Rico: Zyprexa tapering

[JanCarol]

Hey Rico - 

The reason I changed the dose of zyprexa from 1.625 to 1.25 is because I started having adverse reactions to the 1.625 - severe head pain followed by depresssion. I

 

I really believe that these are Delayed Onset of Withdrawal Symptoms from your massive changes in Zyprexa.

 

You need to slow down, or you will get caught.

 

4 hours sleep - hey, there are people here who would love to get 4 hours of sleep.

 

I have been sick non-stop from this drug and all the problems happen after I take it. 

 

Honestly, Rico - nobody I know or have talked to here on SA actually likes these drugs.  They are not "feel good" drugs by any definition.  

 

It is why a neuroleptic taper is so difficult, because there is no time when you feel good on them.

 

Please do not flirt with a benzo addiction.  That would make your neuroleptic experience, and your insomnia seem like child's play.  Benzo insomnia is the worst, and your intermittent benzo use may be contributing to your insomnia.  If this is the case you may have some time - a few days, a week, a month, where your sleep is not regular.  But it will be worth it to go through that time, to get off and stay off the benzos.

 

What can I do now? 

 

You do not change your doses any more.  You wait for the changes you have made to take effect.    That can be anywhere from 2-6 weeks.

 

In that 2-6 weeks, you use the non-drug techniques that Shep has patiently shown you.  You re-read your thread and read all the links that moderators have posted for you.  You learn, you find ways to live with the pain, you find ways to work through the pain, you distract yourself from the pain, and you wait some more.

 

The drugs are not going to fix a drug problem.  Keep your drugs the same, don't change anything.  4-6 weeks.  

 

Please be patient and kind to yourself.  Please, if you are feeling suicidal, seek local help.  Please call Lifeline or Beyond Blue (you can be anonymous there if you choose).  Call a friend, or a family member.  Talk to someone, connect with someone - it is important to talk this out.  But please remember to choose talk and behaviours that do not get you "caught."  Getting caught will mean hospitals, more drugs, and a longer journey out of your suffering.

 

Help for those who are feeling desperate or suicidal.

[Rico]

Thanks Jan.

 

The head pains I was getting on 1.625 occurred directly after taking the dose.

 

After taking the 1.25 yesterday, I woke up after 5 hours sleep, and then went back to sleep for another 4 hours using meditation music.

 

I then woke up, and my anxiety was off the roof. I am still anxious now, and it's the afternoon. I have been contemplating going to a private hospital because I feel like I am not coping. My mind is racing and I feel overwhelmed by the smallest thought. For example, seeing a motorbike made me feel really anxious because I recently had my motorbike repossessed due to not being able to make the repayments.

 

I am very anxious and my mind sometimes feels like it is spinning out of control. This mental anxiety is enourmous.

 

I have only used valium twice in the last two months. I don't like using it because the rebound anxiety is pretty bad.

 

So, are you saying to stick it out on the 1.25 until I stabilise? You don't recommend that I updose at this stage?

 

Thank you so much for your reply and all your support.

[Rico]

Hi Shep, thank you for the links.

 

Also, thank you to everyone else who has been helping me. I am very grateful.

 

Its midnight now and I haven't been able to sleep.

 

At around 8pm I was quite settled. After taking the 1.25mg zyprexa though, I experienced a lot of anxiety, agitation and akasthisia. My right left started shaking uncontrollably and I felt an electrical current running down my left arm (this only last a short while).

 

It seems like every time I try to close my eyes to sleep, all hell breaks loose. My biggest fear is that I will be disabled and be like this forever. I know this is an irrational fear but this is where my thinking takes me.

 

I was tempted tonight to updose to 2.5mg because I was feeling so desperate, but I don't want to deviate from the advice I have been given here.

 

I am going to be extremely careful from now on.

 

I am mentally exhausted, but I am finding it hard to sleep. I feel like my body doesn't know how to relax anymore. Actually, this has been the case for a long time since relying on drugs just to knock me out. In previous times when I have been on zyprexa (when actually used to work well), I used to look forward to taking it because it would knock me out and I wouldn't have to worry about my problems.

 

Now that I am on less zyprexa, all my worries, fears and thoughts are before me and i am yet to learn to deal with them. In fact, this is the reason I became drugged up in the first place 20 years ago.

 

I will now try to go back to bed and listen to the guided meditation.

 

I must say though, that the akasthisia that I experience after taking the zyprexa is severe.

 

I am trying my best and I have not been doing things perfectly, but I am going to try harder. Unfortunately, I am a stubborn and impatient person and I want to work on changing that too. I have screwed myself up too many times because of this character trait.

 

I am seeing a new psychiatrist this Thursday who is more interested in doing psychotherapy with me than using medications. I have already discussed with her my tapering and desire to get off medications, and she is absolutely respectful of it. One of the key areas we will be working on is my anxiety.

