success ☼ elbee: 25 years of meds

[rupa]

Dear Elbee,

You have so much courage.

Keep it up.

[elbee]

It seems Brass's quote didn't come over fully in my last post so here is the actual text ...

 

BRASSMONKEY:

 

Andy asked a question about extended holds and this is the explanation I came up with.  Alto asked that it be reposted here.

 

"At the risk of being irritating (something I do well), I ask the following in all honesty as I've never really understood something about holding.  If one first notices a "problem" from the med (benzo or a/d) in the nature of "poop out" or "tolerance", i.e., you are still on the drug and not feeling  better, how does that tie into the concept of "holding".  In other words, if you are having a problem with the med of that nature it would seem that no amount of holding is going to help you.  If that is the case, why is it different when we are tapering?  Doesn't the notion that holding will help assume that we have cut too far too fast and that we are waiting for enough receptors to "upregulate" so that we achieve some level of homeostasis and therefore will feel better?  

 

I am genuinely confused about how these things fit together and any insights are welcome.

 

Best,

 

Andy"

 

 

You basically have the idea Andy, but I'll give a long winded explanation anyway. They're two different but similar situations. Different in the mechanics behind them, but similar in the symptom presentation (sorta).  

 

It all stems from the body being a self correcting homeostatic organism. It's designed to work with a specific balance of neurotransmitters and will do anything in its power to maintain that balance.  Taking an AD causes some the receptors for a specific neurotransmitter to stop working which floods the body with that NT and supposedly makes us feel better because of the excess.  After a while the body finds ways around this and works to regain homeostasis.  When the struggle for control that ensues becomes acute it is known as tachyphylaxis, or poopout.  In order to "cure" it, there must be a clear winner, leaving two options. Updose or taper.  To hold during poopout would only prolong the struggle, and might make things worse as the body continues its fight for control.  

 

By updosing the drug is declared the winner, the symptoms subside somewhat and you continue on, but the body continues to fight.  If a person tapers, the body is declared the winner, repair work is started on the body and the symptoms subside.  BUT, it takes a long time to undo the physical changes the drug has made and the drug is required to maintain those changes while the damage is being repaired. Thereby necessitating a long slow taper.

 

The third time I entered poopout I was there for at least two if not three years and the symptoms continued to get worse as time passed.  The other two times I updosed relatively quickly and the symptoms subsided somewhat, but eventualy poopout returned requiring another updose.  Once I started to taper it took six months to a year for my body to figure out that it was winning and the symptoms to start to decrease.

 

While a person is taking an AD the body struggles to maintain homeostasis and accepts the presence of the drug.  The body establishes a pseudohomeostasis incorporating the presence/effects of the drug allowing it to function somewhat normally. Because of the pseudohomeostasis the body requires the drug to work. If the drug is rapidly removed for some reason (drug change, fast taper, CT) this new pseudohomeostasis is upset, the original homeostasis remains upset and the body goes into chaos not knowing how to function.  

 

By nature the original homeostasis is hardwired into the body and the body tries to return to that state.  But the poor body has a monumental task of sorting out what is hardwired and what is drug modified.  The purpose of an extended hold is to allow the body to sort out the damage and catch up with its repair work.  As the repairs are made the body can return to "normal function" and the symptoms start to decrease.  The symptoms can decrease to the point where in comparison we start to feel fine.  However, there is still a lot of repair work that needs to be done in the background.  If that background repair work is ignored and a taper started, the affects of the taper add to the workload already in place and will eventually throw the body back into chaos. Bringing on a resurgence of acute symptoms.  This make it imperative that an extended hold be continued well past the point of feeling good again. 

 

BTW honest questions are never irritating.  We're dealing with an amazingly complex subject with nuances's that we haven't even imagined yet.  This is how we'll scratch the surface.

[elbee]

Scallywag and Rupa, thanks for your kind, supportive words.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Elbee-- I'm sorry to hear that you're getting hit so hard.  Quite frequently the worst waves are followed by some really strong healing.  Hang tight and things will get a lot better.

 

(((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))

 

Brass

[apace41]

Elbee,

 

As others have said, you have made incredible progress to date.  In just 18 months you have dropped Remeron, cut out 3/4 of Klonopin and cut Zoloft in half.  That is a huge accomplishment!  HOWEVER (there is always a however), that is a lot of change to the brain in a relatively short period of time.  Frankly, I consider it a minor miracle that you have not been hit prior to this.  I am highly confident that the current wave is a direct result of the cumulative speed of the taper.  Now is the time to let your brain and body catch up for a while -- a good while -- and pay heed to BrassMonkey's post regarding holding.  

 

Give yourself a chance to get back to your baseline, spend some time taking care of yourself, and you will be back on course to continue the taper.  If you remain smart about the process you will be fine.  

 

Best,

 

Andy

[bubble]

Hang in there Elbee!

 

Who was the first to warn you about speeding... but you will ride it out.

