Rico: Zyprexa tapering

[AliG]

I believe that the inability to nap and 'switch off' is more a zyprexa side effect than a destabilized CNS. One of the members here that is tapering the zyprexa has reported to me the same thing.

 

It's all part of withdrawal and not just isolated to Zyprexa. Fatigue / depression are very common W/D symptoms.

 

If you're still having symptoms, then it's wise to hold just a tad longer and let your CNS catch up.

[Rico]

Hi everyone,

 

I am quite scared at the moment. I woke up today earlier than usual with a fair bit of anxiety.

 

My brain also feels weak, and has been for a while. I find that I have no energy to process emotions and I feel so fragile.

 

I went back to the sleep because I was tired and slept for a few hours. I woke up depressed with suicidal thoughts and felt brain tremor.

 

The reason I am scared was because I started thinking that maybe the reason I am not well this week compared to last week is because I am bipolar, and that I have had a mood swing - which really started a few days ago when I woke up depressed with no energy.

 

How can I know if I am experiencing withdrawals or a bipolar mood swing?

 

This makes me really worry, because I am have been on every drug for bipolar and all I have had are debilitating side effects that left me unable to work.

 

I have lost trust in doctors too because of how they have managed medications and caused me to suffer unnecessarily.

 

I am feeling very weak and fragile right now.

[scallywag]

Rico

 

What you are experiencing is most probably a withdrawal symptom. You may find it helpful to have a look at this discussion topic

 

Is it withdrawal or relapse or something else?

[Rico]

Thanks scallywag. I read through that post.

 

I am really unwell right now. I slept less than the night before and woke up with brain tremors. I am in bed now very depressed and no energy. I feel extremely awful.

 

Is there anything I need to do? Just hold on these doses? I am so sick right now.

[Rico]

Hi, I just wanted to write here because I don't really have any other support. If I turned to my dr (who has abandoned me anyway), he would suggest I increase my medications.

 

I haven't made any drastic changes to anything and I have been doing my best to use all the coping tools I have learnt here, but the depression, fatigue, and mental & physical pain is quite unbearable at the moment.

 

I am very scared. I hope this is withdrawal, but right now it feels like there is something seriously wrong with me - either mentally or physically.

 

I feel very worn down and have zero energy at all. Even when I remember something, I forget it shortly afterwards.

 

I am not as helpless as I used to be thanks to this forum, but this withdrawal (if that's what it is) is extremely painful.

[ang]

Hi, Rico.

 

Thank you for sharing your story. I added paragraph breaks to make it easier for everyone to read. 

 

Your story is quite powerful, and you've overcome a great deal. 

 

The fact that you went to college and built an IT career while taking these very powerful mind altering drugs says how strong and how smart you are. I also made it through college while on massive amounts of drugs, and it was a struggle each and every day with memory problems and severe fatigue. 

 

There's an analogy that I like to share:  when you are on these massive drug cocktails, it's like having weights on your ankles and wrists. You carry this weight with you, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It's a struggle far and above what everyone around you has to deal with.

 

But as you shed these drugs, you shed these weights. And as you slowly get off these drugs and enter the recovery phase, you continue to shed more and more of the weight, more and more of the burden. 

 

Until one day, you are healed enough to realize exactly how much weight you've had to shoulder all of these years. And you realize exactly how strong you are now. So even though it's hell right now, you are building up mental and physical strength.

 

So I don't think any of this is a waste or reason to beat yourself up over. 

 

Keep moving forward, Rico. We'll be with you all the way. 

So well said, that is so, so true, and when you realise you survived, and those weights are becoming less, wow.............                        You are very strong person Rico, well done.

[Rico]

I am really unwell today and have been for the last 5 days. I am experiencing severe depresssion and a lot of pain in my head. After I take the zyprexa dose at night, I feel pain / pressure in my frontal lobe. I can barely do anything. I don't know what to do or can do.

[Rico]

Hi, I need help please.

 

Since mid-November, I started taking vitamin supplements in the morning and night. This was after my integrative medicine doctor discovered that my pyrolles were off the chart (241 compared to a 10-20 range).

 

I didn't have any issues at all when taking these vitamins, but I just wanted to mention them now because I am not doing well at the moment and was just wondering if they may have anything to do with my current situation.

 

The morning vitamins include:

 

Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid)           500MG

Vitamin D3 (Cholecaliferol)        1000IU

Vitamin E (Mixed Tocopherpos) 200 MG

Thiamin B1                                  10 MG

Nicotinamide B3                          10 MG

Pyridoxine HCL B6                     200 MG

Pyridocal-5-Phosphate                 50 MG

Riboflavin-5-Phosphate                  5 MG

Biotin                                          500MCG

Calcium (Citrate)                        600MG

Selenium (Selenomethionine)  100MCG

Magnesium (Glycinate)           300MG

 

 

The evening vitamins include:

 

Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) 550 MG

Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 1000UI

Vitamin E (Mixed Tocopherois) 500 MCG

Zinc (Picolinate)  75MG

Magnesium (Glycinate) 600 MG

 

--

 

Once again, up until last Saturday (5 days ago), I was traveling ok on these vitamins which were started mid-november.

