peng: my battle with venlafaxine

[powerback]

1 minute ago, peng said:

Powerback,

PS - I know you walk and do active stuff when you can.

I once got rid of a rare attack of sciatica by going on a walk - some of it uphill - with the Mrs. a few years ago.  Quite surprised me.

At my last visit to the physio in our town (ex-NHS) for my pinched nerve (cervical radiculopathy from neck vertebra C6, so they say!), she said that any walking/exercise that gets your blood pumping around is good for things like our problems (nerve) as fresh oxygenated blood gets to the finest capillaries at the ends of our veins to flush away inflammation toxins.

 

Sounds plausible, anyway.  Hope you can give it a try and add in a splash of faith with it!

Thanks peng for your advice ,the last 3 weeks its back at me  bad .it cant be a coincidence it comes back when we get a new mattress .

that's what concerns me about my mental well being ,the last 6 weeks ive had withdrawl ,asthma,and sciatica pain at me ,this accumulation of different stressors is very worrying for me .plus the chemist couldn't get my usual generic meds so ive had horrible side affects ,all that goes around my mind is if I end up dead because of all this [I want to be alive ], all I become is a statistic  and I be dammed if ile let that happen .

Ive been doing all the house renovations over the summer ,my body is shutting down ,it doesn't recover after being worked .

I took all day one day to lay a floor in a bedroom were this time last year it would take me a couple of hours .its shocking .

so im now obsessed with understanding strength ,witch I noticed starting to reduce in November .

Take care Peng . 

 

 

 

[peng]

Sorry, folks, I updosed for the third time on 2nd August to 87.5mg after giving 75.0mg a try for 32 days with nothing doing as far as relief from adverse symptoms goes.

My plan now is to increase slowly each 2 to 4 weeks until I get to my lowest therapeutic dose - whatever that is.

Readers of my previous posts will know that a review of my journal/diaries/email archive/photos, etc, shows that I am in a worse place than I was when taking more of this drug over about 14 of the years from 2002.

 

This site is for people wishing to come off antidepressants, of course, and I have tried, but for me it has not worked, despite religiously following the tapering/supplement/exercise advice.

 

I believe that whilst weaning off ADs is a largely good thing, I am of the belief now that for myself at 73, my breakdown of health after PTSD events when I was 9-19, then 12 years of very irregularly rostered shift work - eventually each of them 12-hours long, my brain was remapped by those stresses ("The Body Keeps the Score"), hence my reduction of the AD has brought about a relapse of my original illness.

 

I know that not many on this website believe in the relapse of original illness theory, and I, myself (and family) have personally suffered a lot to try and disprove it, too.  I wanted to believe it was wrong - and it will be for many, I am sure, but, almost certainly, it is not for me.

[peng]

On 6/20/2018 at 11:48 AM, bubbles said:

Hello Peng

 

Hopefully a mod will be by soon to offer you some suggestions. In the meantime I just wanted to send you virtual hugs. I'm so sorry that you're feeling unwell.

 

Hugs

B

 

Loving you for that Bubbles and others.

 

Kind of disappointing, but my thread seems to be a no go area for either Altostrata or one of her well-versed cohorts.

I cannot help that the dog ate my hymn sheet, but would certainly appreciate some opinion.

 

Yours, from a fabulously cool UK, (16.6C/62F) this noontime.

[peng]

Eleven days on, updose to 87.5mg and feeling a bit better.  🌞

I am used to sheer downright treachery from venlafaxine, though!

 

I wonder if Alto has considered titling different threads by drug name?

e.g. Effexor/venlafaxine, which, by all accounts is particularly difficult to deal with as far as withdrawal is concerned.

Paxil, etc?

[peng]

 

Here is my graph of Effexor dose over last 3 and a half years.

Holding at 87.5mg just now.  Not bad last few days but fatigue keeping me a bit quiet and less active.

Have to wait 9 days and 27 days to see if 75.0mg dose or 87.5mg dose, respectively, are kicking in properly, or not.

 

Further research today: I found the following:

  

i - "A distinctive symptom of discontinuation is dizziness, which is not characteristic of relapse and can often therefore be used in making the differentiation."

