Cheryl: SSRI Withdrawal

[Cheryl]

I am actually I'm here right now again to post another symptom. I went through dr. Joseph Glenmullin's list of withdrawal symptoms,and I can't quite pinpoint this one. It's sometimes when I have a slight rise in my B/P and then I feel a bit of panic, not quite anxiety.today I tried to do some breathing exercises and it is not working so I gave in and took my .25 of klonopin. I seem to be ok when I am sitting, but as soon as I stand up and my blood pressure rises slightly I feel that "panic" sensation.

Have you or anyone else experienced this?

[AliG]

Cheryl.  This is a process, and any sort of panic is common , at this point . Breathing/ meditation and yoga  are all good coping skills, which are great to practice , and become adept at . That way you always have a " fallback " skill, instead of relying totally on Klonopin.  Then, when you feel more confident you can gradually step off the drug slowly, with a slow taper.

Everyone is different , but a lot of the symptoms are similar . It sounds like cortisol . Yes, I have experienced similar . Try not to worry. It will hopefully recede, in time.

C/T is cold turkey .

Ali

[Cheryl]

Thank you Ali...

Not C/T for me, thank goodness.

[Cheryl]

I think I may have had one of the worse days today, at least that's what it felt like. I feel like I may lose my mind. The day started out good then it turned to anxiety and anger due an issue at work. I worked out of it. Was happy to get home early with goal to get out and walk. I never went. I called my state regarding taxes, bounced between multiple agents and on hold for over an hour. I never got my answer. Anger turned to complete rage for a while, then tears. I never "switched" emotions this many times in one day. I fear I became my own worst enemy. Any thoughts??

[AliG]

Cheryl . This sounds like neuro - emotions which is a common symptom of withdrawal. Unfortunately , unlike a twitch / zap which is purely physical this involves people  ( either loved ones or workmates) , which can be tricky at times. Emotions, can seem to have a mind of their own in withdrawal and can escalate wildly, despite our best efforts to reign them in.

 

Practicing acceptance helps as well as awareness, although sometimes it can feel like a runaway train or a snowball gathering speed.  At these times stepping away or just cooling down can calm things down. I think there can sometimes be a certain truth that comes out which can be too confronting to those around us at times.

 

Your emotions at this time can be amplified, and need to be managed, in a way that works for you. That might be meditation or exercise etc.  It is up to you to find your way of coping . I'm sure that you will find it,  and come out of this whole experience stronger than ever. 

Ali

[Cheryl]

Thank you Ali...I will have to find a way. I think practicing mindfulness may help with better self-awareness?

I pray this phase does not last too long.

[Cheryl]

I am posting an update: As of today I'm in my 9th month post WD from AD. Starting tonight I will only be on .25 mg klonopin.

My windows and waves still exist but waves are to a lesser degree. Still have obsessive/obtrusive thinking, OCDish and nausea with anxiety.

My main concern is my weight loss, which now includes muscle loss. My hip joints and legs ache and my hair is thinning.

 

I had read somewhere in "symptoms" section about adrenal fatigue but there are too many sections to go through. I am certain this is what is happening to me because my cortisol levels are still elevated.

I am planning to have my cortisol levels checked if my doctor will order. Thyroid levels are fine.

Is there anything else I should have checked and does anyone have any recommendations for me?

[scallywag]

Good to read that the waves are weakening.

 

About the weight loss -- do what you can to eat calorie-rich foods. Figure out some protein-rich foods you like and make them your "go-to" items.

 

Let us know what you find out with your doc and from the cortisol tests.

[Cheryl]

Thank you Scallywag!

I do eat the best I can witin my budget and what my crohn's disease allows.

I drink a protein supplement every AM. I am thinking I should increase that to twice daily.

Will definitely update.

[Cheryl]

Update:

Saw my dr, bloodwork was fine including cortisol.

Conclusion was severe sleep deprivation, stress related.

I was sleeping 6 hrs straight 2.5 mos ago, but stress at work and home increased. I was prescribed melatonin and low dose ambien to reset body clock Nov. 22st.

Sleep improved but not the best.

I'm currently on 750mcg melatonin and down to 5mg tonight.

Any suggestions??

[scallywag]

I don't understand your post -- going from 750 mcg to 5 mg is a huge increase.

 

Unless you are saying that you are taking 750 mcg melatonin and decreasing Ambien from ___ mg  to 5 mg. Please clarify.

