly. Suddenly throwing a large amount of the drug at it only added to the confusion and is what is causing the worse symptoms that you are now feeling. Things like the sweating, detachment, and feeling like a nervous breakdown are, in this case, indicators that there is too much drug being put in your system. The idea behind starting at 3mg is to take in just enough drug to settle he previous symptoms and at the same time not up set your system. It's all a very delicate balancing act, that has to be adjusted very slowly while, unfortunately having to put up with some really unpleasant symptoms. Dear Alto, dear Fresh, dear Brassmonkey, I need your invaluable advice once more, please give me the official answer. Just as advised by you, I started the rapid tapering, target being 3 mg as Brassmonkey said and the way of doing it, subtracting 2 mg every few days, as Alto and Fresh said. So on Tue 22 March I started taking 12 mg. I said to myself I will keep it at 12 for 5 days (to have 4 days to allow the brain to register the new quantity and 1 bridge-day). Tuesday night was very bad, I didn't sleep at all, my brain was overactive. Wednesday morning I was frozen in fear and depression. Wednesday afternoon it was a totally invading depression with despair and despondency. On Thursday it became gradually better, the afternoon and the evening were very good. On Friday morning I felt completely dead inside and exhausted, no energy at all. In the evening it was not right but still a bit better, I could go out. Fri night I slept the whole night, it was wonderful, I woke up quite alert feeling really nice and relaxed, feeling a very good day was about to start. Then I took 10 mg paxil, I felt a bit drowsy. One hour later - big mistake, I should have made the reduction today, I took the last 2 mg, suddenly I felt very-very tired, sleepy, overrelaxed with occasional electromagnetic waves passing through my head, I became bedridden, now I am still in bed, not able to do anything, I am feeling heavily sedated and sleepy even though I slept the night. So tomorrow morning I am going to make the new reduction. Please tell me, considering what happened today when it has become so obvious that I am taking too much drug, can I dare subtract 4 mg instead of 2? My idea is to take 8 mg and then wait and see. Please advise me if this would be wise or not, or if 4 mg subtraction all of a sudden would be too much of a shock to my brain. Thank you very much, O PS - I am feeling so so druggie now, still in bed. Even 10 mg seems too many as I felt feeling drousy afterwards. So I would say it was good I made the splitting, without the splitting I wouldn't have known. - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted March 26, 2016 Administrator Share Posted March 26, 2016 If I were you, I'd keep the reductions small, no more than 2mg unless there's an emergency. That symptom pattern does look like reduction is the appropriate path. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 27, 2016 Author Share Posted March 27, 2016 If I were you, I'd keep the reductions small, no more than 2mg unless there's an emergency. That symptom pattern does look like reduction is the appropriate path. Happy Easter, Alto (I think you have Easter today) I did as you said, just that I split the dose, 9 mg at 9 am and 1 mg at 11 am. So total 10 mg, I subtracted 2 mg and I will keep it like this for 4 days. I couldn't sleep at all the whole night (the other night I slept well because I had acupuncture in the morning, but this acupuncture I will not be able to have it at home and I won't have it again till Tuesday, it is frightening to know 2 more sleepless nights will follow), could you please tell me what causes this terrible insomnia, is it too much drug? (and then it will be fixed by reducing the drug) or is it sheer withdrawal and I may stay with this for months / years, so frightening. In the morning I was simply frozen with fear, afraid to even move!!! My mind couldn't even contemplate doing anything. That lasted for 4 hours. Then anxiety and panic attacks started, and I am still waiting for them to fade, more than 6 hours after. It is so scary and looks neverending. Is this withdrawal? Or is it too much drug? I am so much looking forward to finding some kind of equilibrium with this terrible drug, I am bedridden most of the time and I feel like my life is passing by. Thank you so much, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 Help, please! Woke up soaking in sweat and lots of ants crawling, headache, feeling exhausted. Most of the mornings in the last 7 days were without sweat and feeling better. Yesterday, the last half of the day was terrible crisis, I gradually felt tired, headache, very anxious, the terrible feeling of unwell. I am so worried, I feel like my life is at the end. Last 6 days, each day, I also had some hours when I felt quite good, first time after reinstatement that I had a few days in a row with hours of feeling better. But today the morning is like when I was on 14 mg. And I am so desperate, I wish so much to find the