 

ii - "Antidepressant withdrawal can look like depression

Discontinuation symptoms can include anxiety and depression. Since these may be the reason you were prescribed antidepressants in the first place, their reappearance may suggest that you're having a relapse and need ongoing treatment. Here's how to distinguish discontinuation symptoms from relapse:

·         Discontinuation symptoms emerge within days to weeks of stopping the medication or lowering the dose, whereas relapse symptoms develop later and more gradually.

·         Discontinuation symptoms often include physical complaints that aren't commonly found in depression, such as dizziness, flulike symptoms, and abnormal sensations.

·         Discontinuation symptoms disappear quickly if you take a dose of the antidepressant, while drug treatment of depression itself takes weeks to work.

·         Discontinuation symptoms resolve as the body readjusts, while recurrent depression continues and may get worse.

If symptoms last more than a month and are worsening, it's worth considering whether you're having a relapse of depression."

 

(i), comes from a paper on the difference between discontinuation and relapse, and (ii) comes from Harvard Health's website.

I am saying nothing about the integrity, or otherwise of the authors, but, as always, treat any advice with caution and use your best judgement.

 

Personally, I do not suffer from dizziness and my adverse symptoms returned after a 2-year period of tapering.

Further, I have had to be taking the updosed amounts for weeks, so far, with only partial recovery.

[peng]

Update at 17 days on 87.5mg Effexor & 49 days on > or = 75.0mg.

 

No better. Up and about by c9am, but fatigued, headache, apathy and anhedonia.  Sleep good and no anxiety.  Slight depression.

Will ride it out until 4 to 6 weeks on 87.5mg, if possible.

 

Last window (of 57 days) was in Jan/Feb/March this year - ending with crash 23 days into 62.5mg dose.

 

[peng]

21 days on 87.5mg Effexor.  No better.

Up and about by 9am, but fatigued, plus apathy and anhedonia.  Slight depression. Sleep good and no anxiety.  

 

Saw senior GP at my clinic this morning.  I trust his knowledge.  Seen him for over 20 years.  He was instrumental in me getting retirement on health grounds due depression when I was 57.

Showed him my graphs of effexor dose and mood demonstrating how, despite careful taper over 2 years, I crashed.

 

He reckons I should resume the 150mg dose eventually, which, I have to admit, saw me having a relatively good, active life.   "Coming off ADs is not for everyone".

So, there we are.

[Altostrata]

On 4/24/2018 at 2:42 AM, peng said:

Extreme fatigue much of last few days, despite only being on 56.3mg effexor, now.

Two years ago I was on 225mg and, interestingly, the fatigue is just as extreme at c25% of that dose!

 

Anyone else found that, too?

I can guess the answer, I suppose.

What a devil's potion these toxins are.

Never mind, let's move on.  Taking 75% less of the poison must be having some benefit to one's system.

 

On 5/31/2018 at 4:20 AM, peng said:

Had to reinstate with half a minitab (6.25mg) extra from 29th May.  So now back up to 62.5mg Effexor.

Will have to ride it out. 

....

 

On 6/20/2018 at 1:56 PM, peng said:

Not as seriously bad as what you suggest, Daisy.

I have been here several times before in the past.  I can suffer OK.

Just gonna hold at 62.5mg if I can.  If I have to updose, so be it.

 

 

On 7/3/2018 at 2:07 AM, peng said:

Due to particularly low mood and irritability, had to updose to 75mg on 1st July.

...

 

On 7/5/2018 at 1:08 AM, peng said:

Thanks for your visit, bubbles.

The first updose 56.3 to 62.5mg worked after 28 days, then failed.

Four days so far on 75mg.  No dramatic improvement, but I am able to function.  Don't expect me to pack and go on a holiday, though! (Anhedonia).  

 

5 hours ago, peng said:

Up and about by 9am, but fatigued, plus apathy and anhedonia.  Slight depression. Sleep good and no anxiety.  

 

Hi, peng. It's very good that you're sleeping well and you don't have anxiety.

 

I went back to read about your "crash 23 days into 62.5mg dose" but could not find your account of this, which probably happened in June.

 

It seems that when you started to taper Effexor, you already had fatigue and emotional anesthesia, is that correct?

 

Fatigue and emotional anesthesia can be side effects of the drug. If that's the dragon you're chasing, taking more Effexor will not relieve those symptoms.

