Probiotics and gut health

[FeralCatman]

Here's an interesting article from Harvard medical School about the gut brain connection and depression and anxiety

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/the-gut-brain-connection

[papaloapan]

I'm completely off psych meds (7 months), I developed histamine intolerance which caused high levels of histamine in my gut which caused severe leaky gut which is about not be able to absorb nutrients from food, also called malabsorption. I found that probiotics are one of the top 3 supplements to heal leaky gut (link at the end) but regular probiotics or the great majority of probiotics are very high in histamine. So my question is, has anyone found the right probiotics (from fermented food) or probiotic supplement for histamine intolerance? (which has to be a probiotic low in histamine). And not only found it, but also taken it for a while and that it has already given good results in healing leaky gut? I know that probiotics are available in supplements and also in natural fermented foods like kefir, sauerkraut, kombucha tea, kimchi, or miso.

 

Leaky gut is different from IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome), IBS is a symptom of leaky gut, leaky gut is the cause of IBS.

 

Link of Dr Ruscio's website in which he mentions the top 3 supplements that heal leaky gut with the research/scientific backing that supports it. The supplements are probiotics, l-glutamine and vitamin D/safe sun exposure, here is the link: https://drruscio.com/leaky-gut-supplements/

[savinggrace]

I, too, developed histamine intolerance somewhere in the middle of my taper which has nearly stopped due to iatrogenic illness. I have not found any pre- or pro-biotic and fermented food of any kind  makes me worse. I have severe malabsorption. I cannot bring my vitamin D level above 24 with sun only. I do not absorb D vitamins. They are fat soluble and many are high histamine. I have had to resort to vitamin B12 self-injections w/ very small folinic acid supplement as I was dangerously low in both. I try to get the other nutrients I need through food, though my diet is the same every day (very little variation).  My gut motility improved with the B12. 
 

I like Dr. Ruscio. I will check out your link. Thanks. Interesting about sunshine. (Dermatologists hate this increasingly new awareness about the benefits of VD from sunlight vs. supps)

 

Best

Grace

[savinggrace]

Papaloapam, This was posted this morning on another forum I participate in. Maybe it will give you something new to consider?

 

There is a list of probiotics that produce histamine, those that degrade it, and those that are neutral. I have seen the list from several sources including theGutDoctor.com and the BulletproofExcecutive.com, as well as others. I have included that list here. I too have histamine issues, but I can take the product "Bifido Maximus" probiotics from the Gut Doctor. Dr. Grace Liu of the Gut Institute says that her Bifido Maximus probiotics degrade oxalates as well. Here is the list:

 

Mucous producing:

Lacto casei, lacto Reuter’s, lacto Bulgarians

 

Mucous Neutral:

Streptococcus Thermophilus, Lacto Rhamnosis,

 

Mucous Degrading:

Bifidobacterium Infantis, Bifidobacterium Longum, Lactobacillus Plantarum

 

 

 

_._,_._,_

 

 

_._,_._,_

[Gigi68]

I have been tapering off of Mirtazapine for two years. Early in my taper I often had severe diarrhea. I started taking the probiotic Flora Symmetry and it helped immensely. Later I started alternating it with HistaminX which I still do. Both are low histamine probiotics. I don’t have leaky gut so don’t know if these would help for that. 

[savinggrace]

Did this interfere with your taper? I have found that pro and pre-biotics ramp up withdrawal. 

[Gigi68]

No it hasn’t bothered me. I have recently started using the prebiotic inulin which also seems to be ok. I’m lucky that I can take supplements without any trouble. 

[savinggrace]

Thank you Gigi. I am on 3 meds and ultra-sensitive. Pre and probiotics interact with the neurotransmitters in my gut so I have tried many but always get worse. Thank you for answering. I do have leaky gut and SIBO and IBS as well. 

[LeoD]

Hi All, 

What do we think about psycobiotics in tapering, specifically PS.128, which claims to "balance" serotonin and dopamine in the gut and help with a variety of conditions, including depression and anxiety? I've been taking it for 6 days now and... mixed results. Sometimes I feel that it actually makes my symptoms worse, but not sure. 

[Estman]

On 2/15/2023 at 6:02 PM, savinggrace said:

Papaloapam, This was posted this morning on another forum I participate in. Maybe it will give you something new to consider?

 

There is a list of probiotics that produce histamine, those that degrade it, and those that are neutral. I have seen the list from several sources including theGutDoctor.com and the BulletproofExcecutive.com, as well as others. I have included that list here. I too have histamine issues, but I can take the product "Bifido Maximus" probiotics from the Gut Doctor. Dr. Grace Liu of the Gut Institute says that her Bifido Maximus probiotics degrade oxalates as well. Here is the list:

 

Mucous producing:

Lacto casei, lacto Reuter’s, lacto Bulgarians

 

Mucous Neutral:

Streptococcus Thermophilus, Lacto Rhamnosis,

 

Mucous Degrading:

Bifidobacterium Infantis, Bifidobacterium Longum, Lactobacillus Plantarum

 

 

 

_._,_._,_

 

 

_._,_._,_

I went to the doctor and everything indicates that I have developed Atrophic Gastritis
Like not having enough stomach acid or enzymes.
Severe nausea and flatulence are common
I'm taking probiotics again, but I don't know if they'll work or if they'll make things worse.
I did a SIBOL breath test at the doctor, but it was negative.
I also seem to have problems with histamine
I have followed a low fodmap diet for a few months but it has not eliminated the problem.
Yesterday I took the digestive enzymes prescribed by the doctor, but it seemed to get worse.
My duodenum is redder than it should be and it shows inflammation
There is also weakness, a lot of nausea and a very depressed mood.
I don't know what would help me.
For a while, like lactic acid probiotics have helped, then again not
I can't even eat anymore because most things have a harmful effect

[Estman]

On 2/15/2023 at 6:02 PM, savinggrace said:

Papaloapam, This was posted this morning on another forum I participate in. Maybe it will give you something new to consider?