 

I have had issues with anxiety since I was a child. I remember a time when my parents told me that i would die if I swallowed chewing gum. Well, one day I did swallow chewing gum while my parents weren't home. We were living in an apartment block at the time, and I remember asking everyone if I was going to die from the swallowing the chewing gum. Anyway, just wanted to share with you a bit about myself. Anxiety is a huge problem for me in this tapering process, because as soon as I don't feel well, I freak out. And when I freak out a lot, I tend to want to run to the hospital.

 

I have this fantasy, that I will go to a private hospital and there will be gentle and caring people who will understand my issues with drugs and a psychiatrist that will have a solution for me that won't involve more drugs - and then I will walk out after a few weeks without the zyprexa and sleeping like a baby.

 

I have now come to learn (the hard way), that this is going to be a long journey. I am now willing to accept this. I have lots to learn from you guys and I will be spending a lot more time now learning from you. I am so impressed with the knowledge and insight that some of the SA members have, and I know that it has come through lots of pain from personal experience.

 

Thank you to everyone here for your support and sharing of your experiences.

 

I am going to try and sleep now with some guided medication. I will update you tomorrow!!

[Rico]

Hi, I need help please.

 

I slept from 12am to 8am and have woken up very agitated and there is an intense pressure in the front of my head between my temples.

 

This zyprexa is killing me

[Rico]

I am really going through hell right now. I am extremely tired and when I try to lay down to rest, I can't switch off. My brain feels warm from all the anxiety and I feel like am losing the plot.

 

I spoke to a competent psychiatrist this morning who understands what I am going through, and she said that the zyprexa is causing akasthisa. She has suggest that I try not taking it all.

 

I am extremely confused. I really want to run to a hospital right now.

 

Has anyone experienced this before where you are so tired but still cannot switch off to rest? Is this insomnia? Is this akasthisa? Is this what common psychiatrist call "mind racing" as part of bipolar disorder? Or is this just withdrawal? Is my CNS completely damaged? Will I be disabled for life?

 

Should I reinstate tonight and go back up to 2.5? I am scared of up-dosing in case I get more severe adverse reactions.

 

I am at my wits end right now and really need some guidance.

[Rico]

Hi everyone, here is my update for today:

 

After taking the 1.25mg last night, I started feeling resltess, agitated, and going out of my mind. This settled and I eventually went to sleep.

 

I woke up at 8:00am (8 hours "sleep") with anxiety/akasthisa off the planet. It was absolutely dreadful.

 

I considered going to hospital. I spoke to two doctors who said there's nothing I could do and that this is zyprexa withdrawal.

 

Every time I lay on the couch to try and get some rest, I just couldnt. I would jump up again feeling very anxious and agitated. I could not relax at all and the pressure in my head from all the stress was building.

 

I went for a walk which helped, but came home very anxious again. Most of my anxiety is "what do I do? what do I do?". The anxiety was off the chart and my mind would not stop racing.

 

Out of desperation, and I acknowledge now that this was a mistake, I spoke to my old doctor. I was so anxious that I just wanted to speak to anyone. And again, I have for a long time sought comfort from "professional advice". In times of desperation, I just want someone to tell me what to do. I need to change this, but it's easy to say this now compared to how I was earlier.

 

I explained to him what was happening and the reactions I get after taking the zyprexa. We have a fundamental disagreement regarding whether this is withdrawal or original symptoms. I am 100% sure it is withdrawal, thanks to my experience here on the forum. He seemed very empathetic for a change, when I told him what the zyprexa was doing to me. His suggestion was to stop taking the zyprexa and increase the epilim and lithium by one tablet, and take 5mg valium to help with the sleep for a few days and this will help with "a softer landing"

 

I became more stressed after talking to him, because a part of me wanted to believe that this would work and another part was petrified that going CT will cause me to be really sick.

 

So late tonight, after pondering what to do - I thought - "what the heck, what's there to lose" and followed his advice. I actually felt a lot calmer after taking the additional tablets (I am sure it was the valium, and came downstairs and played some computer games).

 

I also thought, "why not take some melatonin too"....so I took 2mg of melatonin.

 

I felt tired and went upstairs to go to sleep, but I couldn't even concentrate on the meditation I normally listen to. I am just way to destabilised right now. I couldn't sit still in bed and of course, my underlying fear was "I can't just go CT on zyprexa, that's crazy".

 

So....I re-read through the posts on here and decided to take 1.625. I will hold on this dose until I get stable. I don't know what I will do if I can't stabilise though...I'll worry about that then.

 

So, as you can see, I have been all over the shop today. The good news is that I haven't ended up in hospital. I am learning the hard way, and I am beating myself up constantly - about everything really.

 

Its midnight now and I am going to go to keep myself busy for a while and then go to sleep.

 

I am not looking forward to tomorrow morning at all.