 

It sounds like you might have been in Effexor poop-out when you started tapering.

 

When did the headaches start? You haven't had them before.

 

[peng]

Thanks for taking the time to examine my situation, Altostrata.  Appreciate it when other people are suffering more than I am.

 

1 - I think I was in poop-out in April 2016 at 225mg.

 

2 - Referring to my spreadsheet/journal I was in good spirits when I started the taper on 13 July 2016 from 225mg Effexor and had been taking prescribed 5mg folic acid for about 5 weeks following blood test (for fatigue).

I was using my rower often, too.  I cannot face it at the moment, or for the past weeks.  Don't think I am in emotional anesthesia, much if ever.  Emotionally, I am more likely to feel weepy or become crabbit (irritable) on a wide scale of dose size.

 

3 - Slight crash on 62.5mg was on 11 March 2018.

 

4 - Headaches probably due to neck/arm nerve pain spreading at times (cervical radiculopathy).  Don't have headache every day and not severe.  Probably spend too much time on pc, too.  More aches and pains in several places since I got onto low doses.  Effexor is used for pain, I found, and sore/damaged bits have almost certainly been masked for years (physio and skeeter agree.)

 

Not going to leap up to 150mg if I can help it.  Currently intent on holding at 87.5mg and feeling not bad, second half of today.

 

As my posts indicate, I am coming round to the view that some/many child/youth PTSD victims have had their brain circuitry modified by the trauma(s) and may be unlucky enough to require ADs always, after breakdown.

 

 

[bubbles]

Hello peng

 

I'm sorry to hear you're having a bad patch. Is your physio able to help you with getting to the bottom of the headaches etc?

BInsert other media

[bubbles]

(I don't know how I got that "Insert other media" there...)

[peng]

Thanks for asking , bubbles.

No headaches for a couple of days.

No physical labour for a while so trapped nerve seems to have settled down

I am awaiting result of MRI scan on neck.  Nationally, we have a severe shortage of radiologists.

Anyway, thankful for pain settling down.

Mood better today since yesterday afternoon.  Notes in my journal over the years indicate some improvements around 23/24 days after updoses of venlafaxine.  Today is 22nd day.

Current dose of 87.5mg is only 39% of what I was taking in July 2016.

In one way I am a failure on SA, but in another I am a success at the current time.

 

PS My GP yesterday agreed that effexor is known to be bad for the heart, but I had confirmation from the clinic today that an ecg I had last week confirms AOK, so that is good.

[powerback]

Oh no no peng are you a faliure ,far from it ,the ridiculous hand we are dealt with these drugs .

Your meticulous note keeping is a very good thing to fall back on to see.

You and all of us will help countless others .

Take care.

[bubbles]

Hi peng

 

First of all, I'm very glad to hear your mood and pain are improving, that's great news.

 

I think we have to look in terms of our successes. I'm trying to look at how far I've come. At 100mg of sertraline, botox was ineffective in controlling my bruxing (which is exacerbated) and I was in severe pain; at 75mg botox was effective; at 25mg I no longer needed it. Even if I have to back up all the way to 75mg, I'm still better off than I ever was at 100mg and that's an accomplishment. By having even that 25% reduction from my top dose, I've massively improved my quality of life. That's got to be a success.

 

[peng]

Thanks, bubbles, you are absolutely correct, of course.

Best wishes!

[LarryS]

Peng,  I hope your hanging in there and holding on.  I don't have any suggestions other than I thought of this saying I once heard:

Don't let the dog in the fight get the better of the fight in the DOG.

[peng]

Thanks for visit, Larry.

Feeling a bit better today.  8 hours sleep with no disturbance from needing to get up.  Last drink at night before 8pm may be reason and good policy.

Normal fatigue still there.  Had to updose to 100mg a few days ago - old familiar depression returned bad.

Will hold for up to several weeks if I can.

[bubbles]

Hello @peng

 

Glad to hear you're feeling a bit better and that you had a decent sleep. It sounds like the last-drink policy is a good idea.

[peng]

(This post was firstly placed on the thread about "delayed withdrawal".) 

 

"In my 2-year taper of effexor ending this summer with a crash, and back on 100mg XR today, I was certainly feeling good until below 60-70mg.