 

My brain is very tired so I'll be uncharacteristically brief. You don't have to put your life on hold while you are tapering (nor rush your taper so that you could get on with your life). 

 

If we taper slowly we can work and live our lives relatively uninterrupted as we taper. It is actually good to have some distraction and not focus all of our attention on watching how the taper is progressing with glacial speed.

 

This is the time to practice all your coping skills. If the waves get too rough you can even updose. Something.

 

When we are doing well we feel very confident and even arrogant and feel like we don't have to stick with the rules and that we will get away with it. That's why I felt rather uncomfortable explaining why it is actually important to be familiar with what is causing what during the taper.

 

True, regardless of the cause we will just have to deal with it all. But knowing the cause will tell us what to do when things get too rough.

 

Last time I was speeding it took me some nine months to recover. Going too fast only slows us down.

 

I'm sorry I'm sounding so "I told you so" ...

 

I hope things don't get too rough. I had very similar DP/DR hard- to-describe panic attacks. Very scary stuff. But as everything, it abated. However, it took a while. It was so bad I thought I wouldn't be able to work ever again. I couldn't hold a conversation for 10 mins or my brain would go into overdrive and explode in DP/DR panic.

 

I'm glad you wrote here when you were in a window because you now have a reminder of what a real you is like. It's not what you are going through now.

 

I found Mooji very helpful, calming and reassuring during that period.

 

It seems I wasn't brief after all

 

I hope this treats you mildly...

 

 

[elbee]

Just checking in, alive and kicking! Continuing my hold through at least August . . . and thinking longer than that. The DP/DR has mostly backed off a bit thankfully. I've been "distracting" more, and for now I'm mostly fine with that (Netflix, and I got some legos for one of my "inner kids"). I'm starting to better identify when I'm falling into what I'll call a "shame spiral" and I've found best is to try and move "towards it" . . . get to an old emotional place (past) and let that out, love, and accept. I'm also starting to better differentiate this "shame spiral" from what I'm calling "spinning" which just feels like my mind trying to "figure shi* out" and caught up in (future) catastrophizing. This latter, being "in a spin," is not productive at all, so that is when I distract, try to confront the thoughts and/or see if there is an old trigger (feeling/memory) I can identify driving it.

 

So ya, that's today

[elbee]

Held August, been feeling overall a bit better, less "panicky"/dp/dr. Decided I'm going to continue holding for September, and evaluate again at the end of the month.

[elbee]

Hey just checking in. I've been holding now for over 4 months and overall I've been feeling quite a bit better . . . lots of emotional release, less anxiety overall, and no "panic"/dp/dr episodes for some time now. I've also continued my emotional / psychological / spiritual healing work and I feel I've "cleared" a lot of stuff. I know this will be a lifelong process, and I also know I've gone deep and released a lot of shame. It really does feel like I'm coming out of a dissociated state I've been in for most of my life, both natural dissociation techniques I learned early on, and then supplemented with these meds, alcohol, and other numbing and distracting behaviors. 

 

I'm going to continue with the standard 10% taper plan on the benzo and if all goes well, take that to zero. I think the "dual taper" worked well overall, but I pushed it too hard. At this point, my instinct says to get off the clonazepam first so that's how I'll be moving forward.

[ChessieCat]

Hi elbee,

 

That's great that you are doing well.

 

Please read this topic before deciding which drug to commence tapering:

 

From Important topics in the Tapering forum and FAQ:

 

"Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?
If you're not having an adverse reaction from the other medications, taper the most activating drug first. This is usually an antidepressant or stimulant (ADHD drug)."

[elbee]

Hi Chessie, thanks for your reply. I do know that this website suggests tapering the most "activating drug first" which "is usually an antidepressant." I'm not sure in my case, at this point, which drug is the most "activating." I've researched/studied this stuff quite a bit, but I don't think there is really a definitive answer, and I'm not even sure in my case it matters all that much. More than anything, I just have to go slow and try to listen to my body, and include that info as a vital part of the decision. Overall, I trust the information on this website more than any other information available. Yet at this juncture, my gut is strongly saying get off the benzo first, so that's what I'm going with. 

[Nikki74]

Hi Elbee, I found myself reading your thread and gained a lot from it - both your own insights and experience and the comments of the mods - though I’m sorry for what you’re going through. 

 

I’ve been extremely ill for 6 months which is when a series of cts and changes commenced and I’ve been holding for 3 months on 2 ads and a benzo hoping in time I’ll stability enough to start a slow taper of one of them! I too hate being on a benzo. But I have been getting hours here and there of improvement, then it’s like I’m back to square one! 

 

How are you doing? 

[elbee]

Hi Nikki, thanks for dropping by!   And hello all . . .