 

My body is so tense and stressed and I can especially feel it in my brain. It is under a lot of stress right now. I fantasize about the days when I used to be able to lie in bed tired and just sleep.

 

Will normal sleep every happen again? The restorative one where you actually feel yourself again.

 

Either way, I am determined to be a success story one day. This is the most difficult thing I have ever done.

[AliG]

Rico. Well done you !  I'm so proud of you . I know you never answer my posts but I don't care. You did good. Not going to hospital is huge . You would have been drugged.

 

Will normal sleep happen again - yes !  Stick to the program and it will.

 

You will be a success !     Yes - it's character - building .   

[scallywag]

Rico

 

When the anxiety hits, it can be helpful to have calming and soothing tactics at the ready. Please think about what you can have "at your fingertips" for those moments. Some ideas: a written/printed list of tactics that work, a guided meditation recording on your phone/computer ready to go.

 

This topic provides an explanation for what may be happening:

Waking with anxiety - cortisol surges.

[Rico]

Oh AliG, I am so sorry. I will make sure to answer every post from now on. Lots of hugs from me!

 

Thank you so much for replying to me. Your support and others means so much to me. It has been my dream for 20 years to be drug-free, and I have finally found a place that makes sense. All my hospitalisations after my initial one were due to drug withdrawals and adverse drug reactions. I had no idea at the time and I accepted my withdrawal symptoms as an illness which I had. In my heart, I knew this was not true but didn't know any other way to get off drugs.

 

I am so grateful for your support, thank you. ????

[Rico]

Thanks Scallywag,

 

The anxiety today was a bit different that normal anxiety. The best way to explain it is that it felt like agitation/anxiety and severe akathisia all happening at he same time combined with intense stress in my brain. I literally could not even lay on the couch long enough to listen to music today. As soon as I would close my eyes, a thought would trigger me into jumping up and panicking - even the tiniest issue.

 

In the past, I used to be aware of what the thoughts were and self-soothe. Today, I wasn't even aware most of the time what the thought was. At one stage, I feared like I was losing my mind completely so I burst out of the house and just walked.

 

It's hard to accept how much I have mentally deteriorated, but being apart of this forum has given me so much hope.

 

Thank you so much for your reply.

[AliG]

We are here for you Rico and I hope you see an improvement in symptoms very soon. Hang in there.

[nz11]

Morning Rico i join with ALiG in saying im real glad  you didnt end up in hospital too. I was worried about that.

In acute wdl i had that overwhelming desire to talk to others too and would phone people.

 

It could be helpful to have an understanding non judgemental family member or friend to phone rather than the med profession when you hit the panic button because they will only have one answer.

 

Are you able to update your drug sig.

Are you able to do this without adding valium.

[Rico]

Hi Nz11,

 

I've update my signature, and I don't plan to use valium again or go to hospital.

 

I slept for about 8 hours last night after taking the 1.625, but woke up with severe burning pain in my head and depression.

 

Today though, is much better than how I woke up yesterday after the 1.25 dose.

 

I feel quite out of it and weak but I am going to do things today to distract myself and also try and go for a walk.

 

I get upset when I think about how I was doing well before and functioning and I start fearing that I have mentally deteriorated and will be disabled for life.

 

Anyway what's happened has happened and I can only move forward.

 

Here are the things I am going to do to try and hep myself:

 

1. Stick to my medication regime strictly and NOT taper any lower until I am MORE than just stabilised.

2. Stick to the 10% taper of current dose

3. Not taper any other medication in the process

4. Spend more time on the non-drug coping techniques

5. Reduce/Eliminate smoking

6. Go for gentle walk

7. Attend the 12 Step Program for Mental Health (GROW)

8. See my psychotherapist regularly (who is a psychiatrist)

9. See my psychologist regularly

10. NOT contact my old doctor again out of desperation!

 

As for talking to people when I am panicking, my wonderful girlfriend has been by my side for the last 3.5 years an she has seen the effects the drugs have had on me. I honestly would not be alive today if it wasn't for her support.

 

Thank you for all your support.

 

Rico

[Bokart]

Remember that stopping/reducing smoking raises the olanzapine levels in your body, so I would be careful with that. Google "smoking and olanzapine" for more info.

 

Also don't eat grapefruit / drink grapefruit juice. Seemed it stopped olanzapine from leaving my body, caused me to fall asleep as soon as I closed my eyes (it was when I started olanzapine in the care unit, even the nurses didn't warn me against eating grapefruits, then discovered it back home)...

[Rico]

Thanks Bokart, I will make sure to avoid grapefruit juice. I'm not going to make any changes to the cigarettes at the moment.

 

The one thing I am still confused about is the compounded vitamins. I started taking them in late November and I do recall feeling better on them. I think my recent destabilisation was more due to the zyprexa / Epilim reduction. I might just leave them for now and stick to Magnesium and Fish Oil. The fish oil I have at the moment is not as strong as the one suggested in this forum. I am really tired now so I will look into it tomorrow.