There was a definite lag of several weeks in depression/anxiety flashes/extreme fatigue/loss of appetite symptoms returning.  

The same thing happened in 2006 when I tapered rapidly to zero without the knowledge we have today with, e.g, SA.

I was doing outside work in frosty weather in February 2006 for part of that time.  Possibly a bit manic?  A few days later I found myself weeping during - of all things - a tv documentary about a hero of mine, Quincy Jones.  Stuff about his early youth, IIRC.

Next day or so I found myself at my GP's who implied that if I had stopped the reduction at, say, 75mg, "we wouldn't be having this conversation now".

 

As for the 2016/2018 taper from 225mg. I find myself wondering if I was as conscientious as I think I was in carrying it out.

It is easy to press on with dose reductions when you are feeling "not too bad"?

Thus, essentially, tapering too fast.

Saw the same GP as 12 years ago (who is senior man with knowledge and experience that I respect)and from my excel spread sheet of dosage/mood, confirmed that I seem to be at my best at 150mg dose - one of the threshholds at which effexor can work best.  (Curse it.)"

[bubbles]

@peng are you feeling better after your recent updose?

[peng]

Hi, bubbles, thanks for asking.

Yesterday I felt a lifting of mood and got stuck into an indoor job I could not be bothered with before.

I viewed it as a window.  Today may be the same.

Been caught out with windows before, but yesterday was the 14th day on 100mg.

The 3 or 4 antidepressants I have been familiar with in my life often seemed to kick in at around 9 to 15 days.

It would be great if 100mg could be stuck with, rather than having to go up to, say, 150 or 225mg again.

Continued good fortune with your  taper!

[LarryS]

Peng, Can you get 100 mg drug as a standard amount in UK?

Glad to hear you feeling a bit better. 

I have just dropped to 150 mg Venlafaxine cap yesterday.  I saw my general practice doctor, and he agreed to the amount.  I'm hopeful this will go well.

[bubbles]

On 9/11/2018 at 5:16 PM, peng said:

Yesterday I felt a lifting of mood and got stuck into an indoor job I could not be bothered with before.

I viewed it as a window.  Today may be the same.

 

I'm so pleased to hear that, and I hope it does indeed continue.

Best, B

 

 

 

[peng]

9 hours ago, LarryS said:

Peng, Can you get 100 mg drug as a standard amount in UK?

Not as far as I am aware, Larry.

However, some capsule brands come with multiples of 12.5mg minitablets inside them, others with beads.

Currently, I am inserting two 12.5mg minitabs into a 75mg beads capsule.

 

Remember, I felt fine going from 225mg to 150mg with 5 - 10% 4-week taper, but after a month at 150mg I had to hold for 5 months with some bad days and quite a few indifferent days.  House move during this time, though, but I felt more up about it than down.

Indeed, I thought I was tapering wisely, but, clearly, for my particular case, this was not so.

I would guess, if, say, you have not had any serious early/youth life trauma, you may do fine with luck.  However, do listen to your body and mind and if in doubt, hold.  It will not be worth the pain and grief if you press on regardless, at least that is what I found.  

Good luck to you whatever road you take!

[peng]

7 hours ago, bubbles said:

I'm so pleased to hear that, and I hope it does indeed continue.

Best, B

Thanks, bubbles. 

[powerback]

I understand your not around these days peng but I want to come over and say hi and how you doing ,I cringe with the way I reacted defensively  in the past but you showed your true self  ,you've been a wise friend and all the best to you my friend in your future .peace to with the holiday season around the corner .

👍.

[peng]

Went up to 150mg a few weeks ago in gentle increments.

I was on this amount or more for about 12 years with good quality of life.

Relapse has brought me to the point of realising I am one who needs this medication to avoid going under.  I will be 74 in a few months anyway.

I believe other contacts on here may be similar. (ACE, PTSD, e.g.)

 

This year had a nightmare 5 weeks with removal of failed root-implant, this triggered unilateral acute sinusitis as roots had punctured maxillary sinus!

Still trying to recover.  Had 2 lots of antibiotics.  The tooth extraction and "dry socket" problem ("the black hole of dentistry") has given me worst pain for decades and lasting for many days.

The extraction of the infected molar has opened a nest of vipers.  Private dentist and cost over £500 this!

