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Barbarannamated

Disconnect between interest and action/motivation

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Barbarannamated

I just read Cine's intro in which he mentioned the disconnect between interest (vague, blunted emotion in my case) and ability to DO something with that interest. I beat myself up so badly about this. I read of things that i would like to get involved with and actually get fairly excited. For a few minutes. Then it's gone. I've been in NEUTRAL for so long. I see roads I'd like to explore, but cannot shift into DRIVE. When I do manage to do something, it's a last minute chance happening, as if I'm on a downgrade and gravity gets me there. Planning is impossible.

What is this and how can I deal with it better? I have the emotional blunting and amotivation, then guilt. I used to be so different. I planned things for groups. The organizer. Now I can't seem to plan 5 minutes ahead.

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Altostrata

I know exactly what you mean, bar. I was talking about this the other day with my therapist. I seem to have the interest in making a plan but I have no energy to do it. I'm wondering if this is related to the lack of sense of reward, part of emotional blunting (I'm calling it emotional anesthesia now). Druid brilliantly described it here

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2873-anhedonia-apathy-demotivation/?p=5231

Edited by Petu
fixed link

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Roads

I have no answer but I would like to tell you I understand so much. I know quite well this painful feeling (rather the dull awareness, I wasn't barely able to bemoan it, just to labouriously being aware of it, I could'nt felt anymore), of incapacity to indulge and explore my interests, even if it was techniccally possible. It is just like impotence, but general impotence, and it is awful. It is also a while since I also live just like you say, without being able to plan. Numbly plodding in the fog. It is horrible and so sad. Both extremely frustrating and depressing.

 

I used to guily myself just like you do, but I don't any more, because I know I am not a lazy larva, but I am just unfairly deprived of myself. You and I are just victims. Feel indignant, but don't feel guilty. Don't add it to the harm which has been done to you. You deserve nothing but sympathy, you owe you nothing but sympathy.

 

I hope you will soon retrieve your energy and capacity of investment. It will happen :)

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Barbarannamated

Thanks. I had seen that thread when I first got here and it was good to reread.

I agree 100% that anhedonia of depression is nothing compared to this emotional anesthesia with spurts of negative emotions breaking through. I don't trust anything I'm feeling because it is all so foreign. I was never an angry person.

The one person who seems to understand this the best said to me 'just make a decision and get a divorce already like millions of other women do'. While that is my intended plan, I cannot put it into action. That comment really triggered anger and feeling that person truly has no clue.

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Phil

You describe this problem so well, Barbara.

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summer

 

 

I was talking about this the other day with my therapist. I seem to have the interest in making a plan but I have no energy to do it.

 

 

You are describing me! I never thought of it as a problem we all seem to share... I thought it was just ME! I have to honestly say that this is something my therapist just doesn't get. I try... but the energy/true desire I think, isn't there. Why?

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Rhiannon

I'm grateful for this thread, I am so frustrated about this too. Actually I have all sorts of ideas but I find it almost impossible to carry any of them through. Even simple things like buying an air conditioner and organizing some things around the house feel like huge obstacles; I can see them and think them through but there's just a disconnect between that and actually having the "oomph" to do them.

 

I'm not depressed. I've been depressed and this isn't that. There's just something missing. Unless there's some major reason why I have to do something due to outside forces, it's not going to happen. I just don't have the internal drive.

 

It's not exactly the same as anhedonia, for me, although it's closely connected and the two overlap, and I'm sure it's related as far as whatever's going on neurologically.

 

I like the analogy of impotence, actually--"general impotence", of life.

 

I've suffered from this for most of the 20 years I have been taking antidepressants. It's very interesting to hear other people describing the same thing.

 

Also, it seems to be worse when I'm having other withdrawal symptoms too, and seems to get better during my "hold" periods. But even at my best it's always still a problem.

 

Thanks so much for starting this discussion, I find it very reassuring to hear others describing the same thing, I have to say I have been beating myself up for 20 years about this.

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compsports

I wanted to add my voice to the list of folks who have this problem.

 

Summer, I sure wish I knew why.

 

That is shame your therapist doesn't get this.

 

I don't know where I saw this but someone who had gotten off of psych meds started off doing something with her interests one hour a week and gradually worked her way to more hours. Would something like that help people or not?

 

CS

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Barbarannamated

It seems like 'executive dysfunction' which, if memory serves (don't count on that), is HYPOTHETICALLY localized in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC).

