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Helloworld: tapering olanzapine


helloworld

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Hello,

 

 

My history :

 

I had mania/psychosis crisis 3 years ago and was put on zyprexa 5mg at the hospital. I came to the hospital by myself. I stayed 10 days.

 

Zyprexa made me loose my feelings (unable to feel love for my family and friends anymore), emotions (i had to stop playing music while it was a real passion, because i was not able to feel the music anymore, i lost my love for playing it), sense of having a self, an identity (which gave me a lot of anxiety, and the belief i was becoming schizophrenic).

It created endogeneous depression and moral pain i never experimented before, even at 2.5 mg. I loss the feeling of owning myselft and my life, get despaired and had suicidal thoughts very often during the last 2 years.

 

I tried to come off it very soon (3 months after to have left the hospital) but i did it too quickly and maybe to soon also :

5mg-> 2.5mg for 1 month -> 1.25 mg for 1 month -> zero.

 

2 or 3 months after that, I had a hypersensitivity crisis with mania signs, so I took back 10mg for a week, and then 5 mg.

 

I retried to stop 3 months after, with the same pattern. I just made the 1.25 mg gap last longer. 2 months after having been on 1.25 mg, I did quite the same crisis than on my first attempt to stop : brutal coming back of the feeling to be myselft, feeling of love for everyone, mystical thoughts, poetry everywhere, affected like never by the beauty of nature, improved socialy, speaking with others, making jokes, having a lot of sexual desire, wanting to be a painter or a writer.... and : mind fog, frontal lobes strange activity, hard difficulties to concentrate at work and loss of sleep. So it gave me fear and I came back on 10 mg.

 

After that i started to withdraw from Zyprexa more seriously.

I read everything i can in websites, forums... about zyprexa and AP in general, since 2 years.

 

What i did after my second crisis (during the 2 last years, so) :

10mg >1 week

5 mg >3 months

3/4 of 5mg >1 month

2.5 mg >8 months  >> this gap was very hard. The worst have been 3 months after having switched to 2.5. I had terrible anxiety at work.

Alternation of 2.5 and 1.25 mg > 8 weeks

1.25 mg > 5 months

Alternation of 1.25 and 0.625 > 7 weeks

0.625 mg > 4 months.

 

So I am today at 0.625 mg since 4 months.

 

I will wait 2 months to switch to an alternation of 0.625 and 0.3125, during 6 or 8 weeks, then i will swith to 0.3125 continuously for at least 4 months.

Then I will see, depending on my state and my sleep : reducing by a half again, or alternate 0.3125 and zero for three or four months before dropping to zero, or 0.3125 every three days, etc.

 

---

 

Even if I am still on Zyprexa, here are the advices i could give to someone wanting to come off this quite horrible medication :

 

1/ Don't quit cold turkey, it could be too hard for your brain and you might loose your ability to sleep normally for a very long time. I read stories of people becoming unable to sleep more that 1 or 2 hours each night for 1 year and more. People lost the feeling of being sleepy. You also risk to make an hypersensitivy psychosis :

http://www.cercle-d-excellence-psy.org/informations/classification-de-wkl/diag-differentiels/psychose-hypersensibilite/,

which can occure until 6 months after discontinuing. If you experiment that you will not be able to know if you are having a relapse (of your initial and potentially chronical problem), or a withdrawal crisis due to Zyprexa discontinuation. It can affect the diagnosis and you might think you have to take Zyprexa for your lifetime, while you might be able to stop if definitely with a slow withdrawal process...

Psychiatrists often think that "there is no withdrawal effect from Zyprexa" so they will tell you you are ill if you have a relapse. You might be. But you might be not also....

This article explains one of the effecs of Zyprexa on the brain (increasing of dopaine receptors number) suspected to cause the withdrawal psychosis :

http://www.comingoff.com/ati.php

"The body will always try to maintain itself in a state of optimal conditions for cell functioning...."

