success ☼ elbee: 25 years of meds

[elbee]

I'm pushing, not cushioning I think. I'm currently driving across the U.S. (Florida to Colorado) alone to do a 10 day vision fast in the mountains. My anxiety and depression so far has been really intense. This could be a big mistake of course but I was just feeling like connecting with nature in the mountains might be grounding and restorative. I've never done anything like this before.

 

But I feel like I'm stagnating in Florida. I'm living with my sister, not working and living off savings right now, and the humid climate (particularly the summer months) makes my anxiety worse. Ugh.

 

I'm still holding with my initial 10% drop of Zoloft.

[brassmonkey]

How exciting.  That is such a lovely drive, I hope you don't rush it.  The travel to and from such an event is almost as important as the event it's self.  If you've never done that drive the changes in countryside are amazing.  From the lush subtropical, through the rolling prairie and high desert and ending up in the mountains. It's a spiritual journey all in its self.  Make many short stops along the way to get out and feel the surroundings and become grounded in each local.

 

Do be careful, vision fasts can be very intense and they show you what they show you, which is not always what you want to see.

 

It all sounds like quite the adventure and I'm excited that you're undertaking it.  Please tell us all about it as you go along.

[elbee]

Thanks for your comments brassmonkey. I've driven cross country several times. You're right, there's a lot to take in. My anxiety has been pretty intense on this drive unfortunately. I have made a few stops along the way. I've no clue what I'm in for, or what I might "see." I'm hoping for some clarity and direction, but I'm trying not to have too many expectations.

[Mjau]

Hope you're having a good journey! 

[elbee]

Just checking in. I'm still holding where I've been for a bit now, having a hard time I have some big decisions coming up but planning and decision making is so hard when my anxiety is bad. I lived in Colorado USA for 20 years, moved to Florida USA last year, but not liking FL. Trying to figure out where is best for me while going through this withdrawal process? Can't think and my mind changes from am to pm. So frustrating!

[elbee]

I need help coming up with a comprehensive tapering plan for all my meds. Is that something that can be discussed here or since it includes a benzo should I take this to the benzo forum?

 

Part of what has me confused / discouraged is that I haven't really felt "stabilized" since I got off my meds in 2014 and then went through a whirlwind process with lots of different ssri's and benzos for about 8 months (scrambling my brain in that process I assume). I cans see signatures on my iPhone nor can I find access to edit my profile at all, but I think my dog line is up to date. My last drop was my Zoloft / Sertraline from 150 mg to 135 mg. I have felt like do-do-ca-ca (worse) since I started dropping this time around. In other words, what constitutes "stabilization" to the degree that I know it's time to drop again.

 

I've read so much of the great information on this site so thanks to all that make this information available. I know I'm not the only one going through this, and that helps. But I also know each person is different and has to find what works for them.

 

Please help. I can't do this alone. I feel so stuck and lost. I feel like I need a plan. Thank you.

[elbee]

Ok so I just re-read my whole thread and you guys laid it out for me. Hold and then taper the Sertraline first (10% or less rule). I guess I just feel so dysfunctional right now (as I wrote above) and I'm tired and frustrated and don't feel anywhere close to "stable." So I guess I just continue to hold for now?

[bubble]

Hello Elbee,

I've also just read through your thread and wanted to write what you have just said.

I totally understand your frustration but there is lots of hope and good news. I liked your description of self-care strategies. You are on the right track and all your efforts will bear fruit.

As a way of trying to explain why you are feeling unwell I will just say that you were advised to hold for at least 3 months but you made a cut much earlier. It's hard to believe in the power of holding because it takes so long with ups and downs )windows and waves). But the first time we are patient enough to experience its benefits it becomes a very liberating experience. Mastering the skill/art of holding is key to successful tapering.

