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Probiotics and gut health

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Hibari

Has anyone heard of or used a product called RESTORE?  My acupuncturist has mentioned it to me and I was curious about it.  It is supposed to help with gut health and leaky gut.

 

I am not promoting the product but I thought it sounded interesting.  I won't add anything till I am off my last medication. 

 

http://blog.restore4life.com/questions-answers-about-health/

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savinggrace

Hello,

 

I just did a search and I know there is a lengthy discussion somewhere here about probiotics during tapering but I can't seem to find it.  Can anyone direct me to it?  I have terrible GI problems, and unless I fix my gut, I am not going to be able to successfully taper much more.  I took 1/2 t. of homemade sauerkraut juice 2 nights ago, didn't sleep, and had gut pain and diarrhea all day the next day.

 

I know this is a tricky issue and individual for everyone but maybe if I see one particular strain or brand of probiotic enough, I will have the courage to try it.  I have dairy and mold allergies, so yogurt is out for me.  I knew the sauerkraut juice was "iffy".

 

Thanks for any help.

 

Grace
 

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savinggrace

I just had a dietician do an interesting test with me...It was a urine test that measured microbial organic acids.  I wasn't too surprised by the results but I am over-whelmed at the supplements I would need to take to fix any of them. (She understands why I can't)  Given my severe GI illness, and ridiculously short list of foods I eat, and history, I was not at all surprised to see that the fungal and bacterial markers in my gut were sky high.  I NEED to improve my gut health so bad.  I have read (and contributed to) this whole thread.  Not very many people write about pro-biotics DURING tapering.  A week ago I got the flu and in an attempt to get through it w/ no prescriptions, I irrigated with tea tree oil (which I have done in the past) gargled with oregano oil (also done in the past ) and knowing that oregano oil interacts w/ a lot of drugs, I started gargling w/ hydrogren peroxide.  (wicked sore throat)  Well, I went into extreme w/d after just two days of this...perhaps 6 drops in all of tea tree oil, 4 or so drops of oregano oil , and 4 capfuls of hydrogen peroxide over 2 days.  I didn't sleep a wink; was literally up for 48 hours!  I stopped using all the listed things and I slept and was back to my usual tapering misery, along with the flu.  Now I hear, though it's not like I haven't known, that my dysbiosis in my gut is so bad that nothing is likely to get better unless I improve it.  I am terrified of all supplements.  I was a CRAZY PERSON by day two of using the above things.  I hadn't take any pain reducers for the fever or headache, just the listed oils/peroxide.  My dietician is recommending I start extremely slowly with the newest thing, I think, on the pro-biotic scene, "dirt-based" or "earth-based" pro-biotics.  She said start w/ a few grains if need be.  I am terrified.  My B12 level is non-existent (I knew that) as is my Vitamin C and Vitamin D.  I have known all these things but have stayed away from them (and don't get them from foods for specific reasons), in my continued resolve to reduce my drug load.   Can I ever be successful tapering if I don't work on rebalancing my very sick gut?  How do I manage to taper or even hold when the foods/supplements I desperately need make me unhinged so quickly?  Does anyone use pro-biotics successfully during tapering????

 

Thank you to the person who directed me here.  I couldn't find this thread a week ago though I signed up to follow it.  I am wondering if email notifications of followed threads are still occuring?

 

Grace

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Marmot

I want to add my probiotics story to this thread in case it's useful to someone.  This might appear as TMI to anyone who hasn't experienced these problems! I had bad constipation for as long as I can remember, like before age 6. I eventually had a doc who listened when I was around 20. It was getting worse, some days I'd be so plugged up that I couldn't eat. Conventional stuff like water, exercise, fibre had no effect. She got me on PEG everyday with occasional laxatives which got me going a few times a week, but it was not ideal.  A few years later I experimented with probiotics, started low and gradually increased them. I managed to stop the PEG/laxatives and was eventually going to the bathroom like everyone else. Huge relief. I tried a bunch of probiotics, the three that have worked for me over the years are: Active Balance, Renew Life, and Garden of Life. There are a lot of useless ones out there, so read around before wasting money.  I need to take 2-4 high potency ones a day, so it's pricey, but probiotics are the only natural health product I've taken that I'm sure are not a placebo for me, and I don't tolerate sauerkraut. If I stop taking these, then after a few weeks the same problems start to return. DIFFERENT THINGS WORK FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE THOUGH. 