 

 

2/ If a crisis following discontinuation can occur 3 or 6 month after to have left the medication (or to have reduced it significatively), it means the modifications that Zyprexa do to the brain make more than 3-6 months to reduce themselves (for example, "death" of unusual dopamine receptors). Because of that, you should make steps of 3 months minimum. Have patience and make very long steps. If you stay for 6 months or more at a certain dose, you will be aware that your mind is stable to that dose. Even if you have a relapse due to your health problem during the next step, you will then know that you will slowly be able to come back to the last and minimal dose where your were stable at. You can also see the withdrawal process as the research of the minimal dose of Zyprexa you can be sure to be stable on, with the hope this level will be zero.

 

3/ When I swith to a lower dose, i always have sleep problems during about 2 weeks. I take Valium 10mg the first night if i am sure i will not sleep (i don't feel sleepy at all), and 5mg for a week, then I stop. If I cannot sleep anymore I wait a week before taking Valium again. Valium is very helpfull for me. But you should not take Valium more than 2 weeks regularly. And before to drop to a lower dose of Zyprexa, make sure you did not take Valium since 1 or 2 months, because you might need it to manage upcoming sleep disturbances. Take care of benzo habit, when stopping them after months you might experiment also hypersensitivity crisis. I did, and i had to manage it by increasing Zyprexa...

 

4/ I don't switch to a lower dose if :

i don't sleep 8 hours regularly since 1 month at least ;

 

if i feel realy better, of i have lots of life and creative projects, if i think i am falling in love, etc.. If your mood is "too" fine, don't switch, because you might experiment hypomania. I did it, mainly because if felt good and i wanted to feel better again, have more social habilities... it was a mistake.

If that happens, just go back to the previous level for a while.

 

Note : If you experiment hypomania, you might have a lot of ideas and desires and feelings and not be able to completely master yourself. Your body will consume more energy than usually. It is very important to eat a lot for a while. Eat more than usually, take with you some dry fruits and go to the restaurant :)  If you miss energy it will affect your mind and you will be quickly exhausted. The risk is that you fall into a state you will not be able to master by yourself.

 

5/ Don't drink alcohol. Regular alcohol intake increases the effects of Zyprexa and by combination with it, installs hard depression and social withdrawal (what i experimented). If you feel depressed you will be likely to drink again and maybe more. It will increase again the depression. I experimented that. I had to stop eating and drinking coffee/alcool during a short illness due to a virus and i felt very better just the day after ! Then I understood and I stopped alcohol cold turkey (3 glasses a day) and felt very better, depressive state was gone. Notice that i had hands trembling and great mind fog 10 days after. Then I took 10mg of Valium and it was ok, but i get fear to make a delirium. I read that AP increases the risk of withdrawal from alcohol (even with a quite low daily dose of alcohol, it seams....). Valium is effective to manage alcohol withdrawal.

I started to drink alcohol because at the beginning, it makes me feel better at home after daywork. I was quite depressed, mainly by Zyprexa. So i took the habit to drink 2-3 glasses...

 

6/ Don't drink coffee (or try to stop, just te see..)

To have a better sleep during Zyprexa withdrawal i decided to stop coffee. I felt tired the first days and have headaches (withdrawals from coffee lasted about 2-3 weeks) but quickly i became unable to sleep and became agitated. I started to have more feelings and a better sense of my "self". In fact I found on the internet that coffee increases/modifies the effect of Zyprexa. I have left coffee since 5 weeks and i feel very very better. I managed insomnia with Valium and it is gone now, i stopped Valium. If I had stopped coffe earlier, maybe those last years should have been better for me (maybe). Try it, stop coffee for 5 weeks, feel yourself and then decide. I drank only a great cup in the morning, and a normal cup at 10:00 each day. If you drink more than that, you should reduce slowly and be careful because of the interaction with Zyprexa.

 

You can switch to :

Oothu tea (very poor in theine and caffeine)

Oolong tea (idem).