 

I am now doubting whether I have made the right decision to take these supplements. I was assured that it would not affect my tapering. I am now kicking myself.

 

I feel like I have done everything wrong and I am quite upset with myself.

 

Should I just stop taking these vitamins now, will I get really sick if I do? I am so lost at the moment, it has been hell for the last 5 days. I really need some guidance please.

[Rico]

Hi, I am still very unwell and feel like I am getting worse.

 

After taking the zyprexa 1.625 last night, I became very depressed and cried uncontrollably. This happened the night before too.

 

I woke up with only 5 hours sleep extremely dysfunctional and anxious. I am really tired but when I try to go back to sleep I can't. I can feel my heart beat in my neck and head when I lie down too. I am also feeling appallingly ill. It's hell right now.

 

Thanks

Rico

[Altostrata]

Five hours sleep is not too bad in these situations. Are you able to practice meditation when you're anxious like this?

 

It's possible you're having a bad reaction to some of that basket of vitamins you're taking. Vitamin D3 taken at night can keep you awake. B vitamins in general tend to have this effect.

[Rico]

Thanks for your reply Alto. I am finding it difficult to practice meditation or relax. I am not sure if this is akathisia, but I am feeling an intense restlessness, combined with mental pain and anxiety. Also, my right leg won't stop shaking when I lie down.

 

I'll stop the vitamins and see how I go.

 

I feel like I have come off the rails.

[Rico]

Hi..within 30 minutes of taking the zyprexa tonight, I felt intense pain and pressure at the front of my head, followed by severe depression. I am left in an agitated state and lots of pain.

 

This is definitely not withdrawal, but an effect of the zyprexa. I am despairing because I know I can't jus stop it and that it needs to be tapering slowly. I spoke to my new psychiatrist today (who dosent push medications and is more a psychotherapist) and she suggested that I may have become allergic to zyprexa.

 

What does one do in this scenario? I really don't want to be going through this every day.

 

Thanks

Rico

[Rico]

I took two painkillers last night before going to bed because the pain in my head was severe. I managed to sleep 3-4 hours but woke up extremely depressed, agitated and barely able to talk. I broke down in the living room in despair. I don't know what do. Can someone please help. I don't want to end up in hospital. The zyprexa is really making me sick and I am tempted to just stop it.

 

I have tried going back to sleep, but I am in pain and I can't switch off, my mind is swirling around with random thoughts and memories.

 

What on earth is going on???

[Altostrata]

Rico, you need to decide if this adverse reaction is severe enough to warrant a more rapid decrease of Zyprexa, which might cause withdrawal symptoms.

 

This is your decision, you need to assess how you're feeling and whether you can tolerate withdrawal symptoms.

[Rico]

Thank you very much Alto for your reply. The support from this forum means a lot to me.

 

I cannot handle this reaction any longer and will tonight reduce the zyprexa to 1.25 by cutting the standard tablet in half. I don't have access to anything smaller than 1.625 until Tuesday.

 

My only concern is sleep. I am very sleep deprived at the moment and feeling extremely fragile and weak. Is there anything you can recommend regarding this?

 

I will let you know how I go and thank you once again for the support.

[Shep]

Hi, Rico.

 

Are these head symptoms the same as you were having earlier, back when you were dealing with a different form of liquid Zyprexa? Sorry, I can't remember all of the details, but your current symptoms seem to be very similar to what you were struggling with earlier. 

 

Has anything changed with your Zyprexa formula? 

 

I would keep the vitamin supplements to a minimum, as we do sometimes become hyper-sensitive to supplements midstream during a taper. The nervous system is in constant change and can become hyper-reactive. 

 

This could also be a wave from your previous 25% Zyprexa reduction just catching up to you or your more recent 10% Epilim reduction. It's really hard to say. 

 

Please let us know how you're doing with your latest cut. I am concerned about your fast reduction, but hoping it has a positive effect. 

 

I've found that the body scan meditation can be helpful for pain, even for headaches, as it has a "calming" effect on the entire CNS.  This is Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn's version. Kabat-Zinn has spent several decades studying how mindfulness can reduce chronic pain. 

 

Jon Kabat-Zinn: Body Scan

 

Sending healing vibes your way. 

 

 

[AliG]

Rico . Sleep will come in time. If you can be patient  - sleep will revert to normal.  You have to have " patience " and ride the symptoms out .

" Acceptance "  is key .

[JanCarol]

Hey Rico - I hope that reducing your Zyprexa and stopping the B vitamins helps.

 

I think that you were moving okay until you decreased your Epilim and started the vitamins (similar time frame)

 

Please, especially if you are going to accelerate your taper of Zyprexa, please, hold on the Epilim until you are done with your changes in Zyprexa.

 

About the B-vitamins, often integrative medicine does not understand withdrawal in the same way that an MD doesn't understand it.  The shotgun approach to mood stabilization might be fine - if you were not in withdrawal.  Unfortunately, most approaches just throw a bunch of ingredients and hope that one or two of them get positive response.  What an integrative doctor doesn't expect is that you might, while in withdrawal, react to the supplements.

 

That is why we only ever try one ingredient at a time, never a complex.  Looking at your complex, it looks like the B6/P5P is awfully high, while the niacin is very low.  Further, the studies for B3 and mood control, all use Niacin, not Nicotinamide or Niacinamide.  They have been tried, but do not achieve the successes in mood control of niacin.