 

I'm now playing around with diet to see if that could improve my energy. Unfortunately there's no quality research in that area, just many random theories so it's a long road of trial and error. 

 

That was embarrassing to write about online, but maybe someone will find it helpful someday!

 

Marmot

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savinggrace

Marmot,

 

Thanks for writing this.  My question is, have you ever had the feeling that the probiotics were messing with your ability to taper?  I have taken small doses that seem to intensify w/d symptoms almost immediately.

 

Do you rotate the probiotics you use or do you use one for a while and then switch to another.  BTW, constipation and bloating are my two biggest problems.  I have had several tests showing a  lot of bad bacteria/fungus in my gut.

 

Thanks for sharing...not TMI for this desperate reader!

Grace

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Marmot
2 hours ago, savinggrace said:

My question is, have you ever had the feeling that the probiotics were messing with your ability to taper?  I have taken small doses that seem to intensify w/d symptoms almost immediately

 

Hey Grace,

 

Sorry you're going through all of that. I read your other post too, the thing is, I never tried to find out whether stopping the probiotics would change my tapering process. I don't even rotate them. The only side effect that I can really attribute to the probiotics are vivid dreams if I take extra ones right before bed. Not distressing dreams, but it indicates that they are influencing my mind somehow. Again no idea if they help or harm my mood. 

 

Most of this gut stuff has not been properly tested, so I'm just going on the idea of "listen to my body" and "don't trust people who are trying to sell me things". I tried some gut supplements and found they had zero effect on me, so I tossed them. We're all different, and there's no scientific evidence anyway, so all I can do is share my story. 

 

I did get a couple of books, out of hope and despair for something which might help with fatigue and concentration, but I'm looking at it as a free-for-all. I'm trying GAPS on and off these months to see if it helps, because some people swear by it, but I have no reason to believe anything in Dr. Campbell Mcbride's book. I see her explanations as wildly unfounded, so I skipped right to the recipes section. Two food related things which could be helping my mood right now are, staying away from sugar and processed foods, but I'm not even certain about that yet. 

 

I really hope that no one found this offensive :unsure: it's just my current personal view on the gut stuff!

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savinggrace

No offense taken at all Marmot.  In fact, I quite agree with you.  I can research 24/hours/day and find "opinions" and conclusions all over the place that conflict with each other.  For the most part, I try to listen to my body and draw my own conclusions.  Boy, do I wish I had never stopped taking pro-biotics, Vitamin D, magnesium and fish oil.  Had I not stopped they would have been a regular part of my body's detoxing/withdrawal now, but I did stop, years ago, and now I can't add any of them in w/o getting severely increased w/d symptoms almost immediately.

 

One clarification, if I may....are you taking the above 3 probiotics concurrently (a different brand per day or all 3 brands in rotation) I am beginning to wonder if combining different probiotics would be a better approach for me as I have no idea which bacteria I need and they are all different.  I have consulted 2 so-called "experts", one a dietician, and the other a functional medicine doctor, and one of them gave me one choice and the other one gave me one I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole after reading about it.  BTW, the GAPS diet landed me in the emergency room on day 4.  I didn't know about histamine intolerance then, but had I knows, I would have avoided an ER visit feeling like I was having a heart attack.  After all the expensive tests were run, and there we no findings, I asked the doctor if this new diet could have caused it.  What a joke!  Even my GI doesn't know what the GAPS diet is.  I stopped the diet, and I was better.  (it also could have been "die-off" but sometimes I wonder if "die-off" is real as well; maybe it's just a term that means something is making you very sick)  VSL probiotics (a tine portion of a capsule) gave me the same heart symptoms, but as soon as I connected the dots and stopped the VSL (I think I took 2 tiny doses) the symptoms were gone.