[Cheryl]

Yes! I was just on 7.5mg ambien and plan to reduce to 5mg tonight.

Melotonon is currently at 750mcg.

I believe ambien lasts only 3-4 hours as well.

I plan to get rid of ambien because not many pills left.

[scallywag]

It isn't advisable to "just stop" taking Ambien. Please read about tapering z-drugs such as Ambien at this topic:

 

Tips for tapering off Z-drugs for sleep, e.g. Ambien and Lunesta

[Cheryl]

Thank you for responding.

Wow! I was unaware.

I was prescribed 10 tablets, 5mg with one refill.

As of right now I only have 4 tablets left, 5mg each.

I'm not certain I can get another refill.

I don't quite understand the 12.5% per week. Should I ask for 10 more?

 

Also, I'm still not sure on what to do with melatonin.

Thank you!

[Cheryl]

**I thought it be important to note that another problem not helping sleep is that I live in lower apartment with neighbors above that randomly walk around in middle of night, waking me even while using earplugs**

[scallywag]

How long have you been taking Ambien?

[Cheryl]

I started on 2.5mg om Monday, November 21st, went right to 10mg Tuesday the 22nd.

I took 5mg once or twice but stayed at 7.5mg.

I took 5mg last night and yes, sweating and restless sleep.

I only get 10 pills and it was refilled today.

 

I want to work with melatonin only.

[scallywag]

So you've been taking Ambien for 2 weeks at varying doses, the highest was 10 mg. You're now taking 5 mg. To reduce by 25% per week you would take

1. 5 mg
2. 3.75 mg
3. 2.5 mg
4. 1.25 mg
5. 0

To reduce by 12.5 %, the doses would be

1. 4.375
2. 3.75
3. 2.125
4. 2.5
5. 1.875
6. 1.25
7. 0.625

[Cheryl]

Thank you!!

[Cheryl]

I went off everthing almost 2 weeks ago because neither improved my sleep. I would be wide awake as soon as they wore off, about 3 hrs after falling asleep.

I am still not sleeping and not functioning well.

This did not happen early in the WD.

I'm going to try inositol now, just waiting for my order.

[Cheryl]

Hi Everyone,

 

Desperate here with the lack of sleep. I posted in my update a bit over a month ago with response from one.

Come Jan 1st I will be 11 mos AD free.

I slept straight through the night around 6-7 hrs with waking to use bathroom and going back out.

 

Since sometime in late October early November the sleep problems started. I have tried everything, including melatonin, ambien,inositol. Nothing helps me stay asleep. 

I am staying with my .25 mg klonopin with chamomile tea at night. I have no problem going to sleep. Now I wake up constantly.

Most nights only 2-3 hrs of solid sleep. The rest is a mix of waking and sleep/awareness state.

 

I have taken up meditation since end of November and practice daily.

 

My result of no sleep--loss of appetite, more weight loss, muscle loss, muscle weakness, hair loss, mental confusion.

I am benefiting from meditation as far as dealing with stress at work. I am trying to create balance in my life with meditation, eating, resting and exercise.

 

I'm thinking of the taurine or glycine now.

Any suggestions please and thank you...

[JanCarol]

Hey Cheryl - 

 

There are a lot of things going on here.  Mostly, can I reassure you that this is, sadly (angrily) "normal" in withdrawal?  You are not going crazy, you are not permanently broken, it's just another phase of symptoms that you are going through.  I'm going to post all of my thoughts, and let you choose which ones sound the most appropriate for you.

 

1.   If you had tapered at 10%, you will still be on 2.82 mg lexapro right now.  This tells me that you are likely still suffering lexapro withdrawal.

 

It may be that 1/2 mg lexapro, yes, 0.5 mg, might ease your symptoms.   (see liquid tapering, below)

 

I know you have been warned against taking any SSRI's - but then they've offered you other awful drugs like lamictal and trileptal, & ambien - and they had no clue about tapering.  So I'm less than confident in your doctors advice, to put it mildly.

 

2.  If you are not taking the same dose every night, you may be kindling.  You took an irregular dose for months, maybe years?   It is vitally important with all psych drugs to take the same dose every night, do not increase or decrease according to "how you feel." Taking erratic doses can contribute to kindling.

 

I see that you dropped your dose from the irregular dose the the 0.25 per night.  This is up to a 50% drop in dose.  I'll refer this to the mods who are more knowledgeable about benzos, and they may ask you to start up a thread in the Members Only Benzo Forum

 

It is possible that this huge drop in your dose is something you are still feeling, 6 weeks later, on top of your Lexapro withdrawals, which can recur a year, sometimes longer, out from your last dose.