 

I haven't been on here for a bit, and life continues to be a very intense ride at times. AND, it's been a lot less intense at times too and I'm grateful for that. Dare I say I'm actually experiencing genuine gratitude and inklings of joy at times!?!? I'm continuing with my microtaper of the clonazepam and I'm down to about .35 mg (from 2 mg at the highest dose). I've been working with my sleep lately which has been tough for as long as I can remember, but I'm finding some things that seem to be shifting. In short, my participation with Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (ACA) and approaching what is happening with me to include the context of healing both from the psych med trauma and the original childhood & adolescent trauma makes more and more sense, and I'm seeing good results overall.

 

I still hit very tough spots. Yesterday I hit a major "funk." I was stuck in some of my 14 year old stuff (using the language from the ACA framework) and none of the new tools / techniques I've learned worked. And sometimes, its just like that. BUT, I really do feel like I had at least some sense of what was going on, what triggered me, and I had a general framework for what I needed to do to take care of myself. And I pulled out the funk late afternoon. The "funks" happen less frequently, generally go less deep, and usually last less time. I'm learning to listen to my "kids" (the different aspects of myself) and the communication language are sensations in my body and emotions (still sometimes very intense). I've spent my whole life running from that . . . numbing, dissociating, etc. And sitting with all of that and allowing it to come through full force has been the most painful experience of my life. AND, it's evolving. Another member here wrote that she was still experiencing DP/DR, but that it was now somehow different from a full blown panic attack. That is very much what seems to be going on for me. In general, the more I allow my full range of emotions to come through, the less anxiety I have. Hmmm! And I'm becoming less scared of the DP/DR . . . to me, I experience them as my "younger parts" communicating with me and that I need to stay with myself and pay attention because I've been triggered. Even though it may not seem like it, some parts of me feel they are "protecting" me . . . I just have to learn to speak their language . . . kid language.  It's like recognizing "new" parts of myself that have been there all along, but that I abandoned long ago. I know the idea of "multiplicity" sounds crazy to some folks . . . people having different "parts." But it really can be as simple as we find in our everyday language: "Hey, what do you want to eat for dinner? I dunno, a part of me wants pizza and a part of me wants Mexican."  Dissociation, I believe, is all on a continuum . . . with the far end of the spectrum being Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) . . . thankfully, I never "split" to that extreme. 

 

The taper is always a factor, no doubt. But I also believe that I have to address what originally caused me to have the panic attacks 27 years ago. From my perspective, I've been carrying it with me in my subconscious for 40+ years, and freedom will only come by walking through the fear . . . by not running from it or dissociating it into non existence. And to do that, I HAVE to be fully conscious and not drugged (nor engaging in numbing or dissociating behaviors). I have to NOT ABANDON MYSELF.

 

I really see getting off the meds as part of a larger picture of becoming more fully conscious. I genuinely believe that my brain has structured itself around these drugs, and I have to go slowly to get off and allow my brain to heal. I fully subscribe to this website's approach to healing from these chemicals. AND, I've also quit drinking alcohol, quit nicotine, quit drinking caffeine and I've had to withdraw from these chemicals too. AND I've become much more conscious of my BEHAVIORAL medicators -- reaching for the shelves of the "internal drug store" -- people pleasing, rescuing other people, achievement/heroism, workaholism, codependency, "performing," video games, the internet, money / materialism . . . gees, I can use ANYTHING as a behavioral medicator including meditation and my recovery! "Watch me, look how well I'm meditating . . . and look, I can get off these meds faster than everyone else . . . I'm a SUPER HEALER."  As I learn what to look for, I can step back and watch the craziness which has been my life . . . the "defenses" I learned very early in life in order not to face the reality that was my childhood. 

 

I may have shared this metaphor before, but I see my recovery process like both pushing on the gas and letting off the brake at the same time. Pushing the gas is the psychological / trauma / ACA work . . . digging deeper and deeper and not running away . . . feeling what I've been running from my whole life and not running, going inside. And easing off the brake is my med taper and other "withdrawal" . . . bringing an end to a chemical "solution" that spun out of control and eventually failed (along with the behavioral "defenses") resulting in the collapse of my life. And to whatever degree the psych drugs worked, it was always just a supplement to numbing my whole physiological system even more than I learned to do naturally as a kid (behaviorally and psychologically). And BECAUSE I took the meds for 27 years, I have extra healing to do now, and I have to face the heavy lifting of now exercising the "muscles" that the drugs "helped" to paralyze. In all honesty, I think the slow med taper allows not only our brains to heal, but gives us time to build up the behavioral muscles (and brain correlates) that the meds helped to atrophy. 

 

I could rant on about all this forever (and I do offline), but for here, that's my take as of the beginning of 2018!

 

Happy New Year Kids . . . cheers to our health! 