 

There is a list of probiotics that produce histamine, those that degrade it, and those that are neutral. I have seen the list from several sources including theGutDoctor.com and the BulletproofExcecutive.com, as well as others. I have included that list here. I too have histamine issues, but I can take the product "Bifido Maximus" probiotics from the Gut Doctor. Dr. Grace Liu of the Gut Institute says that her Bifido Maximus probiotics degrade oxalates as well. Here is the list:

 

Mucous producing:

Lacto casei, lacto Reuter’s, lacto Bulgarians

 

Mucous Neutral:

Streptococcus Thermophilus, Lacto Rhamnosis,

 

Mucous Degrading:

Bifidobacterium Infantis, Bifidobacterium Longum, Lactobacillus Plantarum

 

 

 

_._,_._,_

 

 

_._,_._,_

I went to the doctor and everything indicates that I have developed Atrophic Gastritis
Like not having enough stomach acid or enzymes.
Severe nausea and flatulence are common
I'm taking probiotics again, but I don't know if they'll work or if they'll make things worse.
I did a SIBOL breath test at the doctor, but it was negative.
I also seem to have problems with histamine
I have followed a low fodmap diet for a few months but it has not eliminated the problem.
Yesterday I took the digestive enzymes prescribed by the doctor, but it seemed to get worse.
My duodenum is redder than it should be and it shows inflammation
There is also weakness, a lot of nausea and a very depressed mood.
I don't know what would help me.
For a while, like lactic acid probiotics have helped, then again not
I can't even eat anymore because most things have a harmful effect

[savinggrace]

7 hours ago, Estman said:

I went to the doctor and everything indicates that I have developed Atrophic Gastritis
Like not having enough stomach acid or enzymes.
Severe nausea and flatulence are common
I'm taking probiotics again, but I don't know if they'll work or if they'll make things worse.
I did a SIBOL breath test at the doctor, but it was negative.
I also seem to have problems with histamine
I have followed a low fodmap diet for a few months but it has not eliminated the problem.
Yesterday I took the digestive enzymes prescribed by the doctor, but it seemed to get worse.
My duodenum is redder than it should be and it shows inflammation
There is also weakness, a lot of nausea and a very depressed mood.
I don't know what would help me.
For a while, like lactic acid probiotics have helped, then again not
I can't even eat anymore because most things have a harmful effect

https://www.healthline.com/health/atrophic-gastritis#risk-factors

[UncleLeroy]

Was looking into weight gain, bloating, and metabolic syndrome in relation to olanzapine/Zyprexa.

 

Found some interesting links researching the use of probiotics and thought this might the place to share the info.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34046717/

 

https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/48/4/850/6586008?login=false

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8047500/

 

[Estman]

1 hour ago, UncleLeroy said:

Was looking into weight gain, bloating, and metabolic syndrome in relation to olanzapine/Zyprexa.

 

Found some interesting links researching the use of probiotics and thought this might the place to share the info.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34046717/

 

https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/48/4/850/6586008?login=false

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8047500/

 

nteresting material!
I myself do not use Olanzapine
Unfortunately, from time to time I have taken Levomepromazine
I don't use a homemade aqueous solution and have the anti-depressant packets made at the pharmacy.
The previous dose was 8mg, now I am 7.9mg because I reduced 10 days ago
The pharmacist makes a powder with glucose and I just shake it on my tongue and add water.
The previous powders were made 3-4 months ago and the last powders 2 weeks ago
I thought that maybe the crushed tablet will weaken over time and should be easier to reduce
Unfortunately, this was not the case.
6 Already on the 5th day, strong withdrawal symptoms appeared
From 7 days on, there is a bad wave again and digestion is very disturbed, there is also nausea
I have great despair and severe anxiety-depression during the wave
Like hopelessness and constant fight-flight panic.

If there was something that would ease this great despair, I wouldn't take anything at all, but I haven't found anything
Then I can't fall asleep and have strong compulsions and fears
It's the scariest thing that you can't sleep or switch off
In great trouble, I have sometimes taken half a tablet of Levomepromazine, in the hope that it will help me fall asleep
Too bad this old antipsychotic doesn't improve mood or reduce feelings of depression
I don't fall asleep until morning and I am very tormented because of it.
Often the pulse is also fast throughout the night
The next day is disgusting apathetic severe depression and drowsiness
Digestion after taking Levomepromazine initially does not disturb, it probably reduces nausea
But in the following days, it seems like stronger nausea, even though I also take the Betaine-Pepsin food supplement with meals.
Levomepromazine has a long half-life, about 30 hours
It probably lasts for several days
I've been taking half a tablet at night for an extreme fight-flight reaction, maybe once a month
At the same time, I feel that it does not help and causes more problems when it starts to leave the body
This does not alleviate the despair and strong hopelessness-depression that the wave creates in me
The only medicine that relieves it is Alprozalam or Xanax, but I haven't taken it for 4 years - it's extremely addictive.
I understand that an antipsychotic can also change digestion and the microbiome?
I wonder if a single small dose like I have taken?
I take 3-4 capsules of the Betaine-Pepsin supplement with each meal and it has relieved the gas and discomfort
Unfortunately, this has not completely solved the problem
I eat very carefully and do not eat many problematic things.
But if I reduce the dose of the antidepressant, the digestive problems flare up again.
Along with that, I also have extremely bad sleep at night, I wake up many times, I have confusing-troubling dreams and I wake up with a fast pulse-anxiety
I often wake up feeling cold and hot, plus strong nausea
Food seems to stand still, especially when lying down and at night, although I eat lightly at 6 o'clock in the evening
I wonder if the microbiome will go away immediately by reducing the dose of the antidepressant?
For some reason, the weather also plays its part, if the air pressure changes or the humidity-temperature is out of place again and nausea-gases.
My most recent microbiome test results showed higher than normal levels of E.Coli and borderline Candida and low levels of lactic acid bacteria.
Pepsinogen 1 and Pepsinogen 2 were normal, but the level of Gastrin 17 was too low.
The doctor said that if the level of Gastrin 17 is too low, it is as if there is too much stomach acid
In practice, however, taking Betaine-Pepsin relieves the symptoms?? Unintelligible

E.
 