 

I am experiencing at the moment a fair bit of akathisia, it's just hard to wind down. My CNS feels very fragile and traumatised. I sometimes wonder if recovery is possible for me, which makes me anxious.

[Rico]

Today and thought on Zyprexa

 

I woke up today with quite severe pain and depression and the usual anxiety. It was nothing like the day before though where the anxiety, pain, akathisia and everything really, seemed out of control.

 

I decided to push myself to do something rather than sit at home and analyse my situation - which is something that I often do and need to change.

 

Although I was feeling very weak, fragile and anxious, I caught the train into the city and met up with my girlfriend. I also went to the compounding pharmacy to order more tablets of 1.625 zyprexa because it looks like I am going to be on that dose for a while now.

 

There were many moments where I wanted to just sit down and breakdown. I wasn't mentally coping with anything, and most of the time I didn't know what my thoughts were. I wish I could describe how I felt, but I can't. I started searching "symptoms of brain damage" on google - see how silly I can get?

 

I sat in the courtyard of a church (I am a practicing Catholic) and just prayed. That was hard too. It was hard to focus on my prayer without the intrusive anxious thoughts. A lot of the anxiety is to do with getting off medication, especially Zyprexa. For 20 years my pdoc had drummed into my head that I will need medication for life, and his approach has always been fear based with regards to any medication. On top of this, I have been in and out of hospital many times over the last few years and i have been extremely traumatised from my experience there. I also have done too many CT's that have landed me in a lot of trouble.

 

I attended the church service and bumped into a friend there who suffers from chronic nerve pain. Talking to him really helped.

 

On the journey home on the train, I tried to practice some relaxation techniques. My phone battery was dead, so I just tried to feel the vibrations of the train, my body, breathing. I had no idea what I was doing, because learning to relax is not something I have done before. I have always just popped pills and ran back to the doctor and lived my life completely unaware of what my body was doing.

 

This bring me to my thoughts on Zyprexa - my arch nemesis! I have been on this drug on/off since 1999. The periods in my life where I actually functioned and felt ok, was when I wasn't on it.

 

The problem with zyprexa is not the sedation, the weight gain or even the head fog. It is the fact that it numbs the emotions and strips away your capacity to process and feel emotions. My pdoc used to say "zyprexa will protect you from stress". It is true, you don't feel stress. The problem is, the emotions that you were meant to feel still get stored in your body. Zyprexa doesn't block the emotions, it simply stops you from feeling them and reacting to them. A couple of years ago, when the doctor removed zyprexa abruptly, a whole bunch of emotions came up all at once. The backlog of emotions was so huge, that I hopped on my motorbike with the intent of killing myself. I was crying and screaming in my helmet overwhelmed with all the traumatic memories.

 

I believe this is why zyprexa is difficult to withdraw from. Sure, there are the phsyical withdrawals as a result of neurotransmitter occupancy etc...but in my experience it is being able to feel again which is the hardest. I have withdrawn from other antipsychotics in the past with no issues at all (and I have been on pretty much all of them now).

 

And feeling again, is difficult for me. So much has happened this year. I lost my job, went to hospital about 5 times, filing for bankruptcy, physical side effects that really upset me and so on.

 

My ability to cope with life was what landed me in hospital in the first place back in 1997. Unfortunately, overuse of antipsychotics prevented me from learning how to cope. My legs are so skinny and frail from being in this mental wheelchair.

 

The non-drug coping techniques and the support from this forum are like physiotherapy as one takes small steps on muscles and bones that have not being used. The gradual tapering allows the bones and muscles to build enough strength to get to the next point in their journey. Such "mental physiotherapy" does not really exist in today's psychiatry. Often, the wheelchair is stripped away from underneath patient or replaced with another wheelchair. In my case, it has gotten to the point where I was just given a chair with unsteady legs.

 

I have been looking at old photos in my laptop and I am filled with sadness. There were so many things I was able to do in the past - like high profile jobs, race motorbikes and play the piano. Right now, in my fragile and anxious/depressed state, I feel like I'll never be able to do those things again. My memory is shocking, concentration non-existent, and there is a lingering pain in my head which I hope is just stress/anxiety related and will go away one day.

 

It's hard to believe that I can recover, but I am going to try. I am still very scared. Feeling this way is new to me. Maybe feeling for a change is new too.

 

Please let me know if I have written too much or if it is inappropriate to blog on this forum.

[Shep]

 

 

The non-drug coping techniques and the support from this forum are like physiotherapy as one takes small steps on muscles and bones that have not being used. The gradual tapering allows the bones and muscles to build enough strength to get to the next point in their journey. Such "mental physiotherapy" does not really exist in today's psychiatry. Often, the wheelchair is stripped away from underneath patient or replaced with another wheelchair. In my case, it has gotten to the point where I was just given a chair with unsteady legs.