 

[AliG]

9 hours ago, elbee said:

I may have shared this metaphor before, but I see my recovery process like both pushing on the gas and letting off the brake at the same time. Pushing the gas is the psychological / trauma / ACA work . . . digging deeper and deeper and not running away . . . feeling what I've been running from my whole life and not running, going inside. And easing off the brake is my med taper and other "withdrawal" . . . bringing an end to a chemical "solution" that spun out of control and eventually failed (along with the behavioral "defenses") resulting in the collapse of my life. And to whatever degree the psych drugs worked, it was always just a supplement to numbing my whole physiological system even more than I learned to do naturally as a kid (behaviorally and psychologically). And BECAUSE I took the meds for 27 years, I have extra healing to do now, and I have to face the heavy lifting of now exercising the "muscles" that the drugs "helped" to paralyze. In all honesty, I think the slow med taper allows not only our brains to heal, but gives us time to build up the behavioral muscles (and brain correlates) that the meds helped to atrophy

 

Elbee. Well done ~ this is so true and such a good analogy. Thank you for updating and I hope you continue to let us know how you are doing throughout this. Of course there will most probably continue to be windows and waves : that's to be expected.

 

How is your taper going and is your signature up to date?

[Petunia]

Hi Elbee, your comment on my thread brought me here to read yours. We are on a very similar journey, main difference is that I stopped the drugs too fast, crashed and now work my recovery mostly from my bed/room/house. But you have remained relatively stable, due to careful tapering and are much more physically functional.

 

You've come a long way, well done. Developing self insight and facing our own truth can be very difficult when we come from a childhood of trauma, neglect and abuse. Layers of protection we have built up over the years, for our own survival have to be gently peeled away, hopefully gently, sometimes they come away too fast, no matter how gentle we try to be.

 

Fully facing the reality of our lives can be shocking and so difficult to process, but having to do it while sensitized by tapering and in withdrawal can make it even more challenging. But I'm not sure if there is a perfect time to heal from our pasts, I think it happens when we are ready to face it, or when there is no other choice.

 

I like what you wrote, somewhere in your thread about trust. I'm also learning to trust myself first, above everything and everyone. I used to think that the reason I had problems trusting people was because I couldn't trust my parents, that may be true, to an extent, but if we are also taught that we can't trust our own feelings and perceptions, then we can never be sure of anything or anyone.

 

I'm a little envious of your ability to get out there to all the meetings and retreats. Your adventure across the country a while back sounds like it was a wonderful experience, would love to have read more of what you learned and your insights. I'm like Bubble in that there is nothing near where I live like the ACA meetings you go to. But I have done groups and workshops related to abuse and recovery, while still medicated, before I stopped too fast and crashed. Online help is great, and certainly better than nothing, but I long for the day I'm well enough to get back out there in the world and feel the support of other people one on one. I think it will be a very different kind of experience un-medicated. I didn't realize just how numbed out I had become until I stopped.

 

If there's one thing I want to emphasize, its please stick with the slow, careful tapering. I didn't have a choice because I didn't know any different, but you have the benefit of this great site and all the information. Being drug free might lure you like the proverbial carrot, but in reality its just another step along the way and only part of the larger recovery journey. Treasure your ability to still function, stability is something to hold onto. I would give anything to be able to go back in time and know how slowly I needed to taper. Actually I would rather have never started on these drugs in the first place, but second to that, slow tapering.

 

Thanks for posting on my thread, wishing you continued recovery for 2018.

[elbee]

Thanks for your replies AliG and Petunia

 

AliG, yes my signature is up to date, I did my last drop on the last day of last year. I'm "microtapering" now I guess is what it's called on just the clonozapem and I'm holding on the sertraline. I drop just a bit each week, which at the rate I'm going, does add up to a rate slightly faster than the 10% recommended. However, I also skip weekly drops if I'm starting to feel shaky. I realize that this can catch up with me down the road, and I've encountered that before and then had to do longer holds, so I keep learning not to push the taper too hard. 

 

Petunia, thanks for sharing your thoughts, experience and insights. I think I'm still paying the price of getting off the drugs too fast (over a three month period in 2014), and then going through a brutal reinstatement in 2015. I never really got to a "good" place with the reinstatement, and I was on way more drugs than I ever had been. Combine that with stopping drinking alcohol and caffeine in 2014, stopping nicotine in 2015, and withdrawing from tons of behavioral medicators during that time (workaholism, codependency/relationship, people pleasing, etc.) and ya, that was all way too much way too fast. And of course, my answer was to find a way to get back up on that horse, right? So I pushed, even my recovery. Was that road trip I took in the summer of 2016 a good idea? It's hard to say or even evaluate it on those terms. I was having panic attacks and freaking out, and I head out to go face myself in the world and the wilderness? Not so gentle. BUT, it seems that was my path. I learned from that experience, no doubt.