 

I am on my own here.  It is a full time job and I feel awful.  If only I could get these drugs out of me faster, but I know where that would land me...in the hospital...being pumped full of more drugs.  And so I suffer with no end in sight.

 

Thanks for reading my stuff and trying to help.

 

Grace

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powerback
13 hours ago, savinggrace said:

No offense taken at all Marmot.  In fact, I quite agree with you.  I can research 24/hours/day and find "opinions" and conclusions all over the place that conflict with each other.  For the most part, I try to listen to my body and draw my own conclusions.  Boy, do I wish I had never stopped taking pro-biotics, Vitamin D, magnesium and fish oil.  Had I not stopped they would have been a regular part of my body's detoxing/withdrawal now, but I did stop, years ago, and now I can't add any of them in w/o getting severely increased w/d symptoms almost immediately.

 

One clarification, if I may....are you taking the above 3 probiotics concurrently (a different brand per day or all 3 brands in rotation) I am beginning to wonder if combining different probiotics would be a better approach for me as I have no idea which bacteria I need and they are all different.  I have consulted 2 so-called "experts", one a dietician, and the other a functional medicine doctor, and one of them gave me one choice and the other one gave me one I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole after reading about it.  BTW, the GAPS diet landed me in the emergency room on day 4.  I didn't know about histamine intolerance then, but had I knows, I would have avoided an ER visit feeling like I was having a heart attack.  After all the expensive tests were run, and there we no findings, I asked the doctor if this new diet could have caused it.  What a joke!  Even my GI doesn't know what the GAPS diet is.  I stopped the diet, and I was better.  (it also could have been "die-off" but sometimes I wonder if "die-off" is real as well; maybe it's just a term that means something is making you very sick)  VSL probiotics (a tine portion of a capsule) gave me the same heart symptoms, but as soon as I connected the dots and stopped the VSL (I think I took 2 tiny doses) the symptoms were gone.

 

I am on my own here.  It is a full time job and I feel awful.  If only I could get these drugs out of me faster, but I know where that would land me...in the hospital...being pumped full of more drugs.  And so I suffer with no end in sight.

 

Thanks for reading my stuff and trying to help.

 

Grace

Hi SG sorry for your troubles ,I suffer with gas a lot and had an attack on a plane yesterday so quite the experience lol,luckily it was a short flight .

I have a question ,when they do these tests do they follow up in a few months with another test after some recommended changes to diet . 

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savinggrace

Are you referring to the heart tests I mentioned above? The No, they suggested a stress test (which meant an overnight stay) and I declined and left. As far as diet goes, I have not found a doctor yet who knows anything about nutrition, but the basics. . My suspicion is that they know so little that they only “go there” when there is a scientific correlation between certain foods and a condition. Talking about leaky gut, histamine intolerance or food allergies is a total waste of time. Even alternative/functional medicine doctors are shockingly ignorant. The cynical side of me thinks it’s easier and faster to pass out pills than work with someone and their diet. Of course, this is reinforced because so many people would rather take a pill than change their diet. Those of us who refuse the meds are labeled non- ompliant or even hypochondriacs!  I am also finding dietitians to be “one trick ponies”. The truth is no one will take the time to work with the sickest among us. 

 

Grace

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savinggrace

Powerback,  One more answer to your question. I generally don’t need, or want, follow-up tests because my body will let me know really fast what is helping and what doesn’t. I tolerate no supplements right now, and the diet changes are easy enough to assess if they help or hurt. These tests are expensive and generally dietitians and doctors just recommend pills and supplements because I have already eliminated most foods...just to ease the symptoms of a leaky gut.