 

3.  While klonopin has a long half life, there are some people who get interdose withdrawal within 24 hours of taking it.

This is easy to test.  If you are most anxious just before you take your klonopin, or your symptoms are worse as the day goes on, then this might be the case.

If so - the benzo smart people here (I am not one of them) might recommend splitting your dose.

 

4.   We all need tools to get through these hard times.  When you are clinging by your fingernails is a tough time to put in the CBT tape and believe it.  But when you are not clinging by your fingernails, is the best time to learn new techniques.

 

Usually, at those times when you are hanging by a thread - finding distractions is the most important thing to do - to survive this minute, then the next one.  Make a list and hang it on the fridge.  It might be taking a walk around the block.  It might be a warm epsom salts bath.  It might be a magazine, or a silly (silly is better in withdrawal) TV show, or a movie that you know every line and love to watch.  Post pictures of your cat on www.unitedcats.com.  Talk to other crazy cat owners and maybe pass another hour or two.  Find out what choices calm you down, and which ones rev you up - and choose from the former list.

 

Your book from Baylissa Frederick - that's one of her strong points is moments of comfort and peace for surviving symptoms.  She has given a lot of people here hope and strength, even if her tapering advice is different from ours.  Another one we love here is Claire Weekes.  Dr. Claire Weekes - Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

also:

Non Drug Techniques for Coping with Emotional Symptoms

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9671-intrusive-thoughts-and-increased-panic/

http://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicF.mp3

Rebuilding self-confidence, accepting anxiety

and

Neuro-emotion

 

Neuro-emotions are super strong, super scary emotions, and they seem so real because they seem so true.  But here's the gig, they are really true - except they are the size of a grain of sand.  Unfortunately, in withdrawal, you are given a gigantic Electron microscope and it is strapped to your head, and all you can see is that grain of sand and it seems huge and overwhelming and feels like it's the only thing in existence.  The drug withdrawal literally makes a mountain out of a molehill - and it seems like there is no escape!

These emotions are "stickier" than real emotions, harder to let go, because they are fed by your biochemistry, which is trying to adjust to being without the drugs.

 

I wrote on Skeeter's thread about rumination and neuro-emotions, and there's a dialogue there which I will bold for you - to help you through these:

 

Rumination used to be a part of our survival, when we were living rough - how to protect the children from the bear, where to hunt next, what techniques for hunting work better, was that root really good to eat? - and many other survival items that we would ruminate on, after the sun went down, and talk about with our family or tribe.  It was a key part of learning and surviving.

 

The problem now, is that these survivals are now handled by modern society (when was the last time a bear was seen in your neighborhood?).  But our brains are thinking machines, it's what they do.  

 

So instead, the brain has other things to focus on:  should I have said that?  what did she mean?  I definitely shouldn't have done that!  Maybe I could've done better?  What if I'd said this instead?   These problems are unsolveable!

 

Then, the judgements come in (because the brain is a thinking machine, and you've exhausted all the scenarios, and your emotions are engaged, so you start to judge:  I am such a failure!  All I do is hurt people!  I am a burden to those around me, I am useless!

 

The first step is to disengage the emotions; as you found, the silly children's song is useful for that!

Then - learn to observe the thoughts, back away from judging them.  They are only thoughts, it is only your brain doing what it was born to do.  

 

The images I have used for thoughts are train cars, rattling by on a track.  You can jump on any one of them and go for a journey - but the goal is to let them go by - they are just thoughts on a track.  Let them go by.  As soon as that thought goes by, then another will take it's place.  Your brain is doing it's job.  You can even use the rhythm of the train tracks to tell yourself:  thinking, thinking, thinking.

 

The best way to separate yourself from thinking is to pay attention to your breathing.  When you focus only on your breathing, that connection between your body and the rest of the world - air - inhale, exhale, breathing - then you notice that the thinking is not so important.

 

Another image I have used is clouds.  You can't control thoughts, anymore than you can control clouds.  They come and go as they will, doing what they do.  (The Sound of Music has a line:  "How do you catch a cloud, and pin it down?")

 

The difference between me and a zen master, is that the zen master still thinks, but he has run so many thoughts down that track that his thoughts are more efficient.  He has traced the thought generating mechanism to its source in the brain, and manages to pay attention only to the thoughts which are useful.