 

I love your emphasis on "gentle." It's so hard to be gentle in this world we live in until sometimes we are forced into a position where gentle is the only path left. At least that's what it seems my path keeps leading me to . . . and of course I still resist gentle. But I'm learning, and practicing and I know things are shifting and I'm developing new skills. I'm also recognizing that even while I can make my outside world more gentle, my inside world can still be pretty brutal at times. This is harder to see,  but probably more important to learn to work with. And yes, the experience of learning to live "unnumbed" and "undistracted" (not dissociated) can be completely overwhelming at times. My senses and emotions can feel like they are on overdrive! All of this is the stuff I've run from my whole life. My "muscles" to deal with it all have atrophied. It will take time. Sometimes I'm in a place of more of acceptance of this, oftentimes less so.

 

And yes, learning to trust myself is so pivotal. It's the foundation of how I learn to be safe in this world (speak my truth, set boundaries) and in turn, how I learn to trust others. I had been told by a significant person in my life that I had "trust issues." And I did. And it turns out that my "issues" were that I was trusting people (like this particular significant person) that were not trustworthy. And for me, the roots of this stuff really is based in childhood (for me anyway). I had parents that were oftentimes not physically around, but when they were physically around they were still not "there." They were perhaps intermittently attuned to me at best. My little boy "attachment" system got cross-wired with my little boy "flight or fight" system and that is not a recipe for learning how to trust oneself or others in the world. Healing this and the fallout defense mechanisms, building a life around developmental "insecure attachment," will be a part of the rest of my life. And the withdrawal from 27 years on these "medications" just makes it all more complicated. It really is hard to be justifiably angry and not fall into the immobility of cynicism. I think it's all part of the process of grief.

 

So anyway Petunia, I'm not as "fully functional" as I want to be or hope to be, but I think at this point, limitations might be my greatest asset regardless of how frustrating they are. Today was tough, some days are. I couldn't get out today, and I slept a lot, and I used my massage tool, and I drank lots of water . . . I did better with this today than I have in the past. AND, I'm becoming more resilient as I learn to nurture, be gentle with, and further trust and protect the most vulnerable and valuable parts of myself. 

 

Thanks for your courage Petunia . . . your journey inspires me!

[elbee]

When the conscious mind cannot find a reason to say no, the unconscious says no in its own way. -- Charles Eisenstein, Sacred Economics: Money, Gift and Society in the Age of Transition

[scallywag]

I'm saving that quotation for regular review. Thanks, elbee!  It's good to read your carefully considered insights, as always.

[elbee]

Some good stuff in this article if you are interested (some of it "eh, commercialized"). Here are are the cliff notes (excerpt) on what I find to be most "pithy" . . .

 

In its official statement for World Health Day in 2017, the United Nations reviewed the best evidence and concluded that “the dominant biomedical narrative of depression” is based on “biased and selective use of research outcomes” that “must be abandoned”. We need to move from “focusing on ‘chemical imbalances’”, they said, to focusing more on “power imbalances”.

 

After I learned all this, and what it means for us all, I started to long for the power to go back in time and speak to my teenage self on the day he was told a story about his depression that was going to send him off in the wrong direction for so many years. I wanted to tell him: “This pain you are feeling is not a pathology. It’s not crazy. It is a signal that your natural psychological needs are not being met. It is a form of grief – for yourself, and for the culture you live in going so wrong. I know how much it hurts. I know how deeply it cuts you. But you need to listen to this signal. We all need to listen to the people around us sending out this signal. It is telling you what is going wrong. It is telling you that you need to be connected in so many deep and stirring ways that you aren’t yet – but you can be, one day.”

 

Actual article link: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/07/is-everything-you-think-you-know-about-depression-wrong-johann-hari-lost-connections

[apace41]

Great post, elbee.  If only that thought process could be the one that prevails in the treatment of people who are "struggling" with any emotional/mental/psychological challenge.  Unfortunately, too many people have too much invested in the current model for this to change in any way other than at glacial speed.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[rafatennis]

On 1/2/2018 at 11:02 PM, elbee said:

Hi Nikki, thanks for dropping by!   And hello all . . .

 

I haven't been on here for a bit, and life continues to be a very intense ride at times. AND, it's been a lot less intense at times too and I'm grateful for that. Dare I say I'm actually experiencing genuine gratitude and inklings of joy at times!?!? I'm continuing with my microtaper of the clonazepam and I'm down to about .35 mg (from 2 mg at the highest dose). I've been working with my sleep lately which has been tough for as long as I can remember, but I'm finding some things that seem to be shifting. In short, my participation with Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (ACA) and approaching what is happening with me to include the context of healing both from the psych med trauma and the original childhood & adolescent trauma makes more and more sense, and I'm seeing good results overall.

