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Lizagal: Does it take longer for K users to stabilize in a long hold?


Lizagal

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The first three times I was on klonopin--2002, 2004-2005 and later 2005-2006, I was on a steady dose for longer periods--at least six months--while docs tried to experiment with ADs which I never could tolerate for more than two days. Each time I felt well enough to function and tapered off klonopin after a while rather quickly. 

The next time in 2009, the klonopin didn't work so I thought I was in tolerance but I realize now I was taking all sorts of GABA acting herbs and supplements on top of it. Then within six weeks my doc convinced me to take Lexapro which made me suicidal. That led to CT of that and K, being put on two other benzos and an AD for a month which I then tapered off of within a few months, then reinstated on K because of akathisia. Stayed on the K for a week before I started a five month taper. Then acute withdrawal in 2011 and protracted for 3 1/2 years.

 

Fast forward to September 2014 where I was given one dose of oral lidocaine which put me back into acute. Four months later, psychotic and suicidal because I couldn't sleep one minute that whole time, I was put in the hospital and given the choice to go to the psych hospital or take Ativan to sleep.  I took the Ativan.  Within 2 days I started going through worse withdrawal and knew I had to reinstate on the Ativan and start tapering quickly--and within 12 days (unstable) started tapering. Cut 50% in 6 weeks.  Went through hell again. Updosed in Feb 2015 and felt better than I've felt in years.  But doctor who was going to help me with liquid microtaper wouldn't do it uniless I crossed over to K or V, so I picked K cuz I didn't know V.  I started a microtaper May 2015 after holding after the cross for 3 weeks.  I was losing 5% a month and feeling like hell the whole time.  I couldn't figure out how people said you could be stable and functional while you tapered because I didn't remember what that felt like. 

 

In September 2015, doc had me go back up to the 1 mg where I started (I had crossed from 1.75 mg A to 1 mg. K) and then had me updose a week later to 1.25 mg.  He told me to hold there for 6 months.  I thought he was nuts because I was afraid of tolerance.  So after 3 weeks, I had a couple days where I could do normal things again--drive, walk, work and feel like me--so I thought I better start my microtaper again. 

 

By Christmas I was so sick, even though I was only tapering 1% from September through the end of the year.  I started adding in three to four day holds and I was still crashing mentally and physically.  In February, someone told me to go to the long hold support group on BenzoBuddies to read success stories about long holds.

 

I've been holding at 1.20 mg of Klonopin for 4 1/2 months from the 1.25 mg I started tapering from in September.  Even after 4 1/2 months, I feel like hell and can't tell what is never having stabilized since December 2014 and what is side effects.  I was told by someone in the long hold group that it takes longer to stabilize on K, and because of my history, it may take me longer.  Can anyone relate?  I'm told it's not unrealistic to think that after a six month hold I could be 80% functional--not perfect, but functional--walking, driving, working.

 

Please--I need some hope!  I can't imagine tapering with the way I feel.  I wish I could feel like I did in the few days I had after updsoing to 1.25 mg, but it didn't last so I thought I needed to taper right away.
 

The first three times I was on klonopin--2002, 2004-2005 and later 2005-2006, I was on a steady dose for longer periods--at least six months--while docs tried to experiment with ADs which I never could tolerate for more than two days. Each time I felt well enough to function and tapered off klonopin after a while rather quickly.

 

The next time in 2009, the klonopin didn't work so I thought I was in tolerance but I realize now I was taking all sorts of GABA acting herbs and supplements on top of it. Then within six weeks my doc convinced me to take Lexapro which made me suicidal. That led to CT of that and K, being put on two other benzos and an AD for a month which I then tapered off of within a few months, then reinstated on K because of akathisia. Stayed on the K for a week before I started a five month taper. Then acute withdrawal in 2011 and protracted for 3 1/2 years.

 

Fast forward to September 2014 where I was given one dose of oral lidocaine which put me back into acute. Four months later, psychotic and suicidal because I couldn't sleep one minute that whole time, I was put in the hospital and given the choice to go to the psych hospital or take Ativan to sleep. I took the Ativan. Within 2 days I started going through worse withdrawal and knew I had to reinstate on the Ativan and start tapering quickly--and within 12 days (unstable) started tapering. Cut 50% in 6 weeks. Went through hell again. Updosed in Feb 2015 and felt better than I've felt in years. But doctor who was going to help me with liquid microtaper wouldn't do it uniless I crossed over to K or V, so I picked K cuz I didn't know V. I started a microtaper May 2015 after holding after the cross for 3 weeks. I was losing 5% a month and feeling like hell the whole time. I couldn't figure out how people said you could be stable and functional while you tapered because I didn't remember what that felt like.