 

All of these can be very stimulating, and the psych drugs strip you of these things, too.  So it can be quite a shock to a body-in-withdrawal to get all of these substances at once.  The only supplements we recommend at SA are Magnesium and Omega-3 fish oil, and even then, sometimes people react to them.  But these are the only ones that seem to get enough positive response to recommend (so far).

 

You wrote:

 

One thing I am finding difficult is dealing with the resentment that I have towards my (old) doctor. It's not just due to his incompetence and recklessness with medication, but more to do with the way he patronized me and treated me for over 18 years in his care. He convinced me and my family that I was biologically defective and dismissed all my complaints regarding side effects. It wasn't until late this year that he said he couldn't help me any further because he had run out of drugs to try. 

I know forgiveness is the key etc, but I just don't know how right now. 

Oh yeah. 

 

The perpetrator.  I'm with Shep when she says "institutionalized violence"

 

My problem is that for me, it's not just one doctor, but a whole string of them.  And the drug companies, and the media, and the stigma "awareness raising campaigns" (are you sad? call your doctor!).  And the doctors of my family.  And my friends.  And the culture of "take your medicine, like insulin for diabetes."  I wish I could focus all of my anger onto one person - but 

 

Even if I could - I'll tell you that I've heard a lot about the benefits of forgiveness.  THing is, when you've been hurt so badly, forgiveness might not even be appropriate!  I'm not suggesting vengeance, or retribution, or "getting even," or even just confronting the target of the anger and the pain.

 

But instead, be gentle with yourself.  If you're not ready to forgive yet, explore your feelings about it.  If you are too angry to forgive, then explore the anger.  If you are too sad from what you've lost, then explore the sadness.  If you're still numb from the drugs, then explore "feeling" of any sort, even if it is the softness of a blanket, or cool water on your face.  You may be miles and miles away from forgiveness, which is a journey, not a destination.

 

At some point, you may realize that you have already forgiven or forgotten the perpetrator.  Or moved on in some way, and you will realize that forgiveness was not the point of freedom, but something else which gave you strength.

 

There is discussion of this on boards about abuse and narcissism, that sometimes forgiving is not the healthy thing to do.  It's your journey, you decide.

 

Lastly:

 

I am not sure whether I should continue to taper the Epilim as well as the Zyprexa. I have read through the link you provided (thank you) and I understand that it would be difficult to work out which drug is causing the withdrawal symptoms.

 

Please hold off on tapering the Epilim until you are stabilized.  You are still tapering quite quickly, and while you are reducing in 10% increments, your first cut was 25%.

 

These can be withdrawal symptoms, and I fear if you go too fast, you will get caught again.  It happens so often, and is especially difficult with drugs like zyprexa which never feel good, were never meant to feel good, which shut you down and cut you off from so much of what you believe to be "you."  But if you go too fast, the whiplash can really get you into trouble.  

 

Please let us know how you are going, after removing the B vitamins, and reducing the Zyprexa again.  

 

But also - please hold and please wait.  Be kind and patient with yourself.  It takes time to sneak out from under these drugs.

 

It will get better.  

 

I hope you see the Sun today.

[Rico]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

The head symptoms were a little bit different on the 1.625. They were more of an intense pressure followed by severe depression.

 

The 1.625 was a capsule compounded by a pharmacy. They used the zyprexa tablets that I provided.

 

Last night I took 1.25mg by cutting the tablet in half. I have just woken up after 4 hours I sleep.

 

I am tired, out of it and can barely function. My brain feels inflamed.

 

To be honest, I am feeling quite suicidal now.

 

I don't know what's happened. I was travelling ok and then last Saturday I woke up fatigued, depressed and now I am at my lowest point ever.

 

I feel I can't go on. I am in pain, slow, barely able to think it do anything. I am anxious - everything really. I feel like I am going to be disable for life now.

 

Please my dear friends what should I do? I am in a complete mess. I am utterly disappointed with myself and blame myself for all this. I can barely talk or focus or anything.

 

Should I go back to 2.5 and start all over again.

 

I think the problems did start happening after I reduced the Epilim by 10% but I never thought that that would do anything. Or maybe it is a result of the initial 25% reduction, I don't know. See I have messed myself up once again.

 

I want to bawl my eyes out but I don't have the energy to.

 

I am really desperate for help. I am tempted to call an ambulance but I don't want to be mistreated again in the public health system.

 

I really look forward to your reply. I am sorry if I am a burden. This is really really really difficult.

[Rico]

By the way, I am trying to go back to sleep now but I can't. I am in a lot of pain and severely depressed.

[nz11]

Rico i am so sorry you are suffering like this.

It sounds to me even though you felt you were sick and needed to get off faster that the large drop has made you even sicker than you could imagine.

[Shep]

Should I go back to 2.5 and start all over again.

 

 

 

No, I wouldn't go up to 2.5 mg and start again. Your CNS is destabilized now, so it will quite possibly over-react to that high a dose.

 

I'm very concerned that you are all over the place with your thoughts right now, Rico. And that can be very dangerous.  Writing out your game plan, getting feedback and then sticking to it is going to be imperative.  Let us help you with that and then please stick to the game plan. 

