Mea

[Mea]

Hi guys,

 

Just wanted to introduce myself.

 

After 21 years of being on several types of anti-depressant medications I am determined to completely stop (see history in signature). I am taking 150mg of Effexor at the moment and managed to stop taking it for 8 months last year but the experience was extremely traumatic. I spent about 4-5 months tapering off and then was completely off Effexor for 8 months. Unfortunately I went back on Effexor after the 8 month mark as I was worried about suicide and could literally not function or work or get out of bed.

 

I have never experienced any type of severe depression until this point in my life  (2015 when I attempted to go off medication). I didn’t understand what was happening until I found this - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria

 

I would be super interested to know of any individuals or moderators on here who have some knowledge or experience in tardive dysphoria/oppositional tolerance. I am hoping there may be someone out there with theories/solutions on how to go off an anti-depressant like Effexor with some sort of support instead of just going off and suffering for years and years until one day you hopefully might start to feel better? I would like to believe that that the neuroplasticity of my brain will definitely get me there eventually but I am really scared after my last experience and not sure how long I could tough it out.

 

At the moment I am looking into st johns wart, saffron, lamictal and transcranial magnetic stimulation. I find Dr Kelly Brogan's work quite fascinating as well although I have already done everything I can nutritionally. She did her fellowship at NYU Medical Center after graduating from Cornell University Medical College, and has a B.S. from MIT in Systems Neuroscience and has some pretty fascinating things to say about antidepressants worsening the long-term course of depression, anti-depressants actually working via being an anti-inflammatory as well as the treatment of depression through nutrition. She has recently released a book but main stream media outlets have basically blacklisted her, likely because of their primary sponsorship by pharmaceutical companies.

 

My aim is to try and go off of Effexor again but I want to have a better strategy in place this time and some sort of back-up plan so I don't panic and go back to Effexor. Last time was pretty traumatizing.

 

Any suggestions, ideas etc are very very welcome!

[savinggrace]

Mea,

 

I am not a moderator, but I do know that a 4-5 month taper off 150 mg. is very fast. Here at SA a 10% taper of the current dose for a minimum of 4 weeks between reductions is recommended especially after a failed attempt and withdrawal. You have already re-instated so you are in a good position to taper slowly this time, and if you are patient, you are likely to be successful. I am not good at posting links, but on the home page click on tapering and you will find all sorts of info on how to taper slowly and carefully. You are in the right place. Hopefully a mod will come along soon. Good luck. Grace

[Mea]

Thank you, I did not know this! My doctor recommended a much faster taper than what I did so I thought I was already being really conservative. I will read through the tapering information. I did not even think to read that section. Thank you so much again!

[nz11]

So glad you have found sa Mea

Welcome

 

I’ve made every lifestyle change possible (regular meditation/exercise, eating cleanly and have no micronutrient or mineral deficiencies thanks to working with a functional practitioner) but none of that seemed to help

This an interesting discovery. 

What is critical in getting off these drugs is the taper speed holding for at least a  month between drops for the brain to adjust to the new level of drug. Putting hope in anything else is like holding up an umbrella hoping to get some protection from a B52 carpet bomber. imo

 

You can get off these drugs. And now that you have found sa i have no doubt you can do it. You will have to put aside several years of tapering (perhaps  3.8yrs) but people here are all in the same boat you are not alone. You can now get informed.

 

Slow taper the drug you are on and its best to avoid  adding other drugs to the mix including st Johns Wart.

Brogan is doing great stuff but i think she is putting emphasis on diet and as you have discovered it is not key.

 

Checkout the effexor taper thread

Tips for tapering off Effexor (venlafaxine)

 

 

nz11

[Shep]

HI, Mea. Welcome to the forum from me, too.  I'm glad you're here for information and support.

 

NZ kindly gave you the link to the "Tips for Tapering off Effexor". In addition, please also read over these links for more information:

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

 

What is withdrawal syndrome?