I won't start NTB (neurotransmitter babble) ;-)

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summer

 

Summer, I sure wish I knew why.

 

That is shame your therapist doesn't get this.

 

I don't know where I saw this but someone who had gotten off of psych meds started off doing something with her interests one hour a week and gradually worked her way to more hours. Would something like that help people or not?

 

CS

 

 

My therapist is great, really, but is older and not as up-to-date about meds as I would like him to be. He thinks the low energy/motivation is another form of depression. That's what I always thought as well...

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Barbarannamated

Also... similar to amotivational syndrome of marijuana, although I am not aware of similar disconnect between interest (often very strong for me) and the inability to initiate action let alone follow through (there's a word to describe this--cannot access right now).

 

Ok, now I will reveal the nerd that I truly am and tell you that I located Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology text in the bottom of the mess in my car and had a moment of excitement! Haven't looked at this in a long time. Interesting that he uses 'hypothetically' and 'theoretically' in nearly every paragraph.

Just a few quick comments :

1) he differentiates btwn motivation (emotion from DLPFC) and maintaining goals/ allocating attention (cognition from orbital/medial/lateral PFC).

2) APATHY WITH vs. WITHOUT DEPRESSED MOOD due to diff brain circuits --PFC and HYPOTHALAMIC 'DRIVE' CENTER (could there be endocrine involvement??!) That's my cynicism, just FYI.

3) NITRIC OXIDE synthetase and WELL DOCUMENTED PAROXETINE WITHDRAWAL theoretically related to sexual dysfunction ESP IN MEN. ??? 2D6 potent inhibition. Can't find further explanation, but wanted to note that in case you all hadn't stumbled upon that already.

4) strong emphasis on amino acid glutamate &

synthetase in GLIAL CELLS** Is it me, or has there been more mention of glia of late? Recent article (to me) called glia the electromagnetic center and far more important than biochemical structures/functions.

Apologies if this has been covered already. I grasp at any info that may trigger understanding of this mess and how to help.

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Altostrata

Thanks for the info, Bar.

 

Grain of salt alert: Nobody has figured out how the parts of the brain work together on motivation or any other human behavior.

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Barbarannamated

Just one more thing that struck me :

The 'A's'

--alogia

--affective blunting

--asociality

--anhedonia

--AVOLITION -reduced desire, motivation, persistence; restrictions in initiation of goal directed behavior**

I sure relate to that list--the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. Trying to think of how this differs from depression.... and withdrawal.

 

I can't express how gratifying it felt to (re)open a topic that a few of you relate to and also be able to concentrate on one thing for more than 30 seconds. Neurogenesis can happen!

Dopaflow! Was that Alto growling at me? ;-)

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Altostrata

bar, it's great you found the research stimulating!

 

Just wanted to point out -- symptoms in schizophrenia are a matter of degree, and mixed with a lot of other extreme cognitive, emotional, and behavioral symptoms.

 

The sharing of a subset of symptoms (sometimes) between schizophrenia and depression means nothing in reality, though psychiatric researchers try to make a big deal about it. They've been trying and failing to standardize these symptom lists for many years. They change from DSM to DSM.

 

(This is another big debate regarding the DSM-5 -- it relies a lot more on symptom lists for diagnosis.)

 

One part of the problem is that any reporting of symptoms is subjective on both the part of the patient and the doctor, who will interpret what the patient says to suit his or her own world view. E.g.: If you're a bipolar specialist, everyone is bipolar. If you're inclined toward ADHD, everybody gets legal speed.

 

I'm sorry, bar, I am very, very skeptical that depression and schizophrenia have anything in common biologically, other than both occurring in humans with brains and nervous systems.

 

I predict you're going to be surprised to find how deep the hooey goes when it comes to psychiatry handbooks.

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Barbarannamated

The DSM is a bunch of BS that provides a label for everyone. With the APA the self-designated gods deciding what normal is. DSM gets thicker and 'normal' gets smaller.

What I DO think is valid is that endocrine, neuro, and behavior are inextricably woven and some structures, although not proven, correlate to certain pathologies. Brain imaging in neurology is more advanced than anything in psych. Parkinsons, Alzheimers, Picks, etc., have been better documented thru imaging. Not to say there isn't a long way to go.