 

He still has clouds in his skies, but they are clearer, brighter, and more likely to be productive.

 

or is it more like Neuro-emotion ?  http://survivinganti...ad-doom-horror/

 

If it is the former - then Mindfulness and Acceptance are a key to surviving.

 

Question:  "Did they really mean that the way I heard it?"  Answer:  I am breathing.  That was just a thought.  The thought is a cloud in the sky, a temporary thing.  I am breathing, and the feeling is a cloud in the sky, a temporary thing.

 

If it is the latter - then you know - it is a symptom.

Question:  "Am I a bad, useless person?" Answer:  This thought is a symptom.  My brain is a thought creator, and it is doing it job by creating thoughts.  The thoughts and feelings being created are a part of my healing process.  It is temporary, it will pass.

 

Both issues - rumination and neuro-emotions - are temporary and will pass.  The rumination is easier to unstick with a little effort, while the neuro-emotions will have to be ridden like a wave.  The show must go on!

 

 

More in just a bit....

[JanCarol]

Okay.  Liquid tapering. 

 

This would have made your Lexapro journey much smoother.  Overall, I hope it comforts you to know that you've been lucky.  It could have gone much worse, with your fast taper from 10 to 0.

 

You have noticed that we prefer a 10% of prior dose taper.  But they don't give us the drugs in small enough increments to do this!

 

This will become very important when you choose to taper your klonopin, as it is a very tiny dose, and difficult to split accurately, even with a microgram scale.

 

So - the liquid taper:

 

How to Make a Liquid from Tablets or Capsule

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/235-using-an-oral-syringe-and-other-tapering-techniques/

 

and a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJIEBnZOloY

 

This is the most accurate way to bring your doses down gradually, so that you can sneak the dose out from under your nervous system.

 

You know the way your cat stalks prey?  S/he freezes (holds) in between each movement, hoping that the little creature doesn't notice that s/he's moved.  That's what we're trying to do with the 10% taper - sneak out from under the drugs, so gently that our nervous system doesn't even miss it.

 

This is the way we control symptoms.  It's also a way you can choose when to have symptoms or not.  Your past year has been a wild ride, and most of what you have experienced was not of your own choosing, nor was it necessarily when you wanted it.  A gradual taper allows you to choose when is a good time for you to make the adjustment.

 

Use these links (there will be a lot of links tonight, but you can always find them back here, in your thread) to learn about how to taper using liquid.

[Cheryl]

Thank you!

My guess from what you wrote is yes, likely still in AD wd but for the severe added symptoms with the sudden sleep loss is due to klonopin wd.

 

I am going to guess here that I was at .25 at night and .25 in am with taking .175 as needed, maybe twice in the day.

I reduced to only .25 in the am I am guessing around September 2016 and within 3 weeks went to .175 in am for another month, then a fraction of a quarter for 2-3 weeks before I just dropped that am dose totally, somewhere in October.

This would make sense as to when the good sleep changed.

I don't think updosing the Lexapro is the answer. I am wondering if updosing the klonopin is better.

 

Although, I am open to any suggestions.

[JanCarol]

Hey Cheryl - 

 

Nz11, I was originally diagnosed with depression orior to drug use.

 

Most of us were, that's how we got drugged.

 

But here's the thing, they are now finding that the drugs are less effective than acupuncture, exercise, sunlight exposure, tai chi, meditation, mindfulness - any number of non-drug techniques which have much better long term outcomes and superior side effect profiles!

 

And they find that most depressions - even major ones - clear up with time and attention. 

 

A depression is a chance to look inside.  It's your mind and body shutting down, to tell you that you are doing something which is bad for you.  It may be lifestyle, job, relationships, or maybe you just have internal chatter which is unkind to yourself.  Depression is the opportunity to address that.  It is not a medical condition.

 

What about MDD?  Well you are talking to one; I spent at least 30 years in deep depressive disorder.  It was my default position.  And now?  I never thought it could be like this.  I thought I would always be the Peanuts character with the dark cloud over my head, that was just my fate in life.  But I find that the cloud had a number of causes - toxic relationships, destructive & critical self-chatter, use of wheat and dairy (geez, that goes back to the allergies which started in 1972……), lack of certain B vitamins & minerals - that - with a little help from supplements, a regular exercise program, a cleaner, simpler diet - I am actually thriving!  So it is possible, but it is not a cakewalk.  I must keep to my routine and keep pursuing activities which uplift me, and avoid activities which damage me - and it's a hard discipline (and I'm nowhere near good at it - but persistence counts for a lot!).  So even MDD can be recovered from.