 

 

 

I think the problems did start happening after I reduced the Epilim by 10% but I never thought that that would do anything. Or maybe it is a result of the initial 25% reduction, I don't know. See I have messed myself up once again.

 

 

 

The 1.625 was a capsule compounded by a pharmacy. They used the zyprexa tablets that I provided.

 

Last night I took 1.25mg by cutting the tablet in half. I have just woken up after 4 hours I sleep. 

 

 

If the drop in Epilim was what triggered this, than I'm not sure what's to be gained by this massive latest drop you've taken in Zyprexa, going from 1.625 down to 1.25 mg. This is a 23% reduction in Zyprexa.

 

Please keep us updated. I fear these massive reductions in Zyprexa, along with the 10% reduction in Epilim, is causing a complete destabilization of your CNS.

 

You're in survival mode right now, Rico, and it's rough. I know. I did cold turkeys and rapid tapers off most of my drugs and it did cause severe rebound psychosis and dp/dr, so please be very, very careful.

 

Let's come up with a solid game plan for you and then really try to stick with it. Like JanCarol, I would encourage you to leave the Epilim alone and focus on the Zyprexa. 

 

Are you staying with 1.25 mg of Zyprexa or the 1.625 mg dose? 

[Rico]

The reason I changed the dose of zyprexa from 1.625 to 1.25 is because I started having adverse reactions to the 1.625 - severe head pain followed by depresssion. I didn't have any other lower dose because I have been getting my tapers compounded so I cut the zyprexa 2.5 in half.

 

I woke up this morning after only a few hours sleep and couldn't get back to sleep. My mind was racing and I felt like things were getting out of control. I took 5mg of Valium and managed to get 5 hours sleep.

 

I have 5 more days supply of 1.625 left.

 

Should I go back to 1.625 or 1.25? As you can see from my posts over the last several days, I started experiencing problems on the 1.625.

 

I don't know what to do. I feel out of control at the moment and I am experiencing a lot of mental pain. I was even tempted to call an ambulance, but that would mean I end up in a public hospital treated like dirt again.

 

This is incredibly difficult and I feel like I am going to be disabled forever.

 

The symptoms I have at present are:

 

- exhausted

- highly anxious

- very depressed

- mind racing

 

I really hope you can help me. I am very sick right now. I desperately want relief from all this.

 

Thank you with all my heart

[Shep]

Right now, it's going to be impossible to say what all is going on between the additional pain meds and valium.

 

But let's look a bit farther out. Are you attempting to do a fast exit off the Zyprexa? 

 

If so, I wouldn't go back up, if you're thinking this is an adverse reaction happening. 

 

But if you're wanting to do a proper taper, then I would go back up on the Zyprexa to 1.625 mg. 

 

You're in a catch-22 here because you need to weigh the adverse reaction against Zyprexa withdrawal. 

 

Please consider what Alto is saying in her post here:

 

 

Rico, you need to decide if this adverse reaction is severe enough to warrant a more rapid decrease of Zyprexa, which might cause withdrawal symptoms.

 

This is your decision, you need to assess how you're feeling and whether you can tolerate withdrawal symptoms.

 

 

 

Also, please re-read what Alto and JanCarol have written about your vitamins, especially the D3 and B vitamins. 

 

It seems like you're trying to "fix" each symptom as they appear, but at some point - whether you do a rapid Zyprexa taper or you do a hold and try to stabilize - I hope you reach the point where you can use other methods of dealing with the physical and emotional pain without needing to remove a drug quickly, add supplements, or take pain meds or benzos. 

 

I have a feeling you may also be dealing with akathisia, as there's a chronic restlessness and anxiety level in your posts. 

 

So do try to surround yourself with as much "calm" as possible - soft music, a relaxing bath, lavender oil, hot tea, etc. 

 

And really think about Alto's quote that I just posted. This is a decision that only you can make.

 

Coming off these kinds of drugs after nearly two decades use is not going to be easy, but it is doable. It is survivable. But it's going to be uncomfortable and sometimes painful for quite awhile. But these small "calming" ideas can really help. Also, learning to distract can be extremely helpful. It's hard when you don't feel well, but after you start learning the art of distraction, it will become habit.

 

Sending healing vibes your way, Rico. Please let us know what you decide to do. 

[Rico]

I have been sick from zyprexa from day 1. I am not trying to take a fast exit for the sake of it, I have been experiencing adverse reactions at pretty much all the doses. There has only been a couple of weeks that I was doing better after reducing from 1.875 to 1.625.

 

For whatever reason exactly a week ago, I started feeling depressed and fatigued and things progressively got worse. At some point, taking the 1.625 zyprexa at night caused severe head pains followed by severe depression. This happened for several nights in a row. I don't remember everything and that's why I was documenting everything here.

 

So, the only reason I decreased the dosage of zyprexa was because of the reaction I was having on the 1.625. I didn't have any other dose available but 1.25 because I have been using a compounding pharmacy for the other doses

 

I honestly don't know now what I should do - to go back up to 1.625 or to try and hold at 1.25.