Did you read of the female coach of a Tennessee team who was treated for depression for 2 yrs and then found to have early onset dementia? Summit may be her name. I haven't seen specifics, but it is an excellent example.

I've done a bit of research in creativity. Fascinating!

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alexjuice

This is a great topic.

 

I struggle with action and reward. I'm pretty well-interested though. For instance, I can make a lot of plans, but the follow through is rare. Very hard to stick with things. A new day, a new comprehensive plan for the next 30 days.

 

My fear and reward systems are way out of whack still. So a lot of what I do do is based on fear. Recently, someone tried to buy a website i made. I was terribly nervous that the offer was not legitimate or that it would fall through. I struggled but did a bunch of work to finalize my end of the bargain, but was still afraid the sale would not materialize. (I had mentioned to others that I had a buyer and this made the potential embarrassment more potent had the buyer re-negged.)

 

Anyway, I sold my website at a huge profit to my time and investment in it. And, honestly, I am really happy about it, but I got no 'kick' no reward sensation, at least not by comparison to the fear that the sale wouldn't happen.

 

Lastly, the fact that I have a moderate unanticipated adverse reaction to some ordinary food or product makes the extent of my problem harder to grasp. Almost every week it seems I lose a day because I'm in space because of ginger tea or b12 or maalox or flax seeds another couple dozen things.

 

Alex.i

 

ps - I'm tired.

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summer

 

My fear and reward systems are way out of whack still. So a lot of what I do do is based on fear. Recently, someone tried to buy a website i made. I was terribly nervous that the offer was not legitimate or that it would fall through. I struggled but did a bunch of work to finalize my end of the bargain, but was still afraid the sale would not materialize. (I had mentioned to others that I had a buyer and this made the potential embarrassment more potent had the buyer re-negged.)

 

Anyway, I sold my website at a huge profit to my time and investment in it. And, honestly, I am really happy about it, but I got no 'kick' no reward sensation, at least not by comparison to the fear that the sale wouldn't happen.

 

 

Alex.i

 

ps - I'm tired.

 

 

 

Try to enjoy the success! The fear is behind you now. You deserve the success, you really do! :D

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compsports

""My therapist is great, really, but is older and not as up-to-date about meds as I would like him to be. He thinks the low energy/motivation is another form of depression. That's what I always thought as well"

 

Sadly, I don't think your therapist is alone in thinking that.

 

If I remember correctly, there was a study that recognized that low energy/motivation might be due to ADs. But of course, the caveat was thrown in about it also being due to untreated depression.

 

Sorry, I wish I could remember more of the details.

 

CS

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brighteningup

Wow this is a fascinating.

 

One of the reasons I wanted off the ADs was they seemed to have made me really de-motivated.

 

Less stressed out, less emotional in any direction. The first 2-3 months this was a relief. After that it wasn't.

 

For the first time in my life I found myself going back to bed in the morning. This never happened when I'd been depressed and anxious before but not on ADs. I found it really hard to do anything much. It was worse from about 3 months in. It was one of the reasons I was so keen to get off them. This feeling persisted off and on as I tapered off.

 

The good news is that I'm finally starting to get my energy back and hopefully my motivation too, though it's not back to normal yet.

 

This topic actually gives me hope, before the ADs I could always manage to get myself motivated somehow. During the ADs it was really hard, now as I'm post AD hopefully this motivation will come back as my system re-sets itself.

 

I'm fascinated that I have experienced this too, even tho' I was on the meds a much shorter time than most people here. Althoughin my case, my HPA axis feedback mechanism may have been already been a bit messed up prior to the ADs, by topical corticosteroids, which probably didn't help either.

 

Here's to more good days for everyone.

 

Best,

 

Bright

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Barbarannamated

Bright ... that gives ME hope!! I would like to hear more about your HPA axis as I also have endocrine issues. Hashimotos thyroiditis treated w Synthroid since 1996 and now doc suspects much more but I have yet to complete the thousands of $$ of labwork that nobody has been able to say will be valid indicators of primary endocrine dysfunction and not secondary to ADs (possibly/hopefully transient). I trust my endocrinologist and he is aware of the mess that ADs can cause (and all psych drugs), but not how to tease it out.

One of the treatments would be corticosteroids and I am not going to throw any more meds on this mess before someone--several someones--convince me of benefit over risk, etc. I've contacted many endocrine and other specialists across the country and not one has been able to answer my questions.