right dose to become stable. - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Fresh Posted March 29, 2016 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 29, 2016 There's no need to panic Odwina. If you went down to 10mg just 2 days ago , you might want to stay at this level for at least another 4-7 days. It may be that cutting down any more will cause more trouble than it's worth. After this long on 14mg , the goal is no longer the 3mg we would have suggested in the beginning. The point of decreasing was hopefully to minimize some of your symptoms , but without causing a w/d reaction. It's a balancing act. This morning may have been a "one-off" , or it may just be a new symptom. Let's see how the next few days go. bw , Fresh 1987-1997 pertofran , prothiaden , Prozac 1997-2002 Zoloft 2002-2004 effexor 2004-2010 Lexapro 40mg 2010-2012Cymbalta 120mg Sept. 2012 -decreased 90mg in 6months. Care taken over by Dr Lucire in March 2013 , decreased last 30mg at 2mg per week over 3 months. July 21 , 2013- last dose of Cymbalta Protracted withdrawal syndrome kicked in badly Jan.2014 Unrelenting akathisia until May 2014. Voluntary hosp. admission. Cocktail of Seroquel, Ativan and mirtazapine and I was well enough to go home after 14 days. Stopped all hosp. meds in next few months. July 2014 felt v.depressed - couldn't stop crying. Started pristiq 50mg. Felt improvement within days and continued to improve, so stayed on 50mg for 8 months. Began taper 28 Feb. 2015. Pristiq 50mg down to 45mg. Had one month of w/d symptoms. Started CES therapy in March. No w/d symptoms down to 30mg. October 2015 , taking 25mg Pristiq. Capsules compounded with slow-release additive. March 2016 , 21mg Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 There's no need to panic Odwina. If you went down to 10mg just 2 days ago , you might want to stay at this level for at least another 4-7 days. It may be that cutting down any more will cause more trouble than it's worth. After this long on 14mg , the goal is no longer the 3mg we would have suggested in the beginning. The point of decreasing was hopefully to minimize some of your symptoms , but without causing a w/d reaction. It's a balancing act. This morning may have been a "one-off" , or it may just be a new symptom. Let's see how the next few days go. bw , Fresh Dear Fresh, it is an overwhelming fear, I feel like I am going mad, I do not know how to manage this symptom. Yesterday it was still the sensation of too much drug because it worsened after taking the drug. I am staying anyway here, 12 was not the balance, and I have to see. - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Fresh Posted March 29, 2016 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 29, 2016 I've had it too Odwina , a sense of fear / panic , that attaches to anything you think about. You need to tell yourself over and over that it's a symptom , that it will pass , that it's not permanent. Write out some soothing , reassuring words to read when it's bad. The episodes always do pass, and your job is to sit it out. It really is going to get better. It might help to read this link , but if it scares you , then please don't http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5213-fear-terror-panic-and-anxiety/ 1987-1997 pertofran , prothiaden , Prozac 1997-2002 Zoloft 2002-2004 effexor 2004-2010 Lexapro 40mg 2010-2012Cymbalta 120mg Sept. 2012 -decreased 90mg in 6months. Care taken over by Dr Lucire in March 2013 , decreased last 30mg at 2mg per week over 3 months. July 21 , 2013- last dose of Cymbalta Protracted withdrawal syndrome kicked in badly Jan.2014 Unrelenting akathisia until May 2014. Voluntary hosp. admission. Cocktail of Seroquel, Ativan and mirtazapine and I was well enough to go home after 14 days. Stopped all hosp. meds in next few months. July 2014 felt v.depressed - couldn't stop crying. Started pristiq 50mg. Felt improvement within days and continued to improve, so stayed on 50mg for 8 months. Began taper 28 Feb. 2015. Pristiq 50mg down to 45mg. Had one month of w/d symptoms. Started CES therapy in March. No w/d symptoms down to 30mg. October 2015 , taking 25mg Pristiq. Capsules compounded with slow-release additive. March 2016 , 21mg Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted March 29, 2016 Administrator Share Posted March 29, 2016 Odwina, it may take some time for your nervous system to settle down, please see The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 Dearest Alto, dearest Fresh, Thank you so much for your support, I need it so much. Please, just give me an answer which I cannot really find in the threads, somehow and somewhere during the withdrawal I lost myself, I lost any zest for life, does this come back? And when? Can it come back during the withdrawal when the quantity of poison has been reduced? Or can it only come when people take zero drug? Thank you so much, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted March 29, 2016 Moderator Share Posted March 29, 2016 Hi Odwina-- yes, it comes back as you taper. These drugs work by making you feel