 

I still hit very tough spots. Yesterday I hit a major "funk." I was stuck in some of my 14 year old stuff (using the language from the ACA framework) and none of the new tools / techniques I've learned worked. And sometimes, its just like that. BUT, I really do feel like I had at least some sense of what was going on, what triggered me, and I had a general framework for what I needed to do to take care of myself. And I pulled out the funk late afternoon. The "funks" happen less frequently, generally go less deep, and usually last less time. I'm learning to listen to my "kids" (the different aspects of myself) and the communication language are sensations in my body and emotions (still sometimes very intense). I've spent my whole life running from that . . . numbing, dissociating, etc. And sitting with all of that and allowing it to come through full force has been the most painful experience of my life. AND, it's evolving. Another member here wrote that she was still experiencing DP/DR, but that it was now somehow different from a full blown panic attack. That is very much what seems to be going on for me. In general, the more I allow my full range of emotions to come through, the less anxiety I have. Hmmm! And I'm becoming less scared of the DP/DR . . . to me, I experience them as my "younger parts" communicating with me and that I need to stay with myself and pay attention because I've been triggered. Even though it may not seem like it, some parts of me feel they are "protecting" me . . . I just have to learn to speak their language . . . kid language.  It's like recognizing "new" parts of myself that have been there all along, but that I abandoned long ago. I know the idea of "multiplicity" sounds crazy to some folks . . . people having different "parts." But it really can be as simple as we find in our everyday language: "Hey, what do you want to eat for dinner? I dunno, a part of me wants pizza and a part of me wants Mexican."  Dissociation, I believe, is all on a continuum . . . with the far end of the spectrum being Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) . . . thankfully, I never "split" to that extreme. 

 

The taper is always a factor, no doubt. But I also believe that I have to address what originally caused me to have the panic attacks 27 years ago. From my perspective, I've been carrying it with me in my subconscious for 40+ years, and freedom will only come by walking through the fear . . . by not running from it or dissociating it into non existence. And to do that, I HAVE to be fully conscious and not drugged (nor engaging in numbing or dissociating behaviors). I have to NOT ABANDON MYSELF.

 

I really see getting off the meds as part of a larger picture of becoming more fully conscious. I genuinely believe that my brain has structured itself around these drugs, and I have to go slowly to get off and allow my brain to heal. I fully subscribe to this website's approach to healing from these chemicals. AND, I've also quit drinking alcohol, quit nicotine, quit drinking caffeine and I've had to withdraw from these chemicals too. AND I've become much more conscious of my BEHAVIORAL medicators -- reaching for the shelves of the "internal drug store" -- people pleasing, rescuing other people, achievement/heroism, workaholism, codependency, "performing," video games, the internet, money / materialism . . . gees, I can use ANYTHING as a behavioral medicator including meditation and my recovery! "Watch me, look how well I'm meditating . . . and look, I can get off these meds faster than everyone else . . . I'm a SUPER HEALER."  As I learn what to look for, I can step back and watch the craziness which has been my life . . . the "defenses" I learned very early in life in order not to face the reality that was my childhood. 

 

I may have shared this metaphor before, but I see my recovery process like both pushing on the gas and letting off the brake at the same time. Pushing the gas is the psychological / trauma / ACA work . . . digging deeper and deeper and not running away . . . feeling what I've been running from my whole life and not running, going inside. And easing off the brake is my med taper and other "withdrawal" . . . bringing an end to a chemical "solution" that spun out of control and eventually failed (along with the behavioral "defenses") resulting in the collapse of my life. And to whatever degree the psych drugs worked, it was always just a supplement to numbing my whole physiological system even more than I learned to do naturally as a kid (behaviorally and psychologically). And BECAUSE I took the meds for 27 years, I have extra healing to do now, and I have to face the heavy lifting of now exercising the "muscles" that the drugs "helped" to paralyze. In all honesty, I think the slow med taper allows not only our brains to heal, but gives us time to build up the behavioral muscles (and brain correlates) that the meds helped to atrophy. 

 

I could rant on about all this forever (and I do offline), but for here, that's my take as of the beginning of 2018!

 

Happy New Year Kids . . . cheers to our health! 

 

Elbee, I see so many of your comments very similar to my own experience, thanks for putting them in writing, I've been involved with ACA and Al-Anon as an adult child of an abusive alcoholic and too experienced the panic and fear in my late 20's and was put on anti-depressant but still had no skills to start working on the behavioral issues, I got married went on with life coping as ACA'S do by striving to achieve, people please etc and crashed again in my late 30's and was not only put back on anti-depressant but they added Klonopin to the mix, I've also known as you stated that to fully heal and be conscious of my progress I needed to feel to heal so I've embarked on multiple attempts to get off these meds, I'm now on a plan that is getting me there but as you said it is a combination of avoiding behavioral acting out in other ways while we manage the med withdrawal. My connection with God is helping me to address those. I appreciate you writing about your story, I think my med signature should be visible when I hit reply, please write back if you have any other comments, I've been on varying doses of these two meds for about 20 years and as you do understand that my brain has to neurologically adapt to the drops and being without them.

[elbee]

Hey Rafa, I replied on your thread.

[elbee]

Check out Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of Depression – and the Unexpected Solutions by Johann Hari

 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34921573

 

I should receive my copy tomorrow, looking forward to reading it!