He should stick to giving folks the Ariana smile and implants which will outlive the earth. (at a price.)  

 

I am hoping fatigue and other symptoms, perhaps even depression have been due to constant inflammation in my system.

If you read the latest papers on poor dental health you will see how serious a matter it can be for the rest of our body, including potentially, the brain.

 

By the way, clarithromycin antibiotic gave me acute anxiety.  I googled but really thought it was accompanying underlying depression.  Lo and behold, some folks have experienced this, too - even to the point of going to A&E thinking they were dying!

Anyway, all passed after course of ABs finished.

 

Best wishes, all.

[powerback]

27 minutes ago, peng said:

If you read the latest papers on poor dental health you will see how serious a matter it can be for the rest of our body, including potentially, the brain.

Hi Peng nice to see you around but so sorry to hear of your troubles.

I need an old root canal out myself [no pain but a constant infection that small bit of puss comes out]

I watched a very good documentary on netflix called "root cause ".OMG i was blown away by it .people could have all kinds of issues with there health and not realise its anything to do with there dental work .

I mite hold out for a while and see an " holistic dentist ".way to weak for dental work.

Take care and hope you find relief .

[peng]

PB, thanks for your reply.

Although I have been off site mostly, I did keep a few contacts' replies coming - including yours - I just had to know how you were doing.  I could see you are/have been suffering immensely.

 

With all due respect to others, tinkering with crumbs of medication and drinking vegetable juice, as I have said before, based on my own experience is like trying to shift a hill with a teaspoon, for people with remapped brains shaped during ACE.

I have had to conclude that for myself, and just my opinion, of course.  I believe you need to see a sound, professional medical/health person face to face about your mental health.

 

Yes, I saw your post about "root cause".  One of my dentists knew of it.

In the profession they are poo-pooing it, but I know from a chat with someone else with inside knowledge that dentists are leaving the profession in droves.

The paperwork, record keeping, etc. in case of litigation is stressing them out.  "Loadsa money" for them that are prepared to live under such a cloud, of course.

Based on my own handful of screw ups by dentists, I am not surprised.

I am going to be even more thorough about my remaining teeth.  Your infected failed root can treated tooth sounds just like what I had.  Probably making you feel more ill than poor mental health alone would do.

The hygienist said that food and bacteria were being trapped all the time in a cavity in the duff tooth, despite my thorough cleaning.  (Use the little brushes that go inbetween the teeth rather than flossing, I was told.)

 

Just now, I am feeling better moodwise and looking for more improvement.  This morning I did 30 times up and down the staircase for the first time in 6 weeks.

All the best PB.  Will keep an eye on you.

[powerback]

24 minutes ago, peng said:

I believe you need to see a sound, professional medical/health person face to face about your mental health.

 I agree ,but sadly i wished i never touched the drugs in the first place ,i never had a system that was made for these drugs.Extensive therapy with a knowledgeable  forensic psychologist was my best bet .I'm trying to get to a good one in the next few months [hes about 150km away] .

There's one guy and he is based in affluent area ,that's who i needed to see 9 years ago ,he embraces the human spirit . i went to see him once about 18months ago .he is well in hes 80s now and mostly retired .

 

On a similar note ,my partner knows this woman [a phycologist] ,she had her own health troubles [not meds].i looked her up .she has a full blown website on offering her services to businesses  ,on how to develop there staff and further there productivity ,to me this smacks of hypocrisy ,all her training is being used for the market place ,not helping humans .this is the modern world we live .

 

I live in a working class area and the services are a product of the area postcode  ,even my doctor said this to me 

I said something to my DR the last time i was with him about a place he sent me ,and he said a lot of them people are in that waiting room because of there home environment and  in my opinion if the home environment cant change then all there is ,is mind numbing suppressing  meds for them. they do offer CBT so it is progressive to a degree .

Ive mapped out my past and sadly these drugs only prevented me from learning and understanding my trauma.Of course if i knew what i was in for dropping the meds ,i wouldn't of dropped them .my nervous system could never allow meds again . 

 

I was amazed by what was said in "root cause" about a root canal never being able to be infection free .i cant wait to get my one out .

Good on ye with the stair case .

Take care Peng .