 

Sources :

« le café et le thé réduisent l'activité neuroleptique « 

http://www.medecine.ups-tlse.fr/dcem4/module11/chamontin/11_poly_tome_3.pdf

And also :

"There is also some evidence that caffeine may increase the blood levels of two new atypical antipsychotics, clozapine and olanzapine,"

http://www.healthieryou.com/mhexpert/exp1051401b.html

 

 

7/ Don't drink red tea (Rooibos). It decrases the half-life of Zyprexa. For withdrawal, it is better to have the longer half-life you can.

I experimented it. I drank red tea and get more feelings and insomnia.

Tobacco do the same, but more dramaticaly. I tried it also (not just to try it... in fact I discovered this effect by myselft and confirmed this discovery by reading articles on the internet).

If you are smoking and taking Zyprexa, and if you want to stop smoking, your level of Zyprexa will increase. You should know that and reduce a bit your dose of Zyprexa to adjust (take care).

 

8/ Don't switch from 0.625mg to zero. Switch to zero from the lower lower dose you can. I read history of someone being stable at 0.625g for 6 months, stopping, and having a relapse 2 months after. 0.625 is NOT a dose "with no therapeutic effect" like say psychiatrists. I found also a book on "google book" saying that 0.625 might be indicated for long term treatment of some kind of bipolar disorder.

According to this study :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4031586/

"the dosage of olanzapine at the time of discontinuation indicates that even a dose of olanzapine as low as 1.25 mg may have a significant role in preventing recurrence."

I don't like this study because all the 13 subjects are having a relapse after quitting Zyprexa, within 2 months, whatever the last level of Zyprexa was...

But the study says also

:"Mean dose of olanzapine at the time of discontinuation was 2.50 (SD 0.88) mg,"

Which means the lower dose was 1.62 mg.

I had hypomania for 2 months when reducing from 1.25 to 0.625...

For me they should have try lower "lower dose" in their study, from my point of view 1.62 mg is not a "real" lower dose, even it is far lower than the 5mg usual dose.

 

It is not because the dose is low compared to the usual one that this dose has no effects on your brain and can not bring withdrawal problems, maybe critical.

 

What I say to myselft : If you are on Olanzapine, this means your brain is likely to enter into some kind of crisis if some conditions are filled. This not means that you have to take this medicine all your lifetime. This means also that a very little modification of Olanzapine level could have the effect of a spark and put you on a crisis you might be able to avoid by quitting the med at a lower, infinitesimal level.

 

Regards and hope for everyone here.

 

*

2016/07 - 2020/02 : free of drug (about 4 years). The two first years were "touchy" with hypomanic states and some sleep problems. One psychotic crisis in 2018 (10 days delusion) cured without medication, just by speaking to a friend. No troubles anymore after that and no sleep problems (since 2 years). I am now convinced that the delusion is not a trouble to cure but the way the brain try to cure himself from trauma.
2016/07 : Dropped to zero mg Zyprexa, with help of micronutrients following blood analysis, sophrology, dance therapy and psychotherapy.
2016/04 - 2016/07 : Zyprexa 0.3125 mg (3 months)
2015/11 - 2016/04 : Zyprexa 0.625 mg (5 months)
2015/06 - 2015/11 : Zyprexa 1,25 mg (5 months)
2014/10 - 2015/06 : Zyprexa 2,5 mg (8 months)
2014/08 - 2014/10 : Zyprexa 3,75 mg (2 months)
-^- Starting progressive withdrawal from Zyprexa 5 mg

2013/05 - 2014/08 : 1 year of Zyprexa 5mg (3 months 5mg then two failed cold turkeys withdrawals within a year, with necessity to take again 10 mg one week and then 5 mg again).

2013/05 : hospitalization for psychotic crisis due to brutal feeling of living comeback occuring during psychotraumatic healing process in psychotherapy.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hello Helloworld , welcome to the site. I have moved your post from Tapering to Introductions to create

your own personal thread. You can use this to journal , share or ask questions.