 
The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

 

 

I have never experienced any type of severe depression until this point in my life  (2015 when I attempted to go off medication). I didn’t understand what was happening until I found this - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria

 

I would be super interested to know of any individuals or moderators on here who have some knowledge or experience in tardive dysphoria/oppositional tolerance. I am hoping there may be someone out there with theories/solutions on how to go off an anti-depressant like Effexor with some sort of support instead of just going off and suffering for years and years until one day you hopefully might start to feel better? I would like to believe that that the neuroplasticity of my brain will definitely get me there eventually but I am really scared after my last experience and not sure how long I could tough it out.

 

 

We do have information on that, as it's a concern for many of us. This is a thread listing some of Dr. Giovanni Fava's work. As listed in the article you linked to, Dr. Fava has been involved in this research:

 

Papers by Dr. GA Fava, long-time critic of antidepressants

 

From my own experience and having gotten to know a number of people who are several years off these drugs, the depression caused by these drugs is most likely not permanent. I actually had depression severe enough to cause a suicide attempt, but I'm 14 months off all drugs after 30 years of use and I don't have a lot of problems with depression. When I do, it's largely connected to the collateral damage caused by the drugs. And I think that's true of a lot of people.

 

I also believe in the neuroplasticity of the brain. And of the human spirit.

 

 

 

 

At the moment I am looking into st johns wart, saffron, lamictal and transcranial magnetic stimulation.

 

Please be very, very careful of other medications and supplements, especially those that affect serotonin such as St. Johns Wart. 

 

St. John's Wort (Hypericum Perforatum)

 

I'm not familiar with saffron, but I did find a thread already started about it:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1381-im-just-wild-about-saffron/

 

 

The use of lamictal for withdrawal has been discussed here. I would be very, very hesitant to add another drug, especially since you really are fortunate to only have one drug to taper off of. With a slow and careful taper, that may be the best way to go without adding any more meds to the mix. However, there is discussion about it here that you may find useful:

 

Lamictal (lamotrigine) to calm post-discontinuation withdrawal symptoms

 

There's a thread about TMS that may be helpful:

 

TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation)?

 

 

Since you are already looking into the supplement route, please note that many members do find fish oil and magnesium helpful. It's best to start with only one supplement at a time and at a very low dose, keeping careful notes on your symptoms.

 

King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

Please use this thread to update your symptoms and ask plenty of questions.

 

 

[Mea]

Thank you so much NZ11 and Shep. You guys are amazing!! This is the most hopeful and supported I have felt in YEARS. I really just can't thank you guys enough.

 

I've spent the last 5 hours since I found this forum reading everything you pointed me towards including everything I could about tapering off Effexor FX. I obviously did not do it properly last year! I really really appreciate all of your advice. I've downloaded the fantastic spreadsheet that was available and calculated out about a 4 year taper (NZ11 did you do a calculation? you were right on!) although it looks like I may need to give myself longer towards the end after reading some people's threads about tapering when you are on a very low does...

 

Shep I really am amazed at what you have gone through and where you are today. Congratulations. It is seriously amazing.

 

It is pretty daunting to realise how long it may take but it also gives me hope that I can do it without having to suffer as much as I thought I might have to. I truly didn't know if I could do it and survive.

 

After reading various threads I'm still finding it hard to distinguish if it is possible to taper very slowly and stay off while being able to live a moderately emotionally stable life? I know everyone is different and it totally depends on what other stressors life throws at you so I guess it is a pretty hard question to answer. But from people who have been on here for a while and watched people's journeys - do I need to be prepared to have a moderately difficult next 5-10 years? I run a business that really requires my brain to be working well cognitively and I really want to have children soon (I'm getting too old to put it off much longer).

 

I am so nervous about being able to go off Effexor while balancing the need to be emotionally stable enough to function and be present for the people in my life. I had a difficult childhood and the last thing I want to do is be emotionally unstable for my kids, husband etc. I just couldn't do that to them.

 

Thank you so much again. This forum is amazing. I wish I had found it sooner but I guess I should just be thankful that I found it at all.

[Shep]

The fact that you're stable now is definitely in your favor, Mea. A lot of us come into these forums very destabilized and acutely ill. That's how I came in. But you are in a great position to do a very slow and careful taper, being mindful to listen to your mind / body.

 

Staying away from harmful supplements, slowly and mindfully adding in the safe ones (although please be careful and research everything), avoiding alcohol, eating healthy, and learning some non-drug coping techniques will all help.