 

and:

Not C/T for me, thank goodness

 

Actually, a fast taper is not too far off from a CT.  Like I said above, if you were doing 10% per month, you would be on 2.82 mg right now - so your body still has some months of adjusting to make.

 

It's water under the bridge, but I point it out to help you understand how all of these different factors are still coming to play in the way you feel today.

 

and:

I am posting an update: As of today I'm in my 9th month post WD from AD. Starting tonight I will only be on .25 mg klonopin.

My windows and waves still exist but waves are to a lesser degree. Still have obsessive/obtrusive thinking, OCDish and nausea with anxiety.

My main concern is my weight loss, which now includes muscle loss. My hip joints and legs ache and my hair is thinning.

 

I had read somewhere in "symptoms" section about adrenal fatigue but there are too many sections to go through. I am certain this is what is happening to me because my cortisol levels are still elevated.

I am planning to have my cortisol levels checked if my doctor will order. Thyroid levels are fine.

Is there anything else I should have checked and does anyone have any recommendations for me? 

 

Ah.  I have a new theory.  I have no "random controlled double blind" trials for this theory, other than what I've seen here again and again.

 

I believe that these drugs work by robbing our endocrine system to "jazz us up" and keep us us going.  They rob the gut, they rob nutrients, and they shift our hormones around and the hormones go wacky.

 

Any tests you take over the next few years might be scary looking - but - after you are out of the withdrawals, you may find that they correct themselves.  For a few of us (I have had 2 endocrine related surgeries) they may not correct back, and will need to be managed.  I find that for managing endocrine that orthomolecular or functional medicine doctors are pretty good, and acupuncture is supportive.

 

Here's the thread you were looking for:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1591-withdrawal-syndrome-vs-adrenal-fatigue/

 

I drink a protein supplement every AM. I am thinking I should increase that to twice daily.

 

Check your protein supplement, some of them are made with fructose.  There is no point having more than 25 g of protein in a serving, that's about all you can digest at any one time.

 

Are you able to take fats?

Fish oil is awesome brain food, and coconut oil is good, too.  I cook almost exclusively with coconut oil, eat fish 2x a week, and take the fish oil, too.  Omega-3 fish oil is good for inflammation, pain management, cognitive function, and it is one of the few supplements we actually recommend here.

 

I don't know, with your surgeries, how your fat absorption is affected, but fat is essential for stable mood and cognitive power.

 

More to come - I see you are posting now, so I'll be back in a bit.

[JanCarol]

Hey Cheryl:

 

I don't think updosing the Lexapro is the answer. I am wondering if updosing the klonopin is better.

 

Though 11 months out for a reinstatement of Lexapro sounds like a long shot - we have had some successes as far as a year or more out from last dose.

 

As I've said before, I'm not a benzo expert, just a middling "repeat what I've heard" sort of mod.  

 

I'm guessing that the last time you changed your klonopin dose was 6 weeks ago?  That may be too far out for a reinstatement of a benzo.

 

I am going to guess here that I was at .25 at night and .25 in am with taking .175 as needed, maybe twice in the day.

 

Oh.  That's not in your signature at all. so what are you taking now?  (I see your sig says 0.25 - 0.5 up to 4x per day - major variability!) Please update your signature to reflect these changes?  It will help you when you go to the benzo forum, too.

 

I reduced to only .25 in the am I am guessing around September 2016 and within 3 weeks went to .175 in am for another month, then a fraction of a quarter for 2-3 weeks before I just dropped that am dose totally, somewhere in October.

 

And then you reported changing to a consistent dose of  0.25 in the evening around Dec 10?  

 

So that's a decrease from 1.0 mg to 0.25 mg from September to December?  Do I understand that correctly?

 

That is a major change, and likely relates to how you are feeling now.

 

Those doggoned Delayed Onset of Withdrawal Symptoms - that's why we like to wait so long in between tapers.  Hold, hold hold is best harm reduction practice!  
I know, the docs decide we need to reduce or go off, and they just rip them out from under us like an unwanted rug, and we're left flailing in the air from the change and momentum of the change.

 

So you are probably in a good position to hold.  In any event hold, until a benzo clever moderator comes and weighs in on your situation.  It sounds like you need to go to the Members Only Benzo Forum and start a thread, that will be the best place to get these answers.