Your brain experienced a lot of trauma when you stopped drugs after 25 years of use. This means it will take quite some time to heal. I compare destabilization of the central nervous system to a broken bone. The injury is just as real and the only cure is rest and time. That's why we mentioned 3 months, at least. I will later post an article about brain remodelling to give you a better understanding of the process which should help you with patience and faith.

As paradoxical as it may seem, I don't believe putting coming off of drugs in the center of our lives is productive. We achieve more when withdrawing drifts into the background of our lives. Withdrawing is actually physically growing a new brain after 25 years. It takes time. And getting off the drugs too fast not only doesn't work but turns our lives into a living hell. If we set our goals a bit differently and change our attitude to become one more of a harm reduction we have more chance of a good outcome and a good quality of life while we taper. Well paced taper allows you to live your life and not put it on hold.

The plan you asked for is actually to listen to your body. If symptoms increase you are reducing too much and/or too soon. I believe a change of attitude and goal is also very important. If we see drugs as poison that we want to eliminate from our bodies and stop taking asap this will not be in keeping with the nature of the process. These drugs have become part of the architecture of our brain. So we have to remove them stealthily. The goal: I want to be on as small dose of the drugs as possible has much better chances of succeeding while allowing you to go on with your life.

If you go slow and don't focus all your energies into coming off you have a better chance of completing the process sooner! You already saw (and are still experiencing) that any attempt to rush the process results in ending up on more drugs and higher doses while at the same greately impairing one's quality of life.

I'm not sure how clear I am but let's say you try to forget about drugs for the next 4 months and focus on your well-being in general (maybe it will take more but maybe it will take less). But give it a try.

I will post the article which gives a rationale behind this approach. Difficulty making decisions is yet another symptom of a traumatised brain. But this also improves with holding.

If you start doubting the process, come here and discuss your doubts. Don't cut If you hadn't made that cut in May I believe you would feel more improvement by now. But it's all part of learning. Try to focus on little things that are better instead of being frustrated about general sense of not functioning at the level you are used to. In other words, try to see the glass as half full and enjoy with gratitude all the things you can do. Don't measure your progress from one day to the next or even from one week to the next. Look back at your functioning a month after a hold and I bet you'll see many things improved. This will give you courage, hope, patience and faith in the process.

I hope it helps and let us know how you are doing. (The post in brain remodelling coming soon

Bubble

[bubble]

Rhi with more reasons for a slow taper and treating our nervous system gently:

 

You can't get off the drug (without major instability) faster than your brain can re-adapt itself to the absence of the drug. This involves changes in gene expression everywhere in the system (not a fast process), adjustment of populations of different receptors and cell types, et cetera. These are concrete processes and are not fast.

More to the point, they're also not very reliable and not very efficient. Healing a bone or an organ is one thing; we've had five billion years of evolution to get pretty good at that. Our brains have never before in evolution encountered anything like what these chemicals do to them. The kinds of changes in neurotransmitters that our brains know how to deal with are subtle--things like response to changes in day length, changes due to varying hormones in puberty and pregnancy and with aging, changes due to stressors in the environment, et cetera. We have never encountered ANYTHING like these extremely potent and precisely targeted chemical perturbations.

Our brains do their best to re-establish homeostasis when the drugs are introduced; this requires concrete changes in gene expression, cell populations, etc as above, which continue and change over time, because neuroplastic processes are happening in the brain all the time.

Reversing what the drugs do to them is just as complicated. It's no accident that (according to the Harm Reduction Guide by Will Hall) the single factor that best predicts the success of getting off psych meds is how long a person was on them to begin with. And that's just with a single med. Polydrugging takes the whole thing up to another level.

And when you've been on and off various meds, and on combinations of meds, there's really no telling what's happened, what kind of changes have taken place. Like Alto says (only she says it better)--our nervous systems are not infinitely pliable. Sooner or later something's gotta give.

Hence the need for caution when you start yanking stuff out and shoving stuff around. Ouch. It's your brain. You only get one."