 

Please could you have a go at filling in your signature - a brief summary of your drug history.

Instructions are here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/893-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

 

You may wish to discuss your benzo usage in the "Members' Only Benzo Forum". Taking 10mg every night for a

week is very heavy-handed and not adviseable. It keeps your brain bouncing around , which is the opposite of the goal.

 

If your 10% cuts are so disruptive , you may be better off doing smaller cuts so you don't need valium.

See our thread on micro-tapering here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2878-micro-taper-instead-of-10-or-5-decreases/

 

Good to have you on board , Fresh

1987-1997 pertofran , prothiaden , Prozac 1997-2002 Zoloft 2002-2004 effexor 2004-2010 Lexapro 40mg

2010-2012Cymbalta 120mg

Sept. 2012 -decreased 90mg in 6months. Care taken over by Dr Lucire in March 2013 , decreased last 30mg at 2mg per week over 3 months. July 21 , 2013- last dose of Cymbalta

Protracted withdrawal syndrome kicked in badly Jan.2014 Unrelenting akathisia until May 2014. Voluntary hosp. admission. Cocktail of Seroquel, Ativan and mirtazapine and I was well enough to go home after 14 days. Stopped all hosp. meds in next few months.

July 2014 felt v.depressed - couldn't stop crying. Started pristiq 50mg. Felt improvement within days and continued to improve, so stayed on 50mg for 8 months.

Began taper 28 Feb. 2015. Pristiq 50mg down to 45mg. Had one month of w/d symptoms. Started CES therapy in March. No w/d symptoms down to 30mg.

October 2015 , taking 25mg Pristiq. Capsules compounded with slow-release additive.

March 2016 , 21mg

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  • 1 month later...

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Did you find this text useful ?

After to have wrote it, i posted a message asking to delete it because I thought it was not totally relevant.

I thought it had been, but I see it isn't, because you moved it on the site.

 

My withdrawal plan would be a bit hard for someone which would be more sensitive than me. Your advices of 10% gaps are better.

I wrote all that in a special state, maybe a little agitated :)

 

You can delete it if you want, or keep it if you find that some things are interesting and could help.

 

About coffee, i realize my 2 weblinks are arguing something contrary each other. Anyway...

 

I am now at 0.3125 mg/day since 1 week and it's ok.

 

I use 10mg Valium only the first day of insomnia to be sure to "broke" the "racing brain" state and have a long night to recover.

After that, I drop to 5mg, for 1 or 2 weeks maximum.

Valium lowers brain activity and it's exactly what I am looking for during the gaps were I am more sensitive than usually.

 

Best regards.

2016/07 - 2020/02 : free of drug (about 4 years). The two first years were "touchy" with hypomanic states and some sleep problems. One psychotic crisis in 2018 (10 days delusion) cured without medication, just by speaking to a friend. No troubles anymore after that and no sleep problems (since 2 years). I am now convinced that the delusion is not a trouble to cure but the way the brain try to cure himself from trauma.
2016/07 : Dropped to zero mg Zyprexa, with help of micronutrients following blood analysis, sophrology, dance therapy and psychotherapy.
2016/04 - 2016/07 : Zyprexa 0.3125 mg (3 months)
2015/11 - 2016/04 : Zyprexa 0.625 mg (5 months)
2015/06 - 2015/11 : Zyprexa 1,25 mg (5 months)
2014/10 - 2015/06 : Zyprexa 2,5 mg (8 months)
2014/08 - 2014/10 : Zyprexa 3,75 mg (2 months)
-^- Starting progressive withdrawal from Zyprexa 5 mg

2013/05 - 2014/08 : 1 year of Zyprexa 5mg (3 months 5mg then two failed cold turkeys withdrawals within a year, with necessity to take again 10 mg one week and then 5 mg again).

2013/05 : hospitalization for psychotic crisis due to brutal feeling of living comeback occuring during psychotraumatic healing process in psychotherapy.