Then I got overwhelmed by it all and took a break.

 

Thanks for your post, Bright!

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summer

This thread really is fascinating! It's more than a mere coincidence that so many of us feel exactly the same way. I just wish we knew why this is happening, and could fix it!!

 

There is some relief that I'm not alone in this... I absolutely thought it was only me. My family has been annoyed at me for years because I have little motivation to do much of anything. Now they tease me and laugh, which is better than being angry I guess.

 

I do what I have to do... I am able to do that much... but doing something enjoyable or something that might take some thought and energy... that's another story.

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Altostrata

I also found Paxil very demotivating, which is one reason I wanted off the accursed stuff.

 

The DSM is a bunch of BS that provides a label for everyone. With the APA the self-designated gods deciding what normal is. DSM gets thicker and 'normal' gets smaller.

What I DO think is valid is that endocrine, neuro, and behavior are inextricably woven and some structures, although not proven, correlate to certain pathologies. Brain imaging in neurology is more advanced than anything in psych. Parkinsons, Alzheimers, Picks, etc., have been better documented thru imaging. Not to say there isn't a long way to go.

Did you read of the female coach of a Tennessee team who was treated for depression for 2 yrs and then found to have early onset dementia? Summit may be her name. I haven't seen specifics, but it is an excellent example.

I've done a bit of research in creativity. Fascinating!

 

bar, I would distinguish between true brain diseases, such as Parkinsons, Alzheimers, Picks, etc., and the "brain diseases" psychiatry is trying to make of mood disorders.

 

Now they're trying to call depression a degenerative brain disease. I find that personally insulting. It also does a disservice to people suffering from truly degenerative brain disorders. Oddly, people do recover from the "degenerative brain disease" of depression by non-drug means.

 

Now the fundamental principle of "chemical imbalance" is dead, psychiatry is doing its best to use brain imaging to find the seats of emotion. I believe this is nothing but high-tech phrenology, and eventually will come to nothing, just as "chemical imbalance" did.

 

What they are trying to do is divide human experience into pathological and non-pathological brain processes. So-called bad feelings are diseased, good feelings are healthy. The debate over including grief as a major depressive disorder in the DSM-5. Weep over the death of your mother for more than 2 weeks and you have a "brain disorder" (Major Depressive Episode Rationale: "The exclusion of symptoms judged better accounted for by Bereavement is removed because evidence does not support separation of loss of loved one from other stressors.")

 

Now in what diseased part of the brain is this supposed to occur? Surely memory and cognitive processes are involved, as well as many others. Perhaps the entire brain is diseased? Which would mean that people with healthy brains are those who would weep for 2 weeks or less, or maybe not at all?

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Barbarannamated

YES YES YES!! I read Gianna's Beyond Meds last nite. She spoke about the woman who started the Georgia Alternative Respite house and linked to her piece about how she handles her various crises by allowing herself to feel the emotions rather than doing whatever possible to run from them, dull them, think them away, etc. That is profound, esp from an evolutionary perspective. Some say that depression and other states are adaptive response s to life events. I may be saying that wrong, but hope you understand. I have had my eyes opened to so many things over the past year and question all 'mental illness'.

When Catherine Zeta Jones was diagnosed w bipolar, an article stated that she had abnormal positive mood considering that her husband was struggling with cancer. Something like that. I was blown away by the absurdity of the wording. WHO is the judge of 'normal'??? Certainly not the APA!

 

Then there's the whole discussion of VOICES! Many possible explanations that are not pathological., imho.

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summer

Some say that depression and other states are adaptive response s to life events. I may be saying that wrong, but hope you understand.

Rings true for me.

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Rhiannon

It seems like 'executive dysfunction' which, if memory serves (don't count on that), is HYPOTHETICALLY localized in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC).

I won't start NTB (neurotransmitter babble) ;-)

 

Oh, please do! just include a glossary.

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Altostrata

Exactly! Our emotions, good and bad, are part of the factory installation -- of course, they're evolutionarily essential.

 

Feeling stress in a bad marriage? For God's sake, what is a human expected to feel? Bad feelings are nature's way of telling us something needs to be changed in our lives. Grieving loss is a natural process shared by many animals, maybe even all of them. Anesthetizing away bad feelings only maintains you in a bad situation -- ideal for the soul-killing jobs so many of us have these days.