 

Rhi on brain development on meds:

"How fast the drug is out of your system is irrelevant. Your brain has been shaped and modeled around the chemistry that these drugs create. It has grown around the drugs the way a plant grows on a trellis. This happens to people at any age due to normal neuroplastic adaptations, but when you take a growing, developing young brain, I suspect the effects are very deep. Genes that would normally be expressed have been turned off and left dormant, and others have been turned on. Receptors that should have been present, never grew at all. Cells grew differently than they would have without the drug. All of those changes must be gradually reversed, and that's going to take some time.

Rhi on how drugs change our brains/regowing a new brain through tapering

 

A lot of people, including healthcare practitioners; in fact, I guess, most people-- are operating from entirely the wrong paradigm, or way of thinking, about these meds. They're thinking of them like aspirin--as something that has an effect when it's in your system, and then when it gets out of your system the effect goes away.

That's not what happens with medications that alter neurotransmitter function, we are learning.

What happens when you change the chemistry of the brain is, the brain adjusts its chemistry and structure to try to return to homeostasis, or biochemical and functional balance. It tries to restabilize the chemistry. 

For example: SSRI antidepressants work as "serotonin reuptake inhibitors." That is, they cause serotonin to remain in the space between neurons, rather than being taken back up into the cells to be re-used, like it would be in a normal healthy nondrugged brain.

So the brain, which wants to re-establish normal signaling and function, adapts to the higher level of serotonin between neurons (in the "synapse", the space between neurons where signals get passed along). It does this by removing serotonin receptors, so that the signal is reduced and changed to something closer to normal. It also decreases the amount of serotonin it produces overall. 

To do that, genes have to be turned on and off; new proteins have to be made; whole cascades of chemical reactions have to be changed, which means turning on and off OTHER genes; cells are destroyed, new cells are made; in other words, a complex physiologic remodeling takes place. This takes place over time. The brain does not grow and change rapidly. 

This is a vast oversimplification of the amount of adaptation that takes place in the brain when we change its normal chemistry, but that's the principle.

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay.

When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse.

SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. 

It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. 

I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long. 

With multiple drugs and a history of drug changes and cold turkeys, all of this becomes even more complicated. And if a person is started on these kinds of drugs at an early age before the brain has ever completely established normal mature functioning--well, it can't be good. (All of which is why I recommend an extremely slow taper particularly to anyone with a multiple drug history, a history of many years on meds, a history of past cold turkeys or frequent med changes, and a history of being put on drugs at a young age.)

This isn't intended to scare people, but hopefully to give you some idea of what's happening, and to help you respect and understand the process so you can work with it; ALSO, because you are likely to encounter many, many people who still believe these drugs work kind of like aspirin, or a glass of wine, and all you need to do is stop and get it out of your system. 

Now you can explain to them that no, getting it out of your system is not the issue; the issue is, you need to regrow or at least remodel your brain. This is a long, slow, very poorly understood process, and it needs to be respected. 

          .

[brassmonkey]

Hi Elbee-- Thanks for dropping by my thread and commenting on the WDnormal post. It's a rather important concept and I'm glad you understand it.  Here is a copy of that post in case you want to revisit it in the future.

 

I see WDnormal as the overall baseline of where you are in general. The place you are when you're not feeling good, but you're not feeling bad. Sorta a rolling average of the past couple of months between the windows and waves.  Watching the level of WDnormal is a good indicator that things are improving.  Over time you should be seeing a raising of the standard for WDnormal.  So how you're feeling now is better than say six months ago. It changes very slowly but is a really good indicator.