 

Here is a link to get you started:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

I find that mindfulness, walking, gentle yoga, and playing music all are wonderful ways of coping. You have a wonderful positive attitude and I really believe that has a "healing" presence and will serve you well throughout this.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mea-- welcome to the group. I so glad you found us and very sorry for what you've been going through.  As Shep pointed out, you're in a very good place to start from.  The bad experiences are in the past and you can now take control of the situation and do it on your terms. Don't let the long time frame be a discouraging factor.  Yes it seem a long time going in, but it's amazing how fast it will go.  I'm coming up on the end of my taper this fall, it will have taken five years, but has been so worth it. The entire length of the taper is not pain and misery. We're all in a very bad place when we start.  With each successive drop things should improve.  Very slowly at first, then more noticeable as time goes on.  

 

The entire purpose of a slow taper is to minimize the WDsymptoms and maintain ones quality of life. I've maintained a career as a Research Engineer the entire time while others have maintained jobs in the medical field, as lawyers earned college degrees and gone to med school.  It's not without its challenges but can be done. During the time of the taper it gives us a chance to review lifes priorities (in some cases it forces us to do so) and make changes for the better.  As each of the WD challenges presents itself, it gives us opportunities to learn new ways of handling situations and coping with everyday stress. All of which leads to a building of inner strength that is invaluable.

 

One of the challenges is to learn to balance the desire to "be there for others" and allow ourselves to be selfish in our recovery.  Wd and recovery are highly personal experiences by their nature and can require us to withdraw into ourselves at times for our own well being.  It can also play holy h*** with our emotions.  All of these are temporary situations and with the help of a good, and understanding support group (i.e. DH and family) can be successfully handled.

 

You have plenty of support and knowledge to draw on here, and I wish you best of luck.

[Mea]

I woke up today feeling the most hopeful and excited I have felt in a very long time after remembering I had found SA and finally had the information and support I needed to go off of ADs! During the years of being on them I have battled chronic and debilitating side effects (I won’t go into the details here) but never had any other option. I also use to be a musician but lost touch with my ability to feel and write music and had to leave that life behind years ago since I didn’t think I could ever go off of the ADs.

 

What is more, after reading through your comments (Shep & Brassmonkey) I feel even more hopeful that it is possible to do and still be able to function and continue my life without completely withdrawing for the next 4 years. Thank you so much for your supportive words and encouragement. I am so impressed with the level of wisdom and intellect on this forum and feel so lucky to have found you guys.

 

My husband has been incredibly supportive and has been reading through all the fantastic information posted here on how to manage the tapering. Our plan is for him manage the dose tapering and we have put a spreadsheet together with the tapering plan. He is going to spend some time online today ordering some gear for it. My plan is to do the 10% reduction once a month as suggested here and I will start this week once I can see a doctor so I can get switched over to the 75 mg pills from the 150mg pill I am using at the moment. 

 

I use to be heavily into mindfulness meditation (because of all of scientific evidence supporting it) but lost the motivation to continue after it seemed to be of no help when I last tried to go off of Effexor. Now I am realising that it was not the “answer” to going off of Effexor but instead can serve as a support tool once I do the taper correctly this time. I have already spent a lot of time learning CBT, DBT, mindfulness based cognitive therapy and prioritising self care as I have struggled with mental health my whole life so I hope this can serve as useful coping skills during the coming years as I get deeper into my tapering. I have also briefly looked through the "symptoms and self care" threads and saw a ton of information there which I looked forward to exploring further as I start my journey.

 

Thank you so much again to everyone who has replied and to the moderators and admin of this forum. I wish everyone struggling with AD knew this forum existed!!!!!!

Edited July 23, 2016 by KarenB
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[KarenB]

Hi Mea, I really enjoyed reading your thread just now - so much positivity!  I am also tapering effexor, was on 150mg and now down to about 133mg.  I got off to a rocky start, as 10% was too much for me, but I'm doing a long hold and will soon start tapering again at a lower rate of reduction.  If I had to sum it all up, I'd say it feels daunting yet do-able, and I am sure I will be able to reach 0 one day.

 

Nice to meet you, and welcome to s/a,

Karen

[Mea]

Hi Karen!