 

I am happy to taper zyprexa slowly, but my issue all long is the adverse reactions I have been getting from it.

 

 

You are right, I am experiencing a lot of anxiety, restlessness and akathisia. It feels like my body doesn't know how to rest or sleep anymore. I am in a constant state of anxiety.

 

Every time I lay down and close my eyes, my brain just won't switch off and I have suicidal thoughts.

 

As for the vitamins, I stopped taking them yesterday. I am not too sure if this was a good idea either because I felt that they were helping when I first started taking them a few weeks' ago. am I experiencing withdrawal from the vitamins too? I don't know.

 

I listened today to the overthinking meditation - the one you sent me Shep - and it helped.

 

So where do you think I should go from here?

[Shep]

This is a tough place to be in, Rico. I do feel for you because I know first hand what you're going through.

 

If you feel that it's best to get off the Zyprexa, then I wouldn't go back up in dose. Keep in mind that a faster exit will mean a harder withdrawal. So do weigh that against the adverse reaction.

 

You may also be dealing with some paradoxical reactions, as you are taking 3 "brakes". If that's the case, than getting off the Zyprexa may help with that. 

 

You've been rather consistent saying that the Zyprexa is causing an adverse reaction, so perhaps go with that thought. 

 

But please do as much self care as you can. I'm glad the overthinking meditation is helpful. I listened to hundreds of meditations during my worst symptoms, and to be honest, I'm glad I did because when I went through a phase of looping thoughts, my thoughts were so peaceful because they were looping my guided meditations! Lol! So there was a definite payoff with that. 

 

There's also the psychological boost that comes from seeing the drug reduced, but please don't let that over-ride the safety concerns of doing a rapid taper, if that makes sense. You being safe is the most important outcome. 

 

Also, please be extremely mindful of rebound psychosis from coming off the Zyprexa too quickly. You sound like although you're in pain, you are quite in touch with reality, so you're doing well so far. I worry about folks having rebound psychosis because that usually means automatic hospitalization and getting re-drugged.

 

And I really don't want that for you, so please be safe. 

[Rico]

Thanks Shep. I'll continue on the 1.25 for now.

 

At this stage, I am absolutely petrified that I will not be able to cope.

 

I am also beating myself up when I think about the time I was doing ok.

 

I will provide an update tomorrow.

 

Thank you

[Rico]

Hi Jan/Shep,

 

Regarding the vitamin supplements, what should I do. I can't separate them because they all came compounded together.

 

The reason the integrative doctor prescribed this vitamin mix is because urine/blood tests revealed that I had very high pyrolle reading - 241.

 

When I started taking them I felt better and more calmer.

 

However, if you think I should just dump them, then I am happy to do.

 

I'll just stick to fish oil and magnesium if this is the case.

 

I am a bit confused right now.

[nz11]

Rico ive been reading this page and do you think you are confusing adverse reactions to withdrawal? I'm just putting that out there.

Personally i think you are.

I also think its far better to go back up in the dose of zyprexa than start taking valium if things have gotten that bad due to the too big drop in zyprexa.

Its strange that the pdoc thinks you are allergic to zyprexa well how come that call coinicdes with your too fast taper?

Could he/she be confusing withdrawal symptoms with allergies?

 

You have been on these drugs for many many years. Even 5% cuts may be going to be a big ask imo.

You are saying you are suicidal ...do you think that is an adverse reaction too? Did you know that is a classic withdrawal symptom.

 

You have basically dropped 50% of your dose in one month and after 20 years off this drug or similar thats a massive drop. Its no surprise that you are suffering.

Its your call of course but if i were you i would give serious consideration to an updose.

 

I am also beating myself up when I think about the time I was doing ok.

When was the time you refer to here when you feel you were 'doing ok' ?

 

 

For whatever reason exactly a week ago, I started feeling depressed and fatigued and things progressively got worse. At some point, taking the 1.625 zyprexa at night caused severe head pains followed by severe depression. This happened for several nights in a row. I don't remember everything and that's why I was documenting everything here.

 

So, the only reason I decreased the dosage of zyprexa was because of the reaction I was having on the 1.625. I didn't have any other dose available but 1.25 because I have been using a compounding pharmacy for the other doses

 

The 'a week ago' you refer to was on or about the 11 Dec which is when (12 dec as per your sig) you dropped to 1.875.

And that was a 25 % drop so no wonder things got progressively worse. You say the ONLY reason you dropped further to 1.625 was the 'head pains and severe depression' but this is a typical manifestation of what happens when withdrawal is triggered. I can totally relate to this. Then for me came uncontrollable uncharacteristic crying spells  and suicidal thoughts.

[Rico]

Hi Nz11,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

Rico ive been reading this page and do you think you are confusing adverse reactions to withdrawal? I'm just putting that out there.

Personally i think you are.

 

I have been feeling sick from Zyprexa at all the doses I have been on (see post on November 3 for example, when I was on 2.5). After I take it, I experience a whole bunch of symptoms that I have not experienced in the past when I have taken Zyprexa. I have been feeling this way since August, when I was started on 10mgs of Zyprexa. The doctor gave me the 10mgs of Zyprexa for anxiety, but when I took it, I became severely depressed and wrote out a suicide note. I couldn't sleep, talk and I was very sick. It was later reduced to 5 then 2.5. And even on the 2.5, I was still having issues. In the past, when I have taken zyprexa, I get sedated and get a fairly good sleep. This has not happened this time round.