 

 Many people have the idea that stability is feeling good again, when in fact it's feeling the same level of blah day after day with no big swings to the better or bad. When a person does a drop in dose there will be a corresponding increase in WD symptoms over the next few days.  These symptoms will resolve themselves over the following several weeks and return the person to a slightly raised baseline of discomfort. The time frame and severity are dependent on a huge number of factors and end up being unique to each individual.  But the pattern remains.  This is why paying attention to your WDnormal is very important.  It is also referred to as listening to your body.  After a drop in dose and the symptoms have resolved to WDnormal the person then should wait a couple of more weeks to let things really settle out (there are a lot of little unfelt changer still going on) before considering doing their next drop.

 

During that waiting time people may think that they're not doing anything and want to get on with it.  When in fact doing nothing is very proactive.  It's those little unfelt things that need to be finished up before the next step can be taken.  It's letting the glue harden, the paint dry, the cement cure.  The things that need to be complete before the path is safe to walk on again.  If these details are ignored then they start to pile up and compound each other, then somewhere down the line the foundation slips out from under us and the whole thing collapses.

[elbee]

Bubble, thank you so much for taking the time to write all that you did and to provide that additional info! It makes a lot of sense.

 

BrassMonkey, thanks for adding that info to my thread so I can easily find it again.

 

I copied and pasted all that you both wrote into an email to myself so I can access it offline. I'm actually out camping right now but came into town to check messages and touch into this forum. I'm so glad I did. I'll write more when I return to "civilization."

[brassmonkey]

Enjoy the wilderness, nature is the great healer, the more exposure the better.

[elbee]

I continue to read, and learn, and hold. It seems to me that I'm in a situation of being both in protracted withdrawal AND on meds that are mostly ineffective. When I got off the meds in 2014, and then the panic attacks hit (about 2 months after I took my last med), that was protracted withdrawal, right? And then I went on an 8 month chase to try and find something that worked. And I ended up getting rid of the panic attacks for the most part, but with tons of anxiety and depression ... and a foggy brain, impaired memory and cognition, raw and volitile emotions, etc. In a sense I was "reinstating"," but further damaging my brain in the process of trying out many different ssri's and benzos. However, to make matters worse there comes a point when it's too late to reinstate, so I'm thinking I'm in an "in-between" area of protracted withdrawal / quasi reinstatement. And then of course I started cutting the reinstated meds too quickly (before I found this site) as the icing on the cake. Does this scenario sound about right to those of you who have been in this arena a while? And all I can really do is hold and try to let my brain settle and heal, and then begin the slow taper?

 

So ya, today is a major wave day for me.

 

Also, I looked but didn't see a topic or thread about "work." I'm living off savings for the time being (thankfully I have some resources) but it's coming up on two years I haven't worked (had to close my business). I pushed through anxiety and panic to work when I was younger, but I hear stories of how many of you in perhaps even tougher positions than me re taking care of kids, holding down jobs, etc. I've no clue what type of work I can do in this state? Sometimes I think if I didn't have savings I would HAVE to figure something out. What I do know is that I have too much time on my hands, and I'm terrified that what I commit to in a window I won't be able to follow through with when the wave hits. So ya, I think about work a lot (how historically so much of my self esteem has been tied up in my work). I'm sure others have faced this too? And I feel like this entitled snob even writing about these "woes."

[KarenB]

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1941-working-as-in-getting-a-paycheck-through-withdrawal/

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9742-has-anyone-told-their-work-about-their-withdrawal/#entry190655

 

I found these.  It's best to google surviving antidepressants jobs (or whatever you are looking for).  Hope you find something useful there. 

[elbee]

Thank you for the links and tip Karen.

[elbee]

I wrote the comment below on the topic of WORK on another general thread but I'm going to archive it here so I can easily find it again. Feel free to comment here too though. I really struggle with this.

 

---------------------

 

Work (and specifically, not working) is probably what I stress about the most. The crazy part is right now I have savings and I'm fine for a while. But I can feel my anxiety build whenever I start thinking about work (even volunteering). I think my fear is of failing and/or not being able to function at the capacity I have previously. i created and owned a company for 15 years. It did well for a while, then ultimately I had to shut it down. I partly attribute the failure to my decreased capacities (my meds "pooping out,"). There is no way I could operate in the way now that I did then. Confidence? Clear decision making? Leadership? Strategy? Negotiations? I can barely decide how much green there should be in the bananas I buy!