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I precise that psychiatrists don't think I am biopolar nor psychotic, even it is not possible to be sure i will never have a relapse.

I have hope ! The end of Zyprexa is not so far, and after that, a big breath of life and feelings !

 

I notice that you told Valium can have an opposite effect. I dont' understand because I feel the contrary. It lowers the withdrawal effects of Zyprexa, but my brain seams to continue to adjust to the lack of Zyprexa nevertheless. So when I stop Valium, the withdrawal effect of Zyprexa is gone... I start to sleep again normaly.

If you take Valium for more that 2 weeks, your brain will take the habit of the drug and you will start to have a problem with Valium. That is why it is to use very carefuly and maybe not such a good advice, as you said.

 

Regards.

2016/07 - 2020/02 : free of drug (about 4 years). The two first years were "touchy" with hypomanic states and some sleep problems. One psychotic crisis in 2018 (10 days delusion) cured without medication, just by speaking to a friend. No troubles anymore after that and no sleep problems (since 2 years). I am now convinced that the delusion is not a trouble to cure but the way the brain try to cure himself from trauma.
2016/07 : Dropped to zero mg Zyprexa, with help of micronutrients following blood analysis, sophrology, dance therapy and psychotherapy.
2016/04 - 2016/07 : Zyprexa 0.3125 mg (3 months)
2015/11 - 2016/04 : Zyprexa 0.625 mg (5 months)
2015/06 - 2015/11 : Zyprexa 1,25 mg (5 months)
2014/10 - 2015/06 : Zyprexa 2,5 mg (8 months)
2014/08 - 2014/10 : Zyprexa 3,75 mg (2 months)
-^- Starting progressive withdrawal from Zyprexa 5 mg

2013/05 - 2014/08 : 1 year of Zyprexa 5mg (3 months 5mg then two failed cold turkeys withdrawals within a year, with necessity to take again 10 mg one week and then 5 mg again).

2013/05 : hospitalization for psychotic crisis due to brutal feeling of living comeback occuring during psychotraumatic healing process in psychotherapy.

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  • 9 months later...

Hello,

 

Good news. 7 months drug free. Totally fine.

 

Return of my self, good sleep, joy comes back, lover enters in my life.

 

It was a long battle and i won it.

 

I have the deep feeling, the inner "sense", feeling my brain, looking at my thoughts and my mood balance... That I will NEVER "relapse" anymore, neither loose sleep and need any medication at any time of my future life. My whole body tells me that.

 

It is like something had deeply cicatrized in me !

 

Thanks for your forum. Your stories, your advices, helped me.

 

I give all the hope I can to anyone who would like to stop all medication.

 

Don't pay attention to my previous posts, I was hypomanic while writing them.

 

Hope and Love for anyone here.

 

Regards

2016/07 - 2020/02 : free of drug (about 4 years). The two first years were "touchy" with hypomanic states and some sleep problems. One psychotic crisis in 2018 (10 days delusion) cured without medication, just by speaking to a friend. No troubles anymore after that and no sleep problems (since 2 years). I am now convinced that the delusion is not a trouble to cure but the way the brain try to cure himself from trauma.
2016/07 : Dropped to zero mg Zyprexa, with help of micronutrients following blood analysis, sophrology, dance therapy and psychotherapy.
2016/04 - 2016/07 : Zyprexa 0.3125 mg (3 months)
2015/11 - 2016/04 : Zyprexa 0.625 mg (5 months)
2015/06 - 2015/11 : Zyprexa 1,25 mg (5 months)
2014/10 - 2015/06 : Zyprexa 2,5 mg (8 months)
2014/08 - 2014/10 : Zyprexa 3,75 mg (2 months)
-^- Starting progressive withdrawal from Zyprexa 5 mg

2013/05 - 2014/08 : 1 year of Zyprexa 5mg (3 months 5mg then two failed cold turkeys withdrawals within a year, with necessity to take again 10 mg one week and then 5 mg again).