 

Also, I'm still not sure on what to do with melatonin.

 

I'm guessing you got the 3-5 mg melatonin dose that everyone gets?  Too much.  Though I did see something about a 0.375 mcg dose?

 

Anyhow, here's the wisdom from the Self Care forum about melatonin:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/189-melatonin-for-sleep/

 

Here's how to re-establish your sleep cycle with melatonin:

- Start with .25mg-.50mg melatonin for 3-4 days.

- Take at the same time, nightfall (but, given that it's summer, not later than 8 p.m.), every night.

- If needed, gradually increase by .25mg for 3-4 days at a time.

- Use the lowest effective dose.

- Try to turn lights off or keep lights low after sundown. Your bedroom should be quiet and dark. Darkness triggers natural melatonin production. Artificial lighting, including staring into the computer, can give the wrong signal to your pineal gland.

- Keep to a very regular schedule -- this is what your circadian rhythm needs.

- Do NOT take melatonin regularly at any time but nightfall or you might scramble your sleep-wake cycle.

 

and lastly,

 

**I thought it be important to note that another problem not helping sleep is that I live in lower apartment with neighbors above that randomly walk around in middle of night, waking me even while using earplugs**

 

I have this problem with hubby's CPAP machine.  It snorkels and buzzes and makes all kinds of irregular sounds.  I could sleep in another room, except that's where the nice mattress and the climate control is.  You said you listen to binaural beats.  Here's what I do - I have sleep-headphones (got the cheap ones from ebay) and put on meditations, new age boring music, all soft, smooth stuff - or boring lectures - and I use that to distract me from the rattling and shaking going on next to me.

 

This video helped me to feel less alone about my sensitivity and needs in order to sleep.  It's complicated!  Blindfold, bruxism splint, right pillow, right mattress, right temperature, right music, and I can usually fall asleep in under 15 minutes (except for last night.  I got a lot of listening done last night!)

 

 

I hope you can find some things in here to help you, and I hope you see the sun today!  

[Cheryl]

Surgery in 1995 left me with no larger bowel, Crohn's disease. I was given a j-pouch, which is made from small bowel and reconnected to go like the average joe.

Result, malabsorption syndrome. Anxiety started afterward and then the AD and Klonopin began.

 

Somewhere in my thread I mentioned that my gut health changed by 100% since going of AD. All thise years they increased my output and my sodium levels dropped.

I have been supplementing since 1990's and come August this year all my levels were textbook once again. This is another reason why I can't go back on AD.

I do take fish oil twice daily, recently taking avocado oil by teaspoons during meal, including with morning orotein drink. (not above 25mg)

(topical allergy to coconut oil)

I also started magnesium oil since only form by mouth I can tolerate is glycinate.

Result, less migraines.

[Shep]

I started on 2.5mg om Monday, November 21st, went right to 10mg Tuesday the 22nd.

I took 5mg once or twice but stayed at 7.5mg.

I took 5mg last night and yes, sweating and restless sleep.

I only get 10 pills and it was refilled today.

 

I want to work with melatonin only.

 

 

I went off everthing almost 2 weeks ago because neither improved my sleep. I would be wide awake as soon as they wore off, about 3 hrs after falling asleep.

I am still not sleeping and not functioning well.

This did not happen early in the WD.

I'm going to try inositol now, just waiting for my order.

 

 

Hi, Cheryl.

 

I read your PM but am going to respond here on your thread so we're all on the same page.

 

I think you may be dealing with Ambien withdrawal, in addition to the problems with Klonopin, as well as still being prone to waves from your Lexapro and Abilify tapers. You really are doing remarkable in the context that you are still working and you're very articulate about your neuro emotions. We all get those, but it does get better. 

 

Please note that Ambien works on the same receptors in the brain as benzos, and just like with benzos, you can develop a dependency in only two weeks.

 

From the above two posts, you started Ambien on November 21 and came off it two weeks before December 26, which would be the 12th. So that would be 22 days.

 

Please verify if this is correct. Also, please let us know how you tapered off the Ambien.

 

I would advise holding for a long time to let yourself stabilize. Also, as others have mentioned, erratic Klonopin dosing may also be causing you problems. And then the concept of limbic kindling comes into play, which would explain why the Ambien didn't help. Your CNS is simply overwhelmed at this point. Too many drugs, too many changes. 