[apace41]

12 hours ago, elbee said:

I should receive my copy tomorrow, looking forward to reading it!

 

Right there with you, Elbee.  I'm about 2/3 of the way through it (listening to it on Audible on my commute and in the gym, etc.).  It's very well done.

 

I know that our moderator, Shep, has just finished the book as well.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[elbee]

Hey Andy, I started reading the book. I'm really appreciative that a book like this (debunking the "chemical imbalance" bs) is out there. But LORDY, the way Hari writes you would think he himself has discovered what almost no one else has known through his own "research" and is not on track to save civilization with the 9 "causes to depression" that he has assembled. Does it really take an ego this huge for the truth to get out? I'm trying to own my own projections here, but WHEW!

[elbee]

I hit a pretty cool milestone . . . down to 0.25 mg of Clonazepam. This is 1/8 of where I was with the drug at the high point of 2 mg per day in 2016. I'm also only taking the Clonazepam as a night dose now (changed that a few months ago) instead of 1/2 dose am and 1/2 dose pm. I feel good about getting to the point that I do NOT  have to start my day off with a tranquilizer. Getting off the meds (as well as booze, caffeine, nicotine and addressing behavioral medicators) been a slow, tough process so far and I still have a ways to go, but let's celebrate the positive milestones, right?  

[apace41]

26 minutes ago, elbee said:

I hit a pretty cool milestone . . . down to 0.25 mg of Clonazepam.

 

Congrats, elbee! Great stuff.

 

Most importantly, how are you feeling?
 

Best,

 

Andy

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, elbee said:

Getting off the meds (as well as booze, caffeine, nicotine and addressing behavioral medicators) been a slow, tough process so far and I still have a ways to go, but let's celebrate the positive milestones, right?

 

It's worth it.  Yes, let's celebrate!!!

[elbee]

BENZO JUMP. 

 

I went down to .2 mg of the clonazepam on 4/1/18. Something inside me (my body) told me this last Saturday 4/7/18 it was time to jump, so I did (I'd been feeling it more and more lately). It's premature I realize and I know I have some rough times ahead, but I've been listening to my body with my taper this past year or so, and that's what I'm doing now. So far, it hasn't been as bad as I thought it might be . . . but I'm only a few days in. I'm holed up safely in my place, well prepared, and I have close friends aware of what I'm doing and checking in on me. I'll check back in here with an update as a bit more time passes. 

 

NOTE: In my case, I've been on a reinstatement after a "way too fast" doctor sanctioned withdrawal in 2014, after 25 years of being on the drugs. BAD MOVE! The reinstatement baseline has never been very good. I began a new, slow taper in 2016 and it has definitely been the way to go, and I will continue with the slow taper on the remaining Zoloft after I hold with the Benzo jump for a while and make sure I'm more or less OK.

[apace41]

Good luck, Elbee.

 

Try not to anticipate adversity too much, as that can result in self-fulfilling prophecy.  The body follows the mind quite often so trying to tell yourself that you are okay and this won't be that bad would be the better approach to the extent you can manage to do that.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[elbee]

Hey, just checking in. I'm doing OK. It's been a bit rough at times, increased anxiety of course and my sleep is whacked which I anticipated would happen. Thankfully I haven't had too much "panicky" ("altered state terror") stuff going on, so really grateful for that. So far, my recovery "training" has been serving me well, and I've mostly been able to be gentle and patient and stay out of catastrophic thinking. I'm still showering every day, making my bed, getting groceries, getting out at least once a day, etc . so I really do feel mostly "OK."

[Altostrata]

How are you doing, Elbee? Where are you in your tapering?

[elbee]

Thanks for dropping by Altostrata

 

I'm still holding after my Benzo jump, hanging in there, and I will continue to hold until I better stabilize (indefinitely). I have had some of the "panicky" DP/DR stuff arise which of course is really scary and uncomfortable . . . but the experience of it does seem overall to be shifting for me. In fact, there are times that it's very clear to me that this "hyper awareness / hyper reality" "panic" "DP/DR" (whatever it is I'm calling the existential terror) is rooted for me in trauma. There are times more frequently now that I have "altered state" stuff going on but it's not terror . . . it's more "blissful" or benign. I used to believe fully that when it came up, it was a nightmare reality I was "waking up" to that I'd never be able to handle -- THE ABYSS! And I DEFINITELY believe that "shadow" work . . . facing the ABYSS, is essential to healing and to living. But now I view the "scary altered state" as a perception of awakened reality that's enhanced through the lens of trauma. And that reality can be viewed in other ways, too, such as AWE and CONNECTED-NESS and OK-NESS. I know as I get off these drugs and heal my childhood trauma, I will continue to experience less terror and more awe. When I'm "in" the terror (triggered) I can't see the larger picture very well and it's still definitely terrifying. But even then, I have a better sense more often now that the terror perspective of existence is NOT the only reality that awaits as I continue to "wake up."