nothing, they suppress ALL your emotions, hopes, desires, passions with out discrimination. Leaving a person feeling dead inside. As the drug is slowly removed from your system all those emotions will start to peek back through in fits and starts. They will come and go in a very frustrating manner, but slowly they will become more prominent. Once a person reaches "0" their brain can really start to sort things out and even more improvements are made. Because each one of us experiences these drugs in a little different manner it's impossible to guess how long it will take for them to fully return, but as we taper things are improving all the time. Having the patience to let it happen and not try to force it to happen is a hard thing, but it will happen faster if we don't allow ourselves to be desperate for it. Working little bits each day helps. Allowing the joy or just imagining the joy in small things helps the brain with it's sorting. Feeling how good a cold drink is, the colors of a flower, the shape of clouds, birds singing. They're all little things we normally take for granted, that we need to focus on to help the brain recall what joy should feel like. It may not be bubbling over, grab life by the tail exuberance. That will come in time, for right now we need to uncover and repair the foundation of those feelings so we have a solid base to build on. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted March 29, 2016 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 29, 2016 "but it will happen faster if we don't allow ourselves to be desperate for it." I agree. This is what I wrote on someone else's thread recently: "It can be so easy to give in to the struggle but I believe that accepting the struggle and learning to be patient and endure it in as calm a way as possible is what can make this journey through tapering and withdrawal more bearable. Fighting against it only adds fuel to it and doesn't give our brain the chance to do what it is so desperately trying to do." "Allowing the joy or just imagining the joy in small things helps the brain with it's sorting." Most definitely. Recently I enjoyed watching the bubbles in a bottle of dishwashing liquid. Sitting having afternoon tea in the park on Easter Sunday with my daughter, I enjoyed the feeling of having the breeze blowing over me. It's a combination of things really. It's a distraction from the withdrawal and it's retraining the brain. * NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA * MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 30, 2016 Author Share Posted March 30, 2016 Hi Odwina-- yes, it comes back as you taper. These drugs work by making you feel nothing, they suppress ALL your emotions, hopes, desires, passions with out discrimination. Leaving a person feeling dead inside. As the drug is slowly removed from your system all those emotions will start to peek back through in fits and starts. They will come and go in a very frustrating manner, but slowly they will become more prominent. Once a person reaches "0" their brain can really start to sort things out and even more improvements are made. Because each one of us experiences these drugs in a little different manner it's impossible to guess how long it will take for them to fully return, but as we taper things are improving all the time. Having the patience to let it happen and not try to force it to happen is a hard thing, but it will happen faster if we don't allow ourselves to be desperate for it. Working little bits each day helps. Allowing the joy or just imagining the joy in small things helps the brain with it's sorting. Feeling how good a cold drink is, the colors of a flower, the shape of clouds, birds singing. They're all little things we normally take for granted, that we need to focus on to help the brain recall what joy should feel like. It may not be bubbling over, grab life by the tail exuberance. That will come in time, for right now we need to uncover and repair the foundation of those feelings so we have a solid base to build on. Dear Brassmonkey, Thank you so much for this most beautiful letter of yours - you explained everything to me in such a beautiful way. And I know that every word you wrote is much more than a simple word as it comes from your own so courageous fight with paxil. I am so looking forward to that day! O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 30, 2016 Author Share Posted March 30, 2016 "but it will happen faster if we don't allow ourselves to be desperate for it." I agree. This is what I wrote on someone else's thread recently: "It can be so easy to give in to the struggle but I believe that accepting the struggle and learning to be patient and endure it in as calm a way as possible is what can make this journey through tapering and withdrawal more bearable. Fighting against it only adds fuel to it and doesn't give our brain the chance to do what it is so desperately trying to do." "Allowing the joy or just imagining the joy in small things helps the brain with it's sorting." Most definitely. Recently I enjoyed watching