2013/05 : hospitalization for psychotic crisis due to brutal feeling of living comeback occuring during psychotraumatic healing process in psychotherapy.

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Dont forget you are now the boss ..you never have to take anything again!

(I think this encouragement might get a bit lost in translation)....

simply put, im saying wishing you the best for the rest of your drug free life!

Great news.

 

Thankyou for taking the time to update.

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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  • 10 months later...

congrats, helloworld. 

 my son is on 1.25mg now for one month after relapse. he stopped taking zyprexa for two months but he was a hospitalzed cause of insomnia. 

you reduce your meds almost 50% every five months. were you stable when you were doing the cuts. since this form advices 10% cut after stablization, how did you

manage? you said you were taking valium for insomnia, did you take any vit. or diet change with your withdrawal. I just want learn more since we are on the same meds. thanks. 

Hi, 

This is Tyson. I'm not sure if I'm doing this in the right place. But I'm doing this cause I thought I don't have a file here. 

I was trying to get some help from members with my son's withdrawal, but it's been lost somewhere. So, I thought maybe I should 

put my intro. and then that might help.

My son started Respiradol 3mg took that for three month and dropped it. Then Abilify 5mg for six month and due to his restlesnes, stopped by his doc. 

then got ordered to take zyprexa 15mg. He took zyprexa for five years but lowering with the help of doc and compounding pharmacy. he is now on 1.25mg. but 

things are getting tough. no nutrition guide or supplements. 

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  • 2 years later...

Hello Tyson,

 

Sorry i did not see your post. I will answer you nevertheless.

 

Before my final drop, I went to a micronutritionist and did several blood analysis. I took food complements (minerals, vitamins and oils) adapted to me.

I continue to take those complements.

This helped me a lot. It gave me the feeling i could stop.

I was also doing psychotherapy, danse therapy and sophrology.

It is important to have a good body balance and to learn to relax.

 

1.25mg is a too high dose to stop, according to me, my experience and everything I read on the internet (see my first post on this topic).

 

Yes I did gap of 50% but Always with a 1 month or more period during which I was taking the last dose and the new alternatively.

For example, when switching from 2.5 to 1.25, I took 2.5g one day, 1.25g the other day… during several weeks.

I read about this technique in other american forums, it seams to have good results, so I tried It and it works with me also.

I was Always stable when doing the drops.

That was my personnal strategy : long periods and the same level (between 4 and 8 month depending of my feelings) until to be stable, and then drop of 50% starting with a step where i was taking the last and the new dose alternatively (OK with olanzapine, which as a long half-life).

 

Best regards.

 

 

2016/07 - 2020/02 : free of drug (about 4 years). The two first years were "touchy" with hypomanic states and some sleep problems. One psychotic crisis in 2018 (10 days delusion) cured without medication, just by speaking to a friend. No troubles anymore after that and no sleep problems (since 2 years). I am now convinced that the delusion is not a trouble to cure but the way the brain try to cure himself from trauma.
2016/07 : Dropped to zero mg Zyprexa, with help of micronutrients following blood analysis, sophrology, dance therapy and psychotherapy.
2016/04 - 2016/07 : Zyprexa 0.3125 mg (3 months)
2015/11 - 2016/04 : Zyprexa 0.625 mg (5 months)
2015/06 - 2015/11 : Zyprexa 1,25 mg (5 months)
2014/10 - 2015/06 : Zyprexa 2,5 mg (8 months)
2014/08 - 2014/10 : Zyprexa 3,75 mg (2 months)
-^- Starting progressive withdrawal from Zyprexa 5 mg

2013/05 - 2014/08 : 1 year of Zyprexa 5mg (3 months 5mg then two failed cold turkeys withdrawals within a year, with necessity to take again 10 mg one week and then 5 mg again).

2013/05 : hospitalization for psychotic crisis due to brutal feeling of living comeback occuring during psychotraumatic healing process in psychotherapy.

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