 

In September 2015, doc had me go back up to the 1 mg where I started (I had crossed from 1.75 mg A to 1 mg. K) and then had me updose a week later to 1.25 mg. He told me to hold there for 6 months. I thought he was nuts because I was afraid of tolerance. So after 3 weeks, I had a couple days where I could do normal things again--drive, walk, work and feel like me--so I thought I better start my microtaper again.

 

By Christmas I was so sick, even though I was only tapering 1% from September through the end of the year. I started adding in three to four day holds and I was still crashing mentally and physically. In February, someone told me to go to the long hold support group on BenzoBuddies to read success stories about long holds.

 

I've been holding at 1.20 mg of Klonopin for 4 1/2 months as of July 13, 2016 from the 1.25 mg I started tapering from in September. Even after 4 1/2 months, I feel like hell and can't tell what is never having stabilized since December 2014 and what is side effects. I was told by someone in the long hold group that it takes longer to stabilize on K, and because of my history, it may take me longer. Can anyone relate? I'm told it's not unrealistic to think that after a six month hold I could be 80% functional--not perfect, but functional--walking, driving, working.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Lizagal,

 

I moved your post to the introduction post.   Everyone has one, it's like your home page.

 

It seems that you were doing well until you crossed over from 1.75 mg A to 1 mg K.  Based on Ashton's equivalency table  that amount of K should have been enough since 1 mg Ativan is listed as being equivalent to 0.5 mg K.

 

Going to a longer half-life drugs, from Ativan to Klonopin, might prevent you from getting interdose withdrawal, that is the good part, but the bad part is that they are different drugs.  

 

It looks like you could be in withdrawal from Ativan, from those receptors that Klonopin doesn't cover.

 

Lizagal,  what are your symptoms?

 

Do you feel better or worse during the day?  When are you dosing? Have you tried splitting your Klonopin dose to see if that helps? Have you considered substituting back a bit of the Ativan for the Klonopin to see if that gives you relief?

 

In hindsight, do you think the cross over was too rapid?

 

Are you currently taking antidepressants, or other p-drugs or GABAergic drugs, birth control pills,  corticosteroids?

 

Please add a signature line to your post.  Just a few lines with a short history of drugs and dosages.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12364-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

I do not have a medical background, any opinions are my own.

 

I took zopiclone ( z-drug) for situational insomnia. Three weeks later I was having panic attacks. I was given Benzos, A/D, anti-psychotics, "mood stabilizers" and I kept getting worse and worse. I got very sick.

 

I have been off all drugs now for over 5 years and I'm healing nicely.

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No other drugs--crossed over to klonopin in two weeks according to a Facebook group I was in.  I put  5 .25 dissolvable wafers in 60 ml milk and was pulling 3 ml before I started holding.  I dose at 9:30 p.m., 5:30 a.m., 11 am and 4:30 pm.  I thought at first this might be partially Ativan withdrawal, but I had a week in September where I felt pretty stable, but then it started to peter out so I started tapering right away.

 

In hindsight, I've done everything wrong, especially going to the ER for stomach pain in September 2014 and drinking oral lidocaine that threw me back into acute.  I was prepared to die four months later, but was forced to take Ativan or be sent to a psych hospital?

 

I'd give anything to think I could cross back over to Ativan, but then I'd have to go through klonopin withdrawal.

 

I started in a group on BenzoBuddies that advocates long holds--like 3-6 months to try to stabilize.  I'm here to see if that has worked for anyone else.

The first three times I was on klonopin--2002, 2004-2005 and later 2005-2006, I was on a steady dose for longer periods--at least six months--while docs tried to experiment with ADs which I never could tolerate for more than two days. Each time I felt well enough to function and tapered off klonopin after a while rather quickly.

 

The next time in 2009, the klonopin didn't work so I thought I was in tolerance but I realize now I was taking all sorts of GABA acting herbs and supplements on top of it. Then within six weeks my doc convinced me to take Lexapro which made me suicidal. That led to CT of that and K, being put on two other benzos and an AD for a month which I then tapered off of within a few months, then reinstated on K because of akathisia. Stayed on the K for a week before I started a five month taper. Then acute withdrawal in 2011 and protracted for 3 1/2 years.