 

Congratulations for getting down to 133mg and so sorry to hear how difficult it has been for you so far. Life seems so unfair sometimes when I think about how I ended up here and read stories like yours about how tough things have been.

 

Sounds like we are on a similar journey and at a similar age. My husband is from NZ

 

I'm looking forward to hearing how things go for you moving forward. xo

[KarenB]

Hey!  Your husband must be a pretty cool person then... . 

 

Good luck with beginning your taper.  Just noticed you are switching from the 150mg to the 75mg - sometimes this can cause a small hiccup while you adjust to the different type.  Doctors/pharmacists will say it's nonsense, but many of us notice blips when making such changes.  You might like to make the switch, wait 4 or so days and then think about beginning your taper. 

 

Karen

[Mea]

Thanks Karen, I had no idea! I'll do what you suggest. Thanks so much xo

[Mea]

Update - thanks to all the generous advice so far from you guys and spending quite a lot of time reading through this forum I am all sorted to start my taper on Monday.

 

Luckily my most recent general doctor is much more open minded then most doctors I have previously worked with so I thought I would give it a go and try to show him the information I had found. I printed out a ton of stuff from here plus some info from Dr David Healy and Robert Whitaker's article in Pyschology today on Giovanni Fava's research and gave it to him. He said he would read it which was encouraging and is going to help writing the prescription for Effexor as I taper (although he did first try to just switch me over to a newer medication..). 

 

Thank god KarenB suggested I wait to start tapering until I have waited a few days after switching from the 150mg to 2 x 75mg because my brain is defintely feeling pretty funky after making the switch. So thankful I didn't start immediately with my first taper on the same day.

 

******************************

 

I still have a LOT of anxiety about what to expect when I go from 0.5/1mg to ZERO after my 3/4 years of tapering.... There are so many people on this forum who are suffering so much once they are off ADs and I know from my last failed attempt how unbelievably bad it can get. It is hard to distinguish if those that are having a really hard time are struggling because they tapered too fast (like how I did last time) or if the fact of the matter is that no matter how slow you go once you go from 0.5/1mg to ZERO there is a large possibility you are going to go through an extended, possibly 1-3 year period of major difficulty. I've had a really hard time trying to figure out what to expect on this last part of the tapering journey.

 

So if anyone wants to chime in on what they have experienced themselves between 0.5/1mg and 0, having slowly tapered using the recommended 10% a month OR what they know from seeing other's experiences on this forum I am all ears :-)

 

I do feel A LOT less anxious though about the tapering period itself thanks to some really encouraging comments I received on my thread from some of the amazing people on this forum. And just knowing there is a wealth of knowledge and support available on this forum if things get tough and I need it is really reassuring. The "culture" within this forum is amazing. To be honest I find it pretty incredible how generous many people are in here with their time and knowledge while struggling so much themselves. It's pretty amazing..

[scallywag]

Mea, Those last steps are a long way off. Give yourself some time to get used to the rhythm of reducing the dose and holding there to observe your symptoms. You'll learn a great deal about your body's response.  Times when you're holding and symptoms are minimal are great times to add to your "toolbox" even though you've already been working diligently on that - techniques like mindfulness, biofeedback, or cognitive behavioral therapy; dietary and supplementation adjustments; gentle exercise. As you build your capacity to deal with stressful events, symptoms, and life in general, the last micrograms become less daunting.

[Mea]

Thank you, great advice.

[Mea]

Hi everyone, I could REALLY use some advice right now. All of the doctors I have spoken with have been totally useless.

 

I am 8 weeks pregnant (after 5 years of IVF & miscarriages) and having a hell of a time because of the Effexor. My plan was to taper off Effexor over the next 3.5 years. It wasn't an ideal plan because I'd REALLy prefer not to be on it while pregnant and breastfeeding but it seemed to be my only option as I literally couldn't function off of it last time I tried. I went too fast last time (did it in 6 months) and was having suicidal thoughts, couldn't get out of bed/work etc. 

 

The constipation normally caused by the Effexor (and every anti-depressant I have tried) has had me in and out of hospital over the years but I've learned how to manage it. But now the pregnancy has taken this problem to an all new level of BAD. Nothing I use to do to manage it is working (HUGE amounts of magnesium, movicol, water etc) and things are going downhill quickly. Literally no matter what and how much I take, nothing happens and my options are limited by the pregnancy.

