Administrator Karma Posted December 30, 2011 Administrator Share Posted December 30, 2011 I agree with Alto that you probably don't want to mess with any supplements or treatments for the adrenals because you don't appear to have any of the classic symptoms. If you had adrenal fatigue you would have FATIGUE and you would have difficulty sleeping at night, difficulty falling asleep, possibly waking during the night. The 4X a day saliva cortisol test can be a good indicator of the diurnal pattern of cortisol, but NOT if you are taking antidepressants or steroids or other things that can effect cortisol. It is possible to have high cortisol for so long that the adrenals do poop out and you can end up with low cortisol. We usually see the pattern where a person has low in-range cortisol for the first two testing samples, the third may look fine, but the telltale sign is that the fourth testing sample will be elevated, either high in-range or high over-range. This is the typical pattern for adrenal fatigue. FWIW, I do treat for adrenal fatigue, but that is because I had severe fatigue that was preventing me from functioning. My treatment has been successful and I function well with good energy and good sleep patterns ... but it isn't necessarily something I would recommend to others unless they were in the same situation that I was. Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Any thoughts on endocrine testing that would be valid at this time ~ I feel at an impasse and scared ~ I have AI disorders ~ a few docs say have the testing done but then admit they wouldn't know how to interpret results The labs I've talked to havent even heard of some of the tests ordered by my doc ~ I know I have to deal with this as I'm getting weaker by the day Hope I'm not posting inappropriately ~ neuroparanoia Alto please delete post if best-i Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted December 30, 2011 Administrator Share Posted December 30, 2011 Thanks, Karma. I'd like to point out the special situation with cortisol in many people with withdrawal syndrome. I've tried to describe it here in Symptoms http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1591-withdrawal-syndrome-vs-adrenal-fatigue/ I respect your knowledge about adrenal fatigue. Please add to the topic in Symptoms if you'd like. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
spectio Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 Karma, did you mean you have been treated for adrenal fatigue or that you've treated others for it? What were your symptoms and how did you get treated for it. I need to know what true adrenal fatigue feels like. Thanks. I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
spectio Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 Alto, I'd like to put together some research on withdrawal syndrome for my acupuncturist. What would you recommend from the SA site that would be clear and as concise as there is out there. I had a prolonged discussion with him about the saliva tests and it was obvious that his interpretation of the results made no mention of ad withdrawal and I really got the feeling he was a bit defensive about the validity of the tests. It's ok. , I asked him if he would consult with the lab and see if they had any comment about the "elephant in the room", previous ad use. I kept asking him why if I was suffering adrenal fatigue I wasn't fatigued. His answer was that there's lots of variability out there. I also emphatically told him that the presentation of this "monster" is basically the same every day. Wake with intense dread, proceed to depression And then intense anxiety in the morning, waxing of symptoms in the late afternoon and evening. I also told him of my previous experience with supplements and the fact that I didn't want any more anxiety. I think he finally understood my concerns, though I'm sure he wasn't convinced about the scale of this problem. That is probably because like the rest of us, he simply doesn't know. I kept my cool and was hoping we could educate some of these people. Anyway, he did seem to get it and agreed to speak to the lab. I'm pretty sure that won't be productive either but I was grateful he took my concerns seriously. I'll give an update next week on this. Thanks I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Kudos Spectio :-) I admire your approach of asking questions that lead your acupuncturis to 'think through this' with and collectively brainstorm and synthesize info from different sources~ a think tank of sorts • In my limited study of adrenal problems I was confused by the spectrum from insuffiiency to exhaustion and symptoms that did not seem linear • I also recently learned here that treatment of hypothyroidism can lead to adrenal problems (not surprising in retrospect ~another example of treating one imbalance and creating another) I'd like to suggest that we keep track of the questions that provoke thought and cooperation from different docs (of any discipline) "The experts who have the greatest training and knowledge have the most to unlearn when ptesented with new information that does not fit into their existing paradigm" Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted December 30, 2011 Administrator