 

I'm just SO scared to be in a position where people are counting on me, because I don't know "which me" will show up day to day, hour to hour. I've found a way to "push through" (both acedemically and professionally) since I first started having panic attacks in college. Maybe the meds worked better before? I "self medicated" with alcohol as a supplement but I quit drinking 2 years ago and I keep that off the table, but perhaps historically that "helped?" I was younger? IDK. I just feel like I don't have the push in me anymore. And I am definitely much more limited mentally and much more emotionally raw / volitile than I was.

 

Is some of this a male / man (U.S.?) thing? My ego keeps saying I need to just suck it up and pull my sh*t together. I see people all around me with who knows what problems and they are working. And my gosh, how some of you push through and do what you do with the symptoms you're experiencing!?!? Again, that inner voice starts shouting that there is SOME type of work I could do, even if it's the type of labor I'm not accustomed to . . . my pride is getting in the way.

 

I've gone on way too long. I'm hoping to get this thread active and hear more from others on how you have dealt with this. Thanks to those of you who have commented previously.

[scallywag]

elbee, I share much of your hesitation about taking on demanding work roles. I think it's a work-world culture that's been shaped by « how men are "supposed" to act.»  Shortly after starting my first professional position at a company with very difficult labor-management relations and one of the most stringent collective agreements, I remember thinking to myself, "Okay, I'll learn to be a hard-a** here."

 

We've also taken on long-standing ill-informed cultural stigmas about mental health symptoms and issues. I find it difficult to shake "the suck it up" and "put on your big boy/girl underpants" contempt I direct at myself even though I know it's inherited thoughts not thinking I've done.

[elbee]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts scallywag. This is an incredibly tough topic for me. I live in a highly competitive culture (U.S.) and I was raised/trained to "win" ... my "okayness" with myself (self esteem) has always been tied to what I do for work. I was born with certain "advantages" that I had nothing to do with (white, male, able-bodied, etc.) and in many ways took this privilege for granted. I was raised Jewish and I'm gay, two things I could be targeted for in my culture ("disadvantages") but I learned to roll with those. I get we don't live in a fair world.

 

And, I've no clue how to put my mental health challenges into a perspective that makes sense to me at a heart, gut and soul level. My anxiety, depression and panic feel SO dibilitating sometimes, I've no clue how I could work like that (even though I know at times I've had to and found a way). And at the same time, there are people in my culture facing extreme challenges and finding ways to work and make a living. There are people all over this planet who fight incredible odds every day just to survive. Since my panic attacks started, I've always found a way to "push through." I'm just so tired at this point I guess. Perhaps the fire isn't hot enough for me to get a second wind? I've got food, housing, a car, medical insurance -- a phone I can use to type this post! From this perspective, the internal "suck it up" messages come through loud and clear.

 

And yet I remain frozen (fight, flight or freeze) with the fear of putting myself out into the world "this way" and failing -- and reinforcing the idea that my worth is lacking.

[scallywag]

elbee, I'm on the same bus as you -- the one that's stuck in some existential or psychiatric snowdrift. I keep trying to find a good way out of the "stuckness," some very small step in a direction I want to go.  I haven't found one that feels steady enough. Yet.

[elbee]

Scallywag, you summed up in a few words exactly how I'm feeling -- "stuck In some existential or psychiatric snowdrift." I too keep looking for small steps (the next best step) and I try taking a few here and there but nothing feels "right" (perhaps as you put it, "steady"). Perhaps that's just how it is at this point -- very little is going to feel "right." But I'm pretty sure I need to continue to look for those next best steps and find it within myself to take at least some of them (much easier during windows, of course, very tough during waves.)