 

 

I also think its far better to go back up in the dose of zyprexa than start taking valium if things have gotten that bad due to the too big drop in zyprexa.

Its strange that the pdoc thinks you are allergic to zyprexa well how come that call coinicdes with your too fast taper?

Could he/she be confusing withdrawal symptoms with allergies?

 

I am considering this, but I don't know which dose to go up to. I have several 1.625 tablets left. I was thinking of just going back up to 2.5mgs, but I have been advised against this. The pdoc who is I spoke to is aware that I have been having a toxic reaction to zyprexa from the begining. She is not my current pdoc, but one who I have worked with in the past. She is of the opinion that zyprexa is a toxic drug full stop and that I have the worst metabolism for it (we did genetic testing that revealed I am an ultra rapid metaboliser at 1A2 - which she says makes Zyprexa go through me like a grain of salt).

 

I agree that feeling suicidal is a withdrawal symptom, but I also believe I am suffering from akathisia from the Zyprexa. I tend to feel suicidal when I am trying to sleep or lay down but feel like I can't switch off and that i want to jump out of my skin coupled with lots of pain. Also, I am very depressed and feeling hopeless because I don't know what to do.

 

When was the time you refer to here when you feel you were 'doing ok' ?

 

There was one week that I was tapering the zyprexa by 10% from 2.5mg using a compounded liquid. The liquid, for whatever reason, was making me extremely sick. After I took the 2.25mg using the liquid, I would shut down completely and experiencing severe head pains. I continued with it for a week, not knowing that the liquid was the problem. I ended up in ER at the end of the week because the physical pain on the left side of my body was very bad.

 

That night, I decided to go back to the tablets, so I reduced the zyprexa by 25% - 1.875. I did fairly ok, and later had the 1.875mg of zyprexa compounded in a capsule form. I stayed on this dose for 3 weeks, before dropping to 1.625. I felt much better after dropping to 1.625 and I was starting to do things and I was sleeping ok. I also (and this may have caused a problem) reduced the morning Epilim dose by 10%, just to reduce the sedation.

 

The week after the reduction to 1.625 is when I started experiencing problems. This was last Saturday. It started off with fatigue and depression and then later in the week when I would take the 1.625mg of zyprexa, I would experience severe head pains followed by severe depression. Interestingly, this was not happening in the previous week. Last Friday night, 2 nights ago, I took the 1.625mg zyprexa on the way to church and within 30mins of taking it, I collapsed at the back of the church holding my head because it was in severe pain and I was in tears.

 

It is because of this experience, that I decided to take less Zyprexa because I did not want to go through it again. This is why I started the 1.25mg zyprexa yesterday and I am definitely experiencing withdrawals.

 

The 'a week ago' you refer to was on or about the 11 Dec which is when (12 dec as per your sig) you dropped to 1.875.

And that was a 25 % drop so no wonder things got progressively worse. You say the ONLY reason you dropped further to 1.625 was the 'head pains and severe depression' but this is a typical manifestation of what happens when withdrawal is triggered. I can totally relate to this. Then for me came uncontrollable uncharacteristic crying spells  and suicidal thoughts.

 

The drop to 1.875 was a was on the 12th of November after I got sick from the liquid version where I was trying to taper by 10%.

 

I dropped from 1.875 to 1.625 because things were ok, and I had stayed on that dose for 3 weeks. At the time, I felt ready to.

 

The drop from 1.625 to 1.25 (which took place yesterday) is because of the severe head pains and depression that followed taking the 1.625 dose. Again, I don't understand why I started reacting this way to the 1.625, when initially I wasn't.

 

So as for now, I have two questions:

 

1. If I go back up, what dose should it be?

 

2. Should I cease the compounded vitamins that I have been taking?

 

Many thanks

Rico

[Shep]

 

I also think its far better to go back up in the dose of zyprexa than start taking valium if things have gotten that bad due to the too big drop in zyprexa.

 

 

 

 

NZ, thanks for stopping by a giving this some fresh eyes and your very thorough review. I agree that this could be withdrawal as opposed to an adverse reaction to Zyprexa; however, I just want to add a caution about benzos here. Adding Valium in regularly for more than 2 weeks can cause a dependency on benzos.

 

Also, Rico's current drug cocktail already involves 3 "brakes", which may already be causing a paradoxical reaction. Adding in a fourth brake would most likely make that worse, and, again, if taken more than a couple of weeks, could cause dependency. 

 

 

 

 

1. If I go back up, what dose should it be?

 

2. Should I cease the compounded vitamins that I have been taking?

 

 

 

Rico, 

 

If you do up the dose, I would not go higher than the last amount of 1.625 mg for two reasons:

 

1. increasing the dose higher will mean if it is an adverse reaction, it will make it worse 

 

2. you stated here that you were feeling better on 1.625 mg:

 

 

 

 

That night, I decided to go back to the tablets, so I reduced the zyprexa by 25% - 1.875. I did fairly ok, and later had the 1.875mg of zyprexa compounded in a capsule form. I stayed on this dose for 3 weeks, before dropping to 1.625. I felt much better after dropping to 1.625 and I was starting to do things and I was sleeping ok. I also (and this may have caused a problem) reduced the morning Epilim dose by 10%, just to reduce the sedation.