Share Posted December 30, 2011 Karma, did you mean you have been treated for adrenal fatigue or that you've treated others for it? What were your symptoms and how did you get treated for it. I need to know what true adrenal fatigue feels like. Thanks. Karma, it would be great if you answered that question in the new topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1591-withdrawal-syndrome-vs-adrenal-fatigue/page__gopid__15063#entry15063 spec, you might print out these posts for your acupuncturist: One theory of antidepressant withdrawal syndrome Healy 2009 Halting SSRIs withdrawal guidelines Dr. David Healy on prolonged antidepressant withdrawal syndrome (2009) Clinicians share information about slow tapering Shelton 2006 Correspondence from Dr. Richard Shelton about prolonged withdrawal syndrome If your acupuncturist doesn't get it that it's autonomic, may be time to find someone else. Or at least not take any advice from him that's not about acupuncture. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Nadia Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I also emphatically told him that the presentation of this "monster" is basically the same every day. Wake with intense dread, proceed to depression And then intense anxiety in the morning, waxing of symptoms in the late afternoon and evening. I also told him of my previous experience with supplements and the fact that I didn't want any more anxiety. That sounds exactly like what happens to me. The only cortisol test I had was an AM blood test, and that did come out high (though not high enough for my medical doctor to be concerned... she just referred me to a psychiatrist and thought it was due to stress... she doesn't believe in AD withdrawal so many months after discontinuation). But other people on here have had those same symptoms and not tested high for cortisol... so it's a mystery. I hear there are a couple of different methods for the salivary test and one is much more reliable than the other. Still, you have the symptoms you have... what is clear is something is going on with your autonomic nervous system. Maybe sometimes it presents with detectable high cortisol and sometimes it doesn't. Maybe what the test considers "normal cortisol" is actually high cortisol for you. After all, the standards are based on averages of a lot of people, when there is a lot of variation in individuals. When you said you slept OK before, did you mean you did because you don't have trouble falling asleep? Or did you just recently develop the waking problem? I still think of myself as having sleep problems because, although I fall asleep easily 95% of the time, I wake up too early (the pattern now is after about 4 or 5 hours of sleep) and tend to have anxiety that won't let me fall back asleep. For me, it used to be the other way around. I had trouble falling asleep at night, but then could sleep 10 hours straight, no problem. And all the stuff that seemed like a dire emergency when I tried to fall asleep at night seemed unimportant in the morning. Now, it's the other way around. But at least now I can sleep more hours through than I could before and am not as exhausted all the time AND have less anxiety over all (this, compared to how I was at 8 months after meds). It can be so frustrating not to know what is going on with you or how to fix it, but the best thing you can do is trust that time will heal you. I experienced my greatest improvement when I wasn't even going to acupuncture or taking melatonin or anything. So probably it's mostly a matter of staying healthy and waiting it out. '94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever. 1/13 Best I've ever felt. 3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows. 4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time. Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted January 1, 2012 Administrator Share Posted January 1, 2012 I've found it helpful to take 2 fish oil capsules and a low-dose aspirin when I wake up in the middle of the night. (The fish oil is to coat the stomach to protect it from the aspirin.) The anti-inflammatories can be calming. This may help you get back to sleep. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
spectio Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi, Nadia, thanks so much for the personal experience you related regarding your wd. Your experiences sound very much like mine at the present moment. While I was on remeron, I slept wonderful, every night. The further I got away from the drug, the more my sleep shortened up. No, I usually don't have trouble falling asleep but routinely wake up at 4 or 5 a.m. Like you, I hardly ever fall asleep after the early a.m. awakening. Very frustrating! I really miss the days of waking too early but knowing I would get a few more hours before dawn. That early morning jolt of dread and depression are hard to navigate around. I usually just call my animals in and they purr in my ear or lick my face and that is soothing enough to get some distraction from the overwhelming dread feeling. I guess we do whatever we can to soothe ourselves. I really agree with your observation that we tend to feel better without constantly experimenting on ourselves with different supplements,Acupuncture, etc. Boy it sure is hard trying to find relief though in those days that are extra miserable. I guess baby steps for us is the prescription, in everything. Have a sweet day, Nadia! I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted January 2, 2012 Administrator Share Posted January 2, 2012 spectio, apologies if we discussed this before, have you tried blocking out the morning light? This can reduce the alerting. Love the image of you surrounded in bed with loving animals. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