 

I like this very much, Rico. Yes, the non-drug coping techniques are like physiotherapy. And each technique will make you stronger. And the gradual tapering will give you some breathing space in between cuts. 

 

Sounds like you've got a bit of an "inner journey" vibe going on with some memories. And I like your new avatar, a light to guide you through the darkness. 

 

Treat yourself kindly and don't stay too long in those memory rooms. Know when to go outside for air or change the channel and focus on something else so you don't fall into despair. Remember, where you're at now is not where you'll be when you heal. It does get a lot better. 

[Rico]

Thanks Shep, I really needed to hear this today. I am struggling with severe depression at the moment. What makes it hard is waking up depressed and then taking the Epilim/lithium in the morning which adds to the depression. I think though the depression is more a result of the recent changes with zyprexa . My thoughts are quite negative too and I am a bit anxious.

 

Some of my thoughts are:

"No one can help me"

"I am destined to be a vegetable"

"I'll never be able to do this or that again"

"Maybe I do need drugs for the rest of my life"

"My nervous system is beyond repair now"

"I have wrecked my life"

 

I am not sure what comes first, the bad feeling as a result of withdrawal or the thoughts. Maybe it's a bit of both.

 

How have others coped with depression during withdrawal?

[Rico]

Hi,

 

Just wanted to ask, is feeling stressed part of the withdrawal process?

 

I have woke up depressed, then later I was anxious, then akathisia, and now I am just stressed....the smallest thing causes me to stress, especially my thoughts.

 

Is this common? I am so scared that I will not be able to come off this zyprexa durg...

 

Thanks

Rico

[nz11]

Rico stress and depression are typical withdrawal symptoms.

 

When this 'once -off' wears off it may well be back to wdl as usual and rough for some time yet.

You will need to hunker down and hold onto the above  10 things you have listed.

Personally i think 8 and 9 are a bit of a double up. Why not scratch 8 and run with 9, 9 sounds a lot safer than 8. Anyways its up to you, you could save a lot of money if you have to pay for them.

 

Also number 2 could well be too fast. What do you think about 5%.

 

Lastly why not  throw away the secret supply of valium then that is no longer an option.

A fascinating psychology study has shown that  people do better when they cut down their options.

 

All the best.

[Rico]

Hi Nz11,

 

Thanks for you reply.

 

I am in quite a desperate situation at the moment.

 

My mind is going 100 million miles an hour.

 

I woke up pretty depressed as usual and anxious and I was fairly mentally dysfunctional most of the day.

 

By the afternoon, I was tired, stressed and a little anxious.

 

I lied down on the couch and tried to nap. I used breathing techniques and just tried to relax.

 

Two hours later I woke up (it wasn't a deep sleep) with SEVERE mental anxiety or akathisia or I am no sure.

 

I feel like I am going out of my mind and the mental anxiety is unbearable. I feel like running to hospital. I just can't relax at all.

 

My girlfriend tried deep breathing exercise with me over the phone, but I just couldn't do it, my mind was on fire with anxiety.

 

I wish I could turn back the clock to a couple of weeks ago when I was not having this mental torture.

 

I tried lying down again and I can't even close my eyes to get any relief.

 

I really look forward to a response from anyone really as to what I should do. I am very distressed right now.

 

Thank you so much,

Rico

[scallywag]

Rico, I'm sorry to read that you are having these periods of intense anxiety and rushing thoughts.  The more you practice breathing techniques and distraction or focus, the more likely your CNS (central nervous system) is to respond. 

 

Going for medical assistance at a hospital has potential benefits and risks. Doctors will adjust your medication -- either increase doses or add/change medications, maybe both. Those changes may provide relief from your symptoms and alternatively, they may not.

 

I wish I knew exactly what would work to ease and eliminate your anxiety and other symptoms.

[Bokart]

Your symptoms might be due to your 25% drop in November, it's a really large drop, and I've read many accounts of people having more severe withdrawal reactions when they reached below 2,5 mg of olanzapine in their tapering (of course they're only anecdotes [we're all different], but it still might hold some truth to it).

Also your recent drop to 1,25 mg might affect you still. Your CNS might still be unstable after all these changes.

 

Maybe some more experienced mod(s) have better advice, but I might, if I were you, consider reinstating 2,5 mg. I thinks better than hospital, either way. Or you could just wait for the symptoms to settle, maybe in a month they will be gone (no promises though). Can you wait that long or are the symtoms too unbearable?

 

How were your symptoms when you were at 2,5 mg? Was it better than now?

Hoping your symptoms ease and wishing you all best,
Bokart

[Rico]

Hi Bokart and others,

 

My symptoms are becoming unbearable.