 

Fast forward to September 2014 where I was given one dose of oral lidocaine which put me back into acute. Four months later, psychotic and suicidal because I couldn't sleep one minute that whole time, I was put in the hospital and given the choice to go to the psych hospital or take Ativan to sleep. I took the Ativan. Within 2 days I started going through worse withdrawal and knew I had to reinstate on the Ativan and start tapering quickly--and within 12 days (unstable) started tapering. Cut 50% in 6 weeks. Went through hell again. Updosed in Feb 2015 and felt better than I've felt in years. But doctor who was going to help me with liquid microtaper wouldn't do it uniless I crossed over to K or V, so I picked K cuz I didn't know V. I started a microtaper May 2015 after holding after the cross for 3 weeks. I was losing 5% a month and feeling like hell the whole time. I couldn't figure out how people said you could be stable and functional while you tapered because I didn't remember what that felt like.

 

In September 2015, doc had me go back up to the 1 mg where I started (I had crossed from 1.75 mg A to 1 mg. K) and then had me updose a week later to 1.25 mg. He told me to hold there for 6 months. I thought he was nuts because I was afraid of tolerance. So after 3 weeks, I had a couple days where I could do normal things again--drive, walk, work and feel like me--so I thought I better start my microtaper again.

 

By Christmas I was so sick, even though I was only tapering 1% from September through the end of the year. I started adding in three to four day holds and I was still crashing mentally and physically. In February, someone told me to go to the long hold support group on BenzoBuddies to read success stories about long holds.

 

I've been holding at 1.20 mg of Klonopin for 4 1/2 months as of July 13, 2016 from the 1.25 mg I started tapering from in September. Even after 4 1/2 months, I feel like hell and can't tell what is never having stabilized since December 2014 and what is side effects. I was told by someone in the long hold group that it takes longer to stabilize on K, and because of my history, it may take me longer. Can anyone relate? I'm told it's not unrealistic to think that after a six month hold I could be 80% functional--not perfect, but functional--walking, driving, working.

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Gyne wants me to try bioidentical progesterone but I think that will add to problems.

 

Symptoms are 90% brain--fog, DR/DP, concentration, memory, racing thoughts, insane thoughts,

10% physical--really slow reaction time visually, feelling physically sick/weak/poisoned all the time.

 

Everything worse before 11 am dose and get usually better as the day goes on.  I've had some 75% afternoons since holding, but it's windows and waves.

The first three times I was on klonopin--2002, 2004-2005 and later 2005-2006, I was on a steady dose for longer periods--at least six months--while docs tried to experiment with ADs which I never could tolerate for more than two days. Each time I felt well enough to function and tapered off klonopin after a while rather quickly.

 

The next time in 2009, the klonopin didn't work so I thought I was in tolerance but I realize now I was taking all sorts of GABA acting herbs and supplements on top of it. Then within six weeks my doc convinced me to take Lexapro which made me suicidal. That led to CT of that and K, being put on two other benzos and an AD for a month which I then tapered off of within a few months, then reinstated on K because of akathisia. Stayed on the K for a week before I started a five month taper. Then acute withdrawal in 2011 and protracted for 3 1/2 years.

 

Fast forward to September 2014 where I was given one dose of oral lidocaine which put me back into acute. Four months later, psychotic and suicidal because I couldn't sleep one minute that whole time, I was put in the hospital and given the choice to go to the psych hospital or take Ativan to sleep. I took the Ativan. Within 2 days I started going through worse withdrawal and knew I had to reinstate on the Ativan and start tapering quickly--and within 12 days (unstable) started tapering. Cut 50% in 6 weeks. Went through hell again. Updosed in Feb 2015 and felt better than I've felt in years. But doctor who was going to help me with liquid microtaper wouldn't do it uniless I crossed over to K or V, so I picked K cuz I didn't know V. I started a microtaper May 2015 after holding after the cross for 3 weeks. I was losing 5% a month and feeling like hell the whole time. I couldn't figure out how people said you could be stable and functional while you tapered because I didn't remember what that felt like.

 

In September 2015, doc had me go back up to the 1 mg where I started (I had crossed from 1.75 mg A to 1 mg. K) and then had me updose a week later to 1.25 mg. He told me to hold there for 6 months. I thought he was nuts because I was afraid of tolerance. So after 3 weeks, I had a couple days where I could do normal things again--drive, walk, work and feel like me--so I thought I better start my microtaper again.