[savinggrace]

22 minutes ago, Estman said:

nteresting material!
I myself do not use Olanzapine
Unfortunately, from time to time I have taken Levomepromazine
I don't use a homemade aqueous solution and have the anti-depressant packets made at the pharmacy.
The previous dose was 8mg, now I am 7.9mg because I reduced 10 days ago
The pharmacist makes a powder with glucose and I just shake it on my tongue and add water.
The previous powders were made 3-4 months ago and the last powders 2 weeks ago
I thought that maybe the crushed tablet will weaken over time and should be easier to reduce
Unfortunately, this was not the case.
6 Already on the 5th day, strong withdrawal symptoms appeared
From 7 days on, there is a bad wave again and digestion is very disturbed, there is also nausea
I have great despair and severe anxiety-depression during the wave
Like hopelessness and constant fight-flight panic.

If there was something that would ease this great despair, I wouldn't take anything at all, but I haven't found anything
Then I can't fall asleep and have strong compulsions and fears
It's the scariest thing that you can't sleep or switch off
In great trouble, I have sometimes taken half a tablet of Levomepromazine, in the hope that it will help me fall asleep
Too bad this old antipsychotic doesn't improve mood or reduce feelings of depression
I don't fall asleep until morning and I am very tormented because of it.
Often the pulse is also fast throughout the night
The next day is disgusting apathetic severe depression and drowsiness
Digestion after taking Levomepromazine initially does not disturb, it probably reduces nausea
But in the following days, it seems like stronger nausea, even though I also take the Betaine-Pepsin food supplement with meals.
Levomepromazine has a long half-life, about 30 hours
It probably lasts for several days
I've been taking half a tablet at night for an extreme fight-flight reaction, maybe once a month
At the same time, I feel that it does not help and causes more problems when it starts to leave the body
This does not alleviate the despair and strong hopelessness-depression that the wave creates in me
The only medicine that relieves it is Alprozalam or Xanax, but I haven't taken it for 4 years - it's extremely addictive.
I understand that an antipsychotic can also change digestion and the microbiome?
I wonder if a single small dose like I have taken?
I take 3-4 capsules of the Betaine-Pepsin supplement with each meal and it has relieved the gas and discomfort
Unfortunately, this has not completely solved the problem
I eat very carefully and do not eat many problematic things.
But if I reduce the dose of the antidepressant, the digestive problems flare up again.
Along with that, I also have extremely bad sleep at night, I wake up many times, I have confusing-troubling dreams and I wake up with a fast pulse-anxiety
I often wake up feeling cold and hot, plus strong nausea
Food seems to stand still, especially when lying down and at night, although I eat lightly at 6 o'clock in the evening
I wonder if the microbiome will go away immediately by reducing the dose of the antidepressant?
For some reason, the weather also plays its part, if the air pressure changes or the humidity-temperature is out of place again and nausea-gases.
My most recent microbiome test results showed higher than normal levels of E.Coli and borderline Candida and low levels of lactic acid bacteria.
Pepsinogen 1 and Pepsinogen 2 were normal, but the level of Gastrin 17 was too low.
The doctor said that if the level of Gastrin 17 is too low, it is as if there is too much stomach acid
In practice, however, taking Betaine-Pepsin relieves the symptoms?? Unintelligible

E.
 

Estman,

 

Do you think the digestive enzymes are really helping you? If not, then consider discontinuing them or taking a much smaller dose. Disgestive enzymes metabolize food and medicine much faster and could be affecting your medication levels. I get withdrawal effects from just one small dose but I am at the extreme end of sensitivity. I would still encourage you not to take rescue doses of anything. Eat as best you can, walk to get some exercise and try to distract yourself with whatever you can. Tell yourself that tomorrow will be better. I just had two of the best days I have had in many months and I have no idea why. I changed nothing; other than SLOWLY transitioning from brand name to generic diazepam. Throw that Xanax away. 

[Estman]

42 minutes ago, savinggrace said:

Estman,

 

Do you think the digestive enzymes are really helping you? If not, then consider discontinuing them or taking a much smaller dose. Disgestive enzymes metabolize food and medicine much faster and could be affecting your medication levels. I get withdrawal effects from just one small dose but I am at the extreme end of sensitivity. I would still encourage you not to take rescue doses of anything. Eat as best you can, walk to get some exercise and try to distract yourself with whatever you can. Tell yourself that tomorrow will be better. I just had two of the best days I have had in many months and I have no idea why. I changed nothing; other than SLOWLY transitioning from brand name to generic diazepam. Throw that Xanax away. 

I have been taking Betaine-Peosin the same way for about 3-4 weeks.
It seems to me that it reduces symptoms such as bloating and gas and the feeling of discomfort and nausea
However, digestive enzymes do not work well for me either, I don't have a shortage of them either
It seems that there is too little stomach acid and possibly bile acid as well
Does this Betaine-Pepsin also make the metabolism of clomipramine faster?
How much can it reduce absorption?
Hopefully nothing will be lost from the medicine?
If I can't digest food, it's also very bad
In addition, there is some strange stomach cramp
When I feel the stomach-intestine with my hand, it is just hard, while there is not much gas
Maybe it's a stomach cramp in the smooth muscles of the intestine and the food doesn't move forward and makes you nauseous?
What would help in this case?
 

[savinggrace]

Digestive enzymes affect the rate of absorption of anything you ingest. Anything you ingest (supplements and even foods) can affect the rate and the absorption of medications/supplements/ foods as everything “competes” for digestive and other enzymes so things will either be eliminated faster  or retained longer. 
 

There is no definitive answer to if your particular med’s effect is affected by the enzymes.  I would guess that it is but I cannot tell you if it increases or decreases the half-life. A lot of this is genetic; I am a slow metabolizer of many psych drugs and when/if I add a drug/supplement it competes

for enzymes already used so homeostasis changes. Many people can get away with this without feeling a difference. I feel a difference very quickly which is why I haven’t been able to taper much. I have had to treat some health conditions that occasionally force me to take another drug and/or supplement and it puts me into almost immediate withdrawal. 
 