 

I don't know what to do... Do I try to switch medications and then taper off that one over the next few years instead? It would be good to find one that is better for pregnancy/breastfeeding but every anti-depressant I've tried so far gives me terrible constipation (Effexor, Lexipro, Nortriptyline) and Effexor has been the best so far for my depression/anxiety. One doctor suggested trying Lamictal.

 

I'm scared of switching and not having the new one work well because I feel like my mental health is not very stable already at the moment with the pregnancy because of how sick I've been (all day/night nausea, dizziness, extreme constipation pain, can't sleep, and the hormone surges are making me crazy).

 

I was so excited with my tapering plan and feeling so positive and now this pregnancy has unfortunately thrown my plan for a bit of a loop.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated... I don't know where else to turn. My OB wants me to go off the Effexor but I don't think he understands how debilitating it can be for me to not be on it.

[scallywag]

I've had success with constipation by taking coconut oil, personally.  It also helped my mother during a complicated medical situation.

 

Coconut oil is a pre-biotic -- it feeds the "good" bacteria in the gut.

 

The incremental approach

Start with ¼ teaspoon and increase to ½ tsp. on day 2 or 3. Then add ¼ tsp with another meal and increase after 2-3 days.  Then increase each "dose" by ¼ tsp every 2-3 days.

[Mea]

Hi everyone!

 

I haven't been on here for a while as I did a very long hold on my 75mg dose of Effexor from basically my third trimester of pregnancy until now (my son is 14 months old now). I was struggling emotionally with the lack of sleep, job stress, and a high needs baby so I just kept holding on that dose for a very long time.

 

I just made my first 10% dose cut to 67.5mg since the long hold period and have been really struggling. I did it about 3 weeks ago and the withdrawal symptoms have really caught me by surprise because I didn't experience such dramatic withdrawal with my dose cuts prior to this one. In the past it was mostly a bad headache and being grumpy for about a week but I was completely functional. This time it has been much more difficult (very low frustration tolerance, angry at everything, feelings of overwhelm, not feeling capable of taking care of my son, cognitive impairment eg can't find things in the house, don't remember appointments, difficulty working).

 

I started using a compounding pharmacy (before I was just taking tablets out of the pill) so I am wondering if this is why? I have been taking the generic brand Elaxine SR (slow release). The compounding pharmacy I am now using instead crushes the Elaxine pill into powder and mixes it with E4M. E4M is a gelling agent that coats the granules and makes it slow release when it gets in contact with water in the gut (as explained by the pharmacist).

 

I would love someone’s thoughts/advice. I am feeling very discouraged at the moment.

 

In general does switching to non-slow release tablets make withdrawal much worse? Maybe the slow release E4M technology doesn’t work as well then the slow release coating technology on the normal Elaxine SR pills I use to take? 

 

Or is it maybe that my body is just in a totally different place after pregnancy/breastfeeding and I can’t handle a 10% taper anymore?

 

Maybe this is just normal withdrawal symptoms and I was just lucky during my 150mg to 75 mg taper and I just need to wait a few months to stabilize before trying to do another 10% reduction?

 

Also I read in the taper section on Effexor that it is especially difficult to come off this drug because of its short half life but I don’t really understand why that is exactly? If anyone is able to explain it to me in more detail I would really appreciate it.

 

Thanks so much for the support guys. Even though I haven’t been on here much it feels like a safe harbour for me to come to for support and advice when I have nowhere else to turn to (my doctors think I’m crazy of course for tapering like this). 

[Songbird]

Hi, Mea.  Many people find the lower doses more difficult to taper.  Here are some interesting topics about why the lower doses can be more difficult for many:

 

tapering according to the serotonin transporter occupancy curve

Why taper? Paper demonstrates importance of gradual change in plasma concentration

 

The 10% dose drops recommended here are only a guideline.  Many people do smaller drops - 5% or even 2.5% depending on how their body responds.  It's all about listening to your body and adjusting your taper to what works best for you.  It's also key to hold until you stabilise before starting a new drop.  If you are experiencing difficult withdrawal symptoms at the moment, holding at your current dose until they subside could be a good idea.