 

By Christmas I was so sick, even though I was only tapering 1% from September through the end of the year. I started adding in three to four day holds and I was still crashing mentally and physically. In February, someone told me to go to the long hold support group on BenzoBuddies to read success stories about long holds.

 

I've been holding at 1.20 mg of Klonopin for 4 1/2 months as of July 13, 2016 from the 1.25 mg I started tapering from in September. Even after 4 1/2 months, I feel like hell and can't tell what is never having stabilized since December 2014 and what is side effects. I was told by someone in the long hold group that it takes longer to stabilize on K, and because of my history, it may take me longer. Can anyone relate? I'm told it's not unrealistic to think that after a six month hold I could be 80% functional--not perfect, but functional--walking, driving, working.

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ALso tinnitus, nightmares, morning confusion, intolerance to any physical activity beyond walking through the house, sometimes complete intolerance to light, touch, other people speaking, etc.  Can't walk very far and can't drive because my brain is slow and drunk

The first three times I was on klonopin--2002, 2004-2005 and later 2005-2006, I was on a steady dose for longer periods--at least six months--while docs tried to experiment with ADs which I never could tolerate for more than two days. Each time I felt well enough to function and tapered off klonopin after a while rather quickly.

 

The next time in 2009, the klonopin didn't work so I thought I was in tolerance but I realize now I was taking all sorts of GABA acting herbs and supplements on top of it. Then within six weeks my doc convinced me to take Lexapro which made me suicidal. That led to CT of that and K, being put on two other benzos and an AD for a month which I then tapered off of within a few months, then reinstated on K because of akathisia. Stayed on the K for a week before I started a five month taper. Then acute withdrawal in 2011 and protracted for 3 1/2 years.

 

Fast forward to September 2014 where I was given one dose of oral lidocaine which put me back into acute. Four months later, psychotic and suicidal because I couldn't sleep one minute that whole time, I was put in the hospital and given the choice to go to the psych hospital or take Ativan to sleep. I took the Ativan. Within 2 days I started going through worse withdrawal and knew I had to reinstate on the Ativan and start tapering quickly--and within 12 days (unstable) started tapering. Cut 50% in 6 weeks. Went through hell again. Updosed in Feb 2015 and felt better than I've felt in years. But doctor who was going to help me with liquid microtaper wouldn't do it uniless I crossed over to K or V, so I picked K cuz I didn't know V. I started a microtaper May 2015 after holding after the cross for 3 weeks. I was losing 5% a month and feeling like hell the whole time. I couldn't figure out how people said you could be stable and functional while you tapered because I didn't remember what that felt like.

 

In September 2015, doc had me go back up to the 1 mg where I started (I had crossed from 1.75 mg A to 1 mg. K) and then had me updose a week later to 1.25 mg. He told me to hold there for 6 months. I thought he was nuts because I was afraid of tolerance. So after 3 weeks, I had a couple days where I could do normal things again--drive, walk, work and feel like me--so I thought I better start my microtaper again.

 

By Christmas I was so sick, even though I was only tapering 1% from September through the end of the year. I started adding in three to four day holds and I was still crashing mentally and physically. In February, someone told me to go to the long hold support group on BenzoBuddies to read success stories about long holds.

 

I've been holding at 1.20 mg of Klonopin for 4 1/2 months as of July 13, 2016 from the 1.25 mg I started tapering from in September. Even after 4 1/2 months, I feel like hell and can't tell what is never having stabilized since December 2014 and what is side effects. I was told by someone in the long hold group that it takes longer to stabilize on K, and because of my history, it may take me longer. Can anyone relate? I'm told it's not unrealistic to think that after a six month hold I could be 80% functional--not perfect, but functional--walking, driving, working.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Lizagal,

 

I see that you are dosing Klonopin 4 times a day, and although not exactly spaced apart, Klonopin has a long half-life that dosing a little off the exact times should not cause you much variation in blood concentration.  I see that you are dosing at 9:30 pm and again at 5:30 am.  Does that mean that you are finally getting some sleep?  Also, you feel worse just before your 11 am dose, that might be indicative of withdrawal, but here is also a cortisol peak around noon, and you could be reacting to that too.