I wish I could answer your questions. I get it. My gut hurts all the time. I force myself to eat. I have a pretty limited diet but I keep trying to add little bits of new foods to increase the diversity of my microbiome. 
 

As always I encourage you to not change things too much except your attempt to do self-care. It is just a reality that messing around with other meds, supplements and foods Upsets the apple cart. Don’t compare yourself to what others can do. Maybe stop trying to taper for a long while and stabilize some.  I know people on 10-12 drugs (not necessarily psych drugs) They seem to handle it okay, in the short term anyway. Our bodies and brains are all so different. Try not to take that half-pill of the anti-psychotic to sleep. It just upsets the balance even more. 
 

I have been tapering for 15 years. Health problems have prevented me from getting off these drugs. (Many of the problems caused by the drugs) I keep “chipping away” when I can.  I have reduced by about half of what my highest load was. I have had to accept a very low quality of life but I am still here and able to see my granddaughter and son weekly. They are worth it.  Just keep doing your best. Do you work with a therapist?

 

Best wishes. Many of your questions have no answers. We are all uniquely different. 
 

Grace

[Estman]

On 5/22/2023 at 9:16 PM, savinggrace said:

Digestive enzymes affect the rate of absorption of anything you ingest. Anything you ingest (supplements and even foods) can affect the rate and the absorption of medications/supplements/ foods as everything “competes” for digestive and other enzymes so things will either be eliminated faster  or retained longer. 
 

There is no definitive answer to if your particular med’s effect is affected by the enzymes.  I would guess that it is but I cannot tell you if it increases or decreases the half-life. A lot of this is genetic; I am a slow metabolizer of many psych drugs and when/if I add a drug/supplement it competes

for enzymes already used so homeostasis changes. Many people can get away with this without feeling a difference. I feel a difference very quickly which is why I haven’t been able to taper much. I have had to treat some health conditions that occasionally force me to take another drug and/or supplement and it puts me into almost immediate withdrawal. 
 

I wish I could answer your questions. I get it. My gut hurts all the time. I force myself to eat. I have a pretty limited diet but I keep trying to add little bits of new foods to increase the diversity of my microbiome. 
 

As always I encourage you to not change things too much except your attempt to do self-care. It is just a reality that messing around with other meds, supplements and foods Upsets the apple cart. Don’t compare yourself to what others can do. Maybe stop trying to taper for a long while and stabilize some.  I know people on 10-12 drugs (not necessarily psych drugs) They seem to handle it okay, in the short term anyway. Our bodies and brains are all so different. Try not to take that half-pill of the anti-psychotic to sleep. It just upsets the balance even more. 
 

I have been tapering for 15 years. Health problems have prevented me from getting off these drugs. (Many of the problems caused by the drugs) I keep “chipping away” when I can.  I have reduced by about half of what my highest load was. I have had to accept a very low quality of life but I am still here and able to see my granddaughter and son weekly. They are worth it.  Just keep doing your best. Do you work with a therapist?

 

Best wishes. Many of your questions have no answers. We are all uniquely different. 
 

Grace

Betaine/Pepsin supplements do not seem to suit me
I took them for 2 weeks with every meal
Although it reduced bloating and gas after meals, it caused irritation in the stomach
When I stopped taking the food supplement, I had worse digestion and strong gas for a few days, especially in the evening.
A few days ago, I thought I was stimulating the gallbladder with my hand, but that made the inflammation worse.
I also made a mistake and took 1 capsule of ox bile food supplement to support digestion and neuralize stomach acid, but it quickly made things worse.
It seems that I have bile reflux gastritis
If I sleep on my right side, the situation often gets worse
The same happens when I eat something spicy or something that is not suitable
This chronic gastritis is sometimes better-tolerable and then again very bad
It causes me a bad wave because I have nausea, dizziness and a depressed mood, probably from inflammation.
Apparently, I don't have hypoacidity, but rather a problem with inflammation.
Apparently, the inflamed stomach wall itself causes a feeling of unwellness.
Last night was again full of anxiety and despair, I couldn't sleep because I was also nauseous.
If the gastritis is worse, I also worry and it makes the situation even more difficult.
It frustrates me because it creates a fight-flight reaction in me - there is fear and anxiety that is not there otherwise
It usually starts when gastritis symptoms worsen
I can't reduce the antidepressant when gastritis is bad.
It's frustrating and frustrating.
Today we have a full moon, and for some reason I am always very anxious and disturbed
 

[savinggrace]

I’m sorry Estman. I understand how it feels to have such despair. 
 

Grace

[FeralCatman]

 

I had severe food intolerances and digestive issues including gastroparesis early on after stopping the Seroquel. For a brief period of time I was even reacting to a glass of water that was a little too warm or a little too cold. It had to be just the right temperature.  I had reactions to beets and butternut squash and mayonaise and Ginger and many other things. I have a holistic nutritionist that did a GI map stool test which showed that I had gut dysbiosis. My microbiome was pretty well dead. I also had a blood test done to test for diamine oxidase (DAO) levels which is the enzyme used to process dietary histamine and that also showed that it was low as well and that was the source of my histamine intolerance. Since the symptoms started it has been about a year and a half. I don't seem to have too much trouble with food now though I continue to maintain a strict low histamine diet and I was able to do all of the healing with a very simple prebiotic food based diet and no supplements other than the vitamins that I was already taking. In 7 months my DAO level was just shy of normal and I gained about 30% of my microbiome back so with this next set of tests in September my DAO should be normal and I should gain another 30 or more percent in my microbiome healing. It can be done but I have been very rigid with my diet and it does take time and quite a bit of suffering in the middle but it does get better.