 

OK a little tangent there haha. Tis OK

 

Back to the taper . . . the first month of this hold (month of April basically) I was rolling with things pretty well. Then, moving into May, of course I start to get into the "this is taking too damn long" arena ("OMG, I'm broken more than everyone else, this isn't working for me!"), but I've mostly been able to catch myself and not totally spin out. I have to say, I have hit some pretty rough spots, much worse than I have felt for a long time. I know it would have been "smarter" to take my benzo taper down lower, I just couldn't do it. And this is just me, but a part inside me that I've grown to trust (my "inner kids" and "inner loving parent") just knew it was time to jump with the benzo and I did and I don't regret it. It was the right decision for me. I'm in a unique position that I have some money in the bank so I don't have to work right now . . . I don't have a partner or kids or other responsibilities that most adults have. I don't even have live plants at my house  I'm taking a "monk-like," "fast-track" approach to my WD process. Well, my taper has taken about 2.5 years so far and I have more to go, so not like a CT, but a "faster than generally recommended" taper. In a sense, my life is on "hold" while others going through this process are trudging along and life continues. It makes sense that our approaches to healing will be different.

 

OK, more "rambling" . . .

 

I am becoming more alive. My senses are so much more acute! And while I can describe and discuss this process in physiological terms (and that language is important . . . withdrawal, neurotransmitters, neurons), I'm also understanding what I'm doing using many other languages such as "awakening," "healing trauma," "self care," "boundaries," "releasing behavioral addictions / medicators," "coming out of dissociation," etc. These psych drugs we are dealing with affect my reality, and my reality is shifting. My living experience is effected day in and day out in this process. So while I am "tapering" in the physiological sense, I am also "detoxing and desensitizing" (tapering) in an experiential sense. I am coming out of a lifetime of dissociation, that I learned to do beginning as a small child, and that I eventually reinforced with adaptive/survival behaviors and by ingesting chemicals including psych drugs. 

 

All these "psych meds" (drugs) effect the neurotransmitters in my body very much like street drugs. In my view, they are essentially the same thing . . . aids to help dissociate. Stimulants distract and depressants numb, both = dissociation. All are "addictive" in that the brain adjusts to their regular use and has to "readjust" when use discontinues. The various drugs work differently in the brain, but the end effect is "checking out" in different ways from a fully human experience of reality. So hell ya, tapering these drugs is really important to give the brain time to heal from a physiological perspective (CT = re-traumatization). But I also need to "taper" from an experiential standpoint . . . I need enough time to adjust to my "shifting reality" so that I don't get experientially "flooded" (re-traumatized).

 

My journey involves releasing a butt ton of direct chemical medicators (alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, Remeron, Klonopin . . . and still left, some Zoloft). But my journey also involves "tapering" off all my behavioral medicators which help me distract and numb as much as the external drugs have. Some of my behavioral medicators include rescuing, people pleasing, codependency, achievement, etc. Using the behavioral medicators, I'm just reaching for the shelves of the INTERNAL drugs store as opposed to the EXTERNAL drugs store. But ALL of these "intoxicants" have served one single purpose . . . to keep me disconnected from myself (my feelings, my "inner kids"). Well, I got to a point I just couldn't run away from myself anymore. My body, mind and spirit were completely exhausted and I was completely lost in "addiction.". So now, my focus is "detox and desensitize" (taper), both physiologically and experientially. This takes time. It's not easy. It's painful.

 

I know my perspective isn't exactly the "party line" with this website . . . but then I don't think it's NOT either  And I don't know that I'm right in ways that I can recommend the things I'm doing to others, but I'm feeling increasingly congruent within myself and with the world around me for myself and my own healing. I SO appreciate that this website is out here. Thanks to all who contribute their time and energy to this communal healing! I'm continuing my involvement and my communal healing process through the Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (ACA) program in my area where I live. I can't even put words to the mind-blowing shifts I'm having as I learn a new way to live in "recovery" . . . freeing myself not only from direct chemical addiction and harm, but also behavioral. I journal a LOT, and perhaps some day I'll be in a place that I can share more of my experience and ideas with others in much more cohesive ways. For now, I periodically ramble, and I need very much NOT to get too wrapped up in other peoples' recovery and indulging in my "rescuer," "people pleasing," and "achievement" medicators!   But I do want to try and lend support as I can.

 

I will continue to do updates here at this site periodically. And for anyone that reads this . . . JUST HOLD ON when your "little flame" inside gets most dim. I thought many times my "little light" had completely gone out . . . that I had let it blow out, or even worse, that I myself had killed it . . . only to re-discover a bit later that it was still flickering softly, and always has been.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Elbee-- that is such a wonderful upbeat update, I'm going to have to read it several times to take it all in.

 

((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))

 

Brass

[elbee]

******* HUGS ******* Brass ;)

[elbee]

Hey, I just did a post about my struggles with and now my approaches to dealing with sleep:

 

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by elbee
redo link