 

Grace

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Marmot
On 06/02/2018 at 4:16 PM, savinggrace said:

One clarification, if I may....are you taking the above 3 probiotics concurrently (a different brand per day or all 3 brands in rotation) I am beginning to wonder if combining different probiotics would be a better approach for me as I have no idea which bacteria I need and they are all different.  I have consulted 2 so-called "experts", one a dietician, and the other a functional medicine doctor, and one of them gave me one choice and the other one gave me one I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole after reading about it.  BTW, the GAPS diet landed me in the emergency room on day 4.  I didn't know about histamine intolerance then, but had I knows, I would have avoided an ER visit feeling like I was having a heart attack.  After all the expensive tests were run, and there we no findings, I asked the doctor if this new diet could have caused it.  What a joke!  Even my GI doesn't know what the GAPS diet is.  I stopped the diet, and I was better.  (it also could have been "die-off" but sometimes I wonder if "die-off" is real as well; maybe it's just a term that means something is making you very sick)  VSL probiotics (a tine portion of a capsule) gave me the same heart symptoms, but as soon as I connected the dots and stopped the VSL (I think I took 2 tiny doses) the symptoms were gone.

 

Hey Grace,

 

To answer your question, I just take one brand now - their primal defense ultra. It might be too much for starters though. Years ago, I started with probiotic soy yogurt containers. 

 

Your histamine experience sounds terrible! I'm glad you were able to figure out what the cause was even though everyone else couldn't. Ya, it seems to be uncharted territory...which might also mean that the diet is nonsense. I had a histamine reaction too from GAPS, but not as intense as yours, so I made some changes and cut out the fermented veggies and it became tolerable. Then I got angry at GAPS because there's no science and it's so restrictive. But then when I stopped GAPS for two weeks, I felt much worse even though I was eating typically healthy foods that I love. So I'm back on GAPS for now, as of two days ago. I accept that it could have been coincidence, but I'm stuck. I decided to just choose a path and try it for awhile without getting too caught up in it. If I ever get a better sense of what's going on between me and food I'll write on the diet thread. 

 

I'm really wishing you the best in your journey Grace and hope that you can figure out a way through this without too much stress. :)

 

Marmot

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ChessieCat

Found this in another topic:

 

On 10/12/2013 at 9:24 AM, GiaK said:

just a note of caution...people with histamine intolerance can have problems tolerating probiotics...and I'm finding there are a lot of us with histamine issues...

 

I haven't been able to find a single strain I tolerate...

 

before I discovered the histamine intolerance I did a lot of probiotics...may have been in part why my withdrawal lasted so long...who knows...but I do think they actually made the histamine issue worse...that said, they did heal my gut in some (at the very least) superficial (but very noticeable) ways...(severe IBS disappeared etc)...so it's hard to know if they helped more or hindered more in the end...

 

I hope to be able to reintroduce them some day...it's clear that they'd be helpful if I could tolerate them...

 

when I had dozens of symptoms it was hard to know what made me worse...and in retrospect I was taking a lot of stuff that was exacerbating the histamine issues...it's taken years to tease all that out

 

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bheb

Interesting, I had some issues tolerating probiotics but wasn't sure that was the culprit. I cut them out anyway.

 

I have yet to try the low-histamine diet, so I might do that before I reintroduce probiotics again. 

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cloud23

Interesting conversation about the histamine intolerance and probiotics.

 

I decided to try probiotics a week ago. I did it 3days in a row, then I had wierd fear and anxiety for no reasons.. so I stopped.

 

I tried it again today and same thing...

Going to stay away from probiotic pills for now.

 

I'll look into this low-histamine diet as well. But I'm causious on try new things at the moment.

 

I am getting a microboiom (poop test) test done. Waiting on results. Curious to what it will say. But I'm going to be cautious on what the nutritionist/Naturopath recommends for it...

 

Regards,

Cloud

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DaisyBell

I highly recommend the Monash University's FODMAP diet for people suffering from IBS (but note I don't have histamine issues). You can even buy an app to help with food choices. 