 

I recently told a friend who was stressing out over a job that she should never work in a place where she needed to take medication to tolerate her job.

 

Back to the topic -- unfortunately this demotivating effect of psychiatric anesthetics seems to take some time to recover from....

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Rhiannon

Also... similar to amotivational syndrome of marijuana, although I am not aware of similar disconnect between interest (often very strong for me) and the inability to initiate action let alone follow through (there's a word to describe this--cannot access right now).

 

Ok, now I will reveal the nerd that I truly am and tell you that I located Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology text in the bottom of the mess in my car and had a moment of excitement! Haven't looked at this in a long time. Interesting that he uses 'hypothetically' and 'theoretically' in nearly every paragraph.

Just a few quick comments :

1) he differentiates btwn motivation (emotion from DLPFC) and maintaining goals/ allocating attention (cognition from orbital/medial/lateral PFC).

2) APATHY WITH vs. WITHOUT DEPRESSED MOOD due to diff brain circuits --PFC and HYPOTHALAMIC 'DRIVE' CENTER (could there be endocrine involvement??!) That's my cynicism, just FYI.

3) NITRIC OXIDE synthetase and WELL DOCUMENTED PAROXETINE WITHDRAWAL theoretically related to sexual dysfunction ESP IN MEN. ??? 2D6 potent inhibition. Can't find further explanation, but wanted to note that in case you all hadn't stumbled upon that already.

4) strong emphasis on amino acid glutamate &

synthetase in GLIAL CELLS** Is it me, or has there been more mention of glia of late? Recent article (to me) called glia the electromagnetic center and far more important than biochemical structures/functions.

Apologies if this has been covered already. I grasp at any info that may trigger understanding of this mess and how to help.

 

yeah I have to ditto the grain of salt alert: what we think we know about the brain (which is being outdated yearly) is dwarfed by the massive hugeness of our ignorance about the brain like a dwarf star is dwarfed by a galaxy.

 

Which is probably why he says "hypothetically" so much. I wish psychiatrists would pay more attention to neuroscientists...sigh...

 

And about glia, yeah, I checked out The Other Brain from the library, we're all about the glia these days. Turns out these "support" cells of the brain may be where most of the real action takes place.

 

Which, again, as I said above: for what, fifty years, people have Known For Sure that it was all about the neurons and glia were insignificant. Only now not so much. Oops. Sorry about the lobotomies. Sorry we screwed you up by giving you chemicals we thought would be good for you that instead destroyed your life, because we can't admit we don't know what we're talking about.

 

Still, you can't keep a good nerd down, so I love this stuff...

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Barbarannamated

In which stage of grieving does weeping occur and does that stage coincide w DSM's acceptable weep weeks?

Just checking....

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Altostrata

Psychiatry is casting about for a raison d'etre now that chemical imbalance is dead. The theory that antidepressants stimulate neurogenesis -- lack of neurogenesis being responsible for depression -- is one of the candidates. Hence, the focus on glial cells.

 

Last year, it was all serotonin and receptors, this year, it's all glial cells and neurogenesis.

 

Hint: NONE of the studies showing antidepressants stimulate neurogenesis have compared this to natural causes of neurogenesis, such as exercise or reading good books.

 

So I say, as usual, WTF.

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Rhiannon

"" I believe this is nothing but high-tech phrenology""

 

YES YES YES! LOL!

 

brain imaging is SO overrated--That is, it's interesting and fun and fine, as far as telling us what parts of the brain become active when we do certain tasks. But that's all it does. It sheds NO light upon the actual chemical processes happening inside. It can't tell you anything about what the different parts are actually DOING. It just tells you a little about the geography.

 

Not that brain imaging is bad inherently. Lots of interesting insights. Just, so much overreaching about what it can really tell us, which isn't much.

 

As you can see I have a head of steam about this, been frustrated and annoyed and rolling-eyes about it for a long time but never before in a conversation where I could let off that steam about it.

 

Alto, you rock. Thank you for saying that. And in a way that made me snort out loud, too. High tech phrenology, indeed. Love it!

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brighteningup

Responding to a question from Bar a bit further up.

 

My feeling my HPA axis feedback was messed up by moderate to strong topical steroids is just that a feeling. I have no proof, just based on symptons I had with no other clear explanation other than 'your depressed'. (interestingly a GP I had seen prior to my violent mood swing downward had suggested that I wasn't depressed and I should try and exercise more to sort out the fatigue and insomnia I was experiencing).