 

The following article is a description of what happens to your digestive system and your body when it is subjected to the stress and high amounts of cortisol that are present during the withdrawal process in recovery. It is not addressing withdrawal directly but is actually an article about the effects of chronic stress on the body but the way it lays things out is very applicable to what many people go through during this process of recovering from these drugs and it's easy to understand.  I have read quite a few sources that layout the same basic process but this is the easiest one that I have come across to easily understand everything.

 

Cortisol and the Digestive System: Reciprocal Effects

https://www.drlamcoaching.com/blog/cortisol-and-the-digestive-system/

[savinggrace]

 

Thank you for posting this, Feral Cat.  My gut was stable (for me) for many many months.  I started transitioning from name brand valium to generic diazepam. (I couldn't afford name brand anymore; costs over 100 times more than generic) My gut is a mess now....a real mess.

 

I do eat some prebiotic foods...flaxseeds, asparagus, cocao powder, oats, apples (all in small amounts)...but I worry that they are "feeding" the bad microbes as well.  My gut hurts all the time; I can't sort out what is hurting it.  I would have to cut out all food to figure it out.  Once I tried broccoli sprouts, a super pre-biotic, and got so sick from eating a tad for 2 days.  What do you think about the use of pre-biotics while not using pro-biotics?  (with my continued use of these drugs and now this stupid, de-stabilizing transition)  I can't add supplements or anything else to my body.

 

Thanks again for sharing.

Grace

 

 

[FeralCatman]

If you have a histamine intolerance, which is common in withdrawal, then some of the foods you listed are high histamine. I posted a list of healing food and you can download it. The link is in my drug signature. The document is called 'Foods To Heal.docx'

 

I have found that sticking to a strict low histamine diet has been critical. I avoid supplements at all cost including pro-biotics. All I take is my multivitamin, vitamin D, Vitamin C, Fish Oil, and magnesium. Last year I reacted to the pro-biotic my nutritionist recommended that is for patients with histamine issues. It was too much too soon. For awhile my diet consisted of potato, asparagus, apple sauce, and eggs or chicken, and water. All boiled and softened.

 

It has taken quite a bit of time but things have gotten much better. So you may want to look into histamine intolerance and low histamine diets.

 

Mast Cell patients also have to do the low histamine diet. Here is a link all about low histamine foods. It seems to be the one everyone who has to do this refers to.

 

https://mastcell360.com/food-lists/

[savinggrace]

Thank you Feral Cat. I kind of have to do a balancing act because I follow low oxalate, low histamine, low FODMAP, no dairy, gluten etc. 

 

I am surprised you tolerate eggs. I have been afraid to eat them as the whites are high histamine and I have been shown to have egg allergy. I have to avoid cruciferous vegetables so asparagus, squash and romaine lettuce are all I eat. I am pre-diabetic so I could only eat a bite or two of potato. I eat chicken twice a day, squash, asparagus (3-4 spears only) romaine lettuce (steamed) and “muffins” made of flax, oats, 1/6 egg, cocoa, oil and water. I just recently added apple (1/4 small) and five walnuts that have been soaked for 24 hours, drained and roasted..,sometimes a thin rice cake w/a tiny bit of nut butter. Literally that is all I eat. 
 

I tried getting freshly laid, unwashed eggs from a local farmer who doesn’t use pesticides. (Lower in histamine) I am not sure if they bother me or not. I am bloated and have gut pain all the time so it’s hard to sort out. All probiotics hurt my gut. I have tried many. The few things I am eating are an attempt to encourage healthy bacteria. 
 

I do not tolerate citrus or vitamin C supps so I am deficient. I am deficient in calcium and magnesium. Calcium stops my gut completely. I have gastroparesis. As a result I am very underweight and mal-nourished. 
 

Thank you for the lists. My diet is an attempt to balance everything I need to limit otherwise I wouldn’t eat at all. I could cut out the apple and walnuts. I was attempting to add some new needed nutrients. My blood sugar is very hard to manage so most starchy things are out of the question. The muffins I make are dense in calories and good for motility. 
 

if you have any further thoughts, please let me know. 
 

Thank you. 
Eileen

[FeralCatman]

@savinggrace What I have discovered is the central issue to all of this is that none of this, including the medications, is an exact science. Mast Cell patients who eat low histamine diets vary in what each patient can tolerate and what they can't so there are no hard and fast rules only guidelines and each person has to do a lot of experimentation to find what works for them. WRT eggs, there is controversy as to whether they are high histamine or not. There are a few foods like that such as dairy. In my case I don't react to them. However I reacted to onions and butternut squash both of which should have been okay especially since I grew them organically but for awhile they were not okay. Same with ginger.

 

One thing that really saved me are these 2 links my nutritionist gave me about diets for gastroparesis. Pureed vegetables and rice saved the day and I was able to get the food in without too much suffering and got the nutrition I needed. Here are the links.

 

https://med.virginia.edu/ginutrition/wp-content/uploads/sites/199/2014/04/High-Calorie-Liquid-Diet.pdf

 

https://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/docs/per/gastroparesis-diet-tips/handout_view_patient/@@getDocument

 

If your cortisol levels are really high you may be suffering from a lack of digestive enzymes from your liver, pancreas, and kidneys which may be contributing to the issues.

 

If I think of anything else I will let you know.

 

 

[FeralCatman]

If you have the ability you may want to consult a good nutritionist and preferably a holistic nutritionist that has experience dealing with things like Mast Cell disorders and histamine intolerance. I am of course not at all qualified to evaluate or diagnose what you are going through but getting a GI map stool test done would probably be helpful because it will tell you what condition your microbiome is in as well as what your current ability to digest things like fats are as well as give you an idea of what your pancreatic enzymes are looking like as far as digestion goes. It will also tell you what the levels of bad bacteria are and can give you an indication of whether you need to test for small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). If you are in fight or flight mode and your cortisol levels are really high your body may have partially or completely shut down your digestive enzymes as part of shutting down your digestion and if that's the case then you're going to have a hard time until your body settles down a little bit. Also if your body is stressed and your cortisol levels are high then insulin production can be affected and your blood sugars are going to get dragged up no matter what you eat so since you are pre-diabetic not full blown diabetic you may need to temporarily prioritize getting in any kind of nutrition at all versus worrying excessively about your blood sugars for the short term until things settle down. Liquefying most of my food in a blender has been very helpful getting me through periods of feeling really bad. As I said I am not a medical professional and not qualified to diagnose anything but these are my thoughts regarding things that might be useful.