 

Here is a link to a random google search for cortisol circadian rhythm that shows the noon time peak.

http://www.kanonphoto.com/drdianahoppe-your-circadian-rhythm-and-cortisol-cycle/

 

Regarding progesterone, it is a GABAa agonist, and that alone could cause a setback.  I don't know who is Gyne?  Is that short for gynecologist?  In your case, you have a sensitivity to GABAa-ergic drugs so adding this could cause you a lot of trouble in the long run.  I've know at least three people who had to taper over a long period of time their progesterone, and were in  withdrawal the whole time.  It seen that Gyne thinks that progesterone could help, are you peri-menopausal?  Do you think that could be a contributing factor to your insomnia?

 

Regarding long holds, Surviving Antidepressants advocates long holds and it has worked well for quite a few members.  You can look up Skyler, she has had success with a long holds and suggested it to several members.  It has worked extremely well for her.

I do not have a medical background, any opinions are my own.

 

I took zopiclone ( z-drug) for situational insomnia. Three weeks later I was having panic attacks. I was given Benzos, A/D, anti-psychotics, "mood stabilizers" and I kept getting worse and worse. I got very sick.

 

I have been off all drugs now for over 5 years and I'm healing nicely.

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I am post menopausal and yes Gyne is a gynecologist.  I only had insomnia once I was given the oral dose of lidocaine in the ER for stomach pain in September 1 2014 and didn't sleep for four months--not one minute.  Felt like my brain was a dry potato chip.  I know at least 3 women who tell me they used bio identical progesterone during their whole taper and still stabilized and were able to taper successfully.  So I guess that one is person to person.

 

Thank you for the direction on long holds.  I've been told that it takes longer to stabilize on klonopin and would take a longer hold to get stabilized.  Have you heard that?

The first three times I was on klonopin--2002, 2004-2005 and later 2005-2006, I was on a steady dose for longer periods--at least six months--while docs tried to experiment with ADs which I never could tolerate for more than two days. Each time I felt well enough to function and tapered off klonopin after a while rather quickly.

 

The next time in 2009, the klonopin didn't work so I thought I was in tolerance but I realize now I was taking all sorts of GABA acting herbs and supplements on top of it. Then within six weeks my doc convinced me to take Lexapro which made me suicidal. That led to CT of that and K, being put on two other benzos and an AD for a month which I then tapered off of within a few months, then reinstated on K because of akathisia. Stayed on the K for a week before I started a five month taper. Then acute withdrawal in 2011 and protracted for 3 1/2 years.

 

Fast forward to September 2014 where I was given one dose of oral lidocaine which put me back into acute. Four months later, psychotic and suicidal because I couldn't sleep one minute that whole time, I was put in the hospital and given the choice to go to the psych hospital or take Ativan to sleep. I took the Ativan. Within 2 days I started going through worse withdrawal and knew I had to reinstate on the Ativan and start tapering quickly--and within 12 days (unstable) started tapering. Cut 50% in 6 weeks. Went through hell again. Updosed in Feb 2015 and felt better than I've felt in years. But doctor who was going to help me with liquid microtaper wouldn't do it uniless I crossed over to K or V, so I picked K cuz I didn't know V. I started a microtaper May 2015 after holding after the cross for 3 weeks. I was losing 5% a month and feeling like hell the whole time. I couldn't figure out how people said you could be stable and functional while you tapered because I didn't remember what that felt like.

 

In September 2015, doc had me go back up to the 1 mg where I started (I had crossed from 1.75 mg A to 1 mg. K) and then had me updose a week later to 1.25 mg. He told me to hold there for 6 months. I thought he was nuts because I was afraid of tolerance. So after 3 weeks, I had a couple days where I could do normal things again--drive, walk, work and feel like me--so I thought I better start my microtaper again.

 

By Christmas I was so sick, even though I was only tapering 1% from September through the end of the year. I started adding in three to four day holds and I was still crashing mentally and physically. In February, someone told me to go to the long hold support group on BenzoBuddies to read success stories about long holds.

 

I've been holding at 1.20 mg of Klonopin for 4 1/2 months as of July 13, 2016 from the 1.25 mg I started tapering from in September. Even after 4 1/2 months, I feel like hell and can't tell what is never having stabilized since December 2014 and what is side effects. I was told by someone in the long hold group that it takes longer to stabilize on K, and because of my history, it may take me longer. Can anyone relate? I'm told it's not unrealistic to think that after a six month hold I could be 80% functional--not perfect, but functional--walking, driving, working.

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