 

Returning to more recent discussions, I think we musn't dismiss brain imaging research, observation of phenomena can sometimes lead to useful theory and insight, but we do need to be very sceptical and think critically about the claims that are made.

 

Yes, a lot of it might turn out to be rubbish, but overall it can also add to our accumalated knowledge and understanding, and I think that is a good thing.

 

Bright.

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cinephile

So-called bad feelings are diseased, good feelings are healthy.

This very line of thinking is diseased. Not for nothing do I have Nietzsche as my avatar. Nietzsche feared that this line of thinking would come to dominate humanity after his death.

 

That is, the thinking that if anything is unpleasant, it must be bad (or in this case, diseased), and annihilated. This kind of thinking will make people far more infantalized and pathologically soft, and, tragically, unable to harness the good AND bad of their lives (that is, the totality of their experience) and turn it to their advantage and form their character. The "bad" of our lives often make us stronger and more profound, and we lose out on that opportunity if we dull it away with meds and the pathologizing of ordinary life.

 

It is a sick will to pathologize even the smallest suffering and seek to anesthetize it. To me, it's a sign of an empire in decline.

 

PS: I think the anhedonic effects of SSRIs is a major contributing factor to the obesity/diabetes problem in this country. It stands to reason that if the med you've been on for years (decades!) makes you sluggish and dull, you're not exactly going to have the motivation to exercise or eat well. In fact, you may binge on junk food as that's the only "pleasure" you have left in your life. When you factor this in with the effects of antipsychotics which DIRECTLY cause obesity and diabetes and you factor in how many Americans are on this stuff, the obesity epidemic suddenly has a frightening new contributing factor. Yikes!

 

PPS: A clarification about suffering making us stronger and more profound: I agree with psychiatrists that intractable, profound depression doesn't necessarily grow one's character, and may be cause for psychiatric treatment. But that level of depression is far rarer than most psychiatrists will have you believe, and there is simply NO WAY the average American ever needed to have psychiatry come into their lives as it has in the last 30 years. For 99% of the population, psychiatry is not needed.

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Altostrata

...Returning to more recent discussions, I think we musn't dismiss brain imaging research, observation of phenomena can sometimes lead to useful theory and insight, but we do need to be very sceptical and think critically about the claims that are made.

 

Yes, a lot of it might turn out to be rubbish, but overall it can also add to our accumalated knowledge and understanding, and I think that is a good thing.

 

Bright.

 

I completely agree with this. But we need to look at these studies as preliminary investigations. A red flag to me is if the researchers' conclusions -- leaps of intuition often not warranted by the evidence -- are that any of the "big 4" neurohormones were responsible for the findings. There are hundreds of hormones that affect emotion and behavior. Findings that serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, or GABA are key is too predetermined, indicating a bias on the part of the researchers to support the "chemical imbalance" theory. They didn't look at the hundreds of other hormones! There's still a lot of that going around in the research community, since it takes years to plan and carry out studies.

 

 

....

PPS: A clarification about suffering making us stronger and more profound: I agree with psychiatrists that intractable, profound depression doesn't necessarily grow one's character, and may be cause for psychiatric treatment. But that level of depression is far rarer than most psychiatrists will have you believe, and there is simply NO WAY the average American ever needed to have psychiatry come into their lives as it has in the last 30 years. For 99% of the population, psychiatry is not needed.

 

Completely agree, and I say that as a person who had experienced fairly severe depression since childhood.

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cinephile

Almost forgot:

 

Psychiatry is casting about for a raison d'etre now that chemical imbalance is dead. The theory that antidepressants stimulate neurogenesis -- lack of neurogenesis being responsible for depression -- is one of the candidates. Hence, the focus on glial cells.

 

Last year, it was all serotonin and receptors, this year, it's all glial cells and neurogenesis.

 

Hint: NONE of the studies showing antidepressants stimulate neurogenesis have compared this to natural causes of neurogenesis, such as exercise or reading good books.

 

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! You are totally onto the con, Alto. Many of the "dissident" psychiatrists are realizing that, much to their chagrin, the biological model of psychiatry will never die. It's here to stay. And what's keeping it alive are the new theories you mentioned. For us, we can so clearly see the tortured logic in these theories. It's like psychiatry is on a big Easter egg hunt: the psychiatrists all cut out into the woods for a rousing romp and come back triumphantly with their candy-colored Easter egg theories. "Oooh! I found one!" says one psychiatrist, "It's neurogenesis!"

