☼ frasier23: Zyprexa cold turkey what now

[frasier23]

last psyc ward may2016 1mg

[frasier23]

Took 2.5 nitrazepam yesterday didny help much. I usually like to try to sleep by myself first and then if it doesnt work add a pill guess its not a good strategy

[Shep]

Thanks for the update, Frasier. It's important to note each medication, the dose, and your symptoms. 

 

You're right - it's really not a good strategy to take pills as needed, as it confuses your already destabilized central nervous system. Drugs such as nitrazepam can cause paradoxical reactions, meaning it may make your insomnia worse.

 

Please take the time to re-read your thread, as there are many non-drug coping strategies listed here. 

 

Also, please be so kind as to add a signature with your medication history - Please put your withdrawal history in signature  Many of us are still struggling with our own withdrawal, and it really helps to have all your information in your signature so we can easily know where you're at with your medications. 

 

Are you working or caring for a family? Do you have a lot of other obligations to take care of? These are important questions because if you are working and / or caring for a family, the strategy for coping may be different. I've worked through most of my tapers and now into recovery, so I had a much longer hold on my antipsychotic before I was able to finally come off. So this is also something to consider when deciding if you need to take medication for sleep.

 

[Wellness]

Frasier,

 

Your sleep will come back if you stay off the drugs, it will take time, but it will come back.

 

I slept only minutes at a time for months, and after a year, I was still waking up very frequently during the night.  After about six months off all drugs, I could sleep about 2 hours without waking up and that was enough to get a little bit of deep sleep.  Then I would sleep 15 to 30 minutes at a time during which time I got some light sleep.  I could not sleep at all during the day. This pattern continued for almost 2 1/2 to 3 years, and then I was sleeping 4 to 5 hours a night.  I am 5 1/2 years off all drugs, and I"m now sleeping about 6 hours a night and it is still getting better. 

 

To fall asleep to have to turn your brain off, so you don't want to think about anything.  You can try to think about your  breathing.  After a while, your brain becomes bored and starts to wander off.  Sometime you can fall asleep that way.  You can try to wear sunglasses a few hours before going to bed, that might help.  Sleeping in a cool, dark, and quiet room is also important.

 

Part of the reason that you are not sleeping could be because of sleeping pills (imovane) and benzodiazepines.  If you take them for more than two weeks in  a row, they don't help anymore and you can't sleep without taking more benzo.  Imovane is just like a benzo, it's the same mode of action, and they are just as addictive.

[Altostrata]

I do think the 18 hours of daylight now in Finland is contributing to frasier's sleeplessness.

[frasier23]

Ive started with theralen again 1ml per night. Cant this help me in some way as well or is it just bad? I dont think i can sleep by myself anymore. Thinking of taking theralen 2wks and then taper out if results.

[frasier23]

why is it impossible to have aid from for example Theralen? or do the CNS want to do something else and theralen just sabotage that? thought they could cooperate since healthy ppl takes it sometimes during rough periods without messing upp cns

[scallywag]

frasier, would you take 2-3 minutes to create a signature. It helps the moderators answer your question when we can see your history (medications, doses and withdrawal) all in one place.

 

You might want to keep these instruction visible when you start to follow them.

 

Instructions: How to create a signature:

1. Click on your username that is in the top right corner of this web page. Result: A list of user options appears.
    
2. Click on the option "My settings." Result: Your browser will navigate to the "My settings" page.  On the left side of the page, you'll see a vertical list of options, "Profile Settings"  "Email & Password", "Signature"
    
3. Click on the Signature  option or tab. Result: An editing window appears where you enter your signature.
    
4. When you have entered all your current and recent drugs and their doses, Click on the black button "Save changes"

 

Your question about Theralen:

 

Adding drug "A" to help with the symptoms caused by drug "B"  either as side effects or withdrawal, *might* help in the short term with the symptom. Often the addition of drug "A" doesn't help at all, and sometimes it even causes more problems.  This problem isn't only with Theralen, it applies to any other drug that acts on your CNS.

[Altostrata]

frasier, you can take Theralen or an sleep-inducing antihistamine to get over the rough spots. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimemazine

 

Often, the beneficial effect of these types of drugs wear off after a while, or they can make your sleep problems worse. If you take them regularly, you might have to taper off.

 

Is your bedroom very dark and cool? Keeping out the light is important for restoring sleep. Also, it's important to go to bed at the same time each day and get up at the same time each day.