[FeralCatman]

On 2/14/2023 at 3:59 PM, papaloapan said:

I'm completely off psych meds (7 months), I developed histamine intolerance which caused high levels of histamine in my gut which caused severe leaky gut which is about not be able to absorb nutrients from food, also called malabsorption. I found that probiotics are one of the top 3 supplements to heal leaky gut (link at the end) but regular probiotics or the great majority of probiotics are very high in histamine. So my question is, has anyone found the right probiotics (from fermented food) or probiotic supplement for histamine intolerance? (which has to be a probiotic low in histamine). And not only found it, but also taken it for a while and that it has already given good results in healing leaky gut? I know that probiotics are available in supplements and also in natural fermented foods like kefir, sauerkraut, kombucha tea, kimchi, or miso.

 

Leaky gut is different from IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome), IBS is a symptom of leaky gut, leaky gut is the cause of IBS.

 

Link of Dr Ruscio's website in which he mentions the top 3 supplements that heal leaky gut with the research/scientific backing that supports it. The supplements are probiotics, l-glutamine and vitamin D/safe sun exposure, here is the link: https://drruscio.com/leaky-gut-supplements/

@papaloapan These are the probiotics that my nutritionist recommended for people with histamine intolerance. I was not actually able to take them however many people have and had good results.

 

https://www.seekinghealth.com/products/probiota-histaminx-60-capsules

[savinggrace]

56 minutes ago, FeralCatman said:

If you have the ability you may want to consult a good nutritionist and preferably a holistic nutritionist that has experience dealing with things like Mast Cell disorders and histamine intolerance. I am of course not at all qualified to evaluate or diagnose what you are going through but getting a GI map stool test done would probably be helpful because it will tell you what condition your microbiome is in as well as what your current ability to digest things like fats are as well as give you an idea of what your pancreatic enzymes are looking like as far as digestion goes. It will also tell you what the levels of bad bacteria are and can give you an indication of whether you need to test for small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). If you are in fight or flight mode and your cortisol levels are really high your body may have partially or completely shut down your digestive enzymes as part of shutting down your digestion and if that's the case then you're going to have a hard time until your body settles down a little bit. Also if your body is stressed and your cortisol levels are high then insulin production can be affected and your blood sugars are going to get dragged up no matter what you eat so since you are pre-diabetic not full blown diabetic you may need to temporarily prioritize getting in any kind of nutrition at all versus worrying excessively about your blood sugars for the short term until things settle down. Liquefying most of my food in a blender has been very helpful getting me through periods of feeling really bad. As I said I am not a medical professional and not qualified to diagnose anything but these are my thoughts regarding things that might be useful.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this.  Please hear this...I appreciate everything you have written here. I do not want to sound like I am dismissing anything you have written.  i have been suffering w/ digestive ailments for about 12 years.  I went to many nutritionists/functional medicine doctors but found out that the only way through this was trial-and-error.  The nutritionists/doctors want me to take supplements and/or foods that affect the blood levels of my psych meds and totally unhinge me...so I don't bother any more.   I have a cupboard full of them.  All practitioners get frustrated with me; I understand.  They don't understand, or believe, that a multi-vitamin or probiotic or cruciferous vegetable can put me in acute withdrawal.  I have stopped trying to get anyone to understand.  I know how hard I have tried; am trying.   I have waded my way through more than a decade of diet studying.  Much of what was in the links I learned long ago when first diagnosed with gastroparesis.  The trouble was, and is, a true gastroparesis diet was based a lot on "white food" that digests fast but totally shoots my blood sugar up. I had to find protein (non-dairy, soy or eggs) that I could eat so I eat organic free range chicken.   I can't even eat 1//4 c. of rice.  I know I need digestive enzymes but they metabolize my psych meds very fast and I go into acute withdrawal right away.  I can't even take a multi-vitamin.  I try to get vitamin D from the sun.  Vitamin D is a steroid-like hormone and really stimulates me so I have to limit it; I tolerate it from the sun much better.  Vitamin C and the B vitamins all detoxify and lower my medicine levels quickly. I think you get the picture.  Even pro and pre-biotics affect my med levels; I am super-sensitized.  I have not pursued a Mast cell activation syndrome diagnosis as I know I wouldn't tolerate the meds/supps anyway.  I just am getting by.

 

When my gut gets super painful, I puree my food.  I just take my regular food and add a little liquid and it is like thick soup.  It's gross but I am so sick of it, I get no pleasure from my food anyway.  It KILLS my stomach to try and digest protein but I eat 2.5-3 oz. twice a day and it meets my protein requirement (along with a few more random grams here and there.)  When I was first diagnosed with gastroparesis my bowels were not working at all.  Then I discovered ground flax and that helped immensely.  When I can keep my motility going, the pain is much less and I am able to eat more.  I have done some GI mapping and various other tests over the years, but I don't find them that useful as they recommend pre and probiotics I can't take.  The foods I eat are intentional; perhaps they are mis-guided.  I try to get some pre-biotic food in me because my GI tests do show a lot of good bacteria but they also show a lack of some good bacteria.  It is a moot point.  I do have SIBO.  I have had two tests.  I cannot take multiple rounds of anti-biotics and/or anti-microbials, so I try to just work with a SIBO diet, although i cannot completely cut out fermentable fiber as my gut stops working.

 

I am getting sicker and sicker.  I am certain I need, or could benefit from digestive enzymes, anti-microbials, pre and pro-biotics, a much bigger variety of foods and a huge amount of vitamin supplements.  I "guard" my ability to survive, first though, so I eat what I can to survive.  This may sound dramatic but my inability to taper any more than I have is caused by many things not listed here.  I try to control stress; I see a therapist weekly and do a lot of self-care and walk an hour outside every day.  I am sure my cortisol levels are sky-high all the time, but I try to control that with lifestyle.  A doctor would just throw meds/supps at me.  I am fairly certain I have thyroid issues.  They unhinge me as well.