 

The night after writing my last post, I managed to fall asleep but I was quite anxious. I woke up after 7 hours but I would say only a fraction of that time was real sleep as I do recall having a dream.

 

I woke up quite unstable and after taking the morning dose of Epilim and Lifhiim became quite depressed. I lay down on the couch and had some rest, but couldn't switch off. My mind was fairly anxious and quite confused.

 

The rest of the day was quite unstable Alger sting between depression, anxiety and feeling stressed.

 

I also became quite depressed after taking the afternoon Epilim / Lithium.

 

I got some relief after taking the zyprexa 1.625, but before going to bed I felt a lot of physical symptoms like my feeling my heart beat all over my neck and head and just not feeling well. I just lay there and eventually passsd out.

 

I've now woken up after being in bed for 6 hours - I can't call it sleep and I am not feeling well at all. I've tried going back to bed to sleep but my brain just won't switch off.

 

I am not feeling out of control or desperately anxious, I am just exhausted from the lack of sleep.

 

I don't mind reinstating to 2.5mg of zyprexa but i fear that it will make me worse. I don't know what other options I have though. I can't check in to a hospital at the moment because of the Christmas period - and there's no way I am going to a public hospital.

 

This whole week has been a blurr. I just wish I could lie down and have a normal sleep. I am really tired and not looking forward to taking the Epilim / Lithium in a few hours - I tend to get worse.

 

Thanks

Rico

[Rico]

Hi,

 

I hope someone responds soon please.

 

I woke up with severe mind racing. After taking the Epilim and Lithium morning dose I slowed down and lay on the couch for a while, but couldn't fully switch off.

 

I came home from my girlfriend's place pretty depressed. I was home alone and was reading through the forum and the anxiety and mind racing got so much that I had no choice but to lay on the couch and just close my eyes and pray. I didn't want to pop a valium.

 

My mind was on fire, and it slowly passed. Right now I feel very fragile, weak, and very low stress tolerance. I don't what to do anymore. I feel like my CNS has completely collapsed.

 

Should I reinstate to 2.5mg tonight? I am scared of doing this too in case I get worse, but it looks like I don't have a choice.

 

Is it unrealistic of me to think that I can be off meds?

 

I am not in a good place right now and I feel like all I need is just one good restorative sleep - you know the feeling?

 

Thanks,

Rico

[nz11]

Rico you say,

"I came home from my girlfriend's place pretty depressed.

I was home alone and was reading through the forum and the anxiety and mind racing got so much that I had no choice but to lay on the couch and just close my eyes and pray.

I didn't want to pop a valium....

My mind was on fire, and it slowly passed.

Right now I feel very fragile, weak, and very low stress tolerance. I don't what to do anymore. I feel like my CNS has completely collapsed."

 

I refer to the bold parts because this is how it is in withdrawal. For me this is what it was like for nearly two years. This is exactly how you do it to survive. Like you i would lay down to rest also and like you it would slowly pass.

You are doing it...good for you,... you are surviving....and you do it one day at a time.

 

What do you think of the idea of putting all the valium in a bag and dump it in the rubbish? (Where is this valium you refer to coming from? )

Make no mistake about it if you run to the hospital they will have no problem with doubling the dose across the board. They may even increase stuff multiple fold....even 10 fold....or add even more drugs.

 

I wouldn't be panicking because you only have 6 hrs sleep goodness me that's more than what most of us are getting.

 

Is it unrealistic of me to think that I can be off meds?

You can get off meds but you have to do it the right way and not by 50% cuts per month. The outcome is predictable.

 

Does 8. and 9. above who you say you see regularly know anything about psychotropic drug withdrawal ?

Hang in there.

[Rico]

Thanks Nz11 for your reply.

 

The valium supply was from a previous hospitalisation. I haven't used any today.

 

I wouldn't say i "slept"...after taking the 1.625 zyprexa I just lay in bed quite uncomfortable until I passed out. I was just sedated with whatever zyprexa was doing.

 

I don't feel like I have slept at all and the mind racing/anxiety was very intense.

 

Right now, I am barely functioning and my concentration is poor and my the anxiety is quite bad. When I lie down, my mind is going nuts. I am really pushing myself just to write.

 

I am not coping at all with this withdrawal. If I continue like this I am going to deteriorate and end up in an ambulance.

 

I am planning to reinstate to 2.5, and revisit tapering once I am fully stabilised - what do you think?

 

Thanks,

Rico

[nz11]

I am planning to reinstate to 2.5, and revisit tapering once I am fully stabilised - what do you think?

Clearly then, you are unable and/or unwilling to hold at this current level.

I am of the same opinion as Bokart if it comes down to a choice between a trip in an ambulance or go back to 2.5 then imo going back to 2.5 is a preferable option and worth a shot.

 

 

Whats your intention with the secret stash of valium?