 

In the meantime, if you haven't already explored the benzo forum, here is some information to read over regarding benzos:

 

Ashton and Beyond in Benzo Tapering

 

Ashton Manual - list of symptoms

 

Please go ahead and start a new thread for yourself in the members-only benzo forum:

 

Members-only benzo forum

 

We can discuss how you'd like to come off Klonopin and try to address any questions you have. 

 

Sending healing vibes your way. I hope you're feeling better soon. 

[Cheryl]

Yes, that is correct wuth the ambien taper. I somewhat followed Scallywag's advice.

 

Yes, fuctioning with working but barely.

I have considered a leave but can't afford it.

I'm still trying to find peace and balance in my life using meditation, exercise but hopefully not lose more muscle.

 

Currently, sleeping with earplugs on blow up camping mat on middle bedroom floor. It's the only place I hear nothing. My heart rate has increased and can feel it in my chest all the time. What's worse is that at night I hear it loud with my earplugs in.

[Shep]

I also deal with noise issues, as I live in a very large housing complex in a large city. So between people, sirens, and periodic fire alarms going off, it can be difficult to sleep.

 

And when I was in acute benzo withdrawal, I had a very extreme startle reflex. I felt like I was literally being electrocuted when a loud noise erupted.

 

I find that Noise Canceling Headphones actually work better for me than earplugs. I plug my headphones into my laptop or cell phone and play guided sleep meditations, gentle classical music, or white noise.

 

I got a really nice pair of Bose headphones on clearance, so you may be able to find a really nice pair in one of the after-the-holidays types of sales, perhaps online. 

 

Just a thought, as I know how frustrating it is to be trapped in an apartment that is loud. 

[Cheryl]

Thank you Shep!

Do I search "noise canceling headphones"?

Are you able to turn over on your side with them too?

And lastly, is there a way to move a portion of this part of my topic into benzo forum without having to retype everything? Should I copy and paste?

I will add an additional paragraph with benzo tspering info.

[Shep]

Thank you!

My guess from what you wrote is yes, likely still in AD wd but for the severe added symptoms with the sudden sleep loss is due to klonopin wd.

 

I am going to guess here that I was at .25 at night and .25 in am with taking .175 as needed, maybe twice in the day.

I reduced to only .25 in the am I am guessing around September 2016 and within 3 weeks went to .175 in am for another month, then a fraction of a quarter for 2-3 weeks before I just dropped that am dose totally, somewhere in October.

This would make sense as to when the good sleep changed.

I don't think updosing the Lexapro is the answer. I am wondering if updosing the klonopin is better.

 

Although, I am open to any suggestions.

 

 

Please keep careful notes of when you are taking the Klonopin. It's possible that an updose may work; however, you are still dealing with Ambien withdrawal. 

 

It's hard to know what dose to recommend, as your Klonopin use is a bit scattered. .25 mg in the morning and .25 mg in the evening, along with .175 mg as needed twice a day is .85 mg. 

 

And now since you're down to .25 mg from .85 mg,  you reduced by .60 mg, which is a 71% decrease from September to your update on November 12. That is a very large decrease. 

 

Two questions:

 

1.  Can you remember a time and dose when the Klonopin did help you sleep? 

 

2.  Sleep must have noticeably gotten worse at the .25 mg dose, since you started the Ambien on November 21.  But how was your sleep prior to November 12 when you posted this update here?

 

Perhaps we can narrow this down and figure out what updose might be the best for you to try. Benzos are very tricky because unlike antidepressants, reinstatements and updosing are less likely to work after 2 weeks. 

 

Here is more on this:

 

Notes on updosing

 

This is actually on reinstating, but it has some good information that could be transferable here, especially the timeline of this working best within a 2 - 4 week window. The same applies to updosing, as well. 

 

Notes on reinstating

 

When you're able, please do start a thread on the Members-only benzo forum. 

[Shep]

Thank you Shep!

Do I search "noise canceling headphones"?

Are you able to turn over on your side with them too?

And lastly, is there a way to move a portion of this part of my topic into benzo forum without having to retype everything? Should I copy and paste?

I will add an additional paragraph with benzo tspering info.

 

Yes, try a google search of noise canceling headphones. You could also try Amazon or you may even find a pair for sale on eBay. 

 

Yes, I am able to sleep on my side. I've been fortunate that I haven't broken them, though! And the ones I have require a AAA battery, so I have to remember to turn them off in the morning. Buying batteries can get expensive, too. But so far, the headphones have lasted 3 years and they're still working. 