 

[LarryS]

Hi Peng,  Just thought I would drop by to see how you are doing.  Sounds like up dose to 150 mg venlafaxine is working for you.  My best regards to You.

[peng]

Thanks, Larry.  I do so appreciate your visit.

Am up to 162.5mg past week.  A lot, I know, but I just look at the recent 12 years of quality life I had when on 150-225mg and realise that it is a reasonable trade off.  Coming off the medication for me was unrealistic idealism and I crashed and have had the worst year to 18 months or so since 30 years ago!

 

Also, most of this year, I have had dental related pain then bacterial sinusitis for nearly 10 weeks, so that has not helped.  Extraction of failed infected root canal treated molar.  3 lots of different antibiotics have not cleared coloured catarrh, nor fatigue, but I am sleeping reasonably and mood is not bad.  Researching a lot on probiotics.  There is an explosion of interest now due to gloomy prospects for antibiotics and other meds.

This week we hear that the number of prescriptions for antidepressants in England has soared in the last ten years.  Where are we going?  The American Dream of the 1950s would have been a great place to stop off!

 

I see you are still feeling OK having now reduced to 75mg.  Do play it cautiously now, though.  I was feeling good until I got down to 62.5mg, then crashed badly just over a year ago.

 

Keep listening to the music, too, as do I - it could be our salvation.  Personally, I find being in our wild country a great tonic, too, but have not made it there for some time.

Will send you link to my photo site by pm.

All the best to you and yours for the future, Larry.

[LarryS]

Peng, I'm saddened to hear you have increased your dose so high.  I know little, and do not want you to even think that I'm making a judgement of you.  I have just been doing a lot of reading, particularly about the toxicity of antidepressants.  I will pass on a link to something I just read for your consideration.  My best to you.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862059/

 

[peng]

I understand your dismay, Larry.  But I have suffered so much.  Unbearably so.

If you yourself and others do not have a history of adverse childhood experiences, I am more optimistic that you may not crash like I did.

I have read endless papers, everyday, too, and I am strong-willed with a high pain threshhold, but had to surrender.

I am nearly 74 and that is several years older than the life expectancy for men in many urban districts similar to the one from whence I came, so, in my view, I am just being philosophical about the situation I am in.

Also, I hate having to put up with pain from a trapped nerve in my neck and being unable to do stuff like I have done since forever.

Today I had an appointment with a plastic surgeon about an unusual blemish on my hairline.  I will be having it removed and sampled.  In a month's time I have an appointment with an ENT surgeon to check out this bacterial sinus infection I have had for about 10 weeks after dental work.  I am run down fighting this infection and nothing seems to work to get rid of it.  3 courses antibiotics, saline rinse, steam/vapours etc. etc. you name it.

Still hopeful of feeling better, though.

Best wishes.

[Lloyd]

Hi Peng, how are you feeling over all with the updose of Effexor?

[peng]

Wow! You are doing well, Lloyd, I now recall.  Stick at it.  Wish I had only been on a max of 75mg instead of up to 3 times that.  If you have youth on your side (compared to me b1945) you will probably do better I would expect.

This drug really does lock us in its grip the longer we are on it.

 

Generally at the moment I am "not bad", and that is despite having had 10 weeks of bacterially infected sinus from failed dental procedure in January. 

On my Excel spread sheet journal I have marked the days with coloured boxes ie bad (red) - not bad (amber) and good (yellow).  This is quantifying the degree of anxiety and/or depression being suffered.

 

In 2019 - Updosing.  (125-163mg) my tally of reds has been

Jan 11

Feb 4

March 1.

 

In 2018 my total of reds was 61. (75-56-125mg).  Tapering, but crashed in May.  Worst year for several decades, I guess. Reintroduced and updosed.

In 2017 6. (150-75mg).  Tapering.

In 2016 9. (150-225-150mg).  Started taper July.

In 2015 nil. (187-225mg)

In 2014 1 (187-225mg)

2007-2013, incl.  nil during this 7-year period.  (mostly 150-187mg).  Most days, by far, yellow (good).

 

OK, all very subjective, but many I see do use journals to record what kind of day(s) they are having.  It is the best we can do to monitor progress or deterioration.

 

Good luck with your plan and thanks for the vist, Lloyd.