spectio Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Alto, I routinely wake up in the dark( around 4 or 5), so there's no light to stimulate me. My husband wakes up for work about the same time but we're usually both laying there awake in the dark. He's waiting for his 4:45 alarm and I guess I'm waiting for my internal cortisol alarm! We're both already awake when his (very quiet cell phone vibration alarm) goes off. While I have your attention, when we're on the ad's, are our cortisol levels suppressed by the drugs? This would go a long way to explain the boomerang effect of stopping them on our adrenal glands, if that is what has happened. I'm sure you've already addressed this somewhere else, alto, but my brain is in a vice grip right now and I'm a bit "froze up". Thanks as usual alto. I''m so glad you're there. I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
Nadia Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hi, Nadia, thanks so much for the personal experience you related regarding your wd. Your experiences sound very much like mine at the present moment. While I was on remeron, I slept wonderful, every night. The further I got away from the drug, the more my sleep shortened up. No, I usually don't have trouble falling asleep but routinely wake up at 4 or 5 a.m. Like you, I hardly ever fall asleep after the early a.m. awakening. Very frustrating! I really miss the days of waking too early but knowing I would get a few more hours before dawn. That early morning jolt of dread and depression are hard to navigate around. I usually just call my animals in and they purr in my ear or lick my face and that is soothing enough to get some distraction from the overwhelming dread feeling. I guess we do whatever we can to soothe ourselves. I really agree with your observation that we tend to feel better without constantly experimenting on ourselves with different supplements,Acupuncture, etc. Boy it sure is hard trying to find relief though in those days that are extra miserable. I guess baby steps for us is the prescription, in everything. Have a sweet day, Nadia! That is wonderful about your animals! And thanks for the good wishes. I just wanted to let you know that on a few nights this week I've been able to fall back asleep for a bit. I don't sleep as deeply on the second go, but it does help. Like you, I wake up when it's still totally dark outside, but I put on my sleep mask and I think that helps for when the sun comes up. '94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever. 1/13 Best I've ever felt. 3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows. 4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time. Link to comment
spectio Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Good morning, all. I got an email from my acupuncturist yesterday . I asked him last week, after the results of the "cortisol tests" to consult with t he lab about the results. I specifically asked him how the results hold up for an individual recently in wd from AD's. His " go to guy" either didnt't get the message or, t ypical of all medical entities, chose to ignore the question and suggested other possible ( insert check or credit card here for more help) problems. The lab guy mentioned that " gut and immune issues can lead to low cortisol- cytokines affect the hPA axis with hippocampus- viruse s can suppress cortisol or a severe NT problem can suppress cortisol.". " If everything is low( cortisol,dhea), emphasize hydration, digestive efficiency, HCL/ enzymes/ probiotics, etc.". Also on their tests for cortisol, they came up with an elevated melatonin value and commented. " melatonin elevated- some pesticides increase this in the gut by a bit.". The lab guy ended his letter with a spiel about doing a NT questionnaire, and starting with 5htp and tyrosine. Been there, done that. Boy, I'm fed up with the free market system. Whenever there's the potential to make money, thought, reason, and empathy go flying out the window. I haven't had a chance to look over the NT questionnaire. When I do, I will be seeking your feedback on it, too. Anyway, pretty frustrating. What are your thoughts? I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Good morning, all. I got an email from my acupuncturist yesterday . I asked him last week, after the results of the "cortisol tests" to consult with t he lab about the results. I specifically asked him how the results hold up for an individual recently in wd from AD's. His " go to guy" either didnt't get the message or, t ypical of all medical entities, chose to ignore the question and suggested other possible ( insert check or credit card here for more help) problems. The lab guy mentioned that " gut