 

As far as how to start a benzo thread, just a few words listing your recent medication history will be fine. We can copy and paste other information as needed and we can add to it as you move along with your taper. So nothing formal. 

 

I'll move some of what I've written here onto your new thread once it's started. 

[Cheryl]

 

Thank you!

My guess from what you wrote is yes, likely still in AD wd but for the severe added symptoms with the sudden sleep loss is due to klonopin wd.

I am going to guess here that I was at .25 at night and .25 in am with taking .175 as needed, maybe twice in the day.

I reduced to only .25 in the am I am guessing around September 2016 and within 3 weeks went to .175 in am for another month, then a fraction of a quarter for 2-3 weeks before I just dropped that am dose totally, somewhere in October.

This would make sense as to when the good sleep changed.

I don't think updosing the Lexapro is the answer. I am wondering if updosing the klonopin is better.

Although, I am open to any suggestions.

 

 

 

Please keep careful notes of when you are taking the Klonopin. It's possible that an updose may work; however, you are still dealing with Ambien withdrawal. 

 

It's hard to know what dose to recommend, as your Klonopin use is a bit scattered. .25 mg in the morning and .25 mg in the evening, along with .175 mg as needed twice a day is .85 mg. 

 

And now since you're down to .25 mg from .85 mg,  you reduced by .60 mg, which is a 71% decrease from September to your update on November 12. That is a very large decrease. 

 

Two questions:

 

1.  Can you remember a time and dose when the Klonopin did help you sleep? 

 

2.  Sleep must have noticeably gotten worse at the .25 mg dose, since you started the Ambien on November 21.  But how was your sleep prior to November 12 when you posted this update here?

 

Perhaps we can narrow this down and figure out what updose might be the best for you to try. Benzos are very tricky because unlike antidepressants, reinstatements and updosing are less likely to work after 2 weeks. 

 

Here is more on this:

 

Notes on updosing

 

This is actually on reinstating, but it has some good information that could be transferable here, especially the timeline of this working best within a 2 - 4 week window. The same applies to updosing, as well. 

 

Notes on reinstating

 

When you're able, please do start a thread on the Members-only benzo forum.

I think I was sleeping more sound at .25 at night and .25 sometime in AM...kinda hard to remember now. I was also dealing with my ailing cat, sometimes cleaning up after him in October as well. I had to put him down rt before Thanksgiving, so had added stress/trauma.

I am freaking out a bit about the benzo updosing because of some of the threads I read in Aston manual subject.

At this point I'm desperate. I feel like I'm dying from the inside out sometimes.

All I know is that this sleeplessness has to stop.

[Shep]

I think I was sleeping more sound at .25 at night and .25 sometime in AM...kinda hard to remember now. I was also dealing with my ailing cat, sometimes cleaning up after him in October as well. I had to put him down rt before Thanksgiving, so had added stress/trauma.

I am freaking out a bit about the benzo updosing because of some of the threads I read in Aston manual subject.

At this point I'm desperate. I feel like I'm dying from the inside out sometimes.

All I know is that this sleeplessness has to stop.

 

 

I always take the Ashton Manual with a grain of salt. Her background in addiction medicine was more about "craving" addiction then in "dependency". So she was worried that her patients would crave the drug and that updosing would encourage that particular form of addictive behavior. 

 

We do not hold that same view here on SA.  Alto addresses this and more in the  Ashton and Beyond  thread. 

 

And the Mad in America site has a number of great articles on benzo withdrawal which address the dependency issue, including this one:

 

Don’t Harm Them Twice: When the Language Surrounding Benzodiazepines Adds Insult to Injury (Part I)

 

So updosing is an option that comes with risks, but may be worth trying. The best way to reinstate is to start low, hold a few days, and then weigh your options. 

 

You may want to consider updosing the Klonopin by .125 mg. Because your CNS is very fragile and may be hypersensitive, I would reinstate less than the full .25 mg twice a day that you were on previously when you were sleeping. 

 

If you chose this path, please give yourself 2 - 3 days to adjust and post your updates in the benzo forum area. 

 

I'm sorry to read about your cat. I lost my beautiful shepherd during the acute stage of withdrawal, and it was so incredibly painful. My thoughts are with you. I hope the new year is a much better year for you. 

[Cheryl]

Approximately .125mg would be a half of the .25mg I am guessing?

 

I am going to post in benzo forum with my benzo taper in the signature line.

Should I let you know so that some of this thread can be transferred??