 

If your sleep cycle is off-kilter because of the long sunlight or because you are going to bed in the early morning hours, you may wish to take melatonin about 8 p.m. every night, then turn off the lights and close the curtains to reduce light stimulation. This helps your body to create its own sleep hormone, melatonin. See

 

What is the sleep cycle?
 
Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

[frasier23]

My problem is that Im sleepy but cant sleep. I dont know if Im sleeping or not even on Theralen. Last night I dont think I slept anything but I dont know since Im so adjusted to just lay down and rest with eyes closed

[AliG]

Frasier.     This is a common symptom and one many of us have and still do struggle with . There is no easy answer. Antihistamines are perhaps not a long term answer & can turn paradoxical in withdrawal. I think what you are talking about is what I call " tired but wired " !  It can happen anytime in W/D  and is troublesome and frustrating .

 

I have found that any or most drugs for sleep make it worse in the long run. It's very easy to fall for a quick fix to " knock you out " , but it doesn't offer deep REM sleep short or long term and makes you feel less than great the next day . A  distinct " hangover effect " ensues  .  I have found that a certain amount of short - term pain is worth it in the long run , with sleep .    Eventually , it reverts back to some kind of normality . There is still a windows & waves pattern but eventually it moves on to a healing and progressive level that feels restorative .

 

The ideal is to be drug- free and natural . Sometimes, melatonin can re-set the circadian rhythm and overcome the upset caused by the drugs. It's worth trying and has helped me . Start low though, and work your way up . Supplements should always be started at a low dose in withdrawal .

Melatonin for sleep

 

Read through the link and see what you think .

Ali

[frasier23]

Thamks for support guys.

 

Alig: just feeling I cant go by 10+days with zero sleep without trying any sleep med again. Dont think my body likes this feels like I will end up in hospital however I do.

[Shep]

My problem is that Im sleepy but cant sleep. I dont know if Im sleeping or not even on Theralen. Last night I dont think I slept anything but I dont know since Im so adjusted to just lay down and rest with eyes closed

 

 

Hi, Frasier. I'm sorry you're having problems with insomnia. I too struggle with this symptom and I also have a history with antipsychotics. Not sleeping is a very common problem.

 

Please re-read what Alto and AliG have written. They are giving you suggestions for your sleep in the form of Melatonin.

 

As they mentioned, drugs like Theralen can turn paradoxical. This means they will make your insomnia worse in the long run. If you're worried about being re-hospitalized, it would be best to avoid these kinds of drugs.

 

It sounds like you really are sleeping. Many of us go through periods of micro-sleep. Micro-sleeps are very short periods of sleep that you may not even remember having. It's very common for people who have sleep deprivation. Lying down and closing your eyes is the best way to have micro sleeps. And perhaps a very small dose of Melatonin will help. 

 

Try not to let your fear of losing sleep become yet another symptom that you'll have to overcome. 

[frasier23]

Shep ,Ali: ok so you think if I try to sleep every night for say 20days eventually I will sleep or at least uave enough sleep to go by? Have you heard about complete insomnia for several months?

[Shep]

I think it's less important to rate your sleep hours and more important to rate your overall functionality.

 

How are you doing during the day, frasier? Are you able to work if you're employed,  or get out of your home for walks? How are you eating? Are you able to concentrate on a book or a TV show? Can you go to the grocery store? 

 

Although I went through months and months with almost no sleep, I was able to still do a lot of these kinds of things. I was exhausted (and still am during waves). But I was functional enough to make it through. 

[frasier23]

Shep: why Im asking is because when you go through nights without sleep you soon think youre gonna die and I believe that feeling is valid, no?

 

I feel ok during day but I cant get any job due to my slep I dont want to risk it and the embarrassment that can come with it. I feel i van walk less,eat less because I have not so much energy.

[Shep]

Anything you're feeling is valid, frasier. You have a right to feel bad and to feel scared. This is a difficult experience for all of us. 

 

Even if you're walking less and eating less, as long as it's enough to keep you going, then you're going to be okay. Right now, your mind and body are telling you to slow down while healing takes place. And that's okay. 

 

Alto mentioned the fact that you're getting about 18 hours of sunlight now in Finland, which can contribute to your insomnia.  So please read the links we've provided for you throughout your thread on improving your sleep with non-drug coping methods. 

[frasier23]

Ive read non drug coping methods. I dont have melatonin available and I also dont want to be dependant on that guess same goes with theralen hehe.

 

I have a dark room and go to bed same time every day etc.

[scallywag]

frasier23, You're right to be concerned about melatonin -- it's a hormone our bodies produce naturally and long term use might suppress natural production for a while.