 

After reading your thread, it seems in your healing process you're really good about actively identifying things that might help and then following through and giving them a good try. One thing is becoming clear to me. If I'm not going to look to meds as a silver bullet to address anxiety/panic/depression, I'm going to need to do other things to better take care of myself and hopefully minimize those issues to the extent they exist. Regardless of how much of what I'm currently experiencing is WD related, I'm still going to need to learn how to live my life differently -- continue to make lifestyle changes and learn techniques that positively impact my mental health and well being. Whew, tough stuff!

[KarenB]

One thing is becoming clear to me. If I'm not going to look to meds as a silver bullet to address anxiety/panic/depression, I'm going to need to do other things to better take care of myself and hopefully minimize those issues to the extent they exist. Regardless of how much of what I'm currently experiencing is WD related, I'm still going to need to learn how to live my life differently -- continue to make lifestyle changes and learn techniques that positively impact my mental health and well being. Whew, tough stuff!

That's your turning point right there Elbee!  You're going to be okay.  Write your words in the quote-box there down on paper and stick it on your wall.  You're entire life is going to start feeling better, bit by bit, as you live with this new approach.  And the best bit is, it's come from within you - you wrote the words!

[elbee]

Ya, that actually sounded pretty good! I wish I were that clear minded and decisive more of the time, right now it usually comes around some evenings when I tend to feel better. In the mornings when the anxiety is worst, I still feel like I'm struggling to get out of a net that only gets tighter the more I struggle.

 

I actually have a pretty big decision to make. Long story short, some folks called in some "favors" to arrange for me to have a 2 hour psychiatric evaluation done in NYC by a "prominent" psychiatrist. He heads a psychiatry department at the leading psychiatric school / hospital in the U.S. Aside from the obscene cost, I feel I already know what he will diagnose and recommend. I have PD, GAD, and major depression. And he will prescribe the standard CBT (which I've actually never done), and to either raise my sertraline and/or swap and/or add another ssri/snri (or worse). The rationale will be to first "stabilize" me and then look at the possibility of reducing meds down the road. And why am I even considering this?

 

Probably because I'm still hoping for the silver bullet I say I'm trying to stop hoping for in my quote above.

 

But I still ask myself "What's the harm in meeting with him (aside from the crazy cost) and see what he has to say?" Supposedly he's worked with many folks on who have been on meds as long as I have, maybe he has some good information? Maybe he has worked with someone in my position, found a way to help them stabilize and then in fact get off (or at least greatly reduce) the meds? Maybe he can refer me to a top (and probably very expensive) CBT practitioner to work with there in NYC? He's an expert, right?

 

My gut says get off the meds, change my life -- enough snake oil. Expect to do a lot of work learning how to better take care of myself, and expect discomfort in the WD process. Expect that I will most likely experience "higher than average" anxiety and perhaps even panic attacks the rest of my life, but that perhaps I will learn how to better deal with all that. And know that ultimately I can't predict the future, there will inevitably be good times as well as tough times, and overall it may be much rosier that what I can currently see. Because what's the alternative ... most likely riding a merry-go-round that gets worse over time for the rest of my life?

[KarenB]

You can always go, hear what he has to say, and then choose your own way after that.  The decisions are still yours, even if a doctor 'has spoken'!  Myself, I'd be steering clear of anything like that, but we all have our own paths . 

[elbee]

Today was rough, but overall this past week I had a bit of a window. Was it the 200 mg of magnesium I started taking? IDK but no upset stomach or other apparent drawbacks so I'm going to up the dose to 400 mg tonight (100% daily value).

[elbee]

Today was godawful. Dunno if it was the magnesium increase but I'm dropping back to 200 mg

[downtongirl]

Sorry it was not a good day....what type of magnesium do you take?  I find that magnesium glycinate is calming for me.  