the bubbles in a bottle of dishwashing liquid. Sitting having afternoon tea in the park on Easter Sunday with my daughter, I enjoyed the feeling of having the breeze blowing over me. It's a combination of things really. It's a distraction from the withdrawal and it's retraining the brain. Dear Chessiecat, Yes, my brain needs so much retraining... I wish I could put all this in practice. But I am trying hard... - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 30, 2016 Author Share Posted March 30, 2016 Dear moderators, Regarding the fast tapering recommended by you as it was proved that I reinstated too much drug and this made withdrawal terribly painful, today has been the fourth day on 10 mg. (as Alto suggested, I cut 2 mg every few days). Last time I made the change after 5 days (thinking it would be good to have a bridge-day, but the fifth day on 12 mg was very bad, with obvious worsening after taking the drug in the morning). Tomorrow I would like to try to reduce it again by 2 mg (so I had 4 days on 10 mg) as I observed the same pattern in the last four days: it is always much better after 6 in the evenings although not 100 % OK (maybe 55% OK), very difficult periods after taking the second part of the dose (the last 2 mg) - druggy feelings: tired, headache, sometimes depression, general feeling of unwell preventing doing anything. This morning for instance I woke up OK, took 8 mg paxil at 9.15 am, fine for two hours, took top up - 2 mg at 10.30 am and felt druggy, tired, depressive feelings starting about 12 o'clock suggesting that the 2 mg was just too much. I also have a druggy feeling in my bowels and intestines. Could I try it this way? Thank you very much, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Fresh Posted March 31, 2016 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 31, 2016 It sounds like you've become very aware of how you respond to the second smaller dose. Cutting out the second 2mg sounds like a good idea Odwina. Please hold there for at least 4 days before going down any further. 1987-1997 pertofran , prothiaden , Prozac 1997-2002 Zoloft 2002-2004 effexor 2004-2010 Lexapro 40mg 2010-2012Cymbalta 120mg Sept. 2012 -decreased 90mg in 6months. Care taken over by Dr Lucire in March 2013 , decreased last 30mg at 2mg per week over 3 months. July 21 , 2013- last dose of Cymbalta Protracted withdrawal syndrome kicked in badly Jan.2014 Unrelenting akathisia until May 2014. Voluntary hosp. admission. Cocktail of Seroquel, Ativan and mirtazapine and I was well enough to go home after 14 days. Stopped all hosp. meds in next few months. July 2014 felt v.depressed - couldn't stop crying. Started pristiq 50mg. Felt improvement within days and continued to improve, so stayed on 50mg for 8 months. Began taper 28 Feb. 2015. Pristiq 50mg down to 45mg. Had one month of w/d symptoms. Started CES therapy in March. No w/d symptoms down to 30mg. October 2015 , taking 25mg Pristiq. Capsules compounded with slow-release additive. March 2016 , 21mg Link to comment
Odwina Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 It sounds like you've become very aware of how you respond to the second smaller dose. Cutting out the second 2mg sounds like a good idea Odwina. Please hold there for at least 4 days before going down any further. Thank you very much, Fresh, yes, you are right, it seems I am much more aware of how my brain answers to the small dose. So I cut today 2 mg again and I would still keep it splitted, the second smaller dose is still 2 mg to see what it happens further away. So I took 6 + 2 = 8 mg. It has been the best day up to now!!! I can see in your signature that we have no wd symptoms at present, it is so nice to read this! Thousands thanks, O - on Paxil for more than 20 years, usual dosage 20 mg, in times of crises 40 or 60 mg (once even 80 for a few months!) - 9 November 2015 - quit Paxil practically cold turkey (3 weeks tapering) - 20 Feb 2016 - after 3.5 months on zero drug reinstated 14 mg paxil because of entering unbearable protracted wd - reinstatement brought no relief, only worse, terrible akhatisia crises, sleep lost completely till I finally understood that my brain could no longer accept the slightest dose of paxil, so tapering after reinstatement became impossible 6 May - 1 October 2016 - in psychiatric clinic in France where I was given: Quitaxon (doxepine), a tricyclic - 50 mg - 6 weeks, no improvement, very bad side effects; doctor tried paxil again at only 5 mg and I became suicidal - then Lexapro, 15 June - end August, very gradual increasing to 15 mg - zomboid only, released from clinic and had to be reatmitted after only a few days. remeron tried too, rejected violently by the body - 1 sept 2015 - back in clinic changed directly for Effexor over 4 weeks rising from 37.5 to 187.5 mgs at discharge on 2nd October; 12 October 2015 - decided tapering effexor as it only made me very sick, every 3 weeks dropped 37.5 mg - 26 Dec - zero effexor, tried prozac and then clomipramine bridge, both rejected Link to comment
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