 

You don't have to become dependent on melatonin. It's best to start with a small dose, 250 mcg or 0.25 mg, for a few nights between 7-8 pm or at dusk, which ever comes closest to being 3-4 hours before you want to go to sleep. If the 250 mcg doesn't have the desired effect, you increase to 500 mcg for a few days. Next steps would be 750 mg and after a few days of that 1 mg.  The idea is to hit the "reset" button of your sleep cycle. Once your sleep onset has been reset for a week or so, you slowly back off the melatonin dose the same way you increased it.

 

I've done this reset with melatonin twice since April, once for 10 days and once for 1 night. I haven't needed to repeat it since May 30.

[Altostrata]

frasier, have you made your bedroom dark? Are you keeping regular hours?

 

I'm concerned that you seem to believe you can take a pill to solve your problem. This may not work well for you because your nervous system is sensitized by withdrawal.

[frasier23]

Im having regular hours and a dark room. Yes I know it sounds odd but without pill right now I cant sleep. zero

[frasier23]

Im doing theralen now for a couple of weeks just to have some sleep and will try then again without any medicine. I lost ALL natural sleep when i CT zyprexa last year.

[frasier23]

scallywag: since i sleep zero hours without theralen right now i dont believe a reset of sleep cycle would help me right now. Cant sleep anytime anyway

[Shep]

I'm confused about this, frasier. The point of trying Melatonin is to get you to sleep for a few hours, at least.

 

But if you're functioning okay during the day (although with some discomfort), than it's okay to simply not take anything and let your mind / body heal on its own. That's what I'm doing, and I also have a history with antipsychotics. And slowly, I'm sleeping better and more deeply. It's more restorative on some nights now. I did go through a really long period of 0 - 2 hours of sleep a night, so I know what you're dealing with. Most of us on this forum do. But rest assured, in time, the mind and body do get better. 

 

What are you eating before bedtime? There are certain foods that may help with sleep. I have to eat a small amount of protein in order to keep my blood sugar stable all night. I find foods high in Omega 3 like fish and certain nuts to be helpful. So make sure a good diet is part of your recovery. 

 

[frasier23]

Shep do you have tinnitus aswell?

[Shep]

Yes, I do have tinnitus. I run a fan at night to provide some soft, background noise and that helps.  Also, there are apps with nature sounds and white noise that can help with tinnitus. I have several of them on my phone. 

 

There's a thread already started on tinnitus that you may find helpful:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1736-tinnitus-what-does-all-that-noise-mean/

[frasier23]

Have taken theralen now for some days and realize that I wont get any restorative sleep out of it.. Just black holes where i dont know if ive slept or not. So am tapering down now or whatever. 4days of 40mg . Can I stop CT?

[frasier23]

Shep: I have problems to understand how my sleep will find its way back to normal when the baseline on all regulators have changed. I need more stimuli for joy maybe less for fear etc. That means my sleep should have changed to. Maybe i need more exhaustion for sleep than earlier or that i cant handle as much bright light anymore etc etc. So hard to understand why the new baseline would change again automatically.

[Shep]

Im doing theralen now for a couple of weeks just to have some sleep and will try then again without any medicine. I lost ALL natural sleep when i CT zyprexa last year.

 

 

 

Have taken theralen now for some days and realize that I wont get any restorative sleep out of it.. Just black holes where i dont know if ive slept or not. So am tapering down now or whatever. 4days of 40mg . Can I stop CT?

 

 

Hi, Frasier.

 

I'm a bit confused by this. On July 10, you said you'd been taking Theralen for a couple of weeks, but today you state you've only been on it for 4 days.

 

Please let us know exactly how long you've been taking it. By taking drugs off and on like this, you are destabilizing your CNS and causing yourself more problems. If you've been on it for several weeks, you may need to taper, so this information is important. 

[frasier23]

sorry about confusing. Ive been on it 4 days and stopped CT had WD anyways yesterday night. Had similiar "sleep" this night as on theralen. So either is theralen still active or its just placebo. So tired of this anyways so dont care anymore. wonder if those negative/neutral thoughts help my sleep. Ive noticed that if you have more hope of sleeping it becomes harder.

[Shep]

Hi, frasier.

 

4 days is not long enough for your system to register the Theralen. However, you were on it rather recently prior to those four days. You really need to decide if you want to stay on it and do a slow taper or to simply stay off it. Coming on and off medications is making it more difficult for you. 

 

Please read what Wellness wrote earlier on your thread because it really should give you some hope: 

 

 

Frasier,

 

Your sleep will come back if you stay off the drugs, it will take time, but it will come back.