and immune issues can lead to low cortisol- cytokines affect the hPA axis with hippocampus- viruse s can suppress cortisol or a severe NT problem can suppress cortisol.". " If everything is low( cortisol,dhea), emphasize hydration, digestive efficiency, HCL/ enzymes/ probiotics, etc.". Also on their tests for cortisol, they came up with an elevated melatonin value and commented. " melatonin elevated- some pesticides increase this in the gut by a bit.". The lab guy ended his letter with a spiel about doing a NT questionnaire, and starting with 5htp and tyrosine. Been there, done that. Boy, I'm fed up with the free market system. Whenever there's the potential to make money, thought, reason, and empathy go flying out the window. I haven't had a chance to look over the NT questionnaire. When I do, I will be seeking your feedback on it, too. Anyway, pretty frustrating. What are your thoughts? "Melatonin elevated" seems like red flag flying in a hurricane(Forgive me if all of this is basic knowledge to you) Melatonin is what serotonin converts to and is hormone used by/produced by pineal gland~ I've never had such detailed testing but am going to fwd this to my endocrinologist I've pondered the possibility that we've been existing in a subclinical serotonin syndrome for many years ~alsoanyone know what taper protocol is used for serotonin syndrome What type of test was this (Q) Blood /saliva/urine Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
spectio Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hey, barb, thanks for the quick reply. Can you further enlighten me about the melatonin, serotonin connection. I may have had knowledge of that at one time, but thanks to cortisol surges, those particular brain cells have gone away (hopefully not for good). The test was a saliva test. Would you like the cortisol values too to run by your endocrinologist . The acupuncturist says that they are all stage 3 adrenal fatigue indicators. I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
Nadia Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Good morning, all. I got an email from my acupuncturist yesterday . I asked him last week, after the results of the "cortisol tests" to consult with t he lab about the results. I specifically asked him how the results hold up for an individual recently in wd from AD's. His " go to guy" either didnt't get the message or, t ypical of all medical entities, chose to ignore the question and suggested other possible ( insert check or credit card here for more help) problems. The lab guy mentioned that " gut and immune issues can lead to low cortisol- cytokines affect the hPA axis with hippocampus- viruse s can suppress cortisol or a severe NT problem can suppress cortisol.". " If everything is low( cortisol,dhea), emphasize hydration, digestive efficiency, HCL/ enzymes/ probiotics, etc.". Also on their tests for cortisol, they came up with an elevated melatonin value and commented. " melatonin elevated- some pesticides increase this in the gut by a bit.". The lab guy ended his letter with a spiel about doing a NT questionnaire, and starting with 5htp and tyrosine. Been there, done that. Boy, I'm fed up with the free market system. Whenever there's the potential to make money, thought, reason, and empathy go flying out the window. I haven't had a chance to look over the NT questionnaire. When I do, I will be seeking your feedback on it, too. Anyway, pretty frustrating. What are your thoughts? That all sounds pretty suspicious to me... strange that your cortisol would be low but you'd have early waking. I have no idea how this all works, but the answer from the lab raises red flags for me. (Did you even get your DHEA measured? Or was that just a generic response?) Maybe you should consult with a different doctor? I also had a bunch of lab work done when I was first freaking out about what was happening to me. I think it's important to rule out problems like thyroid disease, menopause, Lyme's, sleep apnea, etc. But like you say, lots of doctors are out there to make a buck, or they tend to see the same problem no matter what if that is what they are trained to treat (e.g. adrenal fatigue). There seems to be this divide between the allopathic doctors, who just tell you "you're fine" or send you to a psychiatrist because they think it's all in your head, and the naturopathic and "alternative medicine" doctors, who sometimes maybe over-diagnose. In any case, what you are experiencing sounds like classic withdrawal, so if a regular doctor says you're healthy, I would just wait it out. If you hadn't ever taken ADs and were having these sorts of symptoms, then I'd say, keep searching and get to the bottom of it! '94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever. 1/13 Best I've ever felt. 3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows. 4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time. Link to comment