 

 

So it looks like the Epilim may have been what caused the instability. This is why JanCarol and I advised holding the Epilim steady until you are completely off Zyprexa. It's good you're taking such thorough notes. 

 

 

 

 

The week after the reduction to 1.625 is when I started experiencing problems. This was last Saturday. It started off with fatigue and depression and then later in the week when I would take the 1.625mg of zyprexa, I would experience severe head pains followed by severe depression. Interestingly, this was not happening in the previous week.

 

 

This speaks to the Epilim causing enough destabilization that you may be more sensitive, including sensitivity to your current drugs and even to supplements. 

 

I would stop taking the vitamins and stick to fish oil and magnesium at this point. You may want to drop the night time vitamins first and keep taking the morning vitamins for a few days, and then drop that, too. That way it will be more gradual. I would drop the night time dose first because it has some vitamins that may be affecting your sleep, so that's best to have in the morning. Please do not stop them and do any other changes with your drugs, though. If you do decide to increase the Zyprexa, I would wait to change the vitamins so you'll know what to attribute any changes in symptoms to. 

 

You may even be more sensitive to other things such as light, sound, and stress. So you may want to limit your outside activities until you are feeling better. I am limited to work and going to the grocery store right now. Anything else and I will throw myself into a bad wave. I am acutely sensitive to light and sound now and it causes my CNS to hyper-react. 

 

 

 

 

 

It is because of this experience, that I decided to take less Zyprexa because I did not want to go through it again. This is why I started the 1.25mg zyprexa yesterday and I am definitely experiencing withdrawals.

 

 

This is key here, Rico. When you say you experienced "withdrawals", has your time on 1.25 mg been better or worse than when you were on 1.625 mg? 

 

In other words, do you still feel you are having an adverse reaction to Zyprexa or did the decrease help with the head symptoms and suicidal thoughts? 

[Rico]

Hi Shep,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

My first night on the 1.25 wasn't any better than the 1.625. I didn't get the same head pains and severe depression but I didn't get much sleep either and resorted to Valium.

 

Tonight, before taking the zyprexa, I was actually quite calm and sleepy (I think the vitamins helped with that to be honest). I was lying on the couch and on the phone with my girlfriend. We were discussing whether I should updose or stay on 1.25.

 

We agreed that I would continue on 1.25.

 

After taking the 1.25mg of zyprexa, I had a shower and then went to bed. By the time I lay down in bed, my right leg was shaking uncontrollably and I was feeling very restless and agitated. I didn't have the severe head pains followed by depression, but I have pain in the left side of my face near my jaw and ear.

 

None of this was happening prior to taking the zyprexa 1.25.

 

I am not as sedated as I was in on the 1.625, but I am very agitated and restless. I also feel like I have lost touch with my body - I feel very dead and artificial. I believe that zyprexa is causing this akathisia. It is horrible.

 

I really want to go to sleep but this akathisia is making it difficult. I miss the days when I would just lie down in bed and sleep peacefully.

 

Also, right after taking the zyprexa and the onset of this restlessness and akathisia, I have a lot of suicidal thoughts. I cannot see a light at the end of this tunnel.

 

All my issues with zyprexa have occurs during AFTER taking it, and they have occurred at pretty much all the different doses I have had.

 

I'll see how I go tonight, but I am scared that I won't be able to sleep. I don't handle insomnia too well, and I am already exhausted from the last few days.

 

Thank you all for your replies. I would hate to think what would have happened if I didn't not have this support.

 

A part of me wants to run to the doctor and hope for a solution. I really hope I don't do this.

[Shep]

My first night on the 1.25 wasn't any better than the 1.625. I didn't get the same head pains and severe depression but I didn't get much sleep either and resorted to Valium. 

 

 

 

 

If given the choice of going back up to 1.625 mg Zyprexa or using Valium to navigate the withdrawal from the decrease to 1.25 mg, I would go back up to 1.625 mg Zyprexa and not take the Valium.  You are playing with fire by adding in a benzo.

 

I've seen more people start to decompensate from drug cocktails that contain benzos than from drug cocktails that don't contain benzos. Please be very, very careful.

 

I also feel like I have lost touch with my body - I feel very dead and artificial. 

 

 

This may be the Valium. This is from the benzo.org site listing benzo symptoms, including:

 

 "Arms and legs feel detached from the body"

 

Benzodiazepine Withdrawal Symptoms

 

 

We agreed that I would continue on 1.25. 

 

 

How are you planning to manage your symptoms? Again, the reliance on benzos is very concerning. 

 

This is how I managed when in acute withdrawal:

 

1. Make a list of what you will do if you can't sleep. I still have my list of movies and NetFlix shows that I want to watch, but I save them for insomnia nights.

 

2. Decide what you will and will not take and do not alter from this course. I would advise not taking any more benzos. I used melatonin until it went paradoxical and the only OTC drug I will use is a baby aspirin. Because my CNS is so destabilized, I actually get results from a baby aspirin. 