 

I slept only minutes at a time for months, and after a year, I was still waking up very frequently during the night.  After about six months off all drugs, I could sleep about 2 hours without waking up and that was enough to get a little bit of deep sleep.  Then I would sleep 15 to 30 minutes at a time during which time I got some light sleep.  I could not sleep at all during the day. This pattern continued for almost 2 1/2 to 3 years, and then I was sleeping 4 to 5 hours a night.  I am 5 1/2 years off all drugs, and I"m now sleeping about 6 hours a night and it is still getting better. 

 

To fall asleep to have to turn your brain off, so you don't want to think about anything.  You can try to think about your  breathing.  After a while, your brain becomes bored and starts to wander off.  Sometime you can fall asleep that way.  You can try to wear sunglasses a few hours before going to bed, that might help.  Sleeping in a cool, dark, and quiet room is also important.

 

Part of the reason that you are not sleeping could be because of sleeping pills (imovane) and benzodiazepines.  If you take them for more than two weeks in  a row, they don't help anymore and you can't sleep without taking more benzo.  Imovane is just like a benzo, it's the same mode of action, and they are just as addictive.

 

 

 

This kind of long term insomnia is very common, but as Wellness so wisely wrote, "Your sleep will come back if you stay off the drugs, it will take time, but it will come back". 

 

You definitely are having "chemical" insomnia, caused by the use of these drugs. But you're also suffering from the fear of never sleeping. I had that, too.

 

If you can, try to use mindfulness techniques, take a walk outside earlier in the day, listen to quiet music, take a warm bath, watch comedies on TV or the internet. These are all ways of distracting your thoughts so you can ease yourself into the right frame of mind for sleep at night.

 

Since insomnia was the reason you went on these drugs, you may struggle with insomnia even more, so if you do need to take something, I would try the melatonin first. Remember to start at a very low dose and follow the guidelines listed on the very first post of this thread: 

 

Melatonin for sleep

 

Here's how to re-establish your sleep cycle with melatonin:

- Start with .25mg-.50mg melatonin for 3-4 days.

- Take at the same time, nightfall (but, given that it's summer, not later than 8 p.m.), every night.

- If needed, gradually increase by .25mg for 3-4 days at a time.

- Use the lowest effective dose.

- Try to turn lights off or keep lights low after sundown. Your bedroom should be quiet and dark. Darkness triggers natural melatonin production. Artificial lighting, including staring into the computer, can give the wrong signal to your pineal gland.

- Keep to a very regular schedule -- this is what your circadian rhythm needs.

- Do NOT take melatonin regularly at any time but nightfall or you might scramble your sleep-wake cycle.

 

 

[frasier23]

thanks shep.

 

My doc told me that I had to relearn how to sleep again when having insomnia therefore he advised on for example theralen. Is this not right? do my brain know how to sleep if I havent for a long time..

 

Also could it be that reinstate of zyprexa could be only solution out of it?? dont want to go that route

[Shep]

Yes, relearning how to sleep is key. I spent 30 years on drugs for sleep, and went through severe insomnia from the "chemical" aspect and then had to deal with the "psychological" aspect. So I do understand this fear of never being able to sleep again.

 

But the mind and the body will naturally re-set themselves given time away from the drugs. Healthy foods, lots of clean water to drink, healthy habits like gentle forms of exercise, and just having a positive attitude will all work to your favor.

 

No additional medication is needed for this. While the option of reinstating Zyprexa is there, it's not necessary, especially since you don't want to go that route. 

 

Again, your mind and body will naturally re-set themselves. So work on those non-drug coping skills and give yourself time to heal. 

[frasier23]

So if relearning is key. how will the body relearn when its not sleeping naturally. doesnt it need a boost to start learning again? Thats how the doctors view so how come we view other way?

[Shep]

For me, there was a certain level of exhaustion that over-rode everything else. That was kind of like the "boost" that you're talking about.   I would go a couple of nights with zero or little sleep and around the third night, I might get 2 or 3. Like Wellness wrote above, it can take a number of months to work itself out. Now I usually get 4 - 6 hours of sleep each night and the overall quality of sleep is getting better. 

 

Did you ever find out what caused your initial problems with insomnia prior to taking these drugs? If it was stress or anxiety, you most likely can resolve this through mindfulness, CBT, or some other form of talk therapy. There are many options out there that don't involve medication. 

 

 

[frasier23]

thanks shep how did you avoid psychosis during this rough time? remember i read that you have symptom of psychosis on regular basis but you work it out?