Whatever Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Regarding headaches, I suffer from chronic headaches and see a neurologist. Since I refuse to take pmeds for headaches, such as Neurontin and Topomax he has me on a natural supplement regimen. It takes three months to work, but it helps: Magnesium Oxide 400 mg twice a day B-2 200 mg twice a day Petadolex 75 mg twice a day The Petadolex is only available online. It is butternut root. My MD swears he has no finacial relationship with the company, but says that it is the only reliable source if butternut since it is made in Germany where vitamins and herbal supplements are regulated. Hope this helps. Withdrew cold turkey from six medications: Celexa, Zyprexa, Depakote, Ativan, Ambien and Phentermine in 2002. It has been 10 years since I told polypharmacy to take a hike and have joined this forum to let others know that success is possible and to hopefully save people from experiencing the suffering that I did under psychiatric "care". MY STORY "TENSION is when we try to be who we think we should be, RELAXATION is when we are who we really are." Link to comment
Whatever Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I needto make a correction it is BUTTERBUR root not butternut. I am on a mobile device which doesn't make typing or editing easy. Withdrew cold turkey from six medications: Celexa, Zyprexa, Depakote, Ativan, Ambien and Phentermine in 2002. It has been 10 years since I told polypharmacy to take a hike and have joined this forum to let others know that success is possible and to hopefully save people from experiencing the suffering that I did under psychiatric "care". MY STORY "TENSION is when we try to be who we think we should be, RELAXATION is when we are who we really are." Link to comment
spectio Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks, Nadia and Whatever for your replys. Nadia, I totally agree with your suspicions. They did test my dhea. The numbers ate meaningless to me. My Dhea came back 1.44. Normals are 2.00-10.00. They also came up with a cortisol/ dhea ratio of 12.0 normals are 5-6. The ratio meaning I had more cortisol than dhea . "pregnenelone, the precursor of all other steroid hormones, is diverted to produce cortisol. . . As pregnenelone is diverted to cortisol, dhea depletion begins. The result is a elevated cortisol to dhea ratio. Normals are 5-6:1. I agree with you completely when you say just take it day to day and don't mess with the body's attempt to heal. Whatever, I will look into that combination of minerals, etc for the headaches. Did you have any problem with the magnesium. Any problems with diarrhea or stomach upsets? I also must congratulate you for your triumph over the pharmaceutical industry madness. What an inspiration you are! Thank you so much for joining us here. We really need you survivors. Your stories bouy us through another day when sometimes the only respite we have is a hopeful word or two. You have given us many! thanks so much! I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Spectio~ I don't have an answer for you as far as levels but briefly Tryptophan--->serotonin ---->melatonin in the pineal gland Check out Charly G's antidepressantfacts page on Pineal gland near bottom ~ This is just a hunch but if a test showed elevated melatonin that*seems*like the metabolic system /enzymes may be involved in serotonin/melatonin buildup/not clearing … I'm free -associating in my thinking --ido not know specifics ~the elevated melatonin jumped out at me ~i will try to get feedback from my endocrine about this but I'm not sure he even tests for that type of thing and always uses urine or blood as far as I know ~ If I find out anymore I will certainly keep you posted Barb Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted January 4, 2012 Administrator Share Posted January 4, 2012 Guys, I see you trying to interpret test results that might have been taken through invalid methods. You will not be able to make any sense of them. The response from the lab guy also is absurd. spec, please stop trying to get an answer out of this stuff. It seems you trust your acupuncturist and I have no doubt he's trying to help you, but this route is a dead end. Many of us have gone to alternative practitioners and had similar experiences. They'll diagnose you with the kitchen sink and throw every oddball treatment they can think of at you, hoping something sticks. Please, save your time, money, and neurological health by just saying no to this nonsense. Alto, I routinely wake up in the dark( around 4 or 5), so there's no light to stimulate me. My husband wakes up for work about the same time but we're usually both laying there awake in the dark. He's waiting for his 4:45 alarm and I guess I'm waiting for my internal cortisol alarm! We're both already awake when his (very quiet cell phone vibration alarm) goes off. While I have your attention, when we're on the ad's, are our cortisol levels suppressed by the drugs? This would go a long way to explain the boomerang effect of stopping them on our adrenal glands, if that is what has happened. I'm sure you've already addressed this somewhere else, alto, but my brain is in a vice grip right now and I'm a bit "froze up". Thanks as usual alto. I''m so glad you're there. spec, how dark is it? If there's any light at all coming through the window, it's not dark enough. Our eyelids sense even a small change in light. This is why I've been suggesting blackout curtains and shades. It might also be that you sense your husband's wakening and you are waking up, too. I don't believe ADs suppress cortisol levels, they suppress the alerting system (locus coerulus) in the brain. Withdrawal can cause disinhibition of the locus coerulus, the "fight or flight" center. It sends signals that cause the adrenals to up production of cortisol and adrenaline. Regarding headaches, I suffer from chronic headaches and see a neurologist. Since I refuse to take pmeds for headaches, such as Neurontin and Topomax he has me on a natural supplement regimen. It takes three months to work, but it helps: Magnesium Oxide 400 mg twice a day .... Magnesium alone can be quite effective for headaches, it may be this is what is helping you, Whatever. At any rate, good to see the neurologist figured out how to help you without meds. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