 

3. What can you do for headaches? Does a warm or cold washcloth on the head help? A calming bath? Gentle music? What about guided meditations for overthinking and for pain? Have your playlist ready for when you need it.

 

4. Find ways of handling akathisia. This is one of the hardest symptoms to deal with, but many people find walking meditation to be helpful. I used it all the time, even if it was late at night and I was pacing around my apartment.

 

What is walking meditation? 

 

 

All my issues with zyprexa have occurs during AFTER taking it, and they have occurred at pretty much all the different doses I have had. 

 

 

You are making progress toward getting off the Zyprexa, but it's coming at a major cost to your mind and body. Please don't get off Zyprexa only to have a benzo withdrawal problem. 

 

Cognitive decline is a huge problem for people drugged for labels like schizophrenia and bipolar type 1, and one consistent factor I'm finding is having a benzo in the drug cocktail. The memory problems with benzo withdrawal can be severe and profound, lasting for several years after you get off the drug. That was my experience, along with many other people I knew when I was active on a benzo withdrawal website. 

 

Okay, I'll get off my benzo soapbox now.  But please do be careful. 

 

[Bokart]

Hi Rico, sorry what you've going trough right now. I am tapering Zyprexa too, so we're fighting the same battle, except you are in a harder phase right now (in my opinion) due to lower dosage you are on. I got an image for you:

 

¨

 

This image shows (or the projection of the graph shows) how deep the Serotonin receptor occupancy is declining in your current doses. It's really a steep decline... nowhere near the decline I'm at with my 3,6 mg (almost negligible at my dose). So no wonder you get depression... your receptors are freed from the stranglehold, and they probably aren't functioning probably after the olanzapine's 5HT2A (serotonin receptor complex 2A) inverse agonism. Inverse agonism means it depresses the activity of those receptors. They are now going back to full activity, slowly.

 

At your doses the histamine occupancy will also probably drop (don't have a graph for that), so that amounts to insomnia.

 

I'm going to be extra careful in my taper in those doses, and will advice you to be too. I too -at times- saw a no way out of my situation, but after a staying at 7,5 mg six months, I was stable enough to continue my taper and have had great success so far. I don't have the same sleeping difficulties like a year ago, and have not resorted in using a benzodiazepine since last spring. Hopefully you will stabilize too, but it might not happen in a week... maybe not even in a month. Or more. Time is the best healer, really.

Hoping you well and good success to your taper,

Bokart

[Rico]

I slept 5 hours last night on the 1.25 and I didn't use any Valium. I have woken up now feeling very depressed with pain in the left side of my head. I feel like my brain is severely damaged from this zyprexa.

 

I am severely depressed and and in pain.

 

I really want you to understand that I have been sick from zyprexa since the first dose of 10mg back in August.

 

When I was given the first dose of 10mg back in August, I had a severe adverse reaction: I became very depressed, I couldnt talk, couldn't sleep, became very dehydrated and I was so depressed to the point of writing out a suicide note.

 

In the past, when I have taken zyprexa, I never had this reaction. I would just feel sedated and get lots of sleep.

 

The zyprexa was reduced by the doctor in hospital to 5mg and then outside of hospital to 2.5mg. This was when I joined this site seeking help to taper from it.

 

I have been sick non-stop from this drug and all the problems happen after I take it.

 

Before taking the 1.25 last night, I was feeling pretty calm and actually yawning. As soon as I took the 1.25, I became agitated, my right leg started shaking uncontrollably and I was extremely reslsss.

 

In the 4 days last week that I was taking the 1.625 and having problems, the adverse reaction was diffeeenr - severe head pain in my frontal lobe followed by severe depression.

 

I am now feeling very hopeless and severely depressed.

 

What can I do now?

[Shep]

What can I do now?

 

 

You just made a drug reduction, so now you wait until your CNS can catch up and settle a bit. The waiting is one of the hardest parts. Distraction is going to be key, Rico. Learning to engage in other activities, even if it's mindlessly watching gentle comedies on tv or listening to calming music and staring into space and letting your body relax until your mind can let go. 

 

You really need to learn this because you still have two more tapers ahead of you and you're fighting the process. There's a lot to be said for acceptance.

 

Mindfulness and Acceptance

 

Good links for anxiety/worry

 

There are others listed in this link:

 

Non-drug techniques

 

 

Please consider the below suggestions:

 

 

 

 

This is how I managed when in acute withdrawal:

 

1. Make a list of what you will do if you can't sleep. I still have my list of movies and NetFlix shows that I want to watch, but I save them for insomnia nights.

 

2. Decide what you will and will not take and do not alter from this course. I would advise not taking any more benzos. I used melatonin until it went paradoxical and the only OTC drug I will use is a baby aspirin. Because my CNS is so destabilized, I actually get results from a baby aspirin. 

 

3. What can you do for headaches? Does a warm or cold washcloth on the head help? A calming bath? Gentle music? What about guided meditations for overthinking and for pain? Have your playlist ready for when you need it.

 

4. Find ways of handling akathisia. This is one of the hardest symptoms to deal with, but many people find walking meditation to be helpful. I used it all the time, even if it was late at night and I was pacing around my apartment.

 

What is walking meditation?