 

"Ooh ooh! I found one too!" screams another one, "it's neurotransmitters!"

 

And on and on. I'm still amazed at how most of psychiatry thinks (and acts) like 8-year-olds.

 

I honestly think that we excel in only one thing in this country these days: projecting the illusion that we're onto something big and that big results are happening or on the way. It happened in the economy/financial sector (the "big" housing bubble just projected the illusion that the economy was healthier than it was, and loans/credit for overworked and underpaid Americans projected the illusion that they could "afford" the good life) and it's happening all over medicine with all kinds of biased studies, bogus trials, and hot-air theories that promise "better living through chemistry." Yucko.

 

Basically, those in power are just getting savvier and savvier at covering up the fact that they don't know sh*t and they're no good at reinventing the wheel, or even improving upon it. Do they use their IQ to actually do HARD WORK and come up with unique solutions? Of course not -- they use their IQ to come up with new ways to fool us. The best and brightest largely don't go into politics, economics, or medicine anymore. They go into advertising or business. Double yucko.

 

HOW did we get here again?

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Rhiannon

:-)

 

I love this forum.

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alexjuice

PS: I think the anhedonic effects of SSRIs is a major contributing factor to the obesity/diabetes problem in this country. It stands to reason that if the med you've been on for years (decades!) makes you sluggish and dull, you're not exactly going to have the motivation to exercise or eat well. In fact, you may binge on junk food as that's the only "pleasure" you have left in your life. When you factor this in with the effects of antipsychotics which DIRECTLY cause obesity and diabetes and you factor in how many Americans are on this stuff, the obesity epidemic suddenly has a frightening new contributing factor. Yikes!

 

Sure happened to me.

 

I was completely exhausted on ADs + atypicals. Wiped out. I ate like crap. I actually was least heavy when I was partying. When I wasn't drinking, it seems the next vice in need of satiation called for cakes, cookies, chocolate, fast food, and on and on.

 

I went from 145 lbs to 235 lbs in under one year (9 mos) when I was 19 years old (dandy lil nasty called zyprexa).... And nobody sounded any alarms. In fact, those treating me seemed to think they were doing so fairly well... afterall, i started sleeping a whole lot more. :-(

 

Also, I don't think I've talked too much about this on the board, but I know a lot of the NAMI folks in my city, we have an ICCD clubhouse... I've seen some really sad stuff. I know a lot of people here with Diabetes, host of antipsychotic induced medical problems.

 

Something else... There are these 'peer support' positions at the big state asylum (hospital, i guess) reserved for formerly hospitalized individuals currently 'managing' their symptoms. The clubhouse folks dream about these openings. The asylum uses NAMI, the primary funding source of the clubhouse, to recruit part-time, permanently medicated, professional patients to counsel the current inpatients on life after release. These jobs offer 25 hrs a week at minimum wage, so one can work at the aslyum and still keep disability/SSI or whatever other benefits they need for living. Thus they're really desirable cuz that $900 a month goes a long way for people on such strict incomes. $900/month, when you're barely scraping by, pretty much assures conformity to the company line as well. Of course, the company line boils down to, "always take your meds."

 

Related to the asylum... In hybrid 12-step meetings (DRA - Dual Recovery Anonymous - sponsored by an asylum funded organization) I've witnessed people vibrate, twitch, spasm, weep, engage in repitive movements, and, of course, continually relapse with recreational drugs, most frequently cocaine (often crack cocaine) and alcohol... So sad. Relapse rates at this group are horrific, even compared to AA which, frankly, isn't inspiringly effective at getting alcoholics clean and sober - professionals put AA's longterm success rate between 5 and 10%....

 

Finally, at DRA, it's alarming the degree to which crack cocaine is disproportionately abused among those on schizo-level doses of atypicals -- there is nothing more messy in the US than the crack underworld.

 

Finally, no surprise, every one I know on schizo-doses of atypicals smokes cigarettes.

 

Despite a good bit of commonality in our vices and 'diagnoses', I never felt comfortable at these meetings for recovering drug addicts convinced of the need for daily dosing with heavy Drugs.

 

Alex

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