 

I also strongly advocate the use of specific strains of probiotics and prebiotics. Like people, each probiotic strain acts very differently to the other e.g. Lactobacillus Rhamnosus LGG is different to Lactobacillus Rhamnosus HN001. Some of the effects of probiotics can be profound - but note, it is not a magic pill. SO it will not cure you of everything. Also I'm four years out, so it's good timing for me to really feel the effects of probiotics without the extreme symptoms of withdrawal drowning them out.

 

So here are some recommendations that are worth researching (note - check the strain to see if suitable e.g. if histamine producing, D- Lactate producing, and definitely check if you've got SIBO)

  • Lactobacillus Plantarum 299v (gets you regular - so probably more IBS-C)
  • Lactobacillus Rhamnosus LGG (good for mood and gut)
  • Lactobacillus Rhamnosus HN001 (calming - also recommend for women concerned about postpartum depression)
  • Mutaflor 
  • Lactobacillus Fermentum ME3 
  • Lactobacillus Reuteri DSM 17938 and ATCC PTA 6475

Lactobacillus Gasseri and Bifidobacterium types are also good.  Some people try soil based organisms, like Prescript Assist but I haven't. The formula has changed so the previous research (and success of it) no longer applies to the new formula. Please also note that probiotic  compete against each other e.g Lactobacillus competes against Bifidobacterium. So use one family at a time and rotate every 1/2 weeks to get variety).

 

Prebiotics are very important. If you have IBS avoid inulin and high fibre though. Check out FODMAP guidance on it. You can try fibre from recommended veggies... like keeping potato skins on. Also look at resistant starches.

 

Eat lots of fermented foods. But sadly sauerkraut / Kombucha are high in fodmaps - if you got IBS and are following the FODMAP diet. Sourdough could be ok. Lactose free yogurts would be very good. If you've got ideas on this please share!

 

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wanttosurvive

Hi, 

 

I am over 9 months off drugs. I am just slowly and slowly getting better. I am even sensitive to omega 3 and magnesium, therefore hesitate to use any supplement. I rather prefer to eat healthy. But approximately a  month earlier I got diarrhea and I used an oral probiotic. The results were perfect for my gut, also I noticed an improvement in DR/DP in those days. Afterwards I decided to use the oral probiotic as a supplement. Within a few days I understood that when I take the probiotic at first it just makes me uneasy and then a little drowsy. Consequently I started to take the probiotic just before bed with my chamomile tea. My rutine for the evening is as follows: a cup of milk at 9 p.m. and a small cup of chamomile tea just before bed, which is generally 12 p.m. When taken with chamomile tea I do not feel any side effect of the probiotic and I can easy fall asleep. Cortisol awakenings are only in waves and premenstrual periods, which happen at 5 or  6 a.m. Other days I generally sleep without interruption and wake up at 7-7,5 a.m.

 

The probiotic I take contains Lactobacillus acidophilus LA-5 and Bifidobacterium animalis subsp. lactis BB-12. The recommended dose for adults is 1 or 2 capsules. But the recommended dose for ages 4-10 is 1 capsule and I take 1 capsule. This means indeed I take the pediatric dosage. 

 

Overall, the obvious change happened in my gut. I no more get bloating, neither constipation, nor diarrhea. In regard to mental issures, I think I have seen a little improvement in DR/DP, but I do not know it is related with the probiotics, since time goes on and recovery happens on its own. But in the long run, I think it has lots of benefits, so it is wise to take any supplement, which do not activate me. 

 

But here is  my question, should I need to  lower the dose? It is a capsule but it also has liquid forms, I can take it. My problem is terrible morning anxiety. I do not know whether it has any effect in morning anxiety. I did not notice a remarkable difference, because I always have terrible morning anxiety. Ther pattern is typical: I wake up 7-7,5 a.m. in a tolerable  mood generally but between 8 and 9 a.m. horrible anxiety comes and after 10 a.m. DR/DP comes..... Any idea on its possible effect on morning anxiety?

 

Thanks, 

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