 

I will spare you the rest of the soliliquy; I think you have been there and done that.  You tolerate supplements that I don't so that is very good.  My gut was doing better and I added in some food and then I was hit with this cross-over from brand-name valium to generic diazepam and my gut is very very bad again.  I think it is the filler.  I don't really know what to do, but the brand name valium is out of reach financially any more and even hard to find.

 

I guess I have one question....did you ever work with a nutritionist who understood your inability to eat different foods or take their supplements?  I have not found one.

 

The prognosis for me is not good.  I literally live one day at a time.  I so appreciate you willingness to help.  If any other foods/ ideas come to mind, please let me know.  Other than B12 and folate (which I have to take) I take NOTHING but my psych meds and have had to practically stop tapering because of other problems.  I am doing the best I can every day but always appreciate and consider anything new that comes along. 

 

I wish you well.  I just might try a very fresh egg this weekend.  I have a farmer who saves the newest ones for me.  I only eat 1-2 and I haven't for several months, but I do bake with them sparingly.

 

Thank you so much, Feral Cat, for your earnest attempt to help.  Because of my the mis-calculated judgment that I "put up barriers for myself by not trying things out of fear" (an unspoken, and sometimes spoken message I get often), I know how much I suffer, how hard I have tried, and that I have considered and do consider everything.

 

I wish you well.

Grace

[FeralCatman]

@savinggrace  I am very sorry you've been through so much hardship. I completely understand how you feel and  at least to a limited extent what you've been through which is of course why I said everybody is different and some people can tolerate things and other people cannot so only you know what you can and can't do. The nutritionist that I have does suggest supplements but she also do not push them on me either and to the maximum extent possible tries to do things with food only. I am lucky and that she is very open-minded and seems to have a lot of information that others do not and has had success treating people that are very hard to help otherwise . She did have me switch over to Nature Made brand vitamins which don't have a lot of fillers and tend to be better for people with gut and histamine issues but of course that's not going to be true for everybody. We still understand so little about the human body that everything that we do including the most advanced medicine that we have is still mostly trial and error and an educated guess. The same thing applies to homeopathic medicine as well as naturopathic medicine and pretty much every form of Medicine since much of what happens in the body is at the molecular and atomic and subatomic levels which we still have no way to measure in any way that makes any practical or useful sense. So you will be your best doctor  as is the case with all of us. In my case Google has been my best friend and that is where I have gotten the best information because you can get the widest variety of options and then choose for yourself whereas most practitioners have knowledge that's going to be limited to what they have time to research on their own beyond their education and of course their time is going to be limited. It sounds like you have been very thorough so there isn't much else I could really offer other than to say that if you started gaining some stability at one point which it sounds like you were then you will most likely gain it again it's just a matter of time. If I think of anything else I will certainly let you know. 😉✌️😺😺

 

 

 

[FeralCatman]

One thing I did learn is that herbs like oregano and basil and rosemary have antimicrobial properties and are good for helping reduce the effects of SIBO.  I grow my own and have them with every meal so I'm not sure if they've helped or not but they certainly didn't hurt in my case.

[Estman]

The doctor had some blood samples taken.
my Calproctectin result was 244 ug/g (normal up to 50)
it was measured from the stool.
There was no hidden blood in the stool.
Does this result automatically mean I have inflammatory bowel disease?
At the same time, I tend to be constipated and do not have diarrhea.
the doctor recommended completely giving up cereal-containing foods
Can gastritis also cause elevated Calproctein levels?
Samples showing celiac disease were negative
Nor was he lactose intolerant.
A contrast-enhanced scan showed no abnormalities in the intestines or bile ducts.
I'm worried that the doctor wants to do a colonoscopy, but I'm afraid of such procedures.
If I take probiotics, I still feel better, but not worse.
Can food intolerance, such as Histamine intolerance, cause elevated Calproctectin levels?

[savinggrace]

1 hour ago, FeralCatman said:

One thing I did learn is that herbs like oregano and basil and rosemary have antimicrobial properties and are good for helping reduce the effects of SIBO.  I grow my own and have them with every meal so I'm not sure if they've helped or not but they certainly didn't hurt in my case.

Gosh, Feral Cat. Again, such a sincere attempt to help. Thank you for affirming what I already learned (long ago). No one has the answer for me. I have to figure that out. 
 

I have used oregano and rosemary oils and they interact with my medicine. Unfortunately I have a genetic problem that affects the metabolism of my drugs. Had these genetic mutations been known (and acknowledged) 20 years ago, doctors would have known NOT to put me on these meds. So things like anti-microbials (and most other drugs, supps and many foods) are know to interfere with drugs metabolized by CYP 450 enzymes, several of which I have been tested as a poor metabolizer. This is the crux of my problem, I believe. I have tried the herb oils for my SIBO as they are anti-microbials but I react poorly to them. I am now wondering if I would tolerate fresh herbs as they likely aren’t nearly as potent. It is food for thought. No pun intended. 

This cross-over to genetic Valium is a miserable failure. My gut is so bad. It has to be the different fillers. I dont even know if I can get the brand name any more. I feel like I am in acute withdrawal..gut pain, severe air hunger, insomnia and now very low heart rate and blood pressure. 
 

I truly am at a loss. I believe I graduated with honors from Google University!  I still attend but they are running out of classes for me. 
 

I am going to consider trying fresh rosemary and oregano. I will have to grow it, won’t i? Otherwise grocery store buys will likely be high histamine? (Due to lack of freshness)  BTW, what form do you eat ginger in? Do you grow that too? Ginger is an anti-inflammatory but it too can induce drugs and I have Barrett’s esophagus so it may be too strong. I actually love ginger. 
 

I am so grateful for your time. Thank you. I wish you steady progress on your path to healing. 
 