[elbee]

Idk downtongirl, my bottle just says "magnesium 200 mg full range amino acid chelate in herb base". It's by Solaray. Honestly I've never really been ble to tell if supplements are doing anything for me. I seemed to be doing better for a week or so after I started them and then had. Couple of bad days. It could have been that I was feeling good because I was on a 4 day backpacking trip in the mountains (felt good emotionally, physically I was tired and sore). So it just seems like there are always a number of variables going on that can have effects. But a lot of people on here seem to do the magnesium so I thought I'd give it a try. And then maybe I'll add the fish oil which a lot of folks also seem to take. I just didn't want to start two new things at the same time - minimize variables, right? I also take a multivitamin and have for many years that has tons of of the B's.

[elbee]

My sister emailed this to me today, pulled from one of her daily readers. It resonated a lot with me (love my sis!):

 

"Today, I will stop straining to know what I don't know, to see what I can't see, to understand what I don"t yet understand. I will trust that being is sufficient, and let go of my need to figure things out."

 

Actually she emailed me another one yesterday that I like, too:

 

"When first learning how to swim, I didn't trust the deep. No matter how many assuring voices I heard from the shore, I strained and flapped to keep my chin above the surface. It exhausted me, and only when exhausted did I relax enough to immerse myself to the point that I could feel the cradle of the deep keep me afloat.

 

I've come to understand that this is the struggle we all replay between doubt and faith. When thrust into any situation over our head, our reflex is to fight with all our might the terrible feeling that we are sinking. Yet the more we resist, the more we feel our own weight and wear ourselves out. At times like this, I remember learning to float. Mysteriously, it required letting almost all of me rest below, the surface before the deep would hold me up. It seems to me, almost 40 years later, that the practice of finding our faith is very much like that - we need to rest enough of ourselves below the surface of things before we find ourselves upheld.

 

This is very hard to do. But the essence of trust is believing you will be held up if you let go. And though we can practice relaxing our fear and meeting the deep, there is no real way to prepare for letting go other than to just let go.

 

Once immersed, once below the surface, it is not by chance that things slow down, go clear, feel weightless. Perhaps faith is nothing more that taking the risk to rest below the surface. That we can't stay there only affirms that we must choose the deep again and again in order to live fully. That we must move through the sense of sinking before being upheld is what trusting the universe is all about."

 

I was raised Jewish, but lost the "childlike" faith I grew up with over the years. Yet I still know that there is that which has sustained me that feels beyond myself. Is that the same as being "upheld?" All I know is the more I fight all this, the worse it gets. And the more negative and consumed with fear, bitterness, and resentment I become, the less room there is for joy and gratitude in my life. So while I know I can't return to my childhood faith, I try to remain open to some type of faith. I have to.

[elbee]

I went to an ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families) meeting this morning here in Denver, CO, U.S. I moved to Florida over a year ago, and had found this Denver meeting / program before I left. Fortunately there is a strong ACA presence where I moved to in FL and I started going to 3 standard meetings a week and an ACA workbook / step study group. Since I've been "on the road" the last two months I haven't been attending meetings or reading literature (though I have been texting and talking by phone to a few participants). After going to the meeting this morning, I was reminded how important this program is to me, and that regardless of the WD symptoms I'm going through, I still have my own "stuff" to work on that no doubt contributed to my panic attacks and taking the meds in the first place. As I noted on another person's thread, it's clear to me that I'm going through a recovery process of having taken the meds I did for 25 years and now getting off them (WD), AND a recovery process of the underlying issues that the meds (and alcohol use, workaholism, dissociation, etc.) over the years numbed me to and allowed me to ignore for so long. I'm "cracked open" now and it's really tough. I try to appreciate that I'm feeling emotions again, but sometimes it can be overwhelming.

[elbee]

So I just had lunch with my doctor (PA) friend who has been prescribing my meds for me and working with my taper. He suggested I research / consider electric shock therapy. WTF?