[Rico]

Hi Nz11,

 

I have no intention of using anymore valium. I don't like the rebound anxiety that it causes.

 

I am feeling very dysfunctional right now and feel like everything is falling apart - my memory, concentration, I am anxious, depressed, the works.

 

I am scared of going back up to 2.5 and getting worse or not stabilising. I read through my previous posts, and I wasn't doing too well on 2.5. I am craving some proper sleep.

 

The problem with zyprexa is that regardless of dose, it just causes me to pass out...I don't know...there was a period of time on the 1.875 dose that I was starting to sleep a bit better.

 

I am quite overwhelmed and depressed by all this too. I wish my mind would just switch off. The biggest anxiety is really "what do I do?".

 

I feel helpless.

 

I just took my afternoon Epilim/Lithium, and as usual, that gets me more depressed.

 

Is recovery still possible for me, or have all these failed tapers caused irreversible damage to my brain?

 

Thank you kindly for you support.

[nz11]

I'm sorry you are in this most difficult position.

With such a long history of drug use and polydrugging your situation is complicated. That is one mother of a brain embeded trellis you are dealing with and i would think very sensitive to being altered.

 

Do you think you are getting value for money from the psychotherapist and psychologist?

Do you think they are of any help?

Do you think they have one iota of a clue about what you are going through? and experiencing?

How long have you been seeing them for ?....20 yrs??

 

I have no intention of using anymore valium. I don't like the rebound anxiety that it causes.

So does this mean you will be removing it from the property?

 

The biggest anxiety is really "what do I do?"

But havent you already decided that in the above list of 10.

If this is the biggest anxiety you have then no problem make a decision and run with it.

Do you have 'to do' anything why cant you just do nothing.....and sit tight for a while and suck this up. 

You survived one day right so you can do it again and then do it again and then do it again  and ....again.

 

Look only you know what you can or cant take and what you have or havent been stable on previously.

I can only give you my opinion based on what you tell me.

 

Maybe this is a good time to soak in a jacuzzi, hug the girlfriend, take the dog for a walk, play some sudoku or quizup, step away from the computer, write some christmas cards (although it might be a bit late for that), listen to music.

 

I certainly cant tell you what will or wont happen if you do or dont do 'xyz'.

Hang in there

Wishing you strength and conviction for your decisions.

nz11

Expect recovery

[Rico]

Thank you so much Nz11.

 

I've only started seeing a psychologist/psychotherapist recently. To be honest, I can see that it can be helpful, but it has been difficult due to withdrawals and medication side effects.

 

I sort of like the idea of CBT, but I am too unstable to do any of it - and it's hard work.

 

Do you have 'to do' anything why cant you just do nothing.....and sit tight for a while and suck this up. 

 

I would love to be able to do nothing and suck this up but the mental torture has been unbearable today and I fear that another day at this dose will be worse.

 

You survived one day right so you can do it again and then do it again and then do it again  and ....again.

 

Yes, I did survive today (thanks to your help and others), I am just not sure if I can survive tomorrow at this dose of 1.625.

 

I have decided that I will go back up to 1.875mg of Zyprexa. This was the dose that I was last stable on before dropping down to 1.625 and also dropping the Epilim by 10%.

 

I will be honest - my biggest fear is that my old psychiatrist of nearly 20 years is right and that I do have a medical condition that needs to be medicated for life. At the same time, I spoke to him recently out desperation and he said (whilst I as on 1.25 zyprexa and struggling), that I can just stop it and take 5mg valium to sleep as long as I increase the lithium and Epilim. Of course this was never going to work.

 

So really, I am finding it hard to trust my decisions because I am still learning about the withdrawal process and I have a lot of fear about ending up in a public hospital. I have been severely traumatised from those places.

 

I just have a lot of fear about all this. I would like to return to work next year and be functioning.

 

Thank you for all your support Nz11.

[Bokart]

1,825 mg is still a 25% drop from 2,5 mg. It might not help enough. You have to realize how hard it is to come off of this drug, even though you have succesfully come off of it in the past. The attempt seems to be harder every consecutive attempt.

I've read a page of your thread when you were at 2,5 mg and when you reduced to 2,25 mg. I gather from your posts that you had depression at 2,5 mg, and occassional anxiety. In this post you wrote 10th Nov when you were at 2,25 mg (http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12832-rico-zyprexa-tapering/page-4#entry256685) you said you are not coping with the symptoms. For me, it always takes 4-5 days for my symptoms to appear after reduction, and from that point (for me) it will go to full strength, and then disappear after 2.5 - 4 weeks (that is, with 10% reduction; with greater reductions expect longer time and greater intensity of symptoms).

 

My personal experience has been -when I reduced from 7,5 mg to 5,6 mg in 2015- that you can have anxiety and depression even at those dose reductions. At least I had, and crying spells too, plus insomnia.