 

It is possible that the compounded formulation is absorbed differently from your previous tablets, and your body may have noticed the difference and need to adjust to it - which could be another good reason to hold for a while.

[Mea]

Thank you so much for your reply Songbird and I appreciate your advice.

 

I switched back to the Elaxine SR at the same dose (67.5 - breaking it up myself) and my brain started working again within hours of taking it! It was like night and day. So it obviously had something to do with the way they were compounding it and/or the slow release technology being different. I am feeling much more confident that I can continue to handle the tapering (and also even more motivated to get off this terrible medication that my brain is so dependent on to function). I will just need to stick with doing the pill cutting myself.

 

I will try to be more diligent about writing updates here as things progress.

 

Thank you again for this amazing community.

[Carmie]

Hi Mea, 

 

How are you doing?💚

[Mea]

I am trying to taper off Effexor and am at a loss about how to continue my taper and could really use some advice.

 

The Effexor pill that I take (Elaxine SR) has 6 small slow release tablets within the larger pill. Each of these small tablets are 12.5mg. I have been cutting the 12.5mg tablets in half and going down linearly (6.25mg each time) because I don’t want to lose the slow release component by crushing the pill and putting it in liquid. But I am getting to a point where I need to slow down my taper and stop doing it linearly. I am now down to 37.5mg and if I go down another half tablet that would be an 18% reduction. 



I tried using a compounding pharmacy a few months back because I needed a way to keep the slow release active but taper only 10%. They compounded it for me by crushing the Elaxine SR pill into powder and mixing it with E4M. E4M is a gelling agent that coats the granules and makes it slow release when it gets in contact with water in the gut (as explained by the pharmacist). But when I took the compounded pill I went into a MAJOR depression (it was like I had just stopped taking Effexor all together). 
It was terrible.

Ever since then I have been too scared to taper using a compounding pharmacy. And because of my suspicion about it being the lack of slow release that threw me into the depression I am too scared to crush the pills and put them into liquid because I don’t want to lose the slow release aspect.

 

I am at a loss and could really use some advice. 

 

My first question is why did the compounded Effexor (Elaxine SR) throw me into depression even though I did a normal small taper? Could it have been because the slow release technology they used wasn’t working? Or was it something else? Has anyone experienced something like this when compounding?

 

My second question is where do I go from here? The 12.5mg tablets are too small to cut into quarters accurately and I don’t want to lose the slow release component by crushing them and putting them into liquid. 

 

Suggestions would be much appreciated!!

[Altostrata]

Hi, Mea, here's your Intro topic.

 

It sounds like that E4M additive did too good a job keeping the drug from dissolving in your gut. That is why you experienced withdrawal.

 

You're probably familiar with

 

Is immediate-release venlafaxine available in Australia? If not, you'd either get a brand with 37.5mg capsules containing tiny beads and count them out to taper further,  OR
 

Quote

 

You can taper by removing these mini-tablets:

• Ascertain how many mini-tablets are in each of your capsules. Open a few and count the mini-tablets.
• Divide the dosage of each capsule by the number of mini-tablets in each capsule. That is the dosage of the mini-tablet.

(For example, every dosage of Venlablue contains some number of 12.5mg mini-tablets; 37.5mg contains 3 12.5mg mini-tablets while 150mg contains 12 12.5mg mini-tablets.)

 

Calculate the amount of your decrease, such as 10%, on your current daily dosage. If necessary, you may split a mini-tablet into smaller doses. For more precise dosing when splitting mini-tablets, see Using a digital scale to measure doses

 

The venlafaxine in a mini-tablet fragment may be released more quickly as it can be absorbed easier. If you take your venlafaxine in the morning, you may wish to take the mini-tablet fragment in the afternoon to avoid too much release of the drug at once. 

 

 

[Mea]

Thank you so much for your reply!

 

That makes so much sense now. It was literally like I had stopped cold turkey and that is probably exactly what happened with the slow release technology not releasing the drug into my gut. I can't believe I didn't think of that!! I feel a lot better now with continuing my taper and I'm going to search around for a different brand with micro-beads tomorrow.

 

Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it beyond measure.