[scallywag]

Even the calendar is saying WTF?

[elbee]

Idk scallywag. That comment was just really disheartening. I thought he and I were on the same page and I had some trust with him. As it turns out, while I've been considering a move back to Colorado as I've spent the last two months visiting here, I've decided to head back to Florida at least as a next step. I have an apartment there through next March with my sister who is very supportive, and I'm involved with the ACA 12 step program which I think has been good for me. I'm going to need to find a new doc down there who is fully supportive of me getting off the meds with a slow taper (my current prescriber is just the standard pill pusher). I've check various resources to find a doc to work with in the St. Petersburg / Tampa area but so far no luck. I'll have to keep researching, but of course if anyone can make a referral .... ?

[bubble]

Hello Elbee,

 

wanted to drop you a line for quite some time but never got round to doing it I like the way you think and the way you have turned this experience into a learning process and a true recovery. This is great.

 

I just wanted to add that you don't necessarily have to have a doctor who will be on board with tapering. You just need somebody to prescribe which they do more than readily. Where I live it's impossible to find anyone who would know anything about tapering. It seems things are a bit better over there but might still take too much of your energy and can be horribly frustrating as this talk with your friend showed. I have too much on my plate as it is to educate the medical community in my fragile state so I do my best to avoid them.

 

The best I could find were a few who believe me personally although they first heard about tapering from me

 

I liked what your sister sent you a lot. Attitudes like that turn us into winners.

[scallywag]

elbee -- the comment from your PA friend was absolutely outrageous. It's rotten that we never know when and from whom one of these "just trying to help" but actually thoughtlessly hurtful comments is going to come. 

[apace41]

Elbee,

 

I would not take your friend's comment as an indication of some greater indictment of your situation or condition.  There are MANY people that believe, in light of the FDA's recent "approval" of the use of ECT, that it is a far better tool for treatment of mental health conditions than it was years ago.  The reality is that while it is undoubtedly better than the way it was portrayed in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, that doesn't mean it is something one friend should casually throw out there to another -- nor is it something that most of us should even contemplate. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that you should not take too much away from his comment without knowing whether it was coming from a positive or negative place.  I wouldn't want you to shelve the friendship without knowing what led him to make the comment and what his views are on the subject.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[elbee]

Thanks for your responses folks!

 

Bubble, I've been feeling a bit better overall lately. I think this last hold of about 3 months has been good for me, and I plan to hold again with where I'm at for a while. I have to say, it's easier to be patient when I'm in less pain / distress. (Duh, right?). I am finding openings where some light shines through - perhaps this is why it's called a window? I need to remember to try and stay ahead of the WD curve! I did my most recent drop (less than 10%) in part because 125 mg is an easy dose to hold at, but if I need to reinstate to 135 then I will. And you're right, I don't need a doc to be on the same page with me, but it would be nice. Like when I get to the point of wanting liquid concentrate Sertraline I don't want hassles from my prescriber. The Psych Nurse Practitioner I was working with in FL had no clue I was tapering. I'll have to let her know soon she's fired, just want to find a replacement first.

 

Scallywag and Andi, I've calmed down a bit about that comment that was made. It was said out of wanting me to get to a better place. He has come up with numerous other suggestions (such as genetic testing, trying to treat physiological instead of psychological panic symptoms using meds ... he was trying to be helpful I'm sure. But the comment just felt like it came so far from right field that it scared me. I did research ect and no, it's most definitely not right for me. I guess my point is that I'm working to come off these meds and hope that gets me to a better place. That's what I'm putting my chips down on. Regardless, I'm heading back to FL soon and I won't be working with him anymore. In short, I guess I feel like most people in this world have no clue what we're going through and what we are trying to do. I though thought he did and fully supported the solution I'm pursuing. I guess bottom line is that at this point, what matters most is that I believe in what I'm doing, and I'm glad to have the support of other folks on here who are (or who have been) in the same boat.