 

What dose of olanzapine were you in July when you were in the hospital? 10 mg? In your opening post of your thread you wrote you were at 2,5 mg in August. From which dose did you drop to 2,5 mg which you were in August? Consider this: I was also taking 10 mg when I was discharged and tried cold turkey after only being on it for 3 weeks. It was horrible. Then, as I wrote above, later I tried to reduce it to 5,6 mg from 7,5 mg (NOT a 10% taper, but by skipping doses), it didn't go well, and I had to updose to 15 mg (yeah, I was so anxious I updosed that much). My point is, maybe the reduction to 2,5 mg might have been the original cause for your anxiety at 2,5 mg.

 

After you reduced to 2,5 mg, you reduced from 2,5 mg to 2,25 mg, but you had depression and anxiety even before you dropped. Reduction in this point might have been a mistake, and all further reductions might have made you worse from that on. I think you should've waited before you were stable.

 

This is why I recommend you updose back to 2,5 mg, and then give yourself some time for you to stabilize. I'm really sorry I don't have time to read your thread right now and ponder what might have possibly caused you the anxiety which you experienced on 2,5 mg olanzapine (I read though that you tried Abilify at some point, maybe that caused destabilization? It has a really long half-life), but I will visit your thread when I'm less busy.

 

Updosing to 1,875 mg might help, but it might take a few days to a few weeks for a change to register (for some it might be quicker, but I'm not really knowledgeable of how fast updosing helps, maybe mods know?)

 

It might be that some of your meds or combination of them might be the cause of your symptoms, but it's highly probably that if you experience more symptoms after reducing one of them (in this case olanzapine) reducing that medicine even more will not help but instead cause you even more symptoms. Maybe you should revisit your tapering plan and try reducing other medicine(s) than olanzapine? Maybe it will be easier. Just a thought, maybe mods have some more insight into this. I only have knowledge and experience about olanzapine. (I do think that the diabetes risk of olanzapine is indeed serious, so tapering it first might still be the best decision, that is, if Epilim and/or Lithium aren't the causing you the symptoms you mentioned.)

 

Hoping your symptoms ease and wishing you merry Christmas,
Bokart

[Shep]

Rico, when you have time, please re-read your thread. In the first few pages, you were describing paradoxical symptoms, and that was why you had a desire to make these drastic cuts. 

 

If you still feel you are dealing with a paradoxical reaction, updosing is unlikely to work. I know when you're this acutely ill, it's very hard to make sense of things, but it's important to know if this is still the case, as it affects your strategy in coming off the drugs. 

[nz11]

I think Shep and Bokart have made some good insightful points.

 

Rico,

Can you confirm if you have ever taken at any stage more than 2.5 mg of zyprexa if so how much and when and how did you reduce it to 2.5

Can you confirm if at any stage you have been taking valium regularly if so at what dose and when and how did you stop it.

 

I think i must be an sa tragic if the first thing i do on Christmas morning is check in to sa.

Wishing you peace, hope and stability this Christmas morning.   

nz11

[Rico]

Hi Bokart and Shep,

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

I have just woken up after being in bed "sleeping" for 6 hours.

 

I experienced severe head pains after taking the 1.875 last night and as I was going to bed, I felt severely depressed. I thought I was dying.

 

I took a couple of panadol tablets to ease the pain.

 

I eventually slept, and have now woken up - not as distressed and mind racing as yesterday, but still not feeling well. I am sure if I tried to go back to bed, I will not be able to sleep.

 

The dose I was on originally on in July was 10mg before going to hospital. I was advised to take this because I had a meltdown after being discharged from another hospital, where I was actually medication free and had come off Lithium rapidly prior to that.

 

The first dose of 10mg was horrendous - I became suicidal, couldn't sleep, couldn't talk properly etc. I had never reacted to zyprexa like that in the past.

 

When I ended up in hospital shortly after, it was reduced to 5 then 2.5mg. This is when I joined the forum.

 

Shep, you are right, I have been experiencing paradoxical reactions with the zyprexa and that is why I have been making these cuts. The liquid version that made me toxic didn't help either.  Going down to 1.25 from 1.625 made things even worse.

 

There was however a period when I was holding on the 1.875 (before reducing to 1.625) that I was a little better. Everything fell apart a week after reducing to 1.625 and then when I started having severe head pains after taking the 1.625, followed by severe depression.

 

So, if updosing is not going to work, what do I do? Yesterday was absolute hell with all the mind racing, anxiety and dyfunction.

 

I feel like I have completely lost the ability to sleep.

 

I am really confused...zyprexa has been making me sick from day one, but trying to come off it has been making me sick too.

 

Thanks for your replies and support and Merry Christmas.

 

Rico

[Rico]

Hi Nz11,

 

i was on 10mg zyprexa initially in July as described in the previous post and have only used valium a handful of times since then.

 

Wishing you a merry christmas too.

 

Rico