spectio Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Alto, thanks for setting me straight. I really didn't give much credence to any of the info from the acupuncturist or his "lab guy". I guess I was just trying to figure out how much any of these guys know about WD syndrome. Not surprising, nothing. Oh, the lab guy is a clinical nutritionist, which is great if you have a nutritional problem! As an aside, if the locus coerulus is doing rebound after stopping these drugs, has anybody found anything that will bring levels of norepinephrine down. I'm sure there are drugs, but do the same suggestions work for both cortisol and norepinephrine as far as just be careful with using anything? I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted January 4, 2012 Administrator Share Posted January 4, 2012 We have discussions of cortisol fighters in the Symptoms and What Helps forum. Techniques such as mindful meditation also calm the alerting reaction and bring down cortisol. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Nadia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm persisting with taking chromium and Seriphos (phosphorylated serine) for high cortisol. I have no idea if it really helps, but I've been doing better the past few days, and it coincides with me restarting the Seriphos (this time I'm just taking two capsules a day, one at bedtime and one when I wake up early). Except... I think you said you had a bad reaction to that? I think too much of anything might cause a paradoxical reaction. The magnesium baths can really help me, too, as long as I don't do them too frequently. I try to save them for crises. '94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever. 1/13 Best I've ever felt. 3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows. 4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time. Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted January 5, 2012 Administrator Share Posted January 5, 2012 If you mean the Seriphos, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/871-reducing-cortisol-levels-with-supplements/page__gopid__15356#entry15356 This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
spectio Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Okay, everyone, going through yet another rough patch here. After spending the last couple weeks with increasing nervousness, dizzyness, headaches, and nausea, I was really starting to wonder if I'm developing another problem or at least causing an existing problem to get worse. I've had hypertension for about as long as I was on the remeron. I always wondered if being on remeron caused me to develop hypertension. But, the indisputable fact is that both my mother and aunt had hbp too so I'm pretty sure it's a separate problem. The trouble is, I've had this horrible anxiety almost every day now for THREE years. That of all my symptoms, hardly ever subsides. So, I've noticed my bp creeping up the last couple of days. I take 30 mg of lisinopril but at one time I took 40mg. I reduced a couple of months back to 20 mg then back up to 30. At the time I was just trying everything to see if maybe the lisinopril was part of the problem. I have gone back up to 40 mg. I know when my bp creeps up, it too causes intense anxiety. At least I think so. That's the quandary. With this high of anxiety( from the withdrawal?), I really expect my bp to eventually go up. I've made an appt. with a gp tomorrow to give me a good physical and maybe a referral to an endocrinologist. I can't stand feeling this way all day, every day. I really am apprehensive about seeing any doctor but I've got to talk to someone. After just two days of 40 mg lisinopril, the headaches and dizzyness are better but the anxiety is just as strong. I'd appreciate any feedback, guys. I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted January 10, 2012 Administrator Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes, I do think withdrawal-caused anxiety can increase blood pressure. I found acupuncture to be extraordinarily helpful in reducing blood pressure and pulse rate. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Nadia Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Okay, everyone, going through yet another rough patch here. Hi Spectio, I don't have any answers, but I just wanted to say I'm so sorry you're having a rough time. Anxiety is the worst! I totally understand your wanting to go to a doctor and rule other things out. I already got a full checkup and STILL sometimes think they must have missed something! Or, there must be something they can do! All I can say is it can't hurt to get a full physical to rule things out. Then at least you can "relax" knowing you covered your bases. And who knows... some people on here have found out they have Lyme's disease, or sleep apnea, or thyroid problems. Withdrawal is sometimes just one factor or complication thrown in the mix. If it turns out you're totally healthy, then I hope you find something that helps you get through this. Light exercise and meditation can't hurt (which reminds me, I have to get back on track with the meditation thing). '94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever. 1/13 Best I've ever felt. 3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows. 4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time. Link to comment
spectio Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hi ,Nadia, so glad to hear from you and I really appreciate your comments. I just wonder what the order of things is here? Did the constant anxiety cause a rise in the bp( which I really fully expected), or did the hike in bp cause the anxiety? I'm not real hopeful about the drs appt but I have to start somewhere. I really dread talking to the gp about wd syndrome and the causes as we in the forum see it. I anticipate that blank, uneasy look all medical drs give you when you offer up new info that's not in their textbooks. Do you have bp problems, Nadia. I.'d really be interested in how many of us have problems with bp, considering the prolonged anxiety. How is your depression? I hope your depression lightens up enough to start meditating again. I look forward to the time when I don't have that am anxiety during my morning meditating session. The depression also makes meditating tough. It's heaven when I have a meditating time that's lightly influenced by anxiety or depression. Evenings are usually best. If I were you, depending on when your symptoms are better, to start med then. Nadia, thanks for being there. We must hang in there . What choice do we have? Talk to you soon! I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck. Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted January 12, 2012 Administrator Share Posted January 12, 2012 Normally, my blood pressure was low-normal. Withdrawal syndrome increased it quite a bit, at times 30-40 points. It's now back to low-normal. spectio, I would say it's likely withdrawal syndrome has increased both your blood pressure and neuro-anxiety. Acupuncture can be good for both. Going on blood pressure medications adds another layer of complexity to your drug and nervous system situation. They also cause physical dependency. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Nadia Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hi ,Nadia, so glad to hear from you and I really appreciate your comments. I just wonder what the order of things is here? Did the constant anxiety cause a rise in the bp( which I really fully expected), or did the hike in bp cause the anxiety? I'm not real hopeful about the drs appt but I have to start somewhere. I really dread talking to the gp about wd syndrome and the causes as we in the forum see it. I anticipate that blank, uneasy look all medical drs give you when you offer up new info that's not in their textbooks. Do you have bp problems, Nadia. I.'d really be interested in how many of us have problems with bp, considering the prolonged anxiety. How is your depression? I hope your depression lightens up enough to start meditating again. I look forward to the time when I don't have that am anxiety during my morning meditating session. The depression also makes meditating tough. It's heaven when I have a meditating time that's lightly influenced by anxiety or depression. Evenings are usually best. If I were you, depending on when your symptoms are better, to start med then. Nadia, thanks for being there. We must hang in there . What choice do we have? Talk to you soon! I bet it could be a feedback loop between the high BP and the anxiety as well, one feeding into the other. I personally have always had really low blood pressure. Like 95 over 50 something is normal for me, and many times it is quite a bit lower... 85 over 48, for ex. That's in the middle of the day, even after activity! But right now, for example, it's 107 over 68. That was unheard of for me before. I've only checked it one other time since my anxiety stuff and it was about the same. So, though I have low blood pressure still compared to most people, it's high for me right now apparently. That's one example of how it's hard to gauge what is "normal" for any given person if you don't know their history. I hear you with the withdrawal syndrome. I've gotten the dismissing stare as well. Then the referral to a psychiatrist. I'm too scared to go to a psychiatrist because my last experience was so demeaning and horrible. Maybe you could go armed with some of the scientific literature that Alto has recommended. Or maybe you could just not mention it at all, just tell them you want to make sure you are healthy. Are there any other acupuncture docs you could go to for the high BP? '94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever. 1/13 Best I've ever felt. 3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows. 4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time. Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've also had hbp with anxiety • I thought that hbp had no symptoms but I disagree with that because I can feel it even when not really anxious •it is a vicious circle Mitral Valve Prolapse Syndrome causes high anxiety and panic also ~not commonly known by docs Q: what do you think of not telling the doc about wd up front ~let them do their exam without the psych bias ~then tell later if you feel it necessary or if doc seems open (and doesn't recommend ADs for your 'anxiety/depression/pickyourdiagnosis') I'm wondering what good or bad that info is serving when presented up front • most docs have no idea how they have effected our cardiometabolic system and think half-life means the effects should be long gone The invalidation factor is cumulative IMHO Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
InNeedOfHope Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Regarding BP, I have always had lowish bp and when i have reduced too fast it has gone up to normalish figures, but to me this feels not normal. In fact, you can see the veins in the back of my hand and arms stand up and out.I don't feel right with 'normal' BP, i feel jittery and get palpitations. When i have slowed down my WD my bp has gone back down to lowish figures and I feel calm and 'normal. I addressed this with a doctor in hospital and they said they no idea why this happened. But it makes sense if you normal body composition means you have lowish BP and then you withdraw and experience constriction then your BP will go up. I try not to panic about that particular thing anymore and hope it will return to normal given time. Incidentally my blood sugar rocketed at higher doses, now it is nearer normal. I wonder how many people end up on diabetic meds when it is a temporary issue? I have read that people who naturally want to reduce their BP often use magnesium, but not sure how it works if you are sensitive to supplements. I read an article that people with depression/anxiety often have sub clinical thyroid issues and one of the symptoms of that is low BP which sort of makes sense if your body is slow at distributing nutrients around your body, maybe it is these deficiences which manifest as anxiety/depression. So I guess a long term fix when out of WD would be to supplement diet and fix any underlying issues...though that is easier said than done. Sept 2010 - Citalopram 1 day Sept 2010 - Zopliclone for ten weeks (paranoia ended a couple of months after coming off this and sleep settled down again until the last couple of months) Ocober 2010 - Cymbalta 30mg November 2010 - Cymbalta 60mg February 2011 - 60mg to 30 mg (lasted 10 days)reinstated 60mg March 2011 - Took 2 60mg tablets on one evening in error - paralysis of face, back of head, shoulder, stabbing in right kidney, lost 30% of hearing) March - June 2011 went down quickly 1mg a day until I got stuck at 25mg, went up to 27mg, because couldn't breath. 26th June - 26mg 3rd July - 25mg 17th July - 24mg 24th July - 23mg 7th Aug - began reducing by a bead every couple of days or so went well at first then hit a wall 24th October - now on 18.5mg. Since the kidney infection at start of September, have been in constant pain and anxiety, no let up. Given Ciprofloxacin. 8th Jan 2012 17.8mg (currently reducing 0.2mg a week) 8th Jan 2012 17.6mg last reduction was 6 days ago. 15th Jan 17.4mg 21st Jan 17.2mg Link to comment
Nadia Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I read an article that people with depression/anxiety often have sub clinical thyroid issues and one of the symptoms of that is low BP which sort of makes sense if your body is slow at distributing nutrients around your body, maybe it is these deficiences which manifest as anxiety/depression. So I guess a long term fix when out of WD would be to supplement diet and fix any underlying issues...though that is easier said than done. That is really interesting... do you remember where you found that article? I have sometimes suspected I have some kind of thyroid issue, and I've always had really low blood pressure (and higher now, which I experience in the same way you describe). But I've been checked several times and they said I was fine. My sister had hyperthyroidism, my grandmother had some kind of thyroid problem, and my mom has hypothyroidism. (Sorry to hijack your topic with this, Spectio!) Anyway, about high BP in relation to anxiety: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/anxiety/AN01086 Also: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/stress-and-high-blood-pressure/HI00092 '94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever. 1/13 Best I've ever felt. 3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows. 4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time. Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The blood sugar comment is interesting too as SS/NRIs are associated with diabetes How did you measure that ( Q) Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
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