Grace

[FeralCatman]

3 hours ago, savinggrace said:

Gosh, Feral Cat. Again, such a sincere attempt to help. Thank you for affirming what I already learned (long ago). No one has the answer for me. I have to figure that out. 
 

I have used oregano and rosemary oils and they interact with my medicine. Unfortunately I have a genetic problem that affects the metabolism of my drugs. Had these genetic mutations been known (and acknowledged) 20 years ago, doctors would have known NOT to put me on these meds. So things like anti-microbials (and most other drugs, supps and many foods) are know to interfere with drugs metabolized by CYP 450 enzymes, several of which I have been tested as a poor metabolizer. This is the crux of my problem, I believe. I have tried the herb oils for my SIBO as they are anti-microbials but I react poorly to them. I am now wondering if I would tolerate fresh herbs as they likely aren’t nearly as potent. It is food for thought. No pun intended. 

This cross-over to genetic Valium is a miserable failure. My gut is so bad. It has to be the different fillers. I dont even know if I can get the brand name any more. I feel like I am in acute withdrawal..gut pain, severe air hunger, insomnia and now very low heart rate and blood pressure. 
 

I truly am at a loss. I believe I graduated with honors from Google University!  I still attend but they are running out of classes for me. 
 

I am going to consider trying fresh rosemary and oregano. I will have to grow it, won’t i? Otherwise grocery store buys will likely be high histamine? (Due to lack of freshness)  BTW, what form do you eat ginger in? Do you grow that too? Ginger is an anti-inflammatory but it too can induce drugs and I have Barrett’s esophagus so it may be too strong. I actually love ginger. 
 

I am so grateful for your time. Thank you. I wish you steady progress on your path to healing. 
 

Grace

I bought a big bag of ginger powder and I mix half a teaspoon of it every morning with my electrolyte drink which consists of organic cranberry juice, organic apple juice, lemon juice, salt, and potassium chloride.  I also mix it in applesauce sometimes. If you haven't already perhaps you might want to check out some of dysautonomia websites and see if they have anything to offer  since there are a lot of people that seem to deal with the same things you are dealing with probably even more so than here on Surviving Antidepressants.

 

Also the herbs that I eat are fresh not concentrated I don't use herb oils of any kind and I try to eat what I grow as much as possible versus buying it from the store.

[savinggrace]

Hi again Feral,

 

I am frankly sure I  have dysautonomia as I am severely sensitized and de-regulated. Thanks for the suggestion though. Maybe there are some natural ways to control some of these ailments though I feel like it is likely all stuff I do, or have done to try to rein in my crazy sensitivities. The worst part for me, believe it or not, is feeling like I am alone to figure this out. I have no friends/family actively in my life (except my husband) as they all think I am a hypochondriac and/or don’t believe anyone’s body/brain can betray them this much. Doctors laugh at me when I tell them the truth about a lot of this so I suffer in silence, and have for a very long time. 
 

Do you think freshly grown herbs might be okay for me? Some of them are high oxalate. I might (gingerly) try some ginger powder as that might be the safest form (especially organic)

 

Hope you are having a good day. That electrolyte drink sounds good. I have only drunk water for years now. 
 

Grace

 

 

[FeralCatman]

4 hours ago, savinggrace said:

Do you think freshly grown herbs might be okay for me? Some of them are high oxalate. I might (gingerly) try some ginger powder as that might be the safest form (especially organic)

Unfortunately I can't really answer this for you one way or the other it's another one of those things where you just have to try it and a very small amount of it and hope for the best. I was fine with ginger everyday and then suddenly this February I had a bad reaction to Ginger and now all of a sudden I gave it a try again and now I can tolerate it again but I have no explanation for that at all. If you try herbs like oregano just try one leaf as they are very small and see what it does and if that's okay next day try two leaves and so on. That's how I approach everything and when I tried Ginger again recently I just tried a small pinch in a glass of water to see what would happen and then titrated the dose up just like with the medication.

[savinggrace]

Thank you Feral.  Yes, this is how I try everything.  One "crumb, speck" at a time.  I seldom get past 2 days of anything.  When so sick it is hard to figure out what is causing what.  If I could live on just water for a month or two, and start over w/ one thing, I might be able to connect some dots.  Too many variables.

 

My psych insists I go the distance on this cross-over that has me sicker than I have ever been.  Something is telling me that there is a filler in here making me sick or diluting the potency.  The trouble with just doing a cross-over from brand to generic is that I am sick but I can't identify it as withdrawal for sure...am I over-shooting or under-shooting with my generic substitution? (rhetorical question) I suspect this is acute w/d.  My psych has never had anyone as sensitive as me.  I have been up since 4 am just waiting for a few hours of sleep hopefully tonight.

 

Thanks again.  If any diet questions come to me, I may ask.  I am guilty of just sticking with the same food so I have no idea if I tolerate something and then I don't because I never feel good.  At 88#  I can't cut anything out.

 

Wishing you peace and blessings,

Grace

 

[Estman]

On 6/10/2023 at 12:17 AM, FeralCatman said:

Unfortunately I can't really answer this for you one way or the other it's another one of those things where you just have to try it and a very small amount of it and hope for the best. I was fine with ginger everyday and then suddenly this February I had a bad reaction to Ginger and now all of a sudden I gave it a try again and now I can tolerate it again but I have no explanation for that at all. If you try herbs like oregano just try one leaf as they are very small and see what it does and if that's okay next day try two leaves and so on. That's how I approach everything and when I tried Ginger again recently I just tried a small pinch in a glass of water to see what would happen and then titrated the dose up just like with the medication.

I have the same thing with ginger.
Sometimes I drink tea and there are no problems, but other times I get an upset stomach
I tried tryptophan for 4 days and it cured my digestive problems
It's a shame because L-tryptophan seems to reduce inflammation in the gut
The engine was also better.
Unfortunately, this put me in a difficult wave
It started with a migraine-like headache, followed by despair, anxiety-fear, obsessive thoughts, in